Party Buffing/Party Entitlement

[Critter]

Without going on a long-winded story about how my mindset drifted into this style of thinking, I'll just say I don't have the most tactically sound party, nor do we have much finesse on much of anything...

My group has been playing together awhile now. Naturally, some of us have been playing quite a long time compared to some others. There are six players, also.

Last game session, after a series of completely grueling combats equaling 9 hours of real life combat totaling 3.5 minutes of in-game time(note, that was abnormal for our group, usually there's a lot more story, that was just how the dice fell that night that led to those situations chaining off each other) one big question I'd been hoping to avoid as the party Wizard and only Arcane caster, popped up.

Why didn't you buff us? It came up again tonight as well.

Currently, the party consists of:
Human Wizard - Conjurer 9
Human Fighter 4/Rogue 5
Human Ranger (Archer) 8
Dwarf Fighter 8
Human Druid (caster focused) 9
Human Cleric (caster focused) 9

Our party can't work well together at all. While plans may be thrown together quickly, it doesn't take long for someone (admittedly, a lot of times it's the Dwarf) to go off and do their own thing without paying any attention to consequences and effects on other party members.

While, yes, I could buff and perhaps make a fight go by faster I generally find myself focusing more on crowd control alongside our Druid (he and I have wonderful synergy and communication). The 9 hour combat night, for example, I ended up coming near death (as low as -9) three times and was only saved by having an Imp. Familiar with hands and at-will Invisibility.

I admit, it sounds selfish that when it comes up that I'm expected to buff, my initial knee-jerk response is generally along the lines of "Who are you to dictate my spellbook to me?" I pointed out tonight that, unlike our Druid and Cleric, I spent my entire starting wealth on books and scrolls and the ink to get everything written in. The Rog/Fig asked me tonight if I had Greater Magic Weapon. I actually did, at one point, but my car got broken into and my bag stolen with my character sheet, so I had to remake my character on the fly before a game and apparently forgot to pick that back up again. He shrugged, and said next time we're in town he'd grab the scroll for me as long as I didn't mind popping that on his fancy new Adamantine Short Sword we looted not long ago.

I found that acceptable, personally, and a decent compromise. The Rog/Fig also did chime in during that discussion pointing out that when a fight does break out, everyone runs off in a different direction and that it seems to be a waste to say, cast Haste, when everyone spends their first turn running 20-30ft in different directions.

Is it wrong of me to think that? Even though I'm level 9 with a 22 Int, my spell slots are still fairly limited and I genuinely feel that my actions and presence on the battlefield is far better used being an offensive/controlling force.

Even though I'm holding my ground, I still can't help but feel the voice in the back of my head poking me to be more party friendly. At the same time, I can't help but point out that I exist to be more than a group buff resource especially when things that members ask for can generally be found in a spell or potion.

"The fight would have gone faster if we had a Haste"
Don't think it's my responsibility that party members can't bring their A-game to the table.
"Why should we buy potions when you can cast the spell?"
Why should I invest resources/time/actions into your output when you clearly can't be bothered to do the same?

Advice? Tips? Am I being somewhat of a ****?

Thanks!

[eggynack]

I don't think you're doing anything particularly wrong. A good battlefield control spell is basically a debuff anyway, so you're doing your job of helping out the fighters. The numbers add up in different ways, and what particular spell you use can change the combat a lot, but there's not that substantial of a difference between getting all of your enemies stuck in a cloud, thus allowing your team to divide and conquer, and casting haste on the team, thus allowing your team to kill them faster. The good thing about greater magic weapon, though, is that it lasts hours hours per level, so it can easily take you through a whole day of encounters. Clouds generally only work for one encounter, but they usually have a higher level of effectiveness. You might want to consider looking into other long duration buffs, though there's no onus to. It's your prerogative what spells you cast, especially if you think that your choices are going to be more effective.

Anyways, I think a problem you might be running up against is the tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293). It seems like the low tiered members of your party, the fighter/rogue, the ranger, and the fighter, are becoming irrelevant compared to the high tiered members of your party, which is everyone else. If you don't buff them, they're basically irrelevant, and even with buffs, they're still pretty irrelevant. Your mighty clouds end combat, and the fighters just do the clean up. Ultimately, it comes down to an out of game issue, which you should probably resolve with conversation, rather than tailoring your spells to what your party wants.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd normally come down heavily on the side of "be a team player".
Since you're the only one who can cast haste you should do it, especially considering you have so many martial characters in the party.
On the other hand, if your Fighters can't be bothered to consider the team in their strategies you're almost required to focus your spell slots onto you own survival first instead of casting buffs that don't directly help keep you alive.

I suggest a compromise: Have your fighters buy the buffs they want you to cast like your Rogue did, along with a Pearl of Power of the corresponding spell slot.
So, if they want you to cast haste, they pool some of their money to get a scroll of it for you to learn from and Pearl of Power (3rd). Being in range when combat starts is up to them.

The other way would be to address your concerns about party cohesion OOC and "reward" good behaviour with the buffs they want.

[GilesTheCleric]

Why aren't they asking the cleric to buff? Clerics are one of the best buffers in the game, and can do so with minimal investment, unlike a wizard, because they don't have to spend the funds on ink etc.

If your cleric player is doing anything other than casting streamers or wall of x or holy word or some other really effective offensive spell, then maybe you could point out to them that their actions aren't very efficient. Even if they're focused on casting, righteous might and divine power turn them into a melee beast with just two spells. Popping a chained bear's endurance/bull's strength or the mass versions of those spells are good for everyone. Also, have them check out some of the battlefield spells in HoB if things are getting to a large scale.

Eggynack is entirely correct. If you and the druid are doing things like grease and entangle, then you're helping the party as a whole just as much as a buff would. It's possible to buff up noncasters enough to make them very survivable and killing machines, but that's generally not as efficient.

Spending some time with your party, IC and maybe OOC to go over tactics would benefit your group greatly, it seems. Doing it IC will make it seem less controlling or condescending.

[Zanos]

Do you have rod of chain spell? A lesser one(up to spell level 3) is 14k, MIC. 3/day cast as spell as if chained. Buff everyone's weapons every day basically all day for a single spell slot. I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask the weapon reliant folks to split some of the cost considering they benefit from it far more than you do, and it's cheaper than actually buying an enchanted weapon. That only solves one problem, though.

Buffing is only one role of a wizard, and battlefield control is probably what they're best at. A well placed control spell can keep dangerous enemies out of an encounter for five or six rounds. Judging by your description of the combat and assuming you're fairly decent and picking proper control spells, the party would be extremely dead if certain threats weren't held at bay. Throwing down a haste is good and is usually something i like to keep one cast of per day, but it's not doing anything if your party spends the nine round duration not full-attacking, and it certainly isn't keeping anyone alive.
Haste is nice because you can buff pretty much anyone, but most wizard buffs are single target and must be tailored reactively(protection from x, resist elements, etc.), which is bad.

If there are any buffs you can throw down before encounters with decent durations and you aren't, you probably aren't doing as much for the party as you could. Expecting you to use in combat actions to buff one person at a time as opposed to shutting down 3-4 enemies for three rounds with a solid fog is idiotic and might have caused a TPK.

This sounds like an out of game issue though. Something tells me that the Dwarf is the kind of player who just runs in without thinking, and that just needs to be worked on in general.

TL;DR: Buff before combat if you can, your party is not entitled to buffs as long as you are contributing in some other meaningful way.

[Critter]

I agree on the whole "being a team player". That's the biggest reason why I'm sort of struggling with this. Hell, I even got Extend Spell for this specific reason.

Last game we played (we took a hiatus from this current game, and someone else DM'd) I ended up playing your standard core-only (that's how we play) Battle Cleric. The party Barbarian (who is the Druid player) bought a Wand of Enlarge Person with his starting wealth, and at the start of the game handed it to me. After that point, I would jointly buff both of us whenever possible and the death toll between our two characters far outstretched the rest of the party combined, who would go off and do their own thing.

During that time, I kept point out how buffing and cohesion lead to the effectiveness of those two characters. Problem is, that partially stuck with the group. The part that stuck with the group is the part currently I'm up against.

But yes, my own survival has had to come first and foremost lately, especially as the CR is starting to creep up and the DM is getting more creative with his encounters. I don't entirely agree with the tier system being a problem in this group, only because our DM is the "old guy" of the group who has been playing D&D since before I was born. He seems to have a knack for creating challenging yet not overwhelming fights that are pretty balanced to our party setup.

The Pearl of Power would be ideal. Thing is, at this point in time we're doing a part of the Living Greyhawk campaign and as it stands, the poor Duchy of Geoff is a war zone and we're currently losing the war. The DM has all the demographics setup and stays pretty true to GP limits and item availability in this time of massive warfare. While it's not impossible to get said items, you may not get them right away. He's incredibly detailed because he's basically playing the world events out around us. He could tell you the percentage break down of levels and jobs of all the people in a town. After a major battle taking place elsewhere in the Duchy he updates the percentages after figuring out the casualties and whatnot. He's got a fantastic setup for getting all this worked out, so when items aren't available I don't feel it's him being unfair in the slightest, I feel it's a part of him creating a realistic and dynamic world.

[eggynack]

I don't really see how the tier system could not be involved in this one. If the other members of the party aren't irrelevant without your assistance, what's the problem? They get to do the hitting thing, and you get to do the fog machine thing, and everyone's happy. You're really starting to hit the breaking point at your level, especially in core. If the problem is that you're not ending combats quickly enough, tell the druid to start casting animal growth, such that it hits his animal companion, as well as something he summoned on the previous turn. Now that's a buff spell that's worth casting.

So, I guess there are three theoretical issues that could be causing the problem. The first, which I think is what you're aiming for, is that the party feels that they are owed buffs for some reason. This would be completely independent of what's actually effective in combat. The second, is that your BFC's are slowing down the combat, so your party desires a more proactive approach. The third possibility is the one I put forth, which is that your party members are irrelevant without buff spells, which seems probable no matter what their issue actually is. It'd be one thing if you were acting suboptimally, but it doesn't look like you are.

[Thrudd]

Hey, not every wizard is the "buffing sort". Just tell your party "I don't swing that way" :smallwink: "Dammit Jim, I'm a conjurer, not a transmuter!"
Jokes aside, it's true. Wizards are a diverse lot, the outcome of your adventures doesn't and shouldn't depend on whether you decided to pick a few specific spells. What if transmutation had been your restricted school? What would they say then? Be a team player and do your best to coordinate in combat (sounds like you are), but stick with what you like to play.

[Spuddles]

Tell them if they want to be hasted, they buy the scroll and you'll cast in it combat.

[TypoNinja]

Teamwork is nice, and I've got a Mystic Thurge I'm playing mostly as support/party buff and enjoying it.

Then again, you aren't their personal buff bot. Nothing obligates you to buff them, they are playing the characters they wanted, you are certainly entitled to play what you want.

Your fellow party members probably haven't considered it from that point. OOC the point is to have fun, if that's not what you want to spend your time doing, why would you? Buff when it seems like a good idea, use something else if it seems like a better idea.

[Fizban]

The game is designed assuming a group of fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard, all working together in harmony. This includes the assumption that the spellcasters will be providing buffs for the abilities that fighters and rogues don't have, such as flight, freedom of movement, and energy resistance, as well as spells that just make you better like haste. That's actually why you have so many spell slots: the game assumes you're spending a lot of them buffing the non-magics into some-magics. A team that moves as one unit with one mind is always the most efficient and powerful. And that's not how the game goes when you've actually got 4 different people playing.

So yeah, they all run off in different directions with no plan whatsoever and you are in no way obligated to waste your time dealing with them. If they can learn to stay put until your turn so you can actually cast on them without wasting half the spell and then make use of the effect then you might prepare some buffs. If you want to go full ultimatum then there's the wizard's version of the paladin: do what I say or no buffs for you.

Alternatively, bring some long duration buffs and just throw them down in the morning and say "there, I buffed you now shut up." Evidently I'm feeling antagonistic.

[Nohwl]

if you really wanted to buff them before the fight, you could look into the war weaver prestige class. requirements are really easy to meet, and it only loses one caster level. take 5 levels in it (if you asked the dm to let you rebuild and he let you, you are a high enough level that you'd have everything with early entry). spend a move action to buff the party at the start of the fight, and then you'd be free to do whatever you wanted.

there was even a handbook for the prc here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0)

[Waker]

if you really wanted to buff them before the fight, you could look into the war weaver prestige class. requirements are really easy to meet, and it only loses one caster level. take 5 levels in it (if you asked the dm to let you rebuild and he let you, you are a high enough level that you'd have everything with early entry). spend a move action to buff the party at the start of the fight, and then you'd be free to do whatever you wanted.

there was even a handbook for the prc here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0)

What this man said is true. War Weaver is an excellent PrC to look into for your problem. Being able to drop 4 spells up to 5th level on the entire party as a Move Action is fantastic. Not only will it give you greater spell efficiency since one spell can affect everyone, thus freeing up precious slots, but afterwards you can then spend the rest of the battle focusing on BFC spells. Look into it and if possible, ask your DM to allow retraining.

[Critter]

Ok, some real life stuff got in the way and got a bit distracted from following up on this thread after posting it :smallsmile:

Anyway, we had another session last night. We generally play once every two weekends due to schedules and whatnot. Well, another couple of instances happened that really got under my skin that I feel are pretty much related to this topic still.

So the same party is running around out in the woods needing to investigate a huge sinkhole. We had actually stumbled across this sinkhole earlier, and it was something like 60ft deep. I decided to cast Levitate on myself and follow the Fighter/Rogue down as she climbed down the sinkhole and trying to set up ropes. Needless to say, it was a bit of a mess for everyone to get down considering no one but the Rogue had ranks in Climb. The Cleric summoned something to essentially ride down with (an Eagle I think?) and the Druid Wildshaped, but several people fell and it got rough.

After the Fighter fell and had to be rescued from sinking further into all this loose dirt, I decide to float back up and offer the Cleric my ring of Feather Fall. The first word out of another players mouth? "Why didn't you give us that in the first place?"

While he made a pretty valid point, I looked at him and pointed out "Why didn't you simply ask?" and the issue dissipated.

So we get inside the little underground tomb thing that was exposed due to the sinkhole and we start to climb in. I had my familiar inside looking around before anyone jumped in (he has wings, darkvision, and invisibility at will, so he's pretty useful). It was a 10x10 empty room, so the Rogue hops in and sees some murals and symbols. I float in and decided to assist. The DM gives us a heads up that the floor seems a bit odd, and perhaps moves. So, you know, pretty big red flag there.

Seeing the puzzle right away, I point out to the Rogue where I think he should start searching, since there wasn't a clear door. I send my familiar to assist the Rogue with searching, and the Rogue finds a lock on the opposite side of the wall I pointed to and triggers it. Naturally, the floor gives out and the Rogue and my familiar tumble down under the floor because the floor swing out from underneath them, and slammed shut right after. I wasn't in much danger as I was Levitating.

Long story short, the Rogue is trying to climb up a 50ft. slope under this trap (he Reflex saved the poisoned spikes at the bottom). I'm looking at my spellbook trying to see what I have available that could help. The only thing I have, in my inventory, is a scroll of Wall of Stone I've been waiting to get written into my spellbook but haven't had the time. So we concoct a plan where the Ranger triggers the trap with a rope tied around him and as the trap swings open I cast the spell and more or less create a new floor with a 4ft hole in the center of the floor, essentially breaking the trap by forcing it stuck open. I then have my familiar fly up, I cast Fly on him and deliver the spell down to the Rogue who flies up and rejoins us.

"Sure would have been nice to have that spell getting down that sinkhole."

I let that comment slide, as I was a bit grumpy over using that scroll but basically having no choice, I was afraid I'd get a bit too pissy with the other players.

The night ended without a single thanks from anyone about avoiding that trap and saving the Rogue. Three times in discussion over it, I pointed out I used that scroll as a one-shot item and really was looking forward to having that in my spellbook for future usage. The Druid player sent me a text at one point saying he'd pitch in and help buy a new one, eventually the Rogue did too. I thanked them for the consideration, but I told them I'd much prefer if the party came to a consensus about that at the table, and at a group, realizing I essentially spent, what, 1,125gp of my own cash to bypass a problem?

I hate feeling like I'm putting a price on assisting a party member like that, but at the same time the complete lack of discussion or caring about it bothers me.

At one point down in that dungeon thing, the Rogue wanted to knock out part of a wall to check for something. He asked the Dwarf Fighter if he could use his +2 Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe. The player said hell no, use your own stuff for that. I came really, really close to recounting the conversation over my Feather Fall ring where players got mad at me because I didn't naturally give away my stuff to them. I didn't bring that up, because again, I had a feeling I'd probably end up getting pretty pissed off.

So, any tips on this? I really want to be a team player, but I'm half wondering if perhaps I'm getting worked up over something that may never happen. I'm not entirely sure when my group got to the point where communication, asking nicely, and working together became a frustration.

[ericgrau]

It is a cooperative game. You should do whatever contributes best to the party without asking for payment, though your party shouldn't be ***** about it. It is true that buffs are generally worse than other spells during combat, but outside of combat they are generally better than other spells.

This is what I do:
1. Pack in as many hour/level spells as you can, spell slots allowing. Generally that means as many as you can cast except for your top 1 or 2 spell levels. Recast and/or extend (a lesser rod of extend spell is nice) to keep them up 24 hours so you are never caught unprepared. If you expect a dungeon run that day, prepare 10 min/level spells too and cast them at the dungeon entrance.
2. Pick your one favorite spell for the buffing round that you sometimes get before combat. Probably haste. Maybe 2 if more than 1 fight per day is common, or if it's a key part of a strategy like greater invisibility on the rogue. Otherwise put additional buffs onto scrolls since you will rarely get a chance to use them. Level 1 and 2 buffs are especially cheap to scroll.

Don't worry about expendables and spell material components. Don't even hesitate to blow piles of gp on tons of them. It is a common myth that you're throwing money away that you'll never see again. In fact D&D combat is so short that in reality you are spending thousands of gp less than permanent items. A level 5 scroll is a bit nuts though. You should get others to pitch in and get them to consider the cost beforehand of such things.

If you run out of spells per day or can't squeeze in learning a spell due to others you need first, then it is reasonable to have the buff recipients pitch in. You shouldn't gimp your own actions more than you buff someone else's.

This may be more of a personal matter than a mechanical matter, since the party is being rude about getting you to help out. That part may need to be handled out of game. It does sound like at least some of the players understand at least some of the time, so I doubt you'll have too much trouble talking it out. There is only the initial difficulty of getting it out into the open and then removing hard feelings so you can all have fun afterwards.