[AD&D] Half-Elf becoming a Bard

[sadi]

I've been trying to figure out how you actually become a 1st edition bard as a half-elf. Do they start out as a multiclass Fighter/Thief, or as an exception to the humans only changing class get to do the single class fighter 5-8, and change class to thief 5-9, then get into bard?

[Mutazoia]

I've been trying to figure out how you actually become a 1st edition bard as a half-elf. Do they start out as a multiclass Fighter/Thief, or as an exception to the humans only changing class get to do the single class fighter 5-8, and change class to thief 5-9, then get into bard?

The 1st ed Bard wasn't called the God Bard for nothing. It's majorly borked. BUT...

A first ed Bard can be Human or half elf.

They have to start out as exclusively fighters until 5th level then before 8th switch exclusively to thief. Some time between 5th and 9th level they switch to druid. At that point they are considered Bards under druidic tutelage.
They must always remain Neutral, but can be Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful.

[satorian]

I think he is asking because usually only humans can dual class, and he was confused as to whether half elf bards are an exception to this rule. I don't have his answer, but I thought I would clarify, since his query didn't seem to come across.

[Mutazoia]

I think he is asking because usually only humans can dual class, and he was confused as to whether half elf bards are an exception to this rule. I don't have his answer, but I thought I would clarify, since his query didn't seem to come across.

1e bards can be Human or Half Elf... Half elves can multi-class into bards, but they cannot play as fighters when they pick up their theif class, and cannot play as a fighter or a theif when they pick up the Druid class (they can start playing as a lvl 1 bard any time after picking up Druid and then start using the Bard xp/spell tables at which point the fighert/thief/druid levels technically become null and void...you still keep them but you can't progress in them ever again).

[satorian]

That was always implied by the way one has to become a bard. However, couldn't only humans dual class, and doesn't the bard basically require the ability to dual class? This is the conundrum. Can half elves break the dual class rule to follow the bard path? OK, let's say they can. Can they change their minds partway through, and say, just advance as Druid after running the rest of the way? Or do they automatically dual again into bard after completing the prerequisites, even if they don't want to?

[Mutazoia]

That was always implied by the way one has to become a bard. However, couldn't only humans dual class, and doesn't the bard basically require the ability to dual class? This is the conundrum. Can half elves break the dual class rule to follow the bard path? OK, let's say they can. Can they change their minds partway through, and say, just advance as Druid after running the rest of the way? Or do they automatically dual again into bard after completing the prerequisites, even if they don't want to?

The RAW for the 1e bard states that:

"Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th leve of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under drudical tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before progressing to Bards Table 1. They must always remail neutral, but can be chaotic, evil, good or lawful if they wish."

Ergo one can assume that "change their class" to mean that they stop practicing the one class and exclusively practice the next. Since Half Elves are allowed to be bards and are also allowed to multi-class, this simply means that they stop using their fighter skills and play only as a thief. This makes much more sense when you consider how 1e handled multiclassing.

In 1e, if you multi-classed you could gain experience in both classes only if you used "skill sets" of each class during an adventure. For example if you were a Fighter/Magic User, you could only apply your XP to both classes if you stuck people with your sword AND cast spells at them. If you only cast spells the entire adventure you were not allowed to apply any XP to your fighter class. If you stick someone with your sword and pelt them with Magic Missile, you split your XP for that adventure evenly between the two classes.

So in the case of our Half Elven bard, if he starts as a fighter, then switches to thief, as long as he doesn't go around wearing full plate/swinging two handed swords and uses his thieves skills/weapons/armor exclusively, he can advance as a thief with out breaking the requirements to become a bard.

They can change their mind any time before actually switching to Druid, as Druid is not on the list of allowed multi-class options. When multi-classing, 1e Half Elves are limited to Cleric/Fighter, Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Magic-user, Fighter/Magic-user, Fighter/Thief, Magic-user/Thief, Figher/Thief/Magic-user and Cleric/Fighter/Magic-user.

[LibraryOgre]

One interpretation I have seen is that a 1e character who has the stats and wants to be a bard stats as a bard... but starting as a bard means spending several levels as a fighter, then several levels exclusively as a thief, before actually starting to gain "bard" levels.

[MeeposFire]

That was always implied by the way one has to become a bard. However, couldn't only humans dual class, and doesn't the bard basically require the ability to dual class? This is the conundrum. Can half elves break the dual class rule to follow the bard path? OK, let's say they can. Can they change their minds partway through, and say, just advance as Druid after running the rest of the way? Or do they automatically dual again into bard after completing the prerequisites, even if they don't want to?

Rules are quiet on this you will just have to decide what you want to do about it. You are correct only humans are allowed to dual class but this seems to be an implied exception. This also seems to be an exception to the ability score requirements for dual class characters as well.

[ken-do-nim]

FYI, I allow half-elves and half-orcs limited dual-classing, and this makes the half-elf bard progression a non-issue.

From my house rules doc:

Half-elves who start out as single-classed characters can choose to learn new classes like humans, but in a limited fashion. Classes that can be added are fighter, thief, and either version of bard (Dragon magazine bard or PHB bard).

Half-orcs who start out as single-classed characters can choose to learn new classes like humans, but in a limited fashion. Classes that can be added are fighter and one of thief or assassin.

[satorian]

FYI, I allow half-elves and half-orcs limited dual-classing, and this makes the half-elf bard progression a non-issue.

From my house rules doc:

Half-elves who start out as single-classed characters can choose to learn new classes like humans, but in a limited fashion. Classes that can be added are fighter, thief, and either version of bard (Dragon magazine bard or PHB bard).

Half-orcs who start out as single-classed characters can choose to learn new classes like humans, but in a limited fashion. Classes that can be added are fighter and one of thief or assassin.

Not Druid? Your rules are fine and dandy, but maybe allow Druid if you want a true non-issue.

By the way, I am aware of how rules are dealt with in AD&D: i.e. DM, do your best. Still, I didn't think the answers being given really answered OP's question. Well, until MeeposFire, that is. The rules on this don't really make sense as written, not that such makes it unique in AD&D. What I found weird is that I never noticed it from 1985-2000, when I played 1 and 2e.

[Jay R]

You are correct that the Bard rules and the Half-Elf rules are not consistent. That means it's up to the DM to make a ruling.

The DM will have to decide whether the Bard rules trump the rule that Half-Elves can't dual-class, or whether the Half-Elf rules mean that the Half-Elf can start as a Fighter/Thief, and then jump to Druid & Bard.

If I were DMing, I would allow the player to do either one, but the decision is irrevocable. If she takes Fighter/Thief together, she must keep them both until she switches to Druid. This would mean some wasted xps, since there's no place they both level at the same time.

(Of course, I'm not sure I'd allow a 1E Bard, and would probably substitute the 2E rules for that class.)

[Ghostwheel]

I actually started as a AD&D Half-Elf Ranger, wished into a Thief and then wished into Bard. That was one heck of a ring.

The DM simply invoked Rule 0, since he thought it was pretty cool idea as well....

[Jay R]

I applaud. One of the best uses of a Wish is to get back a troublesome rule and give the player more options, without explicitly giving more power.

[MeeposFire]

Yes if you want Half elves to be bards then you have to use the implied exception towards the dual classing rules. It will annoy your rules lawyers but hey that is just a perk:smalltongue:.

Assuming I was going to allow the bard in the first place (I would I am lenient like that) I would just work as if the bard instructions trump the dual class rules as a specific exception. Specific trumping general isn't an actual rule in 1e but it works for me here.

[Mutazoia]

I had rather forgotten this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html) bit....