Reach Mach 1 (sans magic)

[Kree West]

I'm making a build that needs to be able to reach Mach 1 flying. Preferably without using a minimum amount of magic/magical items. The creature I'm using is a pegasus if you wanted to know. Thanks.

Current Builds

Pegasus
Pally Mount
18th Level Monk
1 Level Barbarian (Ground Only)
5 Level Druid (Ground Only)
Feats: Epic Speed, Dash
Magic: Cloak of Pheonix (Ground Only)
Ground 7400ft(Base +60, Pally Mount +10, Epic Speed/HoS +30, Druid Speed +30, Barbarian +10, Dash +5, 18th Level Monk +60, Cheetah Sprint(via Wildshape) x10, Charge x2, Down Speed x2(via CoP))
Fly 9000ft (Base +120, Pally Mount +10, Epic Speed +30, Dash +5, 18th Level Monk +60, Down Speed x2, Charge x2, Cheetah Sprint(via Wildshape) x10)

Half Pegasus-Half Cheetah :smalltongue:
Pally Mount
18th Level Monk
2+ Levels in Random Class
Feats: Epic Speed, Dash
Magic: Debateably being a Half Pegasus-Half Cheetah
Fly 9000ft(Base +120, Pally Mount +10, Epic Speed +30, Dash +5, 18th Level Monk +60, Cheetah Sprint x10, Down Speed x2, Charge x2)

I think we did it. As long as charge stacks with cheetah.

[Slipperychicken]

Preferably without using a minimum amount of magic/magical items.

Why? [screw the text minimum]

[iDesu]

Well Mach 1 seems to be about 768 mph which roughly translate to 6758.4 feet per round. We can quarter that assuming that's your full run speed so you would need a fly speed of 1690. Since the pegasus has a fly speed I don't think you're going to reach that without a lot of magic.

[Kree West]

You can use magic but try to use the least possible and magic items over magic. As for why so little magic, I want to keep it simple.

[Humble Master]

I'm making a build that needs to be able to reach Mach 1 flying. Preferably without using a minimum amount of magic/magical items. The creature I'm using is a pegasus if you wanted to know. Thanks. Hmm, mach 1, Pegasus [Uses the Divination spell Google]

Well either your a fan of Mustang cars or I smell a brony.

Why? [screw the text minimum]
Cause' Rainbow Dash doesn't have a horn, duh.

[Flickerdart]

Mach 1 is ~1116ft/s, or ~6696ft per round. A shadow draconic half-fey warbeast cheetah Barbarian 1/Totemist 5 with Fleet of Foot, Dash, Improved Speed, Dread Carapace has a flight speed of 335ft. If it's executing a diving charge, it can move 20 times its movement speed, or 6700 feet.

Who needs a pegasus when you have this...thing? :smallwink:

[Kree West]

I'm not sure but I believe that there is a magical item that gives the user a flight speed of half the running speed. So I guess I could optimize run speed then go warshaper and grow some wings on a horse.

[Slipperychicken]

Cause' Rainbow Dash doesn't have a horn, duh.

I don't watch MLP, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that show use magic as the explanation for their powers?


I'm not sure but I believe that there is a magical item that gives the user a flight speed of half the running speed. So I guess I could optimize run speed then go warshaper and grow some wings on a horse.

Phoenix Cloak (MiC, 50k) gives you fly speed equal to land speed and perfect maneuverability.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

The real question here is if a Pegasus can mount other creatures. If so, it's just matter of a couple feats to move any distance instantaneously, provided properly arranged mounts. I suppose you'd need all the mounts to be other Pegasi to do it in the air, so I guess friendship isn't just magic, it's also an extraordinary ability which can shatter reality.

[Invader]

Why? [screw the text minimum]

By far my favorite post of the week :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

The real question here is if a Pegasus can mount other creatures. If so, it's just matter of a couple feats to move any distance instantaneously, provided properly arranged mounts. I suppose you'd need all the mounts to be other Pegasi to do it in the air, so I guess friendship isn't just magic, it's also an extraordinary ability which can shatter reality.

So "friendship" involves a bunch of ponies mounting each other midair?


This is why I don't watch MLP.

[Kree West]

Phoenix Cloak (MiC, 50k) gives you fly speed equal to land speed and perfect maneuverability.

Does run affect this or is it base land speed?

[Slipperychicken]

Does run affect this or is it base land speed?

I'm pretty sure you can use the Run action with flight. The Run feat should also work with flight.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure you can use the Run action with flight. The Run feat should also work with flight.
It does. "A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line."

[Humble Master]

Mach 1 is ~1116ft/s, or ~6696ft per round. A shadow draconic half-fey warbeast cheetah Barbarian 1/Totemist 5 with Fleet of Foot, Dash, Improved Speed, Dread Carapace has a flight speed of 335ft. If it's executing a diving charge, it can move 20 times its movement speed, or 6700 feet.

Who needs a pegasus when you have this...thing? :smallwink:
How do you get x20 on a diving charge? Sorry I don't know which books all that stuff is from.

[Kree West]

Thanks guys. Lets see running in the air for about 600 ft. Now how to multiply this by about 11 and we've got something. Barb would only help for land speed so would horseshoes of speed. So Land 400ft(Base +60, Barb +10, HoS +30, Run x5) Fly 600ft(Base +120, Run x5).

Edit I found Diving Charge but it doesn't improve speed.

[eggynack]

How do you get x20 on a diving charge? Sorry I don't know which books all that stuff is from.
I believe he's referring to the cheetah's sprint, which says, "Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge," in addition to the normal flight ability, "Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed."

[Kree West]

I believe he's referring to the cheetah's sprint, which says, "Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge," in addition to the normal flight ability, "Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed."


Hmm... x2 would help but I would have to use a half cheetah or something for thwe x10.

[Humble Master]

I believe he's referring to the cheetah's sprint, which says, "Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge," in addition to the normal flight ability, "Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed." Ahh, thank you. I really should look up the rules for flying before posting on a thread optimizing flying :smallredface:

So looks like Cheetah's Speed and Down Speed is the way to go.

Hmm... x2 would help but I would have to use a half cheetah or something for thwe x10. You could also just get Wild Shape and then take the Cheetah's Speed feat from Complete Divine. It lets you, at the cost of a Wild Shape use, get a land speed of 50ft and be able to sprint at x10 speed.

[Kree West]

The problem with that is either I have to use cheese, magic, or half breeds to get cheetah's speed. Also I have conflicting results on run. I have seen x5 and x4.

[Humble Master]

The problem with that is either I have to use cheese, magic, or half breeds to get cheetah's speed. Also I have conflicting results on run. I have seen x5 and x4. Normally you run at x4 but if you take the Run feat it makes it x5.

And sorry to break it to you but your not going to achieve Mach 1 in D&D without cheese, magic or cross breeding that would make Darwin cry.

[Kree West]

Well I guess it's true. Our cheetah and pegasus half breed is near Mach 1. Time for more feat research.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, that gives me an idea - multi-stage mounts. Since mounts explicitly only use their own action to move, you could stack pegasi of various sizes atop one another, and have the smallest rider be a half-celestial cheetah. The mount stack takes move actions starting from the bottom - the largest pegasus flies straight down (*10 movement modifier, 1200ft), then the next one, and so on. Finally, the cheetah charges down (*20 movement modifier, 2000ft). To hit Mach 1, we need 4 pegasi. Assuming a Dungeonbred cheetah, we need to go up to a Gargantuan pegasus as our stage 1. The easiest thing would be to just use dragons instead, as they all have great movement speeds and can take Improved Flight Speed.

Gold Dragons are fast enough for a Large stage 1, with speeds of 200 feet, 220 with the feat, or 2200ft on a dive run. The next dragon is Medium, also moving 2200 feet. Then we have the Draconic Dungeonbred Half-Celestial Cheetah with a speed of 120 feet, charging down to catch prey that's a total of 6800 feet below where the stack of dragons started.

And there you have it, folks. If you add more stages (cheetah has to be the terminal, but with Compression it shrinks to Diminutive, which gives us 8 stages of dragons to play with) then we can start using Epic dragons: C+ at 370ft, C at 320ft, G at 320ft, and H at 270ft, we can cover a total distance of 3700+3200+3200+2700+2200+2200+2200+1700+2400=23500 feet in 6 seconds which is Mach 3.48. We could jury-rig Ring Gates of various size so that once a stage is expended it falls through the ring and appears at its original altitude, formed up with a new cheetah warhead it can deliver next round.

Do you think that a Sonic Rainboom is colourful because of friendship? No. It's discarded chromatic dragons vaporized into sparkledust due to their sheer velocity.

[CRtwenty]

And there you have it, folks. If you add more stages (cheetah has to be the terminal, but with Compression it shrinks to Diminutive, which gives us 8 stages of dragons to play with) then we can start using Epic dragons: C+ at 370ft, C at 320ft, G at 320ft, and H at 270ft, we can cover a total distance of 3700+3200+3200+2700+2200+2200+2200+1700+2400=23500 feet in 6 seconds which is Mach 3.48. We could jury-rig Ring Gates of various size so that once a stage is expended it falls through the ring and appears at its original altitude, formed up with a new cheetah warhead it can deliver next round.

Now we just need to time it so it hits a Peasant Railgun heading in the opposite direction.

[BWR]

cross breeding that would make Darwin cry.

You mean like a pegasus?

[Firest Kathon]

If you "just" want to reach supersonic speed (and not go anywhere specific), you would just need to fly up really high and then fall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtvDA0W34I).

[Kree West]

I'm trying to make this flying not falling. Any way multi-stage mounts is weird and sort of insane. Humble's idea of the wild shape stuff could be useful. While it's magic it helps a lot.

[Pickford]

Does the Pegasus get a free pass as being war-trained? Otherwise it's a move action (yours) to control it in combat (the only time rounds are used), if the ride check fails it's a full-round action.

This would seem to interfere with the staged rocketmount idea.

[CRtwenty]

Does the Pegasus get a free pass as being war-trained? Otherwise it's a move action (yours) to control it in combat (the only time rounds are used), if the ride check fails it's a full-round action.

This would seem to interfere with the staged rocketmount idea.

Pegasus are Intelligent, they can move under their own will without needing something like that.

[Kree West]

Does anyone know of a simple +10 speed enhancement I'm not using. If you can find it we can reach Mach 1. Also does the cheetah thing override charge?

[Humble Master]

Does anyone know of a simple +10 speed enhancement I'm not using. If you can find it we can reach Mach 1. Also does the cheetah thing override charge? I think that the Cheetah Sprint overrides the normal x2 of charge. I states that "Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge." I think this kind of implies that the x10 replaces the normal x2 for a charge but I could be wrong.

[Kree West]

Hmm... Does anyone else know? I want to make sure that that is true. Does anyone know of a feat or something that gives a x2 modifier on speed?

[Claudius Maximus]

There are several excellent magic items for speed:

The specific magic item Rapid Wrath from Ghostwalk doubles the speed of a creature that carries it. It doesn't matter that you have hooves, you can still carry it. It's very cheap too - the special ability, when broken down, technically only costs 3400 gp, or at least 5700 on an actual weapon, like a club.

There's also the Horned Helmet from Arms and Equipment Guide, which again doubles speed, and gives you a silly gore attack. At 38000 gp this costs a bit more.

There's also the Panther Mask from MIC, which gives you +5 speed, which is nice, but more importantly gives you the Run feat, which saves you a feat slot. 2700 gp makes this a steal.

And now for the big one. The Feathered Wings fiendish graft from Fiend Folio grants a fly speed equal to double your land speed. Which is, at this point, enormous. Is cutting off a pegasus's glorious white wings to install new ones made of pure evil insane? Absolutely. It's also extremely useful, and black metal as hell. And cheap too - only 10000 gp. Of course they slowly drive you insane/evil, but everything has side effects.

Hope this helps. I know you've managed to hit Mach 1 already, but maybe with this stuff you can free up some build resources for other purposes.

[Darrin]

Assuming room temperature and dry air at sea level, the speed of sound is around 343.2 meters/second according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound). That's about 1126 feet per second, or 6756 feet per round... let's round that up to 6760 feet per round just to be on the safe side.


Half-Fey Xeph
Cleric 1/Wildshape Ranger 5/Totemist 6/Barbarian 1/Ardent 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Forest Reeve 1
Feats: Dash, Divine Vigor, Cheetah's Speed, Divine Soultouch, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Double Chakra, Bonus Essentia, Track (Ranger 1), Endurance (Ranger 3), Speed of Thought (PsyWar 1), Azure Talent (PsyWar 2)

50' Base speed (Cheetah's Speed)
+110' Dread Carapace (soulmeld, 60' + 10'/essentia, essentia = 5)
+25' Worg Pelt (soulmeld, 5' + 5'/essentia, essentia = 4)
+15' Divine Soultouch (+10' to Dread Carapace, +5' to Worg Pelt)
+30' Xeph Burst (racial ability, competence bonus)
+10' Fast Movement (Barbarian 1)
+10' Fast Movement (Forest Reeve 1)
+10' Speed of Thought (XPH, insight bonus)
+10' Celerity domain (Spell Compendium, untyped bonus)
+10' Freedom Mantle
+10' Quick trait (Unearthed Arcana, untyped bonus)
+10' Divine Vigor (Complete Warrior, untyped bonus)
+5' Dash feat (untyped bonus)
-----
305' land speed

Half-Fey gives a flight speed = 2x land speed, or 610'.
Sky domain = +5' fly speed, so 615'

(Air Heritage from Planar Handbook and Improved Speed from Draconomicon might improve this further, but they require some additional prereq hoops to jump through.)

After we activate Divine Vigor, Divine Soultouch, and Cheetah's Speed, we can use our Sprint (Ex) ability to charge 10x our fly speed, or 6150'. Unfortunatley, that's not quite fast enough, but fortunately, we still have a swift action left, so we activate hustle for +615', and that pushes us just over the sound barrier.

6150'
+615'
-----
6765' per round

If flying straight down allows us to double our movement and we can avoid the wacky D&D multiplication rules, then we can break mach 2.

Caveats: I'm actually short about 3 points of essentia, so I can't power up all those soulmelds at full capacity unless I can wrangle in another Bonus Essentia feat or two, or do something with Psycarnum Focus, but then I lose Speed of Thought and the Freedom Mantle boost. Wildshaping into a Dire Hawk first with a 80' fly speed would probably work better, but then I lose the Quick trait, and I have to dive straight down to get the 2x I was getting from doubling my land speed with the Half-Fey wings.

[Thespianus]

I'm going out on a limb and say that there is no rules for the speed of sound (Mach 1) in DnD, and that sound travels at a very odd (high) speed, probably almost the same speed as light, since I believe you can hear things from a long ways off in DnD in the same round as it happens in, given a high enough Listen check. ;)

[Humble Master]

I'm going out on a limb and say that there is no rules for the speed of sound (Mach 1) in DnD, and that sound travels at a very odd (high) speed, probably almost the same speed as light, since I believe you can hear things from a long ways off in DnD in the same round as it happens in, given a high enough Listen check. ;) Well with the Omnificer trick you can get an infinite Listen check and thus can hear anything from anywhere in the universe (I don't know of any rules for the vacuum of space in D&D). By that logic the speed of sound is infinite because the boundaries of the universe are infinite.

However I think this thread will assume that the speed of sound is about 6756 ft per round.

[Saintheart]

Find a Colossal dragon. Make sure he has Tempest Breath as a metabreath feat. Stack the Tempest Breath with itself roughly six hundred times. Use the breath. You are now hit with six hundred odd Blown Away effects at once, thus propelling you at MACH 1 for at least one round, albeit you're also taking massive nonlethal damage as you do.

[Pickford]

Pegasus are Intelligent, they can move under their own will without needing something like that.

Not according to the PHB.

edit: Or the MM.

Check the entry on Pegasus, pg. 206-207, no free pass for them. Actually they require special training to bear a rider in combat.

[Flickerdart]

Not according to the PHB.

edit: Or the MM.

Check the entry on Pegasus, pg. 206-207, no free pass for them. Actually they require special training to bear a rider in combat.
Pickford, let me ask you two questions:
1) Could you move without a guy sitting on your back directing you to do so?
2) Could you effectively fight while carrying said guy on your back?

[Talderas]

Oh, that gives me an idea - multi-stage mounts. Since mounts explicitly only use their own action to move, you could stack pegasi of various sizes atop one another, and have the smallest rider be a half-celestial cheetah. The mount stack takes move actions starting from the bottom - the largest pegasus flies straight down (*10 movement modifier, 1200ft), then the next one, and so on. Finally, the cheetah charges down (*20 movement modifier, 2000ft). To hit Mach 1, we need 4 pegasi.

Rocketry. D&D style.

[Flickerdart]

Rocketry. D&D style.
Unfortunately, most things move up at half speed. We'd need to use Wendigos (the easiest way of getting Perfect maneuverability at a fast speed and any size, that I know of) as mounts and no longer, which limits us to 600 feet per stage. Without significant speed boosts, such a contraption would never reach orbit before all of its stages are spent.

[Pickford]

Pickford, let me ask you two questions:
1) Could you move without a guy sitting on your back directing you to do so?
2) Could you effectively fight while carrying said guy on your back?

1) So you're relying on luck that the Pegasus just decided to go in the exact direction and speed you want? Also, an untrained mount is very likely to drop you, by accident. The training covers many things, including being comfortable with a saddle and a rider. And telling the Pegasus to do something is the move action/failure to convey your desires appropriately the full-round action.

2) No. edit: Not without special training. :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

The easiest way is to enter a vacuum where there is no Mach number at all. In space, no one can hear you scream, so sound does not propagate. More to your point, the Mach number depends upon the density of the material through which the sound wave propagates, so by climbing a very high mountain you can reduce the necessary speed.

[Immabozo]

I made a lycanthrope (who's legality was challenged, but I seem to have won the debate) with a fly speed of 1675 ish feet per round, as a base, then add on your little tricks and you could easily reach mach 3 or 4 with those multipliers. If you can slap that cheetah speed on there, mach 10-15! At which mach are you pushing the light barrier?

EDIT: few typos corrected

[Spuddles]

The real question here is if a Pegasus can mount other creatures.

....dude.


So "friendship" involves a bunch of ponies mounting each other midair?


This is why I don't watch MLP.

Dude!


At which mach are you pushing the light barrier?

About mach one million.

[Flickerdart]

And telling the Pegasus to do something is the move action/failure to convey your desires appropriately the full-round action.
Wrong. Talking is a free action.

[Immabozo]

About mach one million.

I dont think that's right, seeing as light speed is only about a quarter of a million MPH

Oh, wait, that's per second.... maybe you're right, haha

[ArqArturo]

Ring of Wishes.

"I wish I could move at Mach 1"

Done.

[Spuddles]

I dont think that's right, seeing as light speed is only about a quarter of a million MPH

Oh, wait, that's per second.... maybe you're right, haha

Mach 1 is about 300m/s, c is about 300,000,000 m/s.

[Immabozo]

Mach 1 is about 300m/s, c is about 300,000,000 m/s.

yeah, that sounds about right, lol

[Person_Man]

If for some reason homebrew is on the table, check out the Vanguard in my signature. It's a non-magical class based on speed and mobility.

[Humble Master]

Ring of Wishes.

"I wish I could move at Mach 1"

Done. Well then you want to go at Mach 1? Great, done, but the wild resistance disintegrates you.

Wishes are fun for DMs.

[ArqArturo]

Well then you want to go at Mach 1? Great, done, but the wild resistance disintegrates you.

I never said there would be unwanted side-effects.

[Flickerdart]

Ring of Wishes.

"I wish I could move at Mach 1"

Done.
Granted. You could move at Mach 1, but you no longer can.

[Slipperychicken]

Ring of Wishes.

"I wish I could move at Mach 1"

Done.

You feel yourself rocketed at Mach 1 into space, where you die in the vacuum. Roll up a new character.

[TuggyNE]

I never said there would be unwanted side-effects.

Sad thing is, because this isn't on the safe list, it's fair game for all but the most lenient DMs to exploit loopholes in.

[Pickford]

Wrong. Talking is a free action.

Riding commands aren't verbal. You tell them with your body. :smalltongue:

Edit: Ultimately it doesn't matter, the use of ride is in the PHB, so it's a move action, minimum.

[Phelix-Mu]

This may be my favorite new thread.:smallsmile:

And I'm sensing a Fate/Stay Night thing, too. Pegasi that move at Mach 1 is pretty much the Belerophon special technique of Rider/Medusa.

Just FYI, I'm pretty sure Tippy can come in here and figure a way to steal an arbitrarily high speed from an arbitrarily high-level monk via some kind of Illithid Savant + Astral Seed acrobatics. Or maybe factotum. Hmm.

I got an epic level monk of mine up to speed 220, and all the levels weren't even monk. I guess I had to use a couple magic items to get there, but you could probably sub in the optimization in this thread for the magic item. Polymorph any object on the monk to make it a pegasus and find a way for the bonuses to apply to it's fly speed (that air walk stance from ToB?).

Anyway, Fleet Runner of Ehlonna (Dragon Compendium) is another way to get access to that cheetah coolness. I think the abilities are identical.

[TuggyNE]

Riding commands aren't verbal. You tell them with your body. :smalltongue:

But that's mostly because it's an efficient means of communication (once properly trained); it's not as though you couldn't tell an intelligent mount where to go and use shorthand lingo to quickly communicate plans.

That said, while common sense seems fairly clear, RAW appears to defy it. :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

I might be missing something critical here, but is there something stopping us from just training the pegasi? We're not under any real time or resource constraints, so this seems like one of those trivial problems to solve.

[Flickerdart]

Riding commands aren't verbal. You tell them with your body. :smalltongue:

Edit: Ultimately it doesn't matter, the use of ride is in the PHB, so it's a move action, minimum.
Yes, it takes an action to use the Ride skill to control your mount. It doesn't take an action to just tell it to go somewhere.

[Pickford]

Yes, it takes an action to use the Ride skill to control your mount. It doesn't take an action to just tell it to go somewhere.

Well, we're talking about combat, which makes controlling your mount in combat a basic requirement to do anything on purpose.

[eggynack]

Well, we're talking about combat, which makes controlling your mount in combat a basic requirement to do anything on purpose.
Are we? I thought we were just trying to go as fast as possible, so that we can do a sonic rainboom and get an in to the wonderbolts. It seems entirely non-combat to me.

[Pickford]

Are we? I thought we were just trying to go as fast as possible, so that we can do a sonic rainboom and get an in to the wonderbolts. It seems entirely non-combat to me.

Yes we are.


Charge x2

requires combat.

[eggynack]

Yes we are.



requires combat.
It looks like only the cheetah on the very top is charging, so you don't need to be in combat until that happens. All the pegasi take move actions, and then have the cheetah decide that a guy on the ground gave him a funny look.

[Pickford]

It looks like only the cheetah on the very top is charging, so you don't need to be in combat until that happens. All the pegasi take move actions, and then have the cheetah decide that a guy on the ground gave him a funny look.

Eggynack the first post says it's a half-Pegasus half-cheetah...which somehow received monk training.

Wait a tick..Pegasus are Neutral Good and Cheetahs are Neutral, they aren't eligible for monk levels...

And the first build was 18 monk levels and 1 Barbarian level?!

[TuggyNE]

Wait a tick..Pegasus are Neutral Good and Cheetahs are Neutral, they aren't eligible for monk levels...

And the first build was 18 monk levels and 1 Barbarian level?!

Actually, Pegasi are "usually chaotic good", which leaves open the (small, but still significant) chance of being LG or something, and anything awakened can similarly change its alignment per the usual rules of creatures.

Also, Chaos Monk? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, Pegasi are "usually chaotic good", which leaves open the (small, but still significant) chance of being LG or something, and anything awakened can similarly change its alignment per the usual rules of creatures.

Also, Chaos Monk? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I agree with this. If the sketchy part of this trick that you are looking at is alignment incompatibility, then look again.:smalltongue:

Do you retain Ex class features while polymorphed? Might be easier to just take a high-level monk with some speed optimization and then PaO into a pegasus. Monk's stuff for speed is non-magical, but you might need to pick up Balance on the Air (ToB) for fly speed=base speed, and I think that stance is Su, so nominally magical. Actually, on second check, that's not necessary.

[Karnith]

Do you retain Ex class features while polymorphed?
Yes. Polymorph Any Object is based on Polymorph, which is itself based on Alter Self, which has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
(Emphasis mine)

With no language to contradict Alter Self's rules about (Ex) class features, Polymorph lets you retain them as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, which has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

(Emphasis mine)

With no language to contradict Alter Self's rules about (Ex) class features, Polymorph lets you retain them as well.

Why thank you for the quick, precise, and well-sourced answer.:smallsmile:

I'll have to keep this in mind as a DM. Also, under what interpretation of sensible powers to make into relatively low-level spells is this kind of thing acceptable? Keep your coolness and get a flavor of coolness from the following list that has almost anything you can think of. It's cool how much better this line of spells is for humanoids than for monsters.

Alas.

[Flickerdart]

Why thank you for the quick, precise, and well-sourced answer.:smallsmile:

I'll have to keep this in mind as a DM. Also, under what interpretation of sensible powers to make into relatively low-level spells is this kind of thing acceptable? Keep your coolness and get a flavor of coolness from the following list that has almost anything you can think of. It's cool how much better this line of spells is for humanoids than for monsters.

Alas.
I've always thought the [Polymorph] spellls in the PHBII were pretty reasonable. Polymorph into X shape, your stats become Y, and you gain Z abilities. If you intend to let people keep their casting, it's still a useful approach, because you, as the DM, can produce these X-shape spells only for monsters that aren't hideously stupidly broken. Want to turn into a bear? Here's a bearshape. Want to turn into a hydra? Nope.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've always thought the [Polymorph] spellls in the PHBII were pretty reasonable. Polymorph into X shape, your stats become Y, and you gain Z abilities. If you intend to let people keep their casting, it's still a useful approach, because you, as the DM, can produce these X-shape spells only for monsters that aren't hideously stupidly broken. Want to turn into a bear? Here's a bearshape. Want to turn into a hydra? Nope.

That is actually my personal houserule. Polymorph has been replaced by a number of spells, each which grants the use of a specific form. Still trying to gauge how much I need to alter alter self, but it seems to be "too much versatility" too.

Shapechange is even more problematic in and of itself, but appears at a level where the arms race has accelerated to a point where a single spell is hardly the nexus of the issue.

[Flickerdart]

Shapechange is pretty well reined in just by ruling that you can't get epic monsters, spellcasting, or abilities that would normally cost XP off of it. It's still good, but a 9th level spell should be.

Alter Self would probably work better as a list of fixed boons (a la Animal Devotion, or Minor Shapeshift).

[Pickford]

Actually, Pegasi are "usually chaotic good", which leaves open the (small, but still significant) chance of being LG or something, and anything awakened can similarly change its alignment per the usual rules of creatures.

Also, Chaos Monk? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Uh, you can't awaken a magical beast? It's already intelligent, the spell won't target it...more reasons?

edit: Karnith, check out the Polymorph subschool. PHB 320


The subject loses are special abilities it has in its natural form, including its class features, even if the assumed form would normally be able to use these class features.

[eggynack]

Uh, you can't awaken a magical beast? It's already intelligent, the spell won't target it...more reasons?
Your argument only really pointed out a problem in one out of several of his points. The most important one is the "usually" involved, with the chaos monk one being secondary. Things still seem pretty much fine.

[shaikujin]

Depending on how chessy the OP is willing to go,

1) Planar bubble/Acorn of Far Travel to a demiplane with the trait subjective direction gravity. Adds free action movement up to 1,000 ft per round

2) The no gravity trait (for the Astral plane iirc) allows movement scaled to Int x 10.

If using a way to cheese Int like Verminlord's hivemind ability, you can get several thousand Int.

Equates to tens of thousands ft of movement.

[TuggyNE]

Uh, you can't awaken a magical beast? It's already intelligent, the spell won't target it...more reasons?

I meant the cheetah part. :smalltongue: But it doesn't matter, since I read that wrong for whatever reason. Everything else applies just fine; that's merely a bit of overkill that isn't needed for the argument to work.

[Pickford]

Your argument only really pointed out a problem in one out of several of his points. The most important one is the "usually" involved, with the chaos monk one being secondary. Things still seem pretty much fine.

Eggy I'm not sure what your point here is. The problem stops the theory in its tracks. That's kind of a big deal.

[eggynack]

Eggy I'm not sure what your point here is. The problem stops the theory in its tracks. That's kind of a big deal.
Your problem was that pegasi can't be monks because they can't be lawful. They can be lawful, because they're only usually chaotic good. Awaken wasn't a central facet of the argument. It was only one of several ways to reach the same end result.

[fluke1993]

Regarding as to whether or not it is a move action to control your mounts, if it was couldn't we just war-train the damn thing?