Nale and Elan with different parents

[Tragak]

If Nale had been raised by their mother and Elan had been raised by Tarquin, how do you guys think that they (and the story) would have turned out different?

[Rakoa]

If Nale had been raised by their mother and Elan had been raised by Tarquin, how do you guys think that they (and the story) would have turned out different?

It would have turned out exactly the same. Except Nale would be named Elan and Elan would be named Nale.

Or we could get into a debate of genetic predeterminism versus environmental factors that shape the psyche of a child.

[137beth]

It would have turned out exactly the same. Except Nale would be named Elan and Elan would be named Nale.

Or we could get into a debate of genetic predeterminism versus environmental factors that shape the psyche of a child.

There's one thing that would have been different, though: The police officer in cliffport might have figured out what Thog was saying, since "Elan" and "Not-Elan" don't sound like "'nail" and "not-nail":smalltongue:

[Oakianus]

Elan's brain damage caused by Nale was clearly responsible for making him Chaotic Good, so he probably would have died as an earnest soldier doing the 'right' thing in his father's military service, while Nale would have probably been just as violent and evil and would have been killed by Sir Francis rather than serving him.

This is obviously the one true answer.

[Amphiox]

I think that there is just one single piece of in-comic evidence on which to anchor speculations on this:

According to the flashback, even before they were separated, infant Nale was beating infant Elan on the head, in the soft part over the brain. Now, if this was a real event and not just a joke/faulty memory, it does imply the possibility that, at the moment of their separation, Elan and Nale were no longer identical blank slates upon which their upbringing would write their characters, and had, so to speak, differentiated from one another.

A few things that this might imply:

1. The head trauma was (if not just joke) the implied reason for the difference between Elan and Nale's mental abilities, while all their other scores are, per the Giant, identical. If true, this would mean that Elan-raised-by-Tarquin would still have regular Elan's low INT, high CHA, and Nale-raised-by-mom would still have his high INT, low WIS. It was further implied that Nale's love of complicated plans was inherited from his mother, and not the result of his upbringing with Tarquin. Similarly, Elan's genre-savvinness was implied to have been inherited from Tarquin and not the result of his upbringing by his mother.

So from this we could possibly speculate that Elan-raised-by-Tarquin would not be a carbon copy of Nale, but would still possess Elan's genre-savvinness (and stupidity in other things). Being raised by Tarquin could mean that his genre-savvinness is honed, thanks to Tarquin's training to an even higher degree, except that, being raised to be evil by Tarquin, it would be targeted to nefarious ends.

Similarly, Nale-raised-by-mom might have his own tendency to overly complex plans reinforced by his mom's upbringing. This could have two possible effects. First, it might make Nale-raised-by-mom possess a tendency to make even more convoluted plans that regular Nale does. Second, it could make Nale-raised-by-mom more effective than regular Nale in making his plans work, because his mom, having some experience in the making of overly complex plans herself, may have taught him some behaviors that would make him less likely to overlook flaws in his plans.

This above assumes attributes were differentiated, but character remained blank slate, so Elan-raised-by-Tarquin would be evil and Nale-raised-by-mom would be good.

However, in scenario 2, we consider the implication that it was Nale who hit Elan in the head and not Elan who hit Nale.

Now this could just be random chance, of infants flailing about, but perhaps it might mean that Nale was born with a tendency to be more violent or aggressive than Elan. One doesn't have to go all the way to absolute determinism (ie Nale was born a "bad seed", already evil) to contemplate the possibility that Nale may have been more easily swayed towards evil by Tarquin's upbringing than Elan would have been in the same situation, and vice versa with respect to good in the case of mom.

So it is possible that Elan-raised-by-Tarquin might be somewhat less evil than regular Nale, and Nale-raised-by-mom might be somewhat less good than regular Elan. Perhaps the inborn tendency towards good or evil might have even exactly balanced, turning both Elan-raised-by-Tarquin and Nale-raised-by-mom into Neutral characters.

A similar argument could be tried in suggesting that infant Nale hitting infant Elan repeatedly represents not a tendency to evil, but a tendency to chaos. In this case though, it would mean Nale, despite a tendency to chaos, was nevertheless raised by his lawful father to be lawful, and Elan, despite a tendency to order (as the twin who did not strike back), was still raised by his chaotic mother to be chaotic, in which case the switch would not have likely changed anything on this axis.

[Vinsfeld]

There's one thing that would have been different, though: The police officer in cliffport might have figured out what Thog was saying, since "Elan" and "Not-Elan" don't sound like "'nail" and "not-nail":smalltongue:

Good catch

[Tock Zipporah]

Elan's brain damage caused by Nale was clearly responsible for making him Chaotic Good, so he probably would have died as an earnest soldier doing the 'right' thing in his father's military service, while Nale would have probably been just as violent and evil and would have been killed by Sir Francis rather than serving him.

This is obviously the one true answer.

How exactly does brain damage make you Chaotic Good?

[Trickquestion]

Now this could just be random chance, of infants flailing about, but perhaps it might mean that Nale was born with a tendency to be more violent or aggressive than Elan.

Of course, in the world of Dungeons and Dragons, having a tendency towards violence hardly disqualifies someone from being good.

I think Nale-raised-by-mom(does she have a name yet?) wouldn't have gone with the over complicated pseudo bard. The reason he did so was to become Elan's evil counterpart, and Mom never told canon Elan about Nale, so with no knowledge of Elan and only the possibility of being evil, it stands to reason he'd pick something a bit more efficient. Still complicated, undoubtably, but certainly more efficient because he's not aiming for the dumb bard-but-not-really thing.

Elan-raised-by-Tarquin would likely still be a bard though. I feel like even if this version of Elan turned out as evil as Nale, he probably wouldn't have betrayed his father because of their mutual genre savvy, and he dosen't have Nale's over complexity addiction.

[The Pilgrim]

The fact that Nale already suffered, before the separation, tendency to violence and envy towards his brother (hence, Nale beating Elan in the head) seems to indicate that Nale would still be the evil twin (though being raised by his mother would have conditioned him to self-repress some of his evil tendencies), and Elan the good twin (though a lot less naïve, due to growing up around Tarquin).

[Whiffet]

I'm sure I remember Rich saying he wouldn't answer how they would have turned out alignment-wise because it would give away stuff that happens later.

... to the Index!

Yep, here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12242039#post12242039)

This means we might actually get an answer in the story one day. :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

The Giant declines to answer that question


I can't answer that one without giving away events that have yet to be revealed. Sorry

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12242039#post12242039

This implies that there shall be future events in the comic that will address the point.

My own personal speculation ...

Elan and Nale aren't really twins at all, but two halves of the same person. When his parents divorced they magically split him in two so they could both raise him. And the split created a good and an evil personality.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Elan's brain damage caused by Nale was clearly responsible for making him Chaotic Good...

It was responsible for his lower intelligence, not his alignment. The comic implies he got that from his mother.

[Tragak]

I'm sure I remember Rich saying he wouldn't answer how they would have turned out alignment-wise because it would give away stuff that happens later.

... to the Index!

Yep, here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12242039#post12242039)

This means we might actually get an answer in the story one day. :smallbiggrin: :smalleek: Oh. Wow. I thought I was just making a crazy joke-thread, this is actually going to be relevant?

[Warren Dew]

Or we could get into a debate of genetic predeterminism versus environmental factors that shape the psyche of a child.
If they're identical twins, genetics couldn't have played a factor in their differences, barring mutations that affected only one of them.

[JavaScribe]

If they're identical twins, genetics couldn't have played a factor in their differences, barring mutations that affected only one of them.
Note that baby Nale still has his signature goatee, while Elan has no equivalent.

[Trickquestion]

Here's some more food for thought: The Linear Guild... As designed by bad guy Elan. The evil opposites theme seems to be a result of Nale's complexity addiction, so Elan would probably end up creating a team that is somehow better built and completely nuts. After all, despite his stupidity, Elan does have the most mechanically sound build.

I'm thinking a frustrated Sabine being unable to breach his thick wall of obliviousness and Thog constantly wearing the leprechaun suit.

[ORione]

While Nale's stupid in his own way, he'd be smart enough not to blow up Dorukan's gate. Xykon and Redcloak would have gone on with the plan, and the Dark One would have gotten control of the gate.

Or maybe he wouldn't, depending on what's going on with the world in the snarl.