Epic Beginner Questions

[Cybris75]

Hi all,

soon our party will be level 20 and we want to try epic play after that. Problem is, we have lots of multiclass characters and the epic levelling rules
regarding spellcasters leave us all confused. Perhaps the playgrounders have answers:

Here is an example character:
Wizard 5/Nightmare Spinner 5/Divine Oracle 2/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5

The most important question is this: Can the character add normal class levels in any of these classes? I know Nightmare Spinner is out because it is a 5-level prestige class,
but could this character take Wizard 6, or Divine Oracle 3, or Mystic Theurge 6 at level 21?

Or does the character need to take the epic version of these classes?

If the character can add normal class levels, what happens to spells per day/spells known in these classes? Epic levels don't seem to advance spells per day, but the gods have stuff like Wizard 20/Cleric 20...

The rules say I can multiclass beyond level 20 by adding level 1 of a base class, so I guess casting advances normally for base classes that have not yet reached level 20, correct? Even for classes that one already has started pre-epic?

What happens to bonus feats, e.g. if this character adds 5 wizard levels and receives a bonus feat at Wizard 10/character level 25, is it an epic feat or just a normal one?

If the character adds 4 mystic theurge levels, he would be Wizard 5/Nightmare Spinner 5/Divine Oracle 2/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9, and his wizard spellcasting would be equivalent to a Wizard 20, correct? (1st level of Nightmare Spinner does not advance spellcasting). So could he then take Wizard 6, or would he have to take an epic wizard level, or advance Divine Oracle or Mystic Theurge?

If he needs to advance Mystic Theurge, does he need Mystic Theurge 10 next or the first epic mystic theurge level?

Edit: and another question: can a character start a new (non-epic) prestige class, or more than one new base class, after level 20?

Also, Epic Mystic Theurge seems to advance casting; what happens if someone goes beyond Wizard 20 casting with epic Mystic Theurge?

[Matticussama]

You only advance in the Epic versions of a class when you go beyond 20 levels in that class; in all other cases, you continue leveling up in the new class as normal with a few minor exceptions. The SRD section Adding a Second Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass) details how leveling up non-epic classes works in Epic.

You get all of the normal class features, spellcasting, etc from leveling up. However, you don't follow the normal BAB and Saving Throw progression. Instead, you follow the Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses Table. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#tableEpicSaveandEpicAttackBonuses)

So in this particular instance, leveling up in either Cleric or Wizard (or another non-epic prestige class) would give you all of the normal class features like spellcasting progression, bonus feats, familiar progression, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, but don't.

You never gain more (or higher level) spells than you have as a level 20 wizard. Once you hit that point the only reason to PrC in a class that advances your casting is for other class features that said PrC gives you.

As a wizard, once you hit epic, you should pretty much always switch over to Factotum. The Factotum 11 ability to ignore SR is amazing in Epic, as is the extra standard actions at Factotum 8, the skill and Initiative boost as Factotum 3, the Attack and save roll bonuses at Factotum 1, the AC boost at Factotum 16, and even the ability to steal other class features at Factotum 19.

[Cybris75]

Thank you, both.


As a wizard, once you hit epic, you should pretty much always switch over to Factotum.

I've never played a Factotum and am AFB; what happens to your wizard caster level if you switch to Factotum? Practical Spellcaster can only do so much.

Edit: On another note, Epic Mystic Theurge seems to be broken - taking Wizard and Cleric alternatingly would give bonus feats, familiar progression, and turn progression, but Epic Mystic Theurge gives none of that and only advances spellcasting for one of both classes every level... am I reading this correctly?

[Emperor Tippy]

Thank you, both.



I've never played a Factotum and am AFB; what happens to your wizard caster level if you switch to Factotum? Practical Spellcaster can only do so much.

Edit: On another note, Epic Mystic Theurge seems to be broken - taking Wizard and Cleric alternatingly would give bonus feats, familiar progression, and turn progression, but Epic Mystic Theurge gives none of that and only advances spellcasting for one of both classes every level... am I reading this correctly?

Oh your caster level stops advancing but that isn't particularly important.

Saving throws are based on Int not caster level and Epic SR tends to be either a joke or so absurd that you aren't going to beat it without specializing to do so anyways. Besides, Factotum 11 means never having to worry about SR again.

With Rods of Extend, Extend Spell, and Persistent spell durations shouldn't be a real concern by this point either.

Caster level is just relatively unimportant at this point.

Especially as Dispelling is done with Disjunction in Epic, not Greater Dispel Magic or the like (which caps the CL anyways).

[Cybris75]

Ah, ok, thanks.


Still, in order to get this right once and for all: I'm still having trouble with the level progression and have another question.

Example 2:
Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10
With 2x Practical Spellcaster

This character has the spell slots of a Wizard 17, and a Wizard caster level of 20 (plus spell slots of Cleric 13 and Cleric CL of 17).

On his next level, can this character gain:
a) a level of Wizard?
b) a level of Epic Wizard?

If a), add two more Wizard levels, and the character has Wizard 20 spell slots and a Wizard CL of 23.

On his next level, can this character gain:
a) a level of Wizard?
b) a level of Epic Wizard?

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah, ok, thanks.


Still, in order to get this right once and for all: I'm still having trouble with the level progression and have another question.

Example 2:
Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10
With 2x Practical Spellcaster

You probably want to switch out Cleric for Archivist. It runs off of Int so it synergizes better.


This character has the spell slots of a Wizard 17, and a Wizard caster level of 20 (plus spell slots of Cleric 13 and Cleric CL of 17).
Yes.


On his next level, can this character gain:
a) a level of Wizard?
Yes. He can do so until he hits Wizard 20, at which point his spells slots no longer advance.


b) a level of Epic Wizard?
No, he needs 20 levels in Wizard before he can take Epic Wizard.


If a), add two more Wizard levels, and the character has Wizard 20 spell slots and a Wizard CL of 23.

On his next level, can this character gain:
a) a level of Wizard?
Yes, but all it gives you is Bonus Feats and familiar advancement.

b) a level of Epic Wizard?
No, you need 20 levels in the Wizard class before you start getting Epic Wizard levels but the only difference between the two is the Epic Wizard Bonus feat list is longer, and I've yet to see the DM that won't let a wizard take said feats with his bonus feats once he goes epic.

Besides, PrC's are always a better choice than a 6th level in the Wizard class. There should pretty much never be a build that has more than Wizard 5 in it.

[Cybris75]

You probably want to switch out Cleric for Archivist. It runs off of Int so it synergizes better.


Yeah, it's just an example, the real build would be a Conjurer/Archivist/Theurge and have Master Specialist and Archmage mixed in, but I wanted to keep it simple this time...


No, he needs 20 levels in Wizard before he can take Epic Wizard.

Hm, that is really limiting in a prestige-class-heavy build if you want lots of epic feats. I guess the DMs have to make a decision about that one.


Besides, PrC's are always a better choice than a 6th level in the Wizard class. There should pretty much never be a build that has more than Wizard 5 in it.

Well, actually, pre-epic Wizard 6 gives you +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. It's not a bad level...

Thank you very much for your explanations!

[Stux]

Hm, that is really limiting in a prestige-class-heavy build if you want lots of epic feats. I guess the DMs have to make a decision about that one.

Or you can take the epic version of a 10 level prestige class you have 10 levels in already. Epic Incantatrix gets epic bonus feats for instance.


Well, actually, pre-epic Wizard 6 gives you +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. It's not a bad level...

Yeah but level 6 is usually the point where you can qualify for a useful prestige class. Such as the above mentioned Incantatrix or whatever. When it is a matter of earlier genuinely useful class features vs BAB and saves on a caster, the class features will pretty much always win!

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, it's just an example, the real build would be a Conjurer/Archivist/Theurge and have Master Specialist and Archmage mixed in, but I wanted to keep it simple this time...
No, do not specialize. Especially if you are starting at or near Epic. You will have more than enough spells per day and the versatility you loose in giving up two schools of magic is so not worth it.


Hm, that is really limiting in a prestige-class-heavy build if you want lots of epic feats. I guess the DMs have to make a decision about that one.
Plenty of PrC's have the same or better fear progression. Epic Incatatrix has the exact same bonus feat progression but also has more uses of Instant Meta, as just one example.

And if you don't care about CL then grab Feat Rogue and get one feat per 2 levels (instead of sneak attack, which everything in epic is going to be immune to anyways) and just use Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to make them whatever feats you actually want.


Well, actually, pre-epic Wizard 6 gives you +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. It's not a bad level...
Yes it is. Seriously, you are never better off taking more than five levels of the Wizard class unless you are barred from taking any PrC that advances wizard casting.

[Urpriest]

Yes it is. Seriously, you are never better off taking more than five levels of the Wizard class unless you are barred from taking any PrC that advances wizard casting.

IIRC, Swiftblade is best entered from Wizard 6. But yes, this is otherwise true.