How to steal an anti-magic stone?

[ILM]

This gets a little rules-bendy, but bear with me.

Assume that there's a stone, about the size of a football (not the American one, the proper round one :smallbiggrin: - call it about the size of a bowling ball, if you're unfamiliar). This stone locally creates a dead magic zone; it's like an AMF, but unaffected by LoS or LoE. Within, say, a mile of the stone, you're affected by the AMF, even if you're sitting in a closed box made of lead. This stone is sitting in a room with a number of other identical stones, so you could remove it without modifying local conditions.

Barring Invoke Magic and Initiate of Mystra, can anyone think of a way to steal the stone without being noticed, and then to drop it on unsuspecting targets without their expecting it?

[BowStreetRunner]

I might make several suggestions involving non-magic classes like rogue, but if I did everyone in the playground would scream "No! Just play a Wizard, because magic trumps everything else!"

[CRtwenty]

High level Rogue type with lots of ranks in stealth skills. Magic? He don't need no stinkin magic. Sneak in, steal the stone, then sneak somewhere else and plant it, or set up a trap/ambush to drop it one some poor sap.

[Humble Master]

If it's a football we could just fake an injury...

Anyway if the stones are just sitting there than it doesn't seem that difficult to take them. Are there guards? Are these stone in some big vault or something? Please elaborate on the defenses we would need to get through to steal these stones.

If the stones are just sitting there with no guards or people or nothing it seems like it would be easy for just a Rouge with decent ranks in Hide and Move Silently to steal these things.

[Vaz]

(Ex) Hide in Plain Sight (has to be got via the Dark template, not the Collar) and stealth skills. Be as small as possible.

Are Psionics different? If so, Mass Cloud Mind Power/Dorje/Psicrown.

If you just want to identify it, just steal all of them, and hire a magic user who is able to teleport carry each stone a mile or so away from the rest of the party. If he can cast spells at this range while a stone (works better with PF I assume for infinite cantrips), then that stone is not the AMF one. Rinse and Repeat.

Alternatively, DC50 Appraise checks for mundane detect magic (assuming that an AMF Item has a magical aura; because if it didn't, it wouldn't be a magical item and hence incapable of having an AMF).

On the other hand, why? Are you a party of mundanes? If it breaches LoE's and LoS, then surely your entire party is subject to it, all the time?

[ILM]

You guys misunderstand. The difficulty I'm running into here isn't to steal it; whatever defenses must be mundane and can therefore be bypassed by mundane means. The problem is to take it, bring it somewhere else (preferably hastily) and use it against unsuspecting enemies. If you have a constant, one-mile radius dead magic zone around you at all times, people kind of get a feeling that something's coming as soon as their magic fizzles out. I was just wondering if there was a convoluted way of, perhaps, spiriting it away into some kind of alternate plane and pluck it out from there when you need it or something like that. If it were just a regular emanation or spread, I'd just stick it in a box and put that in a bag of holding or something, but obviously that's not possible here...

[CRtwenty]

Well if Psionics are different, you could use various Psionic powers to stash it in another Plane or extra dimensional space until you needed it. If not you'd need Epic Level or Deific level magic to bypass the Antimagic Field.

Though there might be some Ki abilities that let you store things in an extra dimensional Ki space. I don't know for sure though.

[Humble Master]

You guys misunderstand. The difficulty I'm running into here isn't to steal it; whatever defenses must be mundane and can therefore be bypassed by mundane means. The problem is to take it, bring it somewhere else (preferably hastily) and use it against unsuspecting enemies. If you have a constant, one-mile radius dead magic zone around you at all times, people kind of get a feeling that something's coming as soon as their magic fizzles out. I was just wondering if there was a convoluted way of, perhaps, spiriting it away into some kind of alternate plane and pluck it out from there when you need it or something like that. If it were just a regular emanation or spread, I'd just stick it in a box and put that in a bag of holding or something, but obviously that's not possible here... First thing that comes to mind to be a monster that can Teleport as a Su ability (and thus ignore the Dead Magic zone) and then Teleport directly to your target. I cannot, off the top of my head however, think of such a monster.

[CRtwenty]

First thing that comes to mind to be a monster that can Teleport as a Su ability (and thus ignore the Dead Magic zone) and then Teleport directly to your target. I cannot, off the top of my head however, think of such a monster.

Is it a Dead Magic field? Or an Antimagic field. If it's the later then Su abilities won't work.

[Vaz]

You guys misunderstand. The difficulty I'm running into here isn't to steal it; whatever defenses must be mundane and can therefore be bypassed by mundane means. The problem is to take it, bring it somewhere else (preferably hastily) and use it against unsuspecting enemies. If you have a constant, one-mile radius dead magic zone around you at all times, people kind of get a feeling that something's coming as soon as their magic fizzles out. I was just wondering if there was a convoluted way of, perhaps, spiriting it away into some kind of alternate plane and pluck it out from there when you need it or something like that. If it were just a regular emanation or spread, I'd just stick it in a box and put that in a bag of holding or something, but obviously that's not possible here...

If it's an external campaign, just fly 1 mile higher than them. If you're stuck inside a dungeon crawler, then you're SOL.

[Humble Master]

Is it a Dead Magic field? Or an Antimagic field. If it's the later then Su abilities won't work. Crud I forgot that Su don't work in Antimagic fields. Scratch the Su teleport idea then.


If it's an external campaign, just fly 1 mile higher than them. You can also drop it on them for falling damage.

[Reyne]

I might make several suggestions involving non-magic classes like rogue, but if I did everyone in the playground would scream "No! Just play a Wizard, because magic trumps everything else!"

And along those lines, since it hasn't been mentioned yet, couldn't two Wishes do the trick? (Transport someone next to the stone so they can grab it, and the next turn Transport them to wherever the stone needs to go.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Stand 1 mile away.

Use Wish, as it ignores conditions of the area the target is in. It moves something FROM anywhere, To anywhere.

Antimagic effects at either end are ignored.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fast horses? A big catapult? How fast do we need to get this thing into position?

[Slipperychicken]

Cast something like telepathic bond between you and a friend. Have the friend stand a mile away from your targets (ideally on a horse) then instruct him to move the ball (and the AMF with it) to encompass your enemies. Then you try to jump them before they realize what's up, and direct your AMF buddy to "follow" them as appropriate. Wait that doesn't work at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

OTILUKE'S IMPRESSING FIELD (Complete Mage) set to suppress the AMF.

Invoke Magic to cast Force Chest (Spell Compendium) and put the AMF stone inside of it. Force effects automatically block AMF's and thus it is contained.

[Flickerdart]

OTILUKE'S IMPRESSING FIELD (Complete Mage) set to suppress the AMF.

Invoke Magic to cast Force Chest (Spell Compendium) and put the AMF stone inside of it. Force effects automatically block AMF's and thus it is contained.
It's not an AMF, it's a dead magic zone. Suppressing Sphere doesn't do anything.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's not an AMF, it's a dead magic zone. Suppressing Sphere doesn't do anything.

If its an actual dead magic zone then Planar Bubble set to a plane that is not a dead magic zone.

You have to cast it outside the area first but once you do that then you can just walk in and be fine as dead magic zones are a planar trait and thus overridden by planar bubble.

[Crake]

I think it's like a dead magic zone in that it extends to 1 mile ignoring line of effect, but otherwise functions like an antimagic field?

If that's the case I'd suspect force effects wouldn't stop it, and neither would planar bubble (since it's not a planar thing, it's just a powerful magic item/artifact).

This is something you should really be asking your DM about. A homebrew artifact like this would require homebrew workarounds, and it would also let him know what you're trying to do, so he'll know what to expect (although hopefully your enemies wont!). Otherwise what you think might work, might not actually work because you're assuming the item works one way or another.

[Khatoblepas]

Steal it normally, then dump it in a vat of Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm). Quintessence is nonmagical, and so the antimagic field won't affect it (the power creates it, I don't think there's any text that says it's anything other than a mundane object otherwise). It enters a state of stasis - and presumably the item has to actually be functioning to emanate the field. (people have used this spell to stop spell durations from running out, so clearly they're inactive whilst in the Quintessence)

When you need it, just take it out of the quintessence.

Ooh! Or just get someone with a natural fly speed to fly really high (more than a mile) above your target... And if they're watching the skies, you BURROW under them! I'm pretty sure you can get a burrow speed. You don't need to be fast, you just need to be able to take it just over a mile underneath them. Hire some kobolds. You know you can do it.

[Blightedmarsh]

Mount the thing on the end of a large missile. As long as no magic is involved your opponent wont see it coming. Particularly because he will find it hard to scry the insides to know what you are up to.

[Flickerdart]

Mount the thing on the end of a large missile. As long as no magic is involved your opponent wont see it coming. Particularly because he will find it hard to scry the insides to know what you are up to.
Not including dropping the thing from orbit, I'm not sure there are any non-magical ways in D&D to shoot something a mile away.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm sure someone (with far more op-fu than me) can make a thrown-weapon-sniper build capable of chucking a 50 pound lump of stone a few miles.

[Samalpetey]

Invoke Magic to cast Force Chest (Spell Compendium) and put the AMF stone inside of it. Force effects automatically block AMF's and thus it is contained.

Do they specifically stop antimagic fields or just block LOE? If it's the latter, it wouldn't affect the artifact

[Slipperychicken]

Do they specifically stop antimagic fields or just block LOE? If it's the latter, it wouldn't affect the artifact

They are not affected, but a Prismatic Sphere would contain the effect. It could even be Permanency'd to contain the stone indefinitely.


The wall can be destroyed, color by color, in consecutive order, by various magical effects; however, the first color must be brought down before the second can be affected, and so on. A rod of cancellation or a mage’s disjunction spell destroys a prismatic wall, but an antimagic field fails to penetrate it. Dispel magic and greater dispel magic cannot dispel the wall or anything beyond it. Spell resistance is effective against a prismatic wall, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present.

EDIT: Maybe if you use Prismatic Sphere, bring the stone inside it, then somehow expanded an Enveloping Pit (or other massive extradimensional storage space) to contain the entire Prismatic Sphere and its contents so it's all inside, then dismissed the Prismatic Sphere. The rock can't function across planes, so it's effectively suppressed inside the space.


Not including dropping the thing from orbit, I'm not sure there are any non-magical ways in D&D to shoot something a mile away.

Does Hulking Hurler rely on magic?

[Deophaun]

Not including dropping the thing from orbit, I'm not sure there are any non-magical ways in D&D to shoot something a mile away.
Bah, where's a hundred commoners when you need them?

[ArcturusV]

Oddly that's what I was thinking as well Deophaun.

[Vaz]

Fast horses? A big catapult? How fast do we need to get this thing into position?

Power Throw and any one of;

1) Cancer Mage
2) Incarnate+Dustform
3) some other things I've forgotten.

[Flickerdart]

Power Throw and any one of;

1) Cancer Mage
2) Incarnate+Dustform
3) some other things I've forgotten.
Power Throw is thrown weapon Power Attack. It doesn't change your range increments.

[Kane0]

How to acquire: Small Rogue-like character with good stealth and such.
How to use on enemies: A catapult. Failing that, a Hulking Hurler.

[Flickerdart]

How to acquire: Small Rogue-like character with good stealth and such.
How to use on enemies: A catapult. Failing that, a Hulking Hurler.
A heavy catapult's maximum range is about 1/5th of a mile. A Hulking Hurler has a range increment of 10ft +5ft per size category above Large, which means a maximum of +15ft since size categories for things that aren't Epic dragons top out at Colossal.

[Kane0]

A heavy catapult's maximum range is about 1/5th of a mile. A Hulking Hurler has a range increment of 10ft +5ft per size category above Large, which means a maximum of +15ft since size categories for things that aren't Epic dragons top out at Colossal.

Details :smalltongue:
So I guess we don't launch the stone from a mile away, we find a way to close the distance relatively fast. A hurler would be easier to transport than a catapult, so we find an appropriately fast (and non-magical) mount for him to get his payload within range.

Edit: Another way of getting better range would be using the stone as a bullet for a huge-sized sling instead of a thrown weapon. I think a sling's range increment is 50' or so? Getting the stone to hit a target isn't really a necessity, aim for an AC 5 square and the next mile around it will be affected. Or does it need to be an accurate delivery?

[Flickerdart]

The easiest non-magical way to make things go fast is probably multi-stage mounts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15532722&postcount=23).

[Thurbane]

(Ex) Hide in Plain Sight (has to be got via the Dark template, not the Collar) and stealth skills. Be as small as possible.
This.

Dark Creature Skulk has HiPS (Ex); Hide +23 and Move Silently +14 (before any ranks or ability mods); move and run at full speed with no penalty to Hide checks; and +10 difficulty to checks to be tracked with Survival. It also has Innate Nondetection (Su), but this would be suppressed. Grab the Darkstalker feat to foil Scent etc.

I was also going to suggest the Vecna Blooded template, but all of it's abilities are Su, and again, would be suppressed.

[ArcturusV]

Well, rather than the Hurler, you could probably use an archer. Presuming this stone doesn't loose it's powers if it's shaped/fragmented. You could make some Dead Magic Zone Arrow heads (Probably with reduced radius of the Dead Magic Zone I'd imagine? Even if it's just 1/10th the radius you have a solid half mile across of Dead Magic). Even before you get into Range Increasers, a Composite Longbow will out range a Catapult. 1/5th a mile being 1,026 feet. Well, in DnD since they round down, 1,025 feet, which is 205 squares. Standard Longbow range being 1,100 feet for 220 squares. Slight edge. I do believe there's more stuff out there to increase Longbow range increments than there are to increase Catapult Range.

And since an arrow flight is a fraction of a round, and you could litter the area with several shots from an archer, it's probably the best idea for a fast delivery service.

... unless breaking it stops the Dead magic zone effect instead of letting you keep it (Or have a reduced range effect).

[Lysander]

You don't need to have the stone instantly appear next to your target. You just need to envelope them in the anti-magic field quickly.

Why not just have a trained bird (ideally a familiar or animal companion) carry the stone in its talons and just fly over them? A bird can travel 1 mile in no time. By the time they realize what's going on it'll be too late.

[Humble Master]

You don't need to have the stone instantly appear next to your target. You just need to envelope them in the anti-magic field quickly.

Why not just have a trained bird (ideally a familiar or animal companion) carry the stone in its talons and just fly over them? A bird can travel 1 mile in no time. By the time they realize what's going on it'll be too late. "It could grip it by the husk!"

"It's not a matter of were it grips it, it's a simple matter of weight ratio! A 5 ounce bird can't carry a 1 pound dead magic rock!"

Depending on the weight of the stone you would probably need something larger than a hawk or crow familiar.

[shaikujin]

Depends on the unladen carrying capacity of the bird. Are we talking about the European species or the African species?


Sorry, had to :)

[Mutazoia]

You guys misunderstand. The difficulty I'm running into here isn't to steal it; whatever defenses must be mundane and can therefore be bypassed by mundane means. The problem is to take it, bring it somewhere else (preferably hastily) and use it against unsuspecting enemies. If you have a constant, one-mile radius dead magic zone around you at all times, people kind of get a feeling that something's coming as soon as their magic fizzles out. I was just wondering if there was a convoluted way of, perhaps, spiriting it away into some kind of alternate plane and pluck it out from there when you need it or something like that. If it were just a regular emanation or spread, I'd just stick it in a box and put that in a bag of holding or something, but obviously that's not possible here...

Air Drop. Not the magical kind....Hot air balloons, or fly in on a Roc or other flying creature. If you fly about half a mile above your target then they're not going to be able to shoot you down and you can circle the area until your done with them. With out magic your not going to be able to pull it from an alternate plane or anthing like that...your going to be stuck with mundane means.