Sneaky mounted combat

[kulosle]

So i don't know how this would work, but I got the idea and now i really want to do it. Basically I want to be riding a mount and still able to sneak up on people and pick pocket them and other such shenanigans. I've looked at a lot of mounted classes and none of them have hide and move silently as class skills. Also I don't even know what major benefits i could get out of being a sneaky character on a mount. I assume i'd have to be small size which i'm fine with.

Any ideas?

[CRtwenty]

Two words... Dire Rhinoceros. Because everything seems stealthy in comparison to that.

[Quirp]

Your best bet, since both you and your mount should be able to sneak, would be a class with a caster level and hide, move silently and sleight of hand as class skills. Having found that (spellthief (CAdv), beguiler (PHB2)) taking the feats obtain familiar (CArc?) and improved familiar (DMG) should allow you to choose a ridable familiar that uses your hide and move silently skills. If you get to switch out its standard feats, you can give it darkstalker (LoM) for effective sneaking. A collar of umbral metamorphosis (ToM) should finish the thing.

[kulosle]

ha ha ha, well obviously i'll need a stealthy mount. Still looking into good mount options. If anyone knows of a particularly good mount let me know.

Edit: Oh wow Green Spawn Leaper sounds awesome as a mount.

[Snowbluff]

I don't remember if it is wild plains or halfling outrider, but one of those two lets you use your hide in place of your animal's.

[BowStreetRunner]

I don't remember if it is wild plains or halfling outrider, but one of those two lets you use your hide in place of your animal's.

It's Wild Plains Outrider from Complete Adventurer. You can use your Hide and Move Silently. But while Move Silently is a class skill, Hide isn't.

[Karnith]

It's Wild Plains Outrider from Complete Adventurer. You can use your Hide and Move Silently. But while Move Silently is a class skill, Hide isn't.
Also, it only lets your mount use your skill ranks rather than your own, so it won't get any other bonuses that you might get (like, say, from items, high ability scores, or size) unless they also apply to other creatures.

[CyberThread]

Three suggestions


Use a mount that does not need metal shoes, like horses so soft paws and the like (dogs , big cats, that stuff)


If this is a huge goal and you take halfling outrider , get a collar of meta whatever from tome of magic, that gets you the dark template for the cost of item space and gold , large boost to your stealth skills.


Last suggestion there is a prc called crinit shadow maruders, which is a sort of a mix of shadow dancer + sneak attack + you can do this all with your mount.

[kulosle]

collar of umbral metamorphosis

where in the book is this? I can't seem to find it.

Also what governs what can and cannot be an improved familiar, i read the feat and it doesn't specify what you can get besides a small list, it then says anything of approximately the same power. Whats approximately the same?

[Karnith]

where in the book is this? I can't seem to find it.
Tome of Magic, p. 156.

[Vaz]

Make yourself as small as possible.

Bamboo Spirit Folk Wu Jen/Incantatrix 3/Archivist/Arcane Hierophant/Wild Plains Outrider. You need Obtain Familiar for Wu Jen.

Polymorph both you and your into a Skulk, Persist+Extend. The skulk has a +15 racial modifier.

Minute Form with a CL of 19+. Through the share spells, have yourself take Fine, have your mount Diminutive.

Get two Collars of Umbral Metamorphosis, one for yourself, one for your mount.

You're now a Fine Sized creature riding a diminutive mount with (Ex) hide in plain sight, and a Dex mod out the wazoo, and your mount using your Skill Ranks. Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight for Hilarity. If you can fit it in take Archmage and enjoy Persistent Body Outside Body Clones using Wish SLA's for free.

If you go for an Improved Familiar, take a Mirror Mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, IIRC). It has CL8 Simulacrum as an SLA. Basically, any 16HD creature or less you can think of under your familiar's (and hence, yours) command.

[Andezzar]

You're now a Fine Sized creature riding a diminutive mount with (Ex) hide in plain sight, and a Dex mod out the wazoo, and your mount using your Skill Ranks. Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight for Hilarity. If you can fit it in take Archmage and enjoy Persistent Body Outside Body Clones using Wish SLA's for free.While this probably won't be an issue if your fine sized, the Ex HiPS from the Dark Creature Template/Collar of Umbral metamorphosis still requires cover or concealment. It only allows hiding while being observed. There is another (newer) Dark Creature Template in Cormyr - The Tearing of the Weave p. 152 which is SU but does not require you to get cover or concealment.

[CyberThread]

and you know that is entirely late game, and what will he/she do before all that?


Look into the crinti shadow maruaders and that horse mount class in five nations.

[kulosle]

Yeah i'd like the build to work as early as possible, I really like the sound of a beguiler riding a greenspawn leaper. Could i take it as an improved familiar?

[Vaz]

and you know that is entirely late game, and what will he/she do before all that?


Look into the crinti shadow maruaders and that horse mount class in five nations.

You're a Caster with access to Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Divine Bard, potentially Wizard/Sorcerer, and Wu Jen spells with ~3-4 dropped levels. Knock yourself out.

If you can't find use for Persisted Heroics and Bite of the Werebear as a Mounted Combatant, you're not trying hard enough.

[CyberThread]

Greenspawn Leaper (Spawn of Tiamat)
Medium magical beast(dragonblood)
View image
Image © Wizards of the Coast
Hit Dice: 3
Alignment: NE
Environment: Temperate/Warm Forests
Home plane: Material
Challenge Rating: 2
Found in Monster Manual IV, page 144




As it is a spawn, I doubt it. Ask your DM for homebrew allowance.




Take a look at this prc then see if you like it at all


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4

[Urpriest]

Also what governs what can and cannot be an improved familiar, i read the feat and it doesn't specify what you can get besides a small list, it then says anything of approximately the same power. Whats approximately the same?

Like anything defined by a list, it's anything on the list, anything added to the list in other sources, and anything houseruled to be on the list. The latter is what the "approximately the same power" rule means.

[kulosle]

Knight Phantom actually does sound pretty cool, the main problem is that the phantom steed is a large sized creature and with how many dungeons and tight spaces my gm likes to throw us into i don't think it would be optimal.

[CyberThread]

ask the DM to make it race appropriate, if you are a small creature, make it medium level mount. A human would summon a worse, a gnome would summon a pony?

[Urpriest]

Knight Phantom actually does sound pretty cool, the main problem is that the phantom steed is a large sized creature and with how many dungeons and tight spaces my gm likes to throw us into i don't think it would be optimal.

Eh, the Phantom Steed can't fight, and its speed is ginormous. I don't think it will be a problem to just have it Squeeze everywhere it goes. Unless your DM regularly puts you in 3 foot tunnels.

[Emmerask]

So i don't know how this would work, but I got the idea and now i really want to do it. Basically I want to be riding a mount and still able to sneak up on people and pick pocket them and other such shenanigans. I've looked at a lot of mounted classes and none of them have hide and move silently as class skills. Also I don't even know what major benefits i could get out of being a sneaky character on a mount. I assume i'd have to be small size which i'm fine with.

Any ideas?

why would you want to do such a thing?
Lets see, the best place to pick a pocket is a crowded street and being inconspicuous... riding besides someone in arms reach is not really low-key ie they would draw aside.
So what you would need is them not noticing you at all... which is kind of hard with an animal head at the left or right hand side right next to you (especially if its an unusual animal like a dire panther or somesuch)...

The more I think about the more goofy the whole scenario becomes...

The sheer amount of stuff that can go wrong with this stunt is quite staggering and just... unneeded (ie stupid really)

I mean yeah it could work at high levels against some low level commoners... but then again you are high level why would you try to steal a few copper pieces?

[CyberThread]

Eh, the Phantom Steed can't fight, and its speed is ginormous. I don't think it will be a problem to just have it Squeeze everywhere it goes. Unless your DM regularly puts you in 3 foot tunnels.


What sort of math are you looking at with such a high speed if you used the spell for charger builds?

[Emmerask]

Chargers are not really the sneakiest of builds though :smallwink:

[CyberThread]

You have a ghost for a horse, what part of it is loud when you rush towards someone on an object that makes no noise?

[Urpriest]

What sort of math are you looking at with such a high speed if you used the spell for charger builds?

I'm not sure what you mean. Speed doesn't really use D&D math, so if you were charging while squeezing (which I think is possible) then you would make two move actions at half speed, so overall you'd move your speed before your attack. Is that what you're asking about?

[Emmerask]

You have a ghost for a horse, what part of it is loud when you rush towards someone on an object that makes no noise?

Its not really a ghost, its quasi real but the hooves indeed make no sound and are insubstantial (the rest though isnt), however you/your equipment will make sounds ^^
And of course hiding becomes a lot harder.

[CyberThread]

I'm not sure what you mean. Speed doesn't really use D&D math, so if you were charging while squeezing (which I think is possible) then you would make two move actions at half speed, so overall you'd move your speed before your attack. Is that what you're asking about?

Aww thought charger builds used speed to do increased damage, sorry.



Its not really a ghost, its quasi real but the hooves indeed make no sound and are insubstantial (the rest though isnt), however you/your equipment will make sounds ^^
And of course hiding becomes a lot harder.

True...move at half speed so you can use your move silently skill....so your stuck only moving 110 move speed , so "slow" :P


Lets not forget either...your mount can fly, walk on water, and is immune to some common difficult terrain types. Meaning you can charge from areas that your bad guys might have thought were immune due to the habit of armies to form near natural boundires for defensive needs.

[kulosle]

Well i assumed magic would be involved. Invisibility goes a long way to keeping things low key. I know this isn't optimal, it just sounds like loads of fun. And in truth, i haven't even come up with one thing this character has over any other sneak, it's just fun. Not everything needs to be optimal.

On that note, is there any good reason to be a mounted sneak? Like i want to think of some cools things for this guy to do, but i'm drawing a blank.

[Emmerask]

This is the thing, I do not know any advantage you could have for being a mounted sneak... and I dont have anything against unusual concepts that are suboptimal... but they should atleast give some advantage in some form, no matter how many disadvantages ^^



Lets not forget either...your mount can fly, walk on water, and is immune to some common difficult terrain types. Meaning you can charge from areas that your bad guys might have thought were immune due to the habit of armies to form near natural boundires for defensive needs.

Yes but the thing is you could have all these advantages without a mount too

[TuggyNE]

Horseshoe digression:
Use a mount that does not need metal shoes, like horses so soft paws and the like (dogs , big cats, that stuff)

Technically, horses don't actually need metal shoes, or any shoes at all; wild horses get along OK with just their hooves, and shoeing is something of a bad habit horsemen picked up during centuries of terrible stall conditions, when it was more practical to stick some iron on the hoof to keep it together than to remove the moisture and other problems from the stall. These days, barefoot trimming is becoming more common, since modern stall materials can handle things better.

[CyberThread]

Am not sure as far as that, but if you want "mounted" for the reason that it is unusual, and you still have the freedom to chose race.


May I suggest a BARIAUR using the lesser rules, the race can be found in planar handbook , and is unusual choice for stealth things, but has anything bad against it besides a +2 str -2 cha.

[Andezzar]

I'm not sure what you mean. Speed doesn't really use D&D math, so if you were charging while squeezing (which I think is possible) then you would make two move actions at half speed, so overall you'd move your speed before your attack. Is that what you're asking about?
That is not possible:
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.