[3.P] Sorc//Summoner ideas

[Crake]

Ok, so I've joined a pathfinder gestalt game where I've gone a summoner//sorc (not the best combination I know, but I had a character idea that it fitted well with). My DM has allowed me to take dragon disciple on my sorcerer side but to lose spellcasting from my summoner side (while keeping the eidolon at max power) so I'm planning on taking that.

As a human my abilities are 10 str, 14 dex, 17 con, 16 int, 13 wis and 17(+2=19) cha

So far my 1st level spells on my summoner side are Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat and (since we just leveled up to 3 this one isnt 100% just yet) Ant Haul.

My 1st level spells on my sorc side are Magic Weapon (which i'll retrain once i get greater magic weapon) Color Spray, Mage Armor (From draconic bloodline) and Ray of Enfeeblement.

Feats are Eschew Materials (sorc bonus feat) Extra evolution and Improved Initiative (which I'm thinking about retraining [phb2 rules] right now, since I can get it as a bloodline feat) and my level 3 feat which I have yet to pick.

Now since my DM has let me get full sorc spell progression (at the expense of summoner spell progression) with dragon disciple would it be worth going a gish-y build with this? If so, what sort of things should I pick up? I was thinking Arcane Armor Training and grabbing a mithril chain shirt, later picking up Arcane Armor Mastery and picking up a mithril breastplate or something?

I did notice that dragon disciple no longer gets dragon apothesis (guessing thats subsumed mostly by the level 20 dragon bloodline thing) which means I lose out on 4 str and 2 cha compared to the 3.5 dragon disciple, which makes me wonder if this build would be viable with only 14 str by the end?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Andvare]

I would not go with a gish build. You already have an amazing beatstick in the form of an Eidolon. I'd go with a battlefield controller, perhaps even a blast-controller (Rime Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/rime-spell-metamagic) and/or Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic)), as you have the sorcerer's spells to do that. Stopping the enemy, while the fury of an Eidolon is beating them to a pulp, that would work great I think.
I would also not take Ant Haul, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon nor Magic Weapon (at least not unless you plan to use Magic Weapon on your team mates). I'd go with Grease instead of Ant Haul, your Eidolon can carry plenty, and Infernal Healing instead of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, because then you can also heal others a bit, and it is on average better until you reach level 5, at which time you should have other forms of healing (or Shield or Protection From Evil if you have a healer in the party).
Instead of Magic Weapon, I'd probably go with Magic Arrow coupled with Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) and Toppling Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic), and you have quite a good 1st level control spell.

To me it sounds like a good mix. Full caster + awesome fighter companion, both based on charisma.
Be warned though, I have never played a gestalt game.

[Jormengand]

What are you doing with DD levels? Take the half-dragon template instead. You lose less spellcasting and get better ability scores.

[Crake]

What are you doing with DD levels? Take the half-dragon template instead. You lose less spellcasting and get better ability scores.

The game started at ECL 1, so I couldnt get the half dragon template. Dragon disciple was more along the idea of awakening my character's draconic heritage. And as I already said, my DM let me trade away my summoner casting (which isnt full progression anyway) instead of my sorc casting.


I would not go with a gish build. You already have an amazing beatstick in the form of an Eidolon. I'd go with a battlefield controller, perhaps even a blast-controller (Rime Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/rime-spell-metamagic) and/or Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic)), as you have the sorcerer's spells to do that. Stopping the enemy, while the fury of an Eidolon is beating them to a pulp, that would work great I think.
I would also not take Ant Haul, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon nor Magic Weapon (at least not unless you plan to use Magic Weapon on your team mates). I'd go with Grease instead of Ant Haul, your Eidolon can carry plenty, and Infernal Healing instead of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, because then you can also heal others a bit, and it is on average better until you reach level 5, at which time you should have other forms of healing (or Shield or Protection From Evil if you have a healer in the party).
Instead of Magic Weapon, I'd probably go with Magic Arrow coupled with Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) and Toppling Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic), and you have quite a good 1st level control spell.

To me it sounds like a good mix. Full caster + awesome fighter companion, both based on charisma.
Be warned though, I have never played a gestalt game.

Sadly Rime spell is a little out of character considering that he's a brass dragon lineage sorcerer, so I probably wont pick up that, and Dazing spell is a bit out of my league for now, not even being able to cast 2nd level spells.

I did decide to pick up prot from evil over ant haul though, since I can see it being very useful (likely most of the stuff we're gonna fight will be evil). Infernal healing might actually be quite in character since my eidolon is being fluffed as an aspect of an Erinyes (and i'm gonna be building her much like one through the evolution points) so my DM would probably let me use a drop of her blood for the material component. We already have a healer in the party, but I'd like some options of my own incase we ever get split up. I will also likely be using Magic Weapon to buff the party ranger//rogue and fighter (the fighter is a current hireling/future cohort of one of the other characters) so I think I'll keep magic weapon for now. It's served me pretty well in combat so far as well.

For my level 3 feat I'm thinking about picking up eclectic(Summoner) to give my eidolon +3 hp via the human alternate favoured class options since my character currently has more HP than she does (despite the DM letting her take max dice at 1st level)

[Jormengand]

The game started at ECL 1, so I couldnt get the half dragon template. Dragon disciple was more along the idea of awakening my character's draconic heritage. And as I already said, my DM let me trade away my summoner casting (which isnt full progression anyway) instead of my sorc casting.

For a start, it's acquired or inherited, so you can get it after first level. Also, the LA starts wearing off at 6th level and is gone at 11th, so it's not the end of the world.

[Crake]

For a start, it's acquired or inherited, so you can get it after first level. Also, the LA starts wearing off at 6th level and is gone at 11th, so it's not the end of the world.

Oh, I've spent most of my gaming career playing 3.5 where it was inherited only, so I didn't realise. I guess I could inquire with my DM as to whether I could pick it up somewhere down the line?

Also, at least based on what I understand from the Monsters as PCs section, Half dragon essentially works out to +2 "CR", only 1 of which can be "bought off", at level 5 (2 CR+3 levels is when I would get a "second level" for free) and since it can only be done a number of times equal to half CR, I'd only get that once, so in the end I'd be a level behind on one of my character sides

[Jormengand]

Oh, I've spent most of my gaming career playing 3.5 where it was inherited only, so I didn't realise. I guess I could inquire with my DM as to whether I could pick it up somewhere down the line?

I guess. Also, it only gives you 2 LA, it's all gone by 11th level, and medium H-Ds get wings. Woo!

I guess that you could acquire it after getting all your DD levels (so that you aren't breaking the entry requirements for DD) and end up with +12 STR, but at that kind of level you're better off doing something different with your class levels (like actually taking the sorc/summoner to full level) and your DM would probably slap you.

[Crake]

I guess. Also, it only gives you 2 LA, it's all gone by 11th level, and medium H-Ds get wings. Woo!

I guess that you could acquire it after getting all your DD levels (so that you aren't breaking the entry requirements for DD) and end up with +12 STR, but at that kind of level you're better off doing something different with your class levels (like actually taking the sorc/summoner to full level) and your DM would probably slap you.

Could you explain to me how the CR/LA system works in pathfinder? I'm not really seeing how it all goes away by 11.

Also my DM is actually quite liberal, so I actually wouldn't be suprised if he lets me do it after DD is finished. (Assuming the campaign runs that long)

Edit: Also looking at the half dragon entry, it would seem that the half dragon breath weapon would be useless since it's tied to racial HD, of which I have none, so it would deal no damage. That said, the ability boosts are still nice, as are the early wings. It'll really depend on whether my DM lets me pick it up though.

[Jormengand]

Could you explain to me how the CR/LA system works in pathfinder? I'm not really seeing how it all goes away by 11.

Also my DM is actually quite liberal, so I actually wouldn't be suprised if he lets me do it after DD is finished. (Assuming the campaign runs that long)

Well, assuming that you don't claim that because LA is technically not a thing in PF, they aren't a LA template, you use this as a guideline instead:


RP Level
1–5 6–10 11–15 16–20
20 +1 level +0 level +0 level +0 level
30 +2 level +1 level +0 level +0 level
40 +3 level +2 level +1 level +0 level

H-D is worth about 30 RP, making it +2 LA at 1-5 level, +1 LA at 6-10 level and +0 LA at 11+ level.


Edit: Also looking at the half dragon entry, it would seem that the half dragon breath weapon would be useless since it's tied to racial HD, of which I have none, so it would deal no damage. That said, the ability boosts are still nice, as are the early wings. It'll really depend on whether my DM lets me pick it up though.
This is why I would personally Gestalt with Dragon racial HD, and also so that you have high BAB, all high saves and D12 HD.

[Crake]

Well, assuming that you don't claim that because LA is technically not a thing in PF, they aren't a LA template, you use this as a guideline instead:



H-D is worth about 30 RP, making it +2 LA at 1-5 level, +1 LA at 6-10 level and +0 LA at 11+ level.


This is why I would personally Gestalt with Dragon racial HD, and also so that you have high BAB, all high saves and D12 HD.

Hmm, ok, well I'll present the idea to my DM, see what he thinks.

[Snowbluff]

How about do neither? Unless you got something planned, how about you be a synthesis summoner, and just make yourself dragon...y that way. :smalltongue:

[Crake]

How about do neither? Unless you got something planned, how about you be a synthesis summoner, and just make yourself dragon...y that way. :smalltongue:

You'll have to forgive me, I'm still fairly new to pathfinder, so I have no idea what that means. Roleplay wise, my summoner side and sorcerer side are fairly disconnected. My eidolon is an aspect of an erinyes who wants to draw my soul to hell to help fight on the devil's side in the blood war (and maybe in the process grab a promotion), but she's having a hard time since my chaotic good dragon blood is kinda strong, so its been making it hard to corrupt me. I was thinking stepping into dragon disciple as a way of showing just how strong my dragon blood is (not just a trace, but actually quite substantial), so my choices are centered around that kind of concept. My summoner side is infernal and my sorcerer side is draconic, which is why I don't want to mix them up if possible

[Snowbluff]

You'll have to forgive me, I'm still fairly new to pathfinder, so I have no idea what that means. Roleplay wise, my summoner side and sorcerer side are fairly disconnected. My eidolon is an aspect of an erinyes who wants to draw my soul to hell to help fight on the devil's side in the blood war (and maybe in the process grab a promotion), but she's having a hard time since my chaotic good dragon blood is kinda strong, so its been making it hard to corrupt me. I was thinking stepping into dragon disciple as a way of showing just how strong my dragon blood is (not just a trace, but actually quite substantial), so my choices are centered around that kind of concept. My summoner side is infernal and my sorcerer side is draconic, which is why I don't want to mix them up if possible

Okay, if that how you want it to be great, but I'll show you what I mean.

Here is the Archetype for Summoner. (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)


A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).

Essentially what this means if that you give yourself eidolon evolutions. You can give yourself wings, claws, anything your eidolon can get. You could use this to make yourself more like a dragon, or add on some demonic aspects if you feel the need. :smallsmile:

[Crake]

Okay, if that how you want it to be great, but I'll show you what I mean.

Here is the Archetype for Summoner. (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)



Essentially what this means if that you give yourself eidolon evolutions. You can give yourself wings, claws, anything your eidolon can get. You could use this to make yourself more like a dragon, or add on some demonic aspects if you feel the need. :smallsmile:

So its sorta like a binder from 3.5? Thats pretty cool, but yeah, not really what i'm after

[Snowbluff]

So its sorta like a binder from 3.5? Thats pretty cool, but yeah, not really what i'm after

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that you are pretty much Binding your Eidolon. No in that your evolutions are static unless you use a spell or ACF to have them changed. Keep that in mind for building your eidolon, Synthesist or not; The eidolon's evolutions should be planned out ahead of time.

I also suggest Half-Elf for the bonus evo points.

[Crake]

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that you are pretty much Binding your Eidolon. No in that your evolutions are static unless you use a spell or ACF to have them changed. Keep that in mind for building your eidolon, Synthesist or not; The eidolon's evolutions should be planned out ahead of time.

I also suggest Half-Elf for the bonus evo points.

Yeah I went with human for the sorcerer side, extra spells known. Having my eidolon based around an erinyes also makes it nice and easy to plan the evolutions, just give her stuff that an erinyes would have, energy resistances, fire immunity (sadly I cant find a way to give her poison immunity) flight 50ft, i also gave her reach and a greataxe, because who doesnt love those, and Unnatural Aura, because why bother fighting a whole type of monsters when you can just make them run away in fear.

I didnt want to give her large size, but me and my DM settled on a powerful build evolution that costs 2 points, gives half the bonuses that large gives (rounded toward 0 to the nearest +2 for abilities) and otherwise gives my eidolon the powerful build ability that goliaths and half giants get (with no visible physical changes)

[HunterOfJello]

screw summoner

Play Sorcerer/Geomancer//Druid.

Use geomancer to switch your casting stats to charisma and go crazy with charisma adding abilities and all the great class features pure druid gives you.

I used that build a long while back and had an insane amount of fun with it. Druids are crazy awesome summoners and Sorcerer fills up all the gaps that are missing on the druid spell list.

[Crake]

screw summoner

Play Sorcerer/Geomancer//Druid.

Use geomancer to switch your casting stats to charisma and go crazy with charisma adding abilities and all the great class features pure druid gives you.

I used that build a long while back and had an insane amount of fun with it. Druids are crazy awesome summoners and Sorcerer fills up all the gaps that are missing on the druid spell list.

Well first off the summoner is based around the eidolon, I actually traded away the ability to use summon monster for my eidolon gaining a bonus to saves vs dismissal/banishment effects and my eidolon persisting while i'm unconscious/sleeping (homebrew), so I'm not interested in "summoning" per-se, as much as having "a summon", and the game's already started, so I cant exactly just swap over to that build. Not to mention it doesnt really fit with my character at all