AC of a fireball bead? (PF if it matters)

[Mr.Sandman]

Greetings again playground. In a recent pathfinder session we were up against a Lich, the base one in the book. The first turn he put up his globe of invulnerability, and maximized fireball was all of our guess for his next turn. Our crossbow wielding rogue had the idea to aim for his hand with a readied action, and shoot as soon as he started casting, hopeing to hit the bead that forms, creating a premature detonation and harming the lich with his own spell. He missed spectacularly, but what would the AC of that little thing be anyway? Are there other spells where we could do a similar thing?

[Scow2]

It would be a fine object, possibly with the Lich's DEX mod as well.

[Deophaun]

The AC of the little bead is AC:No. There is simply no time between "Lich casts fireball" and "Big Boom at Long range" for that action to take place. Besides, even if you could have hit it, you guys missed the fact that the Lich was in a globe of invulnerability. The fireball would have done nothing.

Your archer could have used his readied action to shoot the Lich and forced a Concentration check on a hit, which might have ruined the spell.

[Drachasor]

The smallest size is Diminutive which gives a +8 AC bonus. A bead doesn't dodge or try to avoid an attack. That's a base of 18.

I don't know what its dexterity would be. It's not 0, since it isn't inanimate. One could split the difference at 18 or say that it since it is so fast it might have a Dexterity of 14 or 16 or 20 or whatever (really it is just a guess).

So, I'd say somewhere between 18 and 25.

[Mr.Sandman]

A maximized fireball has a spell level above 3, and it was cast from within the globe already, the spell description says if the bead hits something before the target it explodes as though on target, it would take some timeing, but don't all attack rolls?

[Crustypeanut]

The 'bead' is made of magic, and cannot be attacked by regular weapons. The rogue can attack the Lich himself, hoping to interrupt the spell as it is being cast, but without house rules, you cannot attack the bead of magic itself.

If, by houserule, it was allowed, my guess is it would be a Fine object with the Lich's Dex mod, as well.

[Sceluvia]

I do not know for sure, but i would've ruled it like:
Take -4 penalty to hit (for precision shot) and then hit AC of the user (in this case the Lich's AC). and then it would hit and detonate.

Then again the fireball would detonate but not do any damage because of the globe of invulnerability.

[Deophaun]

A maximized fireball has a spell level above 3,
No. A maximized Fireball has a spell level of 3, and uses a spell slot of 6. It is not Heighten spell with benefits.

[Drachasor]

The 'bead' is made of magic, and cannot be attacked by regular weapons. The rogue can attack the Lich himself, hoping to interrupt the spell as it is being cast, but without house rules, you cannot attack the bead of magic itself.

If, by houserule, it was allowed, my guess is it would be a Fine object with the Lich's Dex mod, as well.


You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The quoted text is self-explanatory.

[Deophaun]

The quoted text is self-explanatory.
Yup, fireballs interact with material items.

Stil doesn't get around the fact that, by the rules of readied actions, you would be attacking something that did not yet exist.

[Mr.Sandman]

He was inside the globe casting it, does the effect become suppressed upon entering the globe, or is the entire globe a suppressing influence? If the entire area of the globe is a suppressor how can the caster cast spells below the blocked level from within? Are their own spells immune to the effect? And if so, would this not work off fo that immunity?

[Drachasor]

Yup, fireballs interact with material items.

Stil doesn't get around the fact that, by the rules of readied actions, you would be attacking something that did not yet exist.

No, it works in 3.5 and PF:


You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

The triggered action is part of the fireball spell effect, so this interrupts the fireball. I think that takes precedence over the preceding line.

Beyond that, it's just a semantic argument. Specify the trigger as "when the fireball bead is 1 inch away from the Lich" and it works fine. So we shouldn't fret over such things when the intent of the player is clear.

[Drachasor]

He was inside the globe casting it, does the effect become suppressed upon entering the globe, or is the entire globe a suppressing influence? If the entire area of the globe is a suppressor how can the caster cast spells below the blocked level from within? Are their own spells immune to the effect? And if so, would this not work off fo that immunity?

Err, just read the spell text? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/globe-of-invulnerability)

All the globe does is stop spells and spell-like abilities from affecting people inside the area. If the Lich casts a fireball at his feat, then it hits everyone outside of the globe.

[Deophaun]

No, it works in 3.5 and PF:
Except you aren't interrupting anything. Effects are all determined at the end of casting. Once you finished casting, spell effects occur. There is no time in between. So, if you're readying an action for a fireball being shot at you, your readied action takes place before the spell is cast, not in the middle of it. This is why you can't ruin a lightning bolt by readying an action to 5-ft step.

He was inside the globe casting it, does the effect become suppressed upon entering the globe, or is the entire globe a suppressing influence? If the entire area of the globe is a suppressor how can the caster cast spells below the blocked level from within? Are their own spells immune to the effect? And if so, would this not work off fo that immunity?
Well, what happens if we read the spell description?

However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe.

[Mr.Sandman]

So the spell is a full suppressing effect on the entire area, not a barrier effect. Oh well, it didn't work anyway, but was an interesting thought experiment. Thank you all for your help.

[Drachasor]

Except you aren't interrupting anything. Effects are all determined at the end of casting. Once you finished casting, spell effects occur. There is no time in between. So, if you're readying an action for a fireball being shot at you, your readied action takes place before the spell is cast, not in the middle of it. This is why you can't ruin a lightning bolt by readying an action to 5-ft step.

If fireball didn't explicitly have text saying a bead travelled forth, etc, etc, then you'd be right. However, it does have such text. Stuff does happen before it explodes. There is explicitly something to interrupt there.

It's just like you can ready an action to trip someone making a charge. The guy making the charge might be just making one action, but that doesn't mean it can't be viewed as multiple actions.

Rules as written, as least in the SRD, I don't see why you couldn't ready an action to get out of a lightning bolt. This basically never happens, of course. Why? Because usually there's a lot better things to be doing with your time.

[Scow2]

Except you aren't interrupting anything. Effects are all determined at the end of casting. Once you finished casting, spell effects occur. There is no time in between. So, if you're readying an action for a fireball being shot at you, your readied action takes place before the spell is cast, not in the middle of it. This is why you can't ruin a lightning bolt by readying an action to 5-ft step.

Except there IS time in between! You're essentially arguing that all movement is teleportation. The fireball bead is fast, yes - it can shoot off to its maximum range and blow everything up in the same standard action it's cast. However, someone can ready an action to interrupt the standard action after it starts but before it finishes, allowing the bead to be shot by a clever-thinking player. And you CAN ruin a Lightning Bolt to 5-foot-step out of the way.

[Deophaun]

If fireball didn't explicitly have text saying a bead travelled forth, etc, etc, then you'd be right. However, it does have such text. Stuff does happen before it explodes. There is explicitly something to interrupt there.

It's just like you can ready an action to trip someone making a charge. The guy making the charge might be just making one action, but that doesn't mean it can't be viewed as multiple actions.

Rules as written, as least in the SRD, I don't see why you couldn't ready an action to get out of a lightning bolt. This basically never happens, of course. Why? Because usually there's a lot better things to be doing with your time.

No. Let's read Fireball's entry, shall we?


Duration:Instantaneous
What is Instantaneous?

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting

So, what's going on with the fireball?

-Does it travel to the target? Yes, it does. At some point, it occupies every square of space between the source and the target.

-Can I ready an action before it enters a space? Yes. You can ready an action to move when it comes within 10 feet of you.

-What is the moment before it comes within 10 feet of me? The moment before the spell was cast.

Being instantaneous, that fireball occupies every position simultaneously. When it is 1 foot away from the lich, it is also in the lich's hand, and it is also 400 feet away, blowing up. So, if you were to try to shoot it before it got 1 foot away from the lich, you would have to shoot it before it existed, because it literally takes no time to travel to its target.

Now, if the game said that you create a fireball that has a fly speed of 400 + 40 ft/level and it may take a move action to travel in a straight line to its target, then you would have something to interrupt. But, it doesn't say that. It says that it happens instantaneously.

[Drachasor]

Being instantaneous, that fireball occupies every position simultaneously.

That "interpretation" is contradictory to the spell's description. In other words, it simply is not true. The flight of a the fireball and explosion might only take a moment or two, but it does take time. It's just not time that normally matters. Much like how long it takes an arrow to fly from a bow to the target.

If Fireball didn't have the bead text, then you'd be right. It does have that text however, and it isn't something you can ignore just because you don't like what it says.

Edit: Further, instantaneous effects can create things that last a long time. Like Wall of Stone. Fireball creates a bead that shoots out and then explodes. So this "instantaneous" business you are trying to wave around just doesn't work the way you think it does.

[Deophaun]

That "interpretation" is contradictory to the spell's description. In other words, it simply is not true.
You would have to show me where it's contradictory. The fact that the bead travels at Warp 10 is consistent both with the bead traveling, and with the fact that it is instantaneous.

You are the one who is ignoring the text to come to a predetermined conclusion.

Edit: BTW, this is the exact same logic you would need in order for an arrow to have any shot at hitting it (which, strangely, is how arrows work: they also take no time to travel to their target; it's just the rules for readied actions prevent them from working as Patriot missiles)

[Scow2]

You would have to show me where it's contradictory. The fact that the bead travels at Warp 10 is consistent both with the bead traveling, and with the fact that it is instantaneous.

You are the one who is ignoring the text to come to a predetermined conclusion.
You can shoot something traveling at Warp 10 if you ready the action to do so.

[Drachasor]

You would have to show me where it's contradictory. The fact that the bead travels at Warp 10 is consistent both with the bead traveling, and with the fact that it is instantaneous.

You are the one who is ignoring the text to come to a predetermined conclusion.

Travelling at infinite speed is not travelling. Being in all places at once is not moving.

It moves and has a velocity. This is non-infinite. As such a readied action can be taken against it. It doesn't matter how fast it is moving. 9/10th the speed of light? The rules still let you ready an action against it.


Edit: BTW, this is the exact same logic you would need in order for an arrow to have any shot at hitting it (which, strangely, is how arrows work: they also take no time to travel to their target; it's just the rules for readied actions prevent them from working as Patriot missiles)

You seem to be confusing D&D with a FPS that uses hit-scan bullets. In the round system tracking the speed of projectiles doesn't matter. That doesn't mean they magically teleport or have infinite velocity. It just means that the units of time that are being used to measure the action are too long to allow you to measure the speed of certain phenomena. Also, it would really slow the game down if you had to keep track of all that.

The rules are not designed so that everything that is allowed must be explicitly stated to be allowed. It is not a computer game.

[Deophaun]

Edit: Further, instantaneous effects can create things that last a long time. Like Wall of Stone. Fireball creates a bead that shoots out and then explodes. So this "instantaneous" business you are trying to wave around just doesn't work the way you think it does.
Ah, in that case, since the magical energies dissipated, that would mean the bead and the resulting blast are not magical, and therefore work perfectly fine in a globe of invulnerability...

...except no. So, yeah. You're wrong.

[Deophaun]

It moves and has a velocity. This is non-infinite. As such a readied action can be taken against it. It doesn't matter how fast it is moving. 9/10th the speed of light? The rules still let you ready an action against it.
Where's the velocity? What's its move speed? I'm looking at the text. Where is that listed?

Or are you just making things up again?

[Drachasor]

Ah, in that case, since the magical energies dissipated, that would mean the bead and the resulting blast are not magical, and therefore work perfectly fine in a globe of invulnerability...

...except no. So, yeah. You're wrong.

Not if the spell creates magical energy and launches it. The spell energy can dissipate, but that doesn't change the magical nature of the attack. That fits within the description of Evocation magic.

Though one could also argue that "instantaneously" means "momentary" and hence allows for a non-zero duration. The round system simply doesn't allow for the measurement of it because it is so quick.


Where's the velocity? What's its move speed? I'm looking at the text. Where is that listed?

Or are you just making things up again?

Again, it isn't a computer game. The speed doesn't need to be stated. It isn't relevant to any action. And all allowable actions and interactions do not need to be explicitly stated and spelled out. That's at least half the point of playing P&P RPGs, so that the DM can handle creativity and things that the rules don't explicitly cover.

[Deophaun]

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[Drachasor]

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[Lord Haart]

The fact that the bead travels at Warp 10 is consistent both with the bead traveling, and with the fact that it is instantaneous.Very well. The bead travels at Warp 10. Fighter dude who can trip the Tarrasque, survive a kilometer-long fall several times over, fight underwater for twenty minutes and be okay after eight hours of rest, make a fort save against being decapitated by a professional executioner while bound and unconscious, sunder a twenty-foot thick stone wall in one go and stand naked against three hundred normal warriors for as long as it takes for them to perish and for him to get moderately battered by natural-twenties-confirmed-by-another-natural-twenty — and that's without weeaboo Tome of Battle muscle-flexing — readies an action to fire an arrow (which also travels at Warp 10, slowing only when in a monk's aura) an infinitesmall moment before the spell goes off, so two Warp-10 missiles collide in the air infinitesmall moment after that and disperse into radiation. Because at the level you normally fight a lich, a dude whose trade is shooting things pretty much superskilled enough to do that. He gets his moment in a spotlight, is rewarded for a clever idea and everyone's happy and satisfied.

D&D does not emulate reality any better than a galeon saddled with enough ballast to make it sink emulates a submarine. On the other hand, i've been honored to play in D&D games where all such nonsense was thrown out of the window (in last one's final session, where all kinds of hell happily cut loose, party fighter iron heart surged, in order, gravity, gibs that were slowing them down and his weakness, went full-on Super Sayan and ascended to godhood soon afterwards), and they were on par with best anime i've seen.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Deophan has the right of it regarding instantaneous spells. The only thing a readied action can do, is to counterspell Fireball according to RAW.

The whole point about the "bead" text is to allow a wizard to stand behind someone else and still cast fireball- in old AD&D, a wizard had to have an unobstructed field of view as the fireball erupted adjacent to the caster and zoomed in a line until it hit something. The 3.0/3.5 text gives a caster greater control some gnat doesn't prematurely trigger the 10' wide fireball halfway to its intended target square.

But for the sake of argument, the people above did not correctly figure out the AC of a moving target. It's base DC would be 10. It's Diminutive size would be +8 AC. It's speed would be at minimum 68 mph (600 ft / 6 sec), but more likely 300 mph... for a +8 AC based on vehicle rules from Star Wars... so at minimum, AC 26, and as a GM I'd still add the +4 circumstance modifier to make it an even AC 30. This may be useful if in fact, someone wants to attempt to shoot someone else's ammunition out of the air (like an arrow, or a sling's bullet).

However, fireball is an instant effect. So faster than a speeding bullet. No readied action can ever effect an instant effect, except for counterspelling should the free action to Spellcraft succeed in determining the spell (in effect, only ANOTHER instantaneous spell can mess with an instantaneous spell).

[Deophaun]

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[Dimers]

Ooh, ooh, I'll take it up!

"Unless [the bead] impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range ..." There can't be a "prior to" if the bead takes zero time to move. So non-infinite movement speed is inherent in the spell description.

How about "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit ..." Something that takes no time to move doesn't "streak".

Time is also implied (though less definitely) in the phrase "detonates prematurely". The existence of the word 'premature' indicates that there are both times and places between the bead's creation and the bead's target. Ditto "an early impact" and "an early detonation". You might conceivably say that the concepts early and premature refer only to space, not time, but there's nothing to support that view over the opposite.

The duration of the fireball spell is Instantaneous, which means that the spread doesn't last beyond the action in which it is generated. However, it doesn't mean that any given aspect of the action is itself instantaneous (obviously true, or it wouldn't be possible to ready an attack to disrupt the caster, and for that matter it would be impossible to use somatic or verbal or material components in casting a spell since those all take a small amount of time to do). And there's no indication that the bead's movement is intended to be instantaneous.

EDIT: Also, rule of cool suggests that shooting at a fireball bead is too awesome not to allow. And to address the OP, I'd agree with Fine size + lich's Dexterity mod.

[Deophaun]

eadies an action to fire an arrow (which also travels at Warp 10, slowing only when in a monk's aura) an infinitesmall moment before the spell goes off, so two Warp-10 missiles collide in the air infinitesmall moment after that and disperse into radiation.
Except because they don't happen at the same time, your arrow arrives early and misses.

D&D does not emulate reality any better than a galeon saddled with enough ballast to make it sink emulates a submarine. On the other hand, i've been honored to play in D&D games where all such nonsense was thrown out of the window (in last one's final session, where all kinds of hell happily cut loose, party fighter iron heart surged, in order, gravity, gibs that were slowing them down and his weakness, went full-on Super Sayan and ascended to godhood soon afterwards), and they were on par with best anime i've seen.
That's great. I'm really happy for you. Have you seen the homebrew section?

[Eldonauran]

Meh, I'm with Drachasor on this one. I'll pull out the old favorite: text-trumps-table-eque reasoning. Despite having an instantaneous duration, the text explicitly gives the spell a delivery method that can be interrupted by impacting an obstacle in the way.

A skilled (and lucky) character, that is familiar with the spell (seen it before) and a good idea as to the direction the spell is flying, could use his prepared action to place a projectile in the way, effectively blocking the bead for the briefest of moments so that it impacts and explodes.

The spell effect, a blast of fire, is still instantaneous and has no lasting duration beyond the explosion. I see nothing gamebreaking here. Just a 'mage' getting taken down a notch by a clever character.

EDIT: Dimers beat me to it! Ninja'd. :smallamused:

[Twilightwyrm]

The 'bead' is made of magic, and cannot be attacked by regular weapons. The rogue can attack the Lich himself, hoping to interrupt the spell as it is being cast, but without house rules, you cannot attack the bead of magic itself.

If, by houserule, it was allowed, my guess is it would be a Fine object with the Lich's Dex mod, as well.

I don't think the idea here is that he is actually trying to damage the bead. Since a crossbow bolt is a hard surface, the bead striking it (or it striking the bead) causes the premature detonation mentioned in the spell description.

[Scow2]

Except because they don't happen at the same time, your arrow arrives early and misses.

Why would it arrive early?

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Actually, attacking the bead does work by the RAW of Readied Actions and the Fireball spell description.

[Mando Knight]

Technically, arrows would be "instantaneous" effects as well, if mundane attacks were to be given durations as well.

I'd say that the AC of a flying fireball bead is the same as that of a flying arrow or sling stone.

[Jormengand]

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If you have ever, have EVER seen a ride-by attack then you have just witnessed a houserule in action. The fact that what everyone else but you is saying conforms to RAW notwithstanding.

[Mr.Sandman]

I seem to have opened up quite the can of wworms, I am sorry to have caused tempers to flare this much.

[Dimers]

Certainly not your fault, Mr.Sandman. People argue because everyone likes to be right. The argument isn't even about what you asked, really. What it comes down to is that odd lack of defined space in-between "casting time" and "duration" ... which really has little to do with how hard it is to hit a tiny and fast-moving thing so that it blows up in its user's face. :smallsmile:

[Herabec]

Really, the fact of the matter comes down to this:

The AC of the fireball bead is exactly as high as you want it to be.

Rule 0, baby. :smallcool:

[dascarletm]

If the argument that the spell effect cannot be messed with on a ready action because the spell duration is instantaneous just look at WalWall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) or Orb of Fire/Acid/etc. It says nowhere in the rules either way if this application will or will not work. Instantaneous sometimes is used to describe spells that call some form of energy and then that energy is manipulated. Like the fireball, the bead is called fourth instantaneously and then sent off to hit the target.

If you don't like that answer, then I ready my action to put an arrow in the path of said liches fireball when he casts it.

[Eldonauran]

If the argument that the spell effect cannot be messed with on a ready action because the spell duration is instantaneous just look at WalWall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) or Orb of Fire/Acid/etc. It says nowhere in the rules either way if this application will or will not work. Instantaneous sometimes is used to describe spells that call some form of energy and then that energy is manipulated. Like the fireball, the bead is called fourth instantaneously and then sent off to hit the target.

If you don't like that answer, then I ready my action to put an arrow in the path of said liches fireball when he casts it.

I'm not seeing your point. Unlike the two spells you referenced, Fireball's spell description describes the bead detonating prematurely if it strikes something. However that something gets there, really doesn't matter. Same thing would happen if you prepared an action to cast wall of force in front of the Lich, in response to him casting fireball.

[dascarletm]

I'm not seeing your point. Unlike the two spells you referenced, Fireball's spell description describes the bead detonating prematurely if it strikes something. However that something gets there, really doesn't matter. Same thing would happen if you prepared an action to cast wall of force in front of the Lich, in response to him casting fireball.

Yes, I'm trying to say that just because the duration is instantaneous it doesn't mean that all aspects of the spell are instantaneous, such as the bead travel.

[Eldonauran]

Yes, I'm trying to say that just because the duration is instantaneous it doesn't mean that all aspects of the spell are instantaneous, such as the bead travel.

Ah, gotcha. :smallwink:

Carry on then. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Your archer could have used his readied action to shoot the Lich and forced a Concentration check on a hit, which might have ruined the spell.
Liches have DR 15/certainly-not-bolts.

What he is asking to do is basically shooting an arrow out of the air, which shouldn't normally be possible. If the bead were stationary and not wielded it might count as fine or smaller, -5 for being inanimate, yielding 13+ AC.

It might make sense to shoot the bat guano out of his hand. That seems like a ranged disarm though. Which should require the ranged disarm feat. Or, ignoring the existence of that feat, it seems really hard.

[Jeff the Green]

What he is asking to do is basically shooting an arrow out of the air, which shouldn't normally be possible. If the bead were stationary and not wielded it might count as fine or smaller, -5 for being inanimate, yielding 13+ AC.

Some quick math to back that up.


The maximum range of a fireball (assuming we stop at CL 20) is 1200'.
One can perform up to two move actions in a round (six seconds), but not three move actions

Therefore a move action takes x seconds where 3 seconds ≥ x ≥ 2 seconds.

One can also perform a move action and a standard action.

Taking also 2A, a standard action can take no more than 4 seconds to complete.

As the fireball spell has a duration of instantaneous it resolves within the same standard action used to cast it.

Taking also 3A, a fireball must reach its destination in less than 4 seconds.

Taking 1 and 4A, a fireball must be capable of travelling at a speed greater than 1200'/4 seconds = 300 fps = 204.545 mph.

[Spuddles]

Would the general rules for instantaneous spell effects be trumped by the specific rules regarding a fireball bead?

[Drachasor]

Would the general rules for instantaneous spell effects be trumped by the specific rules regarding a fireball bead?

As I noted before "instantaneous" doesn't necessarily mean "in an infinitesimal amount of time." It can also mean "momentary" as in something that just happens very quickly. ("instant" is the same way).

Let's also consider this logically in terms of how you'd stat something out. Here's how the game measure time for spells: "instantaneous", "end of your turn", "1 round", etc. A duration of "1 standard action" or "1 move action" doesn't make any sense -- unless the spell directly affects a move action that turn, but even then I don't think any spell in the game has such durations because they are waaay too vague. Instead they'd have something like "duration: 1 round" and then have an effect that gets expended on your next move -- something like that.

So really "instantaneous" covers anything that lasts for less time than "until the end of your turn."

Also, based on a strict reading, there's nothing that stops an instantaneous spell from creating a magical effect that lasts for a while, even if the initial magic was just instantaneous. For instance, a quick alteration of Wall of Force to "instantaneous" and maybe a small text alteration and it lasts until destroyed. Nothing against the rules about a spell like that. That's more theoretical and doesn't really matter for this conversation.

[TuggyNE]

People argue because everyone likes to be right.

No they don't!