A Truely Dead Level

[Kree West]

Try to find a true dead level. This is basiclly a level that has no spell progression, no BAB increase, no maneuver progression, no class features, no save increase, only HP increase. Good luck.

Books Not Worth Checking
PHB
ToB
Complete Div
Complete War

[Khatoblepas]

Commoner 5.

[Gem]

Commoner 5, if you have <7 int.

[Kree West]

Any others? 'Cause I'm sure there are a lot of NPC classes that are like this.

[Flickerdart]

Risen Martyr 10. You literally die.

[Vaz]

'lot of NPC classes', erm, no.

There are;

Commoner
Adept
Warrior
Expert
Magewright
Aristocrat

Possibly a couple in the Dragon Magazines.

[Kree West]

'lot of NPC classes', erm, no.

There are;

Commoner
Adept
Warrior
Expert
Magewright
Aristocrat

Possibly a couple in the Dragon Magazines.

I was refering to thew fact that NPC classes are the most likely to have true dead levels.

[Lord Haart]

Soulknife 5.
On a more serious note, soulknife 1.

[Kree West]

Soulknife 5.
On a more serious note, soulknife 1.

level 1 gets saves

[Khatoblepas]

Risen Martyr 10. You literally die.

I think that's debatable; The text of the ability says:


When a 10th-level risen martyr has earned enough experience points to gain his next level, his perfected, spiritual body is taken whole into the upper planes.

While in most theologies, being taken up to heaven is akin to death, remember that the upper planes are a place you can go to normally in D&D. Once he gains enough experience points, he is effectively plane shifted to the upper planes. You can go, you know, get him back. If you want. I wouldn't, Risen Martyrs are pretty useless, and he wouldn't be able to gain any more levels. But he's not dead.

Oh, and another dead level:

Warhulk 5 + 7.... if you enter as a Half-Ogre who undergoes the Ritual of Transfiguration.

[Vaz]

The only problem is that once you've gained 10th level, there's no actual ability to grow any stronger. You cannot take any more levels after taking Risen Martyr, and as you can take the first level at ECL7, that means that when the rest of your party can take their 18th level (provided your pious exaltedness hasn't resulted in you being chained to a stone and dropped into the sea) you're stuck as an ECL17 character, even IF you can Plane Shift to that level.

[Raendyn]

The only problem is that once you've gained 10th level, there's no actual ability to grow any stronger. You cannot take any more levels after taking Risen Martyr, and as you can take the first level at ECL7, that means that when the rest of your party can take their 18th level (provided your pious exaltedness hasn't resulted in you being chained to a stone and dropped into the sea) you're stuck as an ECL17 character, even IF you can Plane Shift to that level.

No You arent. U cant take other class lvls while you are in the prestige. You can take normal after you finish it. The text says that you cant delay the 10th lvl by taking other class lvls, nowhere says u cant take lvls after you finish RM.

[Deophaun]

I think dragons have dead levels relating to their age categories.

[Khatoblepas]

No You arent. U cant take other class lvls while you are in the prestige. You can take normal after you finish it. The text says that you cant delay the 10th lvl by taking other class lvls, nowhere says u cant take lvls after you finish RM.


A risen martyr cannot advance in any class other than risen martyr in order to delay his final ascension. Once he rises and adopts this prestige class, he must continue to gain risen martyr levels and no levels in any other class.


It says, once you're a risen martyr, you cannot take any levels in any other class. Not while you're taking it. After you become a Risen Martyr, you're always one. I guess if you were level 20 after you achieved Risen Martyr, you could... take Epic Risen Martyr levels? Yaaaay. +1 to your attack and damage every three levels.

What an awful prestige class.

[Big Fau]

Most classes (especially the noncasters) have dead levels around 5th, 7th, 13th, and 14th. I don't really think a saving throw increase should be counted for those levels, as those are just another +1 at those levels.

[RandomLunatic]

Monk 13 is a real stinker. No progression to BAB, Saves, Unarmed Damage, AC, or movement, so all you get is HPs, skill points, and the SR, which arguably hurts you more than it helps, since it cuts you off from in-combat buffing and healing.

Monk 17 is worse-it still provides nothing except HP and skills, and the abilities are even worse-Timeless Body, which is almost pure fluff, and Tongue of The Sun And Moon, which, in typical Monk fashion, the Druid has been doing since 1st level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm), which is when it may have been of some use.

Fighter 5, 7, 13, 17, and 19. +1 BaB, 1d10+Con HP, 2+Int skills, and nothing else. Dishonorable mention to all other odd levels of Fighter besides 1 as well.

Dragon Shaman 13. Again no saves or BaB, so all you get is the ability to share you Draconic Adaptation (which you have probably forgotten you eve had by now) with your allies.

Samurai (CW) 13 and 19. Just as pointless as the equivalent fighter levels.

Paladin 13. No save advancement, no class features, and it does not even advance your spellcasting.

Ranger 7. No advancement to saves or casting, and have you ever used Woodland Stride in game? Neither have I.

[Togath]

There are also bloodline levels.

[137beth]

I think dragons have dead levels relating to their age categories.

If we count dragon HD as levels, then any dragon HD would not be a true dead level, since it always gives +1 BAB:smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Any race with a level adjustment.

[Humble Master]

Risen Martyr 10. You literally die. Well it is technically a dead level :smallbiggrin:

As for levels were you only get hit dice and skills.

5th level Commoner and every odd Commoner level thereafter.
5th, 13th and 17th level Expert or Aristocrat.

[Talderas]

Try to find a true dead level. This is basiclly a level that has no spell progression, no BAB increase, no maneuver progression, no class features, no save increase, only HP increase. Good luck.

Books Not Worth Checking
PHB
ToB
Complete Div
Complete War

Okay. So here's how it works. You've given some constants that lets us quickly filter out certain combinations of BAB/Saves where you don't gain.

So here's what we can rule out.

If you have nothing but strong saves (like a monk) then we will only look at odd levels except first. (3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19)
If you have nothing but weak saves (like a commoner) then we will only look at every level but the third. (1/2/4/5/7/8/10/11/13/14/16/17/19/20)
With cleric BAB you look at level 1 and every 4 levels thereafter. (1/5/9/13/17)
With wizard BAB only odd levels are in consideration. (1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19)

So from those four data sets that leaves only the following levels to look at.
5, 13, 17

[BowStreetRunner]

If a class gives 1/2 BAB then levels 5, 7, 11, 13, 17 and 19 are the only ones that give no boost to BAB or Saves. So you would have to find one of these levels that have no other features. For a 3/4 BAB class however, you cut the possibilities down to 5, 13 and 17. And with Full BAB of course every level gives at least +1 BAB.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pale Master 1

[Rubik]

How about green star adept 10? Finishing the class is enough reason to kill oneself, I think.

[Humble Master]

Pale Master 1 You get +2 to Will saves so it's not a truly dead level but it is a pretty worthless level nonetheless.

Oh and how are we going to handle the feat you naturally get at 1st, 3rd, 6th ect. level?

[Uncle Pine]

I think that's debatable; The text of the ability says:



While in most theologies, being taken up to heaven is akin to death, remember that the upper planes are a place you can go to normally in D&D. Once he gains enough experience points, he is effectively plane shifted to the upper planes. You can go, you know, get him back. If you want. I wouldn't, Risen Martyrs are pretty useless, and he wouldn't be able to gain any more levels. But he's not dead.

Actually, I always read that ability as "the Risen Martyr is removed from the game as a PC", like a character that gains a divine rank. The difference is that the Risen Martyr gains nothing and the player can only roll a new character.

[ArqArturo]

The Exemplar PrC as a whole.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Monk 13 is a real stinker. No progression to BAB, Saves, Unarmed Damage, AC, or movement, so all you get is HPs, skill points, and the SR, which arguably hurts you more than it helps, since it cuts you off from in-combat buffing and healing.

Monk 17 is worse-it still provides nothing except HP and skills, and the abilities are even worse-Timeless Body, which is almost pure fluff, and Tongue of The Sun And Moon, which, in typical Monk fashion, the Druid has been doing since 1st level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm), which is when it may have been of some use.


Timeless body gives a free +3 to all your mentals, its nothing special but its not absolutely horrible.

[Rubik]

The Exemplar PrC as a whole.You misspelled "hole." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238255)

[ArqArturo]

You misspelled "hole." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238255)

Why is this a thing? :eek:

[Rubik]

Why is this a thing? :eek:Because exemplar.

[Talderas]

So from those four data sets that leaves only the following levels to look at.
5, 13, 17

Okay. So 5/13/17 are the only universally dead levels for BAB/Saves.

So slight correction based on BAB/Saves.

Universal: 5/13/17
Cleric BAB + Good Saves Only : 9
Cleric BAB + Weak Saves Only : 1
Wizard BAB + At Least 1 Good Save : 7/11/19
Wizard BAB + Weak Saves Only : 1/7/11/19

Add Universal plus group listed. So a Wizard BAB with at least one good save has dead level potential at 5/7/11/13/17/19.

[137beth]

Okay. So 5/13/17 are the only universally dead levels for BAB/Saves.

So slight correction based on BAB/Saves.

Universal: 5/13/17
Cleric BAB + Good Saves Only : 9
Cleric BAB + Weak Saves Only : 1
Wizard BAB + At Least 1 Good Save : 7/11/19
Wizard BAB + Weak Saves Only : 1/7/11/19

Add Universal plus group listed. So a Wizard BAB with at least one good save has dead level potential at 5/7/11/13/17/19.
1 and 9 are never dead levels, though, because you get a feat:smallwink:

[Rubik]

1 and 9 are never dead levels, though, because you get a feat:smallwink:Except multiclassing.

[BowStreetRunner]

Oh and how are we going to handle the feat you naturally get at 1st, 3rd, 6th ect. level?

Except that is a function of character level, not class level. So multi-class characters would encounter these at different class levels.

[ArqArturo]

Because exemplar.

I am scared/amused/amazed/happy about the optimizing community XD.

[Humble Master]

You misspelled "hole." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238255) :smallsigh: Oh Gygax, why? WHY?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

:smallsigh: Oh Gygax, why? WHY?

Gygax had nothing to do with this. Blame Monopolies of the Eastern Seaboard for this.

[Humble Master]

Gygax had nothing to do with this. Blame Monopolies of the Eastern Seaboard for this. I mean it as: "Oh Gygax, why did this have to happen to your creation"

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I mean it as: "Oh Gygax, why did this have to happen to your creation"

Because that is what happens when you get bought out in a hostile corporate takeover by a company who uses greed to determine their course of action and has a complete lack of morality or respect for the achievements that made the brand great.

[TuggyNE]

Timeless body gives a free +3 to all your mentals, its nothing special but its not absolutely horrible.

Assuming you can start the game there, or take a long downtime (years and years). Otherwise not so much.

[Seffbasilisk]

You misspelled "hole." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238255)

Why not pay an NPC wizard to cast it instead of using tomes. Costs less, at the 5gp per xp spent cost.

Edit: Seconding your opinion on the LA. Unless buyoff is allowed, it's a completely dead level.

[Talderas]

1 and 9 are never dead levels, though, because you get a feat:smallwink:

Feats aren't listed in the OPs original statement. Only feats that are gain via class features would make a level a dead level.