Alignment, Madness, and Uncertainty

[Xefas]

I'll put the primary question first, for the TL;DR folks, who are legitimate folks whose opinions still matter: For the purposes of fictional characters in D&D, does the moral and ethical nature of one's actions change based on completely internal, but abnormal, psychological phenomenon? And what about if the same abnormality stems from an external source? And what about whether the internal or external nature of the influence is uncertain?

[Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not looking for an 'objectively correct' answer. I'm more interested in what people think in general, and about discussing the topic.]

For the longer version:
I'm playing a character in a campaign right now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287681) (link to the journal). And one of the things I've been interested in exploring with them is how their nature fits into D&D's alignment schema.

They're using a homebrew class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983) that encourages the user (and, rarely, outright forces them) to be more brutal, savage, and angry in exchange for power. Its thematics often refer to a "Monster", which I've attempted to make ambiguous as to whether it is a literal demonic creature, or a metaphor for the shocking violence and brutality that all people are capable of (given the right setting, it could be both, as well).

So, my character began as a relatively simple, idealistic, and well-meaning farmer. But, after repeated life-threatening experiences, is headed in a downward spiral, where her anger is taking control, and she's committing progressively more savage actions on other sapient beings. I haven't defined, and she doesn't know, whether she's just losing her mind and, as the barriers in her mind are broken down, she's attaining Charles Atlas Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower) as her body is pushed to its limits, or whether some dark, sinister, external force is manipulating and changing her to suit its own ends.

And, well, I'm curious what the playground thinks. If you're a good (or maybe even Good) person, who goes crazy, and you do bad things because you're crazy, does that constitute slipping towards Evil (or Chaos, or something else)? If you're a good person, but some demonic god from beyond the world is plucking your puny mortal psychological strings in just the right way at just the right time to get you to do bad things, does that constitute slipping towards Evil/Chaos/something else? What do you do with Alignment if you don't know which one it is?

[Flickerdart]

D&D alignment is not subjective. Evil and Good and Law and Chaos are quantifiable. The reason for doing things is not relevant.

[Twilightwyrm]

If she is taking these actions under her own power (this is to say, without magical mental compulsion), insane or not, she slips towards evil/chaos as appropriate.
If, on the other hand, it is a demon making use of multiple dominate and suggestion like abilities to bend her to its will, then this is less clear. It depends on how much control the demonic force actually has, and whether she actively resists it. If the demonic force is simply magically good and convincing her this is a good idea, and she goes along with it, then she might slip. If it id due to some actual magical compulsion, and she resists said compulsion whenever she can, then perhaps not.

[Xefas]

D&D alignment is not subjective. Evil and Good and Law and Chaos are quantifiable. The reason for doing things is not relevant.

Interesting. So, I get both parts of what you're saying, "Alignment is objective" and "Intent doesn't matter", but I'm not sure how you're linking them. They don't necessarily follow one another. Whatever objective rubric exists (in something like Planescape) could include intent within it, surely?



It depends on how much control the demonic force actually has, and whether she actively resists it. If the demonic force is simply magically good and convincing her this is a good idea, and she goes along with it, then she might slip. If it id due to some actual magical compulsion, and she resists said compulsion whenever she can, then perhaps not.

Sounds reasonable.

As a follow-up, with this reasoning, what happens when a mortal's willpower simply runs out? If they fight as long as they can, hold out with their integrity to the bitter end, but this power far greater than themselves eventually destroys their resistance, and forces them to go into the darkness peacefully, will they be Evil simply because they aren't invincible? They might be choosing to do vile things, but only because they've been mentally tortured to the point where they can no longer do otherwise. In such a situation, would suicide be the more Good action, if the alternative is having your mind warped beyond recognition?

[hamishspence]

Intent can make a big difference for Good acts- if you take the view that "making personal sacrifices for people you have no connection to" is Good, but that doing any deed for selfish reasons is at best Neutral.

It may make less of a difference for Evil acts, like Destroying Souls. Even if the only reason the bad guy's soul is being destroyed by you, is to "Save the World- because otherwise he will inevitably come back and threaten it" - it might still qualify as evil by most sourcebooks that mention this sort of thing.

[Slipperychicken]

Alignment at its core is about moral outlook. A good person can do bad things once in a while, but if he starts thinking it's justified, then he will start slipping into neutrality or even evil.

If it's something like a magical compulsion where the actor isn't in control, alignment isn't (or at least shouldn't be) affected. Any actions taken while under such an effect reflect the controller's will, and could only affect the controller's alignment.

As for madness, I'd say that actions taken as a result of its influence count toward alignment (it's part of you, after all), since your psychology is obviously changed (rather than simply bypassed in the case of magical compulsion). If the madness is cured (such as with a spell) or successfully treated, then those acts stop counting, as though you never did it in the first place.

For example, if Lawful Evil Scrooge McDuck is overtaken by a mental illness which causes him to perform repeated acts of charity and goodwill, his alignment may shift, over time, to neutrality or even goodness. However, if a Cleric later casts a spell to cure his madness, then Scrooge will revert to his previous alignment.

[BlasphemousSlug]

In both cases you would become evil. A fun and interesting evil, but evil nonetheless.

In the case of the general psychological deterioration, refer to the sanity rules in UA. IIRC, there is mention of an insane episode causing temporary alignment shifts.

In the case of malign forces, refer to the fiendish codex: tyrants of the nine hells. It specifically state that devils corrupting mortals, even by driving them insane, get credit for those souls, and damn them to the hells.