Most useless PrC?

[Feint's End]

About the only thing worse than taking the first 9 levels of metamind for a manifester is taking non-manifesting classes. Heck, even they would be better, assuming you don't want psionics for more than a few minor but still potent magical effects, such as the Force Screen power, Hammer, and Linked Synchronicity. The 10th level is good, but you lose so much getting up to it that it's not even really worth it by then.

When a psionic manifesting PrC is worse than taking non-manifesting classes, you know it's bad.

Take 10 Level Ardent with dominant ideal (time) and use the ACF to get Synchronicity in there/take 10 level Metamind // use Practised Manifester so you get to ML 19 (which still nets you 9th level powers on an Ardent due to reliance on Manifesterlevel and not Classelevel)

Now use Linked Power on Synchronicity to get infinite standartactions in 0 time and blow up the world.
Not very practical but even without the Synchronicity abuse Metaminds are viable on Ardents and Ardents with dominant Ideal (energy) and 10 level metamind are about the best psionic blasters you will get.

[Rubik]

Take 10 Level Ardent with dominant ideal (time) and use the ACF to get Synchronicity in there/take 10 level Metamind // use Practised Manifester so you get to ML 19 (which still nets you 9th level powers on an Ardent due to reliance on Manifesterlevel and not Classelevel)

Now use Linked Power on Synchronicity to get infinite standartactions in 0 time and blow up the world.
Not very practical but even without the Synchronicity abuse Metaminds are viable on Ardents and Ardents with dominant Ideal (energy) and 10 level metamind are about the best psionic blasters you will get.It's not that it can't be optimized -- pretty much anything but the shining fail of Heironeous can be optimized -- but it's a terrible, terrible PrC for almost anyone.

Yes, the SFoH is worse. It's hard to top, really.

[ArqArturo]

Re-reading my copy of Complete Warrior, I found a few others that are just too awful:

Weapon Master.- A one, maybe two-level dip, since really, there isn't much to do here. Flurry of Strikes is good, though. As with Ranged Disarm.

Knight protector has been mentioned, as with Reaping Mauler. Nature's warrior is kinda lame, and you can pretty much do what it has with feats, and you might not lose spellcasting as you would with Nature's warrior, unless you're using the shapeshifting ranger variant, and if you were to combine it with Warshaper, it would be ok.

Order of the Bow Initiate was a lame attempt at an archer, but fails miserably. Ronin just sucks, right alongside the Samurai core class. And Stonelord is just awful.


It's not that it can't be optimized -- pretty much anything but the shining fail of Heironeous can be optimized -- but it's a terrible, terrible PrC for almost anyone.

Yes, the SFoH is worse. It's hard to top, really.

I think I found something he could be good at... Weaving Baskets :D.

[Karnith]

Ronin just sucks, right alongside the Samurai core class.
Nah, Ronin is pretty cool; it grants sneak attack and a mini-Heedless Charge (that, so far as I can tell, stacks with the effects of Shock Trooper/Power Attack) at second level. The full class isn't great, but two levels can be pretty good on a charger.

[JaronK]

A note about Reaping Mauler is that it requires you to not be large or larger... which grapplers desperately need. So... definitely a terrible class. You specialize in something poor, and then you do it poorly.

At least it has some flavor... I could see it used for an NPC wrestler character or something.

JaronK

[ArqArturo]

A note about Reaping Mauler is that it requires you to not be large or larger... which grapplers desperately need. So... definitely a terrible class. You specialize in something poor, and then you do it poorly.

At least it has some flavor... I could see it used for an NPC wrestler character or something.

JaronK

I can see a masked shirtless halfling monk doing reverse suplexes to thieves going 'Beware, criminals, for I am El Grappleador!', and just fail at it.

[ranagrande]

A note about Reaping Mauler is that it requires you to not be large or larger... which grapplers desperately need. So... definitely a terrible class. You specialize in something poor, and then you do it poorly.

At least it has some flavor... I could see it used for an NPC wrestler character or something.

JaronK
Qualifying through Leviathan Hunter removes that limitation though. There are still better choices for grapplers than Reaping Mauler, but at least that makes it viable.

Now I'm going to do my own attempt at your SBoH challenge.

Order is important:

Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 2/Emissary of Barachiel 5/Human Paragon 3/Shining Blade of Heironeous 9

[Rubik]

I nominate planar shepherd.

It's not exactly useful if no DM in their right mind would ever let you play one.

[eggynack]

I nominate planar shepherd.

It's not exactly useful if no DM in their right mind would ever let you play one.
Additionally, if a DM in their wrong mind lets you play one, it's quite possibly the prestige class most likely to get a book hurled at your head. SBoH doesn't inflict head trauma on its users, so it has zero utility, as opposed to planar shepherd's negative utility.

[JaronK]

Now I'm going to do my own attempt at your SBoH challenge.

Order is important:

Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 2/Emissary of Barachiel 5/Human Paragon 3/Shining Blade of Heironeous 9

...Did you just do a build that simply can't take other levels anyway? Hah!

JaronK

[Vedhin]

Additionally, if a DM in their wrong mind lets you play one, it's quite possibly the prestige class most likely to get a book hurled at your head. SBoH doesn't inflict head trauma on its users, so it has zero utility, as opposed to planar shepherd's negative utility.

It does inflict mental trauma.

[Scow2]

Additionally, if a DM in their wrong mind lets you play one, it's quite possibly the prestige class most likely to get a book hurled at your head. SBoH doesn't inflict head trauma on its users, so it has zero utility, as opposed to planar shepherd's negative utility.

Meh... if you play it conservatively, you can get some utility out of it.

[ranagrande]

...Did you just do a build that simply can't take other levels anyway? Hah!

JaronK

That's actually what I wanted to do, but I couldn't find any five level alternate casting divine PrCs. So this character could still take more levels in Emissary of Barachiel, but amusingly, the Shining Blade is actually better.

Emissary of Barachiel doesn't gain any new class features after level 5, and casting is the only thing level-dependent, so you're trading two skill points per level for a bigger HD, higher saves and BAB, and the glowy sword stuff.

Incidentally, that's why I saved a level of Human Paragon for later, so I wouldn't lose a caster level by not being able to take SBoH 10.

[ArqArturo]

I nominate planar shepherd.

It's not exactly useful if no DM in their right mind would ever let you play one.

I could see some use of it in a Planescape game.

[CyberThread]

I vote The Ardent Dilettante as more annoying

[Chronos]

Is that the one that has a new prerequisite for every level? I seem to recall it at least had some interesting abilities.

[Humble Master]

I could see some use of it in a Planescape game. I think Rubik's point was that no DM would let you actually use Planar Shepherd.

[The Viscount]

Is that the one that has a new prerequisite for every level? I seem to recall it at least had some interesting abilities.

It's not every level, but the prerequisites for levels 1, 4, 7, and 10 in the class are positively murderous. It gives some neat things, but it's a real taskmaster.

[ArqArturo]

I think Rubik's point was that no DM would let you actually use Planar Shepherd.

I had a DM that barred clerics and druids from taking Metamagic feats, unless they had the Magic Domain (in the case of clerics). Mostly because of broken fun with Divine Metamagic and quicken spell.

Also, I love the fact that this thread started as "I hate X class because it gives you nothing" to "How do we make SBoH suck less?".

[TuggyNE]

Also, I love the fact that this thread started as "I hate X class because it gives you nothing" to "How do we make SBoH suck less?".

The Playground knows how to drill down to the really tough (and important!) questions.

[nedz]

I had a DM that barred clerics and druids from taking Metamagic feats, unless they had the Magic Domain (in the case of clerics). Mostly because of broken fun with Divine Metamagic and quicken spell.

Also, I love the fact that this thread started as "I hate X class because it gives you nothing" to "How do we make SBoH suck less?".

Banning DMM and Quicken (etc.) is the thing.

Also, all of the SBoH builds suck — we are just trying to make it appear less sucky than the rest of the crap we are assembling. Interestingly I have managed to highlight how poor Pious Templar is — well beyond the Mettle dip.

[Humble Master]

I had a DM that barred clerics and druids from taking Metamagic feats, unless they had the Magic Domain (in the case of clerics). Mostly because of broken fun with Divine Metamagic and quicken spell.
Divine Metamagic + Persist Spell is even worse.

[Sith_Happens]

Also, I love the fact that this thread started as "I hate X class because it gives you nothing" to "How do we make SBoH suck less?".

Except it isn't "How do we make SBoH suck less," it's "How do we build something even worse than SBoH?"

Also, I nominate Commoner 1/Truenamer 9/SBoH 10.
(EDIT: Doesn't qualify.:smallredface:)

[CyberThread]

does master of masks count?

[Sith_Happens]

does master of masks count?

Master of Masks is awesome. 1-level dip for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: All of Them? Yes please.

[CyberThread]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

[Rubik]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?Spinning sword or orc monk.

Oh, wait. The latter is a simple weapon.

In numerous ways.

[Karnith]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?
A chain/chain lash, for two-weapon fighting tripping/reach shenanigans. Gnomish quickrazors for Iaijutsu abuse. Minotaur Greathammers for being good all-around. The Ramhammer for Dungeoncrashers/bullrushing with reach.

There are actually a few good exotic weapons.

[Vedhin]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

Orc Shotput for 2d6 damage, and 19-20/x3 crits. On a thrown weapon, so fun with Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade.

[ArqArturo]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

Call me Vanilla, but there's something I love about Bastard Swords/Katanas.

[ArcturusV]

Kusari-Gama for two weapon reach shenanigans (Only one handed reach weapon I can think of off the top of my head, other than a lance when horseback). Repeater Crossbow if you have crossbow based feats/perks but want to make Full Attacks for some reason.

[Scow2]

Kusari-Gama for two weapon reach shenanigans (Only one handed reach weapon I can think of off the top of my head, other than a lance when horseback). Repeater Crossbow if you have crossbow based feats/perks but want to make Full Attacks for some reason.

Ah... the Kusari-Gama. All the cheese of the Spiked Chain, with the convenience of fitting in one hand.

[XmonkTad]

SBoH is super bad. How about "Menaceing Brute"? Aside from the silly racial prerequisite, it's a intimidate-o-mancer that's worse than a tier 6. It's second level ability is flavorful, but easily duplicated by my favorite magic item of all time: Nolzur's Mystic Pigments.

If there was some way to get it to find artifacts...

[JaronK]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

Gnomish Quickrazor, Compound Greatbow, Halfling War Sling, Great Crossbow, Awl Pike, Dwarf War Axe, and Harpoon have all seen use in games I've played in. Some weapons are actually really good.

Honestly, Spiked Chains are overrated. You can get trip with reach with the Guisarme anyway, and Armor Spikes let you hit adjacent.

JaronK

[Amphetryon]

Gnomish Quickrazor, Compound Greatbow, Halfling War Sling, Great Crossbow, Awl Pike, Dwarf War Axe, and Harpoon have all seen use in games I've played in. Some weapons are actually really good.

Honestly, Spiked Chains are overrated. You can get trip with reach with the Guisarme anyway, and Armor Spikes let you hit adjacent.

JaronK

The caber is at least interesting to tool around with, though difficult to focus a build around.

[Chronos]

For good exotic weapons, don't forget anything made from kaorti resin. Like, say, keen kukris, for 15-20/x4 crits.

[ArqArturo]

Ah... the Kusari-Gama. All the cheese of the Spiked Chain, with the convenience of fitting in one hand.

Because Duskblades need their range and their AC.

[nedz]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

It's really all about Whips and Chains.

[Socratov]

what exotic weapon can you honestly say you would use besides spiked chain?

I once built a dagger thrower throwing dragonsplits, can't remember why, but it did help even though I used the fast for it back then...

[Rubik]

It's really all about Whips and Chains.Sticks and stones may break my bones,
But whips and chains excite me.

...Sorry. I got caught up in the haiku thread.

[Chronos]

Another possible use for a Shining Blade of Heironius: Use it to power Forsaker. Scrounge up a few clubs every day, make them glowy, and then immediately smash them to get your RDA of magic-item destruction.

[The Viscount]

Another possible use for a Shining Blade of Heironius: Use it to power Forsaker. Scrounge up a few clubs every day, make them glowy, and then immediately smash them to get your RDA of magic-item destruction.

Sorry, doesn't work. Shock Blade, and by extension, the other abilities, requires a slashing or piercing weapon. More importantly, the 1st level divine spells you need for shining blade disqualify you from forsaker.

[Chronos]

OK, then, just get cheap spears or daggers or something, or whatever nonmagical weapons you loot off of the orcs you fight. It still makes Forsaker a lot more affordable. And you'd have to take the required one level of SBoH before you start Forsaker, due to the relinquishing spells thing, but that shouldn't be a problem. If a Complete Divine PrC that requires no divine spellcasting as a prereq can continue working after gaining divine spellcasting, then another Complete Divine PrC that requires spellcasting as a prereq can continue working after losing it. Besides, you arguably don't actually lose the ability to cast spells; you just swear off using that ability.

[Humble Master]

Speaking of exotic weapons what about the Exotic Weapons Master from Complete Warrior? It isn't painfully bad but most of the Exotic Weapon Tricks are only situationally useful. Only one I could see myself taking would be Ranged Disarm because knocking the sword out of my opponent's hand with a thrown dagger would be awesome.

[JaronK]

Speaking of exotic weapons what about the Exotic Weapons Master from Complete Warrior? It isn't painfully bad but most of the Exotic Weapon Tricks are only situationally useful. Only one I could see myself taking would be Ranged Disarm because knocking the sword out of my opponent's hand with a thrown dagger would be awesome.

They're a great one level dip for people who want to use a Katana and have high strength, though. Also, Exotic Flurry can be handy when used with Shou Disciple, allowing a Monk to get even more misses... I mean attacks.

JaronK

[Humble Master]

They're a great one level dip for people who want to use a Katana and have high strength, though. Also, Exotic Flurry can be handy when used with Shou Disciple, allowing a Monk to get even more misses... I mean attacks.

JaronK Why not just two hand wield the Katana and thus not need to spend a feat on the exotic weapons proficiency? A katana is a bastard sword and thus can be wielded two handed as a martial weapon. For that matter why not just two hand wield a two-handed sword?

[ArcturusV]

There's always that one guy who wants to go to something like Mirumoto Ninten Master, which requires one handing a Katana so you can use a Wakizashi as a shield.

[ArqArturo]

There's always that one guy who wants to go to something like Mirumoto Ninten Master, which requires one handing a Katana so you can use a Wakizashi as a shield.

I just wanted to be the swoard & board guy with a bastard sword.

[Venger]

Nature's warrior is awesome, I don't know what you're talking about. As a druid, of course it's a step down (anything besides moonspeaker/planar shepherd is for a druid) but you are supposed to enter it to round out a WS ranger, especially in a wild shape ranger/ momf build. it gives fast healing (pretty big deal) and also complements warshapers rather nicely (if your melee changeling is lacking in punch)

order of the bow initiate blows pretty hard because its 1 class feature is a standard, meanign you can't full attack sneak attack like real rogues.

Imma disagree about ronin though. ronin's pretty bawse. 4d6 SA, full BA, 2 free feats and that oddball banzai charge? giggity. not sure what there is not to like about it (just dip master of masks and deal with it)

can't argue with stonelord. as is often discussed, CWar came out early in 3.5's run when they were still under the 3.0 misapprehension that crappy SLAs 1/day = class features.


1Animate Dead as an SLA is worth the whole class, since as an SLA, you don't pay for using it. FREE skeletons once per day, which means they really are disposable!

No, my necromancer bias is not showing, what do you mean!?

True necromancer is awful for reasons that have already been elaborated on upthread, so I won't repeat.

But if you want free animate dead 1/day, dip pale master 2. much less painful to qualify for, and it won't retard your spellcasting progression as badly. if you stay for 7 lvls, it's one of the few ways in the game to become immune to HP damage, and if you stay the full 10, you can punch people in the face so hard they join your undead army fo' free, ignoring your control cap.

[CyberThread]

I bring a new contender!


Solar Channaler from the gates of slaughtergarde

[Scow2]

Why not just two hand wield the Katana and thus not need to spend a feat on the exotic weapons proficiency? A katana is a bastard sword and thus can be wielded two handed as a martial weapon. For that matter why not just two hand wield a two-handed sword?Because if you have the EWP for the Katana/Bastard Sword (Such as through a Dip into Samurai), you deal more damage with a dip into Exotic Weapon Master, depending on your strength score. Instead of 1.5x Strength, you get 2x Strength.

[The Viscount]

I bring a new contender!


Solar Channaler from the gates of slaughtergarde

The actual solar channeling is terrible, but 7/10ths casting isn't bad, and channel healing is all right. It's still not worse than SBoH.

[Humble Master]

Can nothing defeat the Shining Fail? Has Rage Mage been brought up?

[Scow2]

Can nothing defeat the Shining Fail? Has Rage Mage been brought up?

Rage Mage still works, as long as you remember you're equal parts Barbarian and Wizard (or Sorcerer, or Warmage, or What-have-you).

[CyberThread]

The Mantis Mercenary ???


5 level prc two weapon fighting , str enhancement bonus to a skill check 1/day, and int or wisdom to your ac(at level 5)


The Maho-Bujin 10 level prc that only gives you monks furry , death kneel , and taint score to attack roll

[ArcturusV]

Not quite on Maho Bujin. It's not Flurry (Unless they'd eratted it and I don't have it) but just +3 BAB for extra attacks. Also a type change, not that it matters TOO much (though it also carries a crippling frailty to Jade, Obsidian, and Kuni Crystal). But it also gives you a template which would let you get 10 levels of Maho-Tsukai casting, make you undead, and a couple of other less useful powers (Though it's not listed on the charts as a perk, the template says that you get it after finishing the Maho Bujin or Maho Tsukai classes).

I mean it's still a pretty lame duck PrC in my book. But better than represented in there. The 1 level dip at least isn't too bad. And the full 10 isn't too bad as you're talking about becoming Undead, 10 levels of Spellcasting, death knell which can offset the costs of Maho, better Full Attack scheme, Taint to Attack, Taint Suppression.

[Vedhin]

The Maho-Bujin 10 level prc that only gives you monks furry , death kneel , and taint score to attack roll

No, Maho-Bujin is actually rather awesome. First, the only prereq is a high enough taint score. Second, you get new iterative attacks every 3 BAB instead of every 5 BAB. So at level 10 you have +10/+7/+4/+1 instead of +10/+5. At level 20 with only full BAB classes, you get +20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2. Yes, seven attacks. And that's with only a 1 level dip. Going all the way nets you automatic death knell when you kill something and 10 levels of Maho-Tsukaji casting, which allows you to take Con damage to metamagic spells, and is kinda like Tainted Sorcerer/Scholar. Oh, and that Death Knell will offset the Con damage free metamagic. You also get Taint to attack, meaning you should always hit with your obscene number of attacks, since taint is basically one of the most abusable things ever.

[Karnith]

Not quite on Maho Bujin. It's not Flurry (Unless they'd eratted it and I don't have it) but just +3 BAB for extra attacks.
While it was not updated in the errata, the Maho Bujin ability is based on the old 3.0 monk unarmed strike progression ability, which they scrapped for 3.5. If you're playing the class in 3.5, it's almost certainly going to be one of the "minor adjustments" your DM will make that the core books talk about when using 3.0 material in 3.5 games.

Also, having checked the Oriental Adventures errata, WotC apparently felt the need to nerf the Iaijutsu Master's One Strike, Two Cuts ability, which saddens me greatly.

Going all the way nets you automatic death knell when you kill something and 10 levels of Maho-Tsukaji castingNot sure where you're getting the free Maho-Tsukai casting from. Maho Bujin certainly don't get that as a class feature, and while the Akutsukai template grants that ability, there's no set way to become an Akutsukai (beyond begging your DM); it's just "characters who progress far enough in one of these prestige classes."

[Vedhin]

While it was not updated in the errata, the Maho Bujin ability is based on the old 3.0 monk unarmed strike progression ability, which they scrapped for 3.5. If you're playing the class in 3.5, it's almost certainly going to be one of the "minor adjustments" your DM will make that the core books talk about when using 3.0 material in 3.5 games.

Also, having checked the Oriental Adventures errata, WotC apparently felt the need to nerf the Iaijutsu Master's One Strike, Two Cuts ability, which saddens me greatly.
Not sure where you're getting the free Maho-Tsukai casting from. Maho Bujin certainly don't get that as a class feature, and while the Akutsukai template grants that ability, there's no set way to become an Akutsukai (beyond begging your DM); it's just "characters who progress far enough in one of these prestige classes."

IIRC, there is both an errata and a 3.5 update for OA. I think the update was in a Dragon Magazine. So not only might One Strike, Two Cuts be not nerfed, but Maho-Bujin might be fully functional.

And tell me, if 10/10 levels is not far enough, how far should you have to go? It seems to me to work like Walker in the Waste/Dry Lich, except that for Maho-Bujin it's heavily front- and back-loaded.

All of this ignoring the fact that if your taint is high enough for a Maho class you become a NPC under the DM's control.

[Karnith]

IIRC, there is both an errata and a 3.5 update for OA. I think the update was in a Dragon Magazine. So not only might One Strike, Two Cuts be not nerfed, but Maho-Bujin might be fully functional.The Dragon Magazine 3.5 update in issue 318 touches neither the Iaijutsu Master nor the Maho-Bujin (though the latter is probably intended to be replaced in 3.5 by the terribly underwhelming Tainted Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedWarrior). Luckily, different names and all that).

And tell me, if 10/10 levels is not far enough, how far should you have to go?It's not defined, meaning that it's up to the DM to decide when you get the template.

[CyberThread]

I have sort of ran out of ideas.....umm......



Shining blade of Hextor? Using the variant rules on the game, I think that would make it better, as now you can be evil?

[nedz]

Shining blade of Hextor? Using the variant rules on the game, I think that would make it better, as now you can be evil?

It's not the alignment which makes the PrC unshiney. Which variant rules were you thinking about ?

[ranagrande]

Has anyone mentioned the Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark? It's pretty terrible.

[Nettlekid]

It's not the alignment which makes the PrC unshiney. Which variant rules were you thinking about ?

Thought to be fair, SBoH would be better if you could progress Ur-Priest with it. Still not good, and yeah, you'd probably be better off taking more Ur-Priest than it, but an evil SBoH with Ur-Priest is better than a good SBoH with...I dunno, Apostle of Peace?

[CyberThread]

Apostle of peace is an awesome prc....

[Karnith]

Apostle of peace is an awesome prc....
It's significantly worse than the other fast-progression casting PrCs, though, because you can't enter until at least level 8. You're only ever ahead of normal casters at level 16; at every other level you're basically a worse cleric.

[The Viscount]

That and your Vow of Peace prerequisite means the whole party has to adhere to your code of conduct.

[Nettlekid]

I kinda like Apostle of Peace. Especially if the character is really built around the theme. I love it for a cohort, because you get to play a PC who's aware of the harsh realities of the world, and perhaps uses underhanded means to "keep the peace." Mindrape isn't killing, after all.

But as far as fast casters go, even apart from the level delay, Ur-Priest spells (that is to say, all Cleric spells) are much better than the Apostle of Peace's limited list.

[JaronK]

It's significantly worse than the other fast-progression casting PrCs, though, because you can't enter until at least level 8. You're only ever ahead of normal casters at level 16; at every other level you're basically a worse cleric.

But note that it lets you use defensive magic items while still letting you have Vow of Poverty, so it gives you VoP + Wealth. That's awesome.

JaronK

[nedz]

But note that it lets you use defensive magic items while still letting you have Vow of Poverty, so it gives you VoP + Wealth. That's awesome.

JaronK

Doesn't that break VoP and make the character no longer qualify for the class ?
It smells like a dysfunction to me.

[Scow2]

Doesn't that break VoP and make the character no longer qualify for the class ?
It smells like a dysfunction to me.

Not if the class explicitly changes how the VoP works. Then the class feature overrides the feat's original state.

[eggynack]

Doesn't that break VoP and make the character no longer qualify for the class ?
It smells like a dysfunction to me.
It looks less like a dysfunction, and more like a case of specific versus general. Either way, it looks allowed. The real dysfunction is how broadly you can define, "Magic items that protect them." It seems to be designed to let you use AC boosting items, but it doesn't explicitly say that. Does a ring of freedom of movement protect you? That makes a lot of sense. Does a healing belt protect you, by keeping you from death? It's toeing the line a little, because it's an active rather than passive defense. Does a belt of battle protect you from going last? Does a necklace of fireballs protect you from swarms of enemies? Does an apparatus of the crab protect you from not being a giant robotic crab? It's all arguable.

[TuggyNE]

Does a ring of freedom of movement protect you? That makes a lot of sense. Does a healing belt protect you, by keeping you from death? It's toeing the line a little, because it's an active rather than passive defense. Does a belt of battle protect you from going last? Does a necklace of fireballs protect you from swarms of enemies? Does an apparatus of the crab protect you from not being a giant robotic crab? It's all arguable.

"Yeah, man, these blingy gold chains protect me from being square, you dig?"

[Humble Master]

It looks less like a dysfunction, and more like a case of specific versus general. Either way, it looks allowed. The real dysfunction is how broadly you can define, "Magic items that protect them." It seems to be designed to let you use AC boosting items, but it doesn't explicitly say that. Does a ring of freedom of movement protect you? That makes a lot of sense. Does a healing belt protect you, by keeping you from death? It's toeing the line a little, because it's an active rather than passive defense. Does a belt of battle protect you from going last? Does a necklace of fireballs protect you from swarms of enemies? Does an apparatus of the crab protect you from not being a giant robotic crab? It's all arguable. It would probably just come down to what the DM would allow. I would probably restrict it to items that boosted AC, Saves or granted Damage Reduction, Damage Resistance or a similar ability.

[Rubik]

It would probably just come down to what the DM would allow. I would probably restrict it to items that boosted AC, Saves or granted Damage Reduction, Damage Resistance or a similar ability.A psychoactive skin of proteus could grant all of those.

[eggynack]

It would probably just come down to what the DM would allow. I would probably restrict it to items that boosted AC, Saves or granted Damage Reduction, Damage Resistance or a similar ability.
It seems utterly reasonable, but it could also be defined broadly enough to encompass literally any item in the world. At the very least, you could classify any given item as protecting you from not having that very item, which is crazy buns. Even if the item needs to boost AC or saves, you could just stick AC and save boosters onto all of your regular items. I don't know how far you could go with that, but the bottom line is that the designation is obviously very abusable outside of the strictest definitions. I probably wouldn't go with the necklace of fireballs, because that's clearly super offensive, but most of the items on the lists of necessary magic items are highly protective in nature, so it goes a long way. For example, is an item that grants mind blank not intrinsically protecting you as its main feature? The same goes for miss chances, stun negation, daze negation, fear immunity, immunity to death effects, and freedom of movement. That's actually me going with a pretty narrow definition, because I could obviously come up with seriously valid justifications for nearly every item on that list. These are the items that you probably can actually pick up, and they're highly helpful for any character who doesn't have native access to those abilities.

[Humble Master]

Hmm, does Vow of Poverty prevent you from getting grafts?

[JaronK]

Doesn't that break VoP and make the character no longer qualify for the class ?
It smells like a dysfunction to me.

It's weird, because there's a line in the class that makes it look like you can still use items with the vow, as long as they're defensive. That's... really strong.

JaronK

[Venger]

Hmm, does Vow of Poverty prevent you from getting grafts?

Short answer: No.

[CyberThread]

Short answer: No.


Long Answer...

Maybe....



VOW is a exalted feat, meaning if your DM thinks desecrating a foes corpse for body parts is an evil or even just neutral deed, you could lose your exalted status.

Meaning you lose the feat and its abilities granted to you.



Now if Mr Beholder is freely giving up his eye stalk so you can have a ray of death, that is up to Mr Beholder, and not an evil act...

unless mr beholder was only doing it for money anyways....which means you should have just given him the money so he could feed his baby eyeball balloons rather then pay him and lose an eyeball. You are a vow of poverty, so why do you even have that much money if not to do good with it.



*True Simple answer* Its a damn land mine waiting to happen, ask your DM

[Vedhin]

Now if Mr Beholder is freely giving up his eye stalk so you can have a ray of death, that is up to Mr Beholder, and not an evil act...


There is a CG race in Lords of Madness that likes experimenting on willing subjects with grafts. You could probably get grafts free from them, and it wouldn't cost anything because it's for science.

[Venger]

There is a CG race in Lords of Madness that likes experimenting on willing subjects with grafts. You could probably get grafts free from them, and it wouldn't cost anything because it's for science.

they're called the silthilar and have a fascinating culture.