How Would One Make Good Star Wars Sequels?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

With more Star Wars films coming out in the foreseeable future, I think it would be interesting to discuss how they could be good, and how they could suck. What would a Star Wars sequel trilogy need to do in order to feel worthy of (or even better than) the original trilogy? What mindset would one need to approach them with? How would they need to be produced?

[Tiki Snakes]

Step 1; Throw out most of the Expanded Universe. :smallwink:

Nah, seriously though, the main problem with the EU is that it often seems to go out of it's way to reverse, undo or undermine the main accomplishments or themes of the original trilogy.

For me, the most important thing would be, you know. Don't do that.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Some things I would want Star Wars Episode Seven to do ...

Not try to live up to the original trilogy, but instead try to improve on it. Really use it as a jumping off point, rather than a crutch.
Have a nice long running time (maybe 120-150 minutes), so the audience can get nice and lost in the narrative. There should be lots of setting-minutia and character development.
Not mention midichlorians. That was awful.
Really make an effort to find good actors.
Use as little CGI as possible to portray the desired imagery.
Have lightsaber fights somewhere between the original trilogy and prequels, in terms of acrobatics and pacing.

[TheThan]

1: use a good story
2: allow the actors to get into their characters and actually you know, act.
3: use as many practical effects as possible, as little GCI as possible.
4: use the original trilogy as an inspiration, not as a crutch
5: hire someone sensible to tell George Lucas, Disney “No, that’s a bad idea”.

[Kitten Champion]

Honestly, Abram's Star Trek is how I'd make Star Wars sequel.

A simple and straightforward plot, sympathetic and colourful characters, visually pleasing set pieces with smooth transitions which prevent any drag on the audiences' attention, a light tone with plenty of humour, and a big explosion at the conclusion.

The only thing I would avoid which Abrams probably won't is the glib and ultimately needless references to the OT. The apparent presence of Ford, Fisher, and Hamill implies this to me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly, Abram's Star Trek is how I'd make Star Wars sequel.

Yeah, the reason his Star Trek wasn't very good (not terrible, just not very good) is because he doesn't like what Star Trek is, and he admitted it. But for something else, it may work quite well.

[Metahuman1]

Regarding Abram's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiQ9piVgtWM

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Yeah, the reason his Star Trek wasn't very good (not terrible, just not very good) is because he doesn't like what Star Trek is, and he admitted it. But for something else, it may work quite well.

I liked his Star Trek movie, and liked the sequel even more. They seemed well-written, well-acted, well-directed, and well-paced; on top of being pretty to look at. Then again, I don't consider myself a fan of the original series. Perhaps they were made for non-fans?

[Jerthanis]

Basically, one big problem for general moviegoers is that the most recent times they've seen Star Wars at the cinema, they've been the prequels, where Stormtroopers are clones, Jedi are idiots, space democracy is corrupt and inefficient, and everything ends on a sour and dehumanizing note.

And now we're skipping ahead past the generation of a new hope, fostering it through a dark middle period, and seeing a triumph and redemption. The tone for what "Star Wars" is kind of isn't one of adventure and excitement, but of boring and frustrating analogues to our real life and sad endings.

The core fanbase is also wary... no one hated the prequels more than Star Wars fans, and we've been kind of asked to accept 'enhanced' editions of the old films.

So I think one of two options would be a good idea: Do another theater run of the classic three movies, but not the special editions, the original versions. This would remind a general audience of the tone of those movies and would announce to fans the intention of the new creative team to respect them as consumers. Then you can have an Episode VII where for all the characters' heroism, things are still dangerous and complicated, and not everyone got what they wanted after the death star blew up. Ideally the hardcore fans wouldn't blow up at their icons being tarnished with failure or a melancholy adulthood if they've been told they're respected by the creators for the first time in like, twenty years. And the general audience won't be like, "Oh yeah, life sucks, that's just how it is in Star Wars, right? Man, excited for the next one if I don't slit my wrists first." because they've just seen how hope can triumph.

Alternatively, without the original series in theaters beforehand, I'd say that I'd make Episode VII be mostly about Han Solo, and the plot mostly about getting back the Millenium Falcon, which was captured by some jerks somewhere. It could give episodes 8 and 9 to go beyond adventure.

[Thrawn183]

I'd make sure I'm in it.

On a more serious note, if they throw out the EU after all the money I spent on those books, I'm straight up boycotting the sequels.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd make sure I'm in it.

On a more serious note, if they throw out the EU after all the money I spent on those books, I'm straight up boycotting the sequels.

Does the EU really mean that much to you? Thrawn is the only part I wouldn't get rid of. He would make a good villain for the sequels.

Anyways how would I do it? Keep the Jedi limited and have it be about something like the fight between Thrawn and the New Republic. Make it clear that the New Republic is a good democracy.

[Tvtyrant]

Remember that people don't watch movies to see the future, they watch movies to see themselves in the future. The less jedi/cyborgs/sith they can put in it, the more popular it will be.

Basically, the movie should be about people and not about space history.

[tensai_oni]

1. Call Timothy Zahn
2. Arrange so you make movies based on his Thrawn trilogy
3. ???
4. Profit

[Hawriel]

As others have said. Do not copy the original but keep the style, pacing, and hands on creativity of the original.

I am not thrilled that JJ Abrams is directing the new movies, so I would want another person. He did not to Trek justice. His writer for those movies made up a plot so nonsensical there was no logic to it other than we are doing this as an excuse to have this action scene or "plot point" in the movie.

The EU can be used as inspiration for stories.

The X-Wing series
Actually The first four X-Wing books can make a great HBO series. Stretch that out to five or six seasons. That would be awesome.

Han Solo adventures and trilogy.

Thrawn trilogy.

Some EU stuff had good dies that can be handled better. For example Luke Skywalker creating a new Jedi academy is a good premise for a movie. Another one comes from the Correllion trilogy. Mon Mothma tells Luke that the Jedi should be a part of society, not cloister themselves off. That that was part of their down fall. In a nut shell do not hide from emotions understand them. Good thread to have in a Jedi academy story line.


What ever the story is for the movies it should fit with how the setting changed after the fall of the Empire.

The Fifth Element and Serenity had the feel of a Star Wars movie. I want some thing like that. That's why I was disappointed when I learned Joss Whedon turned down the job. Fire Fly and especially Serenity showed that he new exactly how to make a good successor to the original Star Wars movies.

[Feytalist]

I seem to remember the Jedi Knight games as very "filmable". Decent, straightforward plot, and Kyle Katarn is a great character.

And because it also takes place roughly the same time as the original trilogy, there's some nice possibility for maybe one or two references. Plus a small cameo from Luke, If I recall correctly? I also happen to think Desann and Tavion were pretty decent antagonists.

So yeah, make some Jedi Knight movies.

[Felhammer]

Write a quality story. Revise, revise, revise. Make it stellar.

Make sure you cast good Sci-Fi actors, you know, actors that can actually act in front of a green screen. It takes a special kind of actor to look at a blank screen and imagine the possibilities that lie within.

We don't need an all digital film. Strike a better balance between Green Screen and real sets/props than the prequels did.

Never mention midichlorians. Ever.

Make sure each movie in the trilogy is a worthy and interesting story in and of itself. Do not make a film whose sole purpose in life is to set up another movie.

Don't be beholden to the EU but at the same time don't go out of your way to change it. If things must be altered, so be it but do not invalidate 25 years of shared story telling for a single movie.

Be inspired by what came before but push yourselves to do better.

If you are going to make the movie about Jaina, Jacen and Anakin, please do your utmost to make sure those you cast will continue to be good actors even as they grow up. Kid acting and angsty teen acting are totally different. Coach them along and help them be the best they can be.

Please, don't add any more Jedi that survived Order 66. The EU already has too many. Just pick one of those and run with it.

Star Wars has a particular visual style, please do not change it willy nilly.

The Galaxy isn't just full of near-humans and humans, make sure to include lots of aliens.

Perhaps make more of the principal cast Aliens?

Please use the old cast sparingly unless they are the central focus on the film.

[Felhammer]

1. Call Timothy Zahn
2. Arrange so you make movies based on his Thrawn trilogy
3. ???
4. Profit

Mark Hamil is 61, Harrison Ford is 70, Carrie Fisher is 56 and Billy Dee Williams is 76. Any chance of there being a Thrawn movie with the original cast has sailed, long, long ago. :smallfrown:

[Jerthanis]

I'd make sure I'm in it.

On a more serious note, if they throw out the EU after all the money I spent on those books, I'm straight up boycotting the sequels.

Here is why I would suggest not using the EU at all:

If they introduce in Episode VII's title crawl that Jacen, Jaina and Anakin are little more than babies, you can expect Thrawn and you know how that will end, more or less. If they're introduced as roughtly teenage, you might guess some of the weird middle adventures like Centerpoint, Crystal Star or Young Jedi Knights stuff and you know how those end. If they're introduced as adults, you can expect Vong and we all wish we didn't know how THAT ends. If they're introduced at all, you will know their story ends as tragically as any story CAN end.

But if they introduce Han and Leia's only child, a son named Corwin... no matter what his age they introduce him at, no matter how old Luke, Leia and Han are now... just on that detail alone you don't know how this story is going to end.

And not already knowing that everything you see happening on screen in front of you is going to end in tragedy is something Star Wars desperately needs right now.

[The Succubus]

1. Call Timothy Zahn
2. Arrange so you make movies based on his Thrawn trilogy
3. ???
4. Profit

This. For the love of all things divine and sweet, this.

I'm also against the idea of Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher coming back, unless it is very much in cameo roles. They were good in their time...but now they'll just look like charicatures of themselves. :smallfrown:

[Hopeless]

Mark Hamil is 61, Harrison Ford is 70, Carrie Fisher is 56 and Billy Dee Williams is 76. Any chance of there being a Thrawn movie with the original cast has sailed, long, long ago. :smallfrown:

But not if its an animated movie!:smallwink:

[hamishspence]

The current consensus seems to be that Lucasfilm have said, several times, that it will be an "original story" which rules out it being a reinterpreted Thrawn Trilogy.

There's a lot of debate over whether any post-RoTJ EU will remain "canon" at the moment.

[Hopeless]

With more Star Wars films coming out in the foreseeable future, I think it would be interesting to discuss how they could be good, and how they could suck. What would a Star Wars sequel trilogy need to do in order to feel worthy of (or even better than) the original trilogy? What mindset would one need to approach them with? How would they need to be produced?

Personally I think they need to remember there's more to Star Wars than the adventures of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and his kids.

Set it elsewhere maybe during the Dark Times make a Clone Wars animated movie version to set up a new series like the Rebel series they mentioned but most of all introduce new characters!

Cameo's are fine as long as they aren't to serve as the protagonists of your new movie, maybe have someone whose met Han Solo and we see them refer to them briefly even if noone outside of the audience will get the reference or the clip since the rest of the movie shouldn't.

If its set in the now according to Return of the Jedi from the eighties make it relevant by using the EU to a limited extent by that I mean have a few easter eggs but don't base your movie on it.

Most of all remember that it shouldn't be Jedi overload as it should appeal to a wider audience and needs to make its own mark just as the original Star Wars did in the seventies.

Now the questions remains...

1) Who do you fancy as the villain of the piece do you want it to be the Imperial Remaint or some holdover of the Sith whether a Palpatine or Vader clone or something else?

Remember Anakin lost his hand in Attack of the Clones if Zahn can get a clone of Luke from his hand lost at the end of Empire Strikes Back then they can clone Darth Vader before he ended up in that body suit.

2) Who do you want to play the main cast of this movie?

Jason Statham playing a Han Solo variation?

Jason Franks of Power Rangers fame playing a Jedi Knight?

I mean after all he's pretty much covers the basics!:smallamused:

I'd definitely like to see Lando involved as their patron... someone ha to be owed a few debts to get Jaon Statham involved!

Of course this is being done by Disney so that opens up quite a field but who would you like to see in a Star Wars movie?

[hamishspence]

Cameo's are fine as long as they aren't to serve as the protagonists of your new movie, maybe have someone whose met Han Solo and we see them refer to them briefly even if noone outside of the audience will get the reference or the clip since the rest of the movie shouldn't.

If its set in the now according to Return of the Jedi from the eighties make it relevant by using the EU to a limited extent by that I mean have a few easter eggs but don't base your movie on it.

This is pretty much what I'm hoping for- but I fear they might not even bother to do that.

[Hopeless]

So what do we know about the cast for Star Wars 7?

I heard something about them auditioning for various people mostly all "fit" which naturally assumes healthy and able to outrun the Rock... well that would be what I assume as "fit" I don't know about you but if you can outrun or outmaneuver the Rock you should be pretty damn good but that still leaves the ability to act mind you now out act the Rock now that might be taking things a little too far...:smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

One of the biggest things that I would complain about in the new movies was that they seemed to try and cram in a lot of references to the OLD movies. I guess it was so that all the casual fans could feel good about themselves recognizing characters or events, but it meant that the story had to twist around alot to meet these expectations.

Basically, if you write a GOOD story then people will like it, and you won't be forced to contort the plot to link it to the previous versions.



Also, I'm not sure how to qualify this, but in the first new movie, I thought that the actor playing Anakin (Jake Lloyd was his name, I think) was too young. He was supposed to be 8 in the movie, which apparently is to old for the Jedi (wow that could sound kind of creepy in the wrong context). I guess that means the Jedi only recruit infants and toddlers (does the term "child soldier" mean anything to you?).

Out of story, if they had gotten some one a little older maybe they could have found an actor with a more developed skill set, and the acting wouldn't have been quite so wooden.
In story, I think it would have made both the romantic aspects and the subsequent fall to the dark side more believable. It's hard for me to reconcile how the cute little kid morphs into the person we see in Episode 3. If he was more like 12-14 at the start, then the natural rebeliousness of teenager-dom would have coincided with his induction into the Jedi's monastic order, and a lot of the friction would have seemed more reasonable.

So however you would classify that, avoid it.
Maybe it can be summed up as "no one under 21 in the movie".

[hamishspence]

Also, I'm not sure how to qualify this, but in the first new movie, I thought that the actor playing Anakin (Jake Lloyd was his name, I think) was too young. He was supposed to be 8 in the movie, which apparently is to old for the Jedi (wow that could sound kind of creepy in the wrong context). I guess that means the Jedi only recruit infants and toddlers (does the term "child soldier" mean anything to you?).

The actor was younger than the character- the novelization tells us he was 9, going on 10, whereas Jake Lloyd was 8 or so at the time the movie was filmed.

[Grif]

Here is why I would suggest not using the EU at all:

If they introduce in Episode VII's title crawl that Jacen, Jaina and Anakin are little more than babies, you can expect Thrawn and you know how that will end, more or less. If they're introduced as roughtly teenage, you might guess some of the weird middle adventures like Centerpoint, Crystal Star or Young Jedi Knights stuff and you know how those end. If they're introduced as adults, you can expect Vong and we all wish we didn't know how THAT ends. If they're introduced at all, you will know their story ends as tragically as any story CAN end.

But if they introduce Han and Leia's only child, a son named Corwin... no matter what his age they introduce him at, no matter how old Luke, Leia and Han are now... just on that detail alone you don't know how this story is going to end.

And not already knowing that everything you see happening on screen in front of you is going to end in tragedy is something Star Wars desperately needs right now.

QFT.

Really, anything they do now should be better than the EU post-NJO period. I for one look forward to this. At the very least, the EU could start anew and perhaps not screw it so badly.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

The actor was younger than the character- the novelization tells us he was 9, going on 10, whereas Jake Lloyd was 8 or so at the time the movie was filmed.

There is a novelization of Episode One? Oh no.

[Feytalist]

There is a novelization of Episode One? Oh no.

Written by Terry Brooks, no less.

It's surprisingly not bad.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Written by Terry Brooks, no less.

It's surprisingly not bad.

I might have to read it, simply because it sounds like it would be spectacularly terrible. I would be interested to see such a horrible combination of author and source material turn out well.

[Deepbluediver]

The actor was younger than the character- the novelization tells us he was 9, going on 10, whereas Jake Lloyd was 8 or so at the time the movie was filmed.

That would only seem to confirm my point then. A really young actor like that might be able to carry a G-rated children's movie, but Star Wars is not that movie. He either should have been older, or been relegated to "plot device" and given less screen time.


Really, anything they do now should be better than the EU post-NJO period. I for one look forward to this. At the very least, the EU could start anew and perhaps not screw it so badly.

Just to be curious, how many people do you think know about the Star Wars EU? Dedicated fans do, certainly, but I get the impression that it's much less widely disseminated than something like Marvel and DC's superheroes.

This isn't a challenge on wether or not it would be a good thing to use, but what percentage of people who went to see the movies would go into it knowing the outcome?

[hamishspence]

Written by Terry Brooks, no less.

It's surprisingly not bad.

It has quite a few extra scenes, as well as a bit of background on the Sith (Sidious's musing to himself).

There's also a novelization aimed at younger ages- written by Patricia C. Wrede- but I'm not sure what differences that one has.

[TheEmerged]

"Once upon a time in a DIFFERENT galaxy, far away but in a DIFFERENT direction..." Before we go any further, yes I know this smacks of the argument about whether or not it would still be Star Wars if this was the case. But it might be the best way to have a Star Wars movie without having to step on EU toes.

I also agree we need to go back to the more upbeat tone of the original movies. Grimdark has had its day in the shadow, so to speak, we'd like our heroes back.

[rapter200]

I hear a lot of people calling for the destruction of the EU and starting anew. I have a slight problem with this and that is what about all the ships that were introduced in the expanded universe. You can keep your Jedi, Sith, and Vong, but the EU has over time developed an awesome list machinery. The possibility of losing these ships make me sad. I love the Eclipse, I love all the different types of Star Destroyers. Star Wars for me has always been about the Space Battles. So I guess I would increase the amount of space battles in the new movies.

[Forum Explorer]

I hear a lot of people calling for the destruction of the EU and starting anew. I have a slight problem with this and that is what about all the ships that were introduced in the expanded universe. You can keep your Jedi, Sith, and Vong, but the EU has over time developed an awesome list machinery. The possibility of losing these ships make me sad. I love the Eclipse, I love all the different types of Star Destroyers. Star Wars for me has always been about the Space Battles. So I guess I would increase the amount of space battles in the new movies.

I doubt they'd directly contradict any of the ships.

Except the Eclipse. That's the one with the mini death star laser right? I can see them scrapping that one.

[hamishspence]

There's at least 3 classes of superlaser-armed ship (Eclipse, Sovereign, and recently, Assertor- from The Essential Guide to Warfare).

And at least one Star Destroyer converted to hold a superlaser- the Conqueror from Star Wars Galaxies.

[Porthos]

Here's the thing about the Expanded Universe.

No one is going to break in and steal your books. No one is going to send a data spike down the intrawebs to erase your hard drives. No one is going to knock on your door and flash a flashy thing at your eyes making you forget the EU.

They'll still be on your bookshelf, your computer, and your memories.

IT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

So SW:VII ISN'T doing away with the EU, because it can't. It will exist as long as people care about it.

Now it is certainly true that it may no longer be updated with new stories and adventures. But, well, nothing's eternal. :smallsmile:

I say this not to be a smart alec, but to remind people that even if SW:VII isn't set in the EU (and it won't be), it ultimately doesn't matter. The stories told will still exist. The stories told will have still have made you happy/sad. The stories told will live on forever.

And isn't that what is important?

====

As for what I would do? First off, I would go back to Star Wars's roots. SW and Indiana Jones were supposed to be callbacks to the great Republic serials of yesteryear. They were rip-roaring adventures with DRAMA! SUSPENCE! ROMANCE! ADVENTURE! CLIFFHANGERS! And so forth.

Don't worry about pleasing everyone, coz you can't. But go back to that simple formula. Even Empire follows it to a large degree.

What I wouldn't worry about is people complaining about CGI. What I would do is remember that CGI is a tool. If I think it will help me tell my story, I use it. If I am tempted to use it just so people go "Ooooooh", I step back and remember not to do that.

Really, that's it. Well, write a good story and hire compelling actors. But that's self-evident, I would think.

Callbacks to the original movies? Irrelevant. They can work within the story quite well if it is a well written story. Or they can be completely absent and not be missed.

Hints to a meta-plot that spans several movies? Sure. It's the 'in thing'. But just remember that if this movie ain't any good, you've just shot yourself in the foot when it comes to future returns.

Above all, I would make SW:VII fun. Doesn't mean it can't have depth. Doesn't mean it can't have complex characters. It also doesn't mean it can't have moments of silliness. But what I would strive above all else is to make the audience, when they walked out say "Damn, that was a really great time. I can't wait to see it again."

[SuperPanda]

For me I'd look at what makes Star Wars is and what makes Star Wars work first.

Star Wars is the Hero's jounrey， its blow for blow a retellign of mythology and Fantasy. It is far more Fantasy than Science Fiction, but it got given a high-tech gloss and snappy special effects.

Special Effects wise, Star Wars was cutting edge, it was pushing what was possible to and beyond the envelope. The Matrix is a successor of films of that nature. Story wise it isn't too complex but the absolutely stunning visuals created a world our imaginations wanted filling up. (Apart from the terrible ending, I think The Thirteenth Floor dealt with the story/concept of a virtual world far better than the Matrix did... but that's for another thread.)

The tone and the mood was "in-your-face" adventure with the bad guys being really bad and the good guys being sorta-bad-but-really-good-once-you-get-to-know-them

How I'd do Episode VII would be zero in on a system (or small set of systems) which are away from anywhere we've looked at before (if possible not touched on in the EU either). A Kafka-esque mood to the beurcratic nightmare that is the collapsing Empire. 3 factions to worry about. A shard remenant of the Empire, an business venture (legit, or criminal) trying to lay claim to the sysem(s), and a mysterious other.

One protagonist should be from the Imperial side of things. This person hates the "rebels" because of all the havoc they caused for boarder worlds like the one they're on. This character wants to do what they can to help everyone but they believe in The Law. (This character could easily be the Captain of the guard from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame).

One protagonist is a rebel whose returned home now that the new government is (supposedly) taking over. The two above will be working at cross purposes and competing with eachother throughout the first act of the film (bonus points - they are competing for the love of respective love interests who are actually interested in the oppostite party... ala A midsummer's Night). One of the love interests is part of the business venture (if criminal in nature s/he loves the Imperial, if its legit but oppressive s/he loves the Rebel) bonus points if this love interested leads to resolving a plot point (if a "he" then plot point is resolved with a him "distracting the guards" while the Good Guys sneak in. If a she then she uses her power and influence in the group to help compromise with the Imperial faction.)

Children will play a role in the story, parent aged adults should be the main characters.

Third faction: AI themed Fey... a group of droids, angry at their mistreatment in the clone wars are stealing children and reprograming them (changelings) as part of some nefarious scheme (later revealed to be pure, simple spite... the one Emotion Palpatine programed into them).

Credit roll... only because without one it wouldn't be starwars... also having a prologue like that fits my inspiration.

Act 1: Establishes politics, child snatching, some weird crimes being commited by poor children. Midsummer's love diamond established. Some mystic-bable about how lightsabers will be usable for the film's protagonists and villains. Builds a crisis between the two competing powers and a summit to attempt to resolve differences.

Turn - reprogramed child blows up conference.

Act 2: The investigation, the two competing hero teams work against eachother looking into the terrorist attacks (The Imperial looking into the children side of things and the Rebel looking into the government side of things). They're tricked into fighting eachother a couple times. Builds towards evidence of a massive attack being planned that needs both groups to cooperate to stop it.

Turn - team Imperial is kidnapped and reprogramed.

Act 3： Team rebel keeps working to try to get the two groups to work together while team Imperial, now reprogramed tries to make things worse. Most of this act is used for the fight sequenes which is where the FX teams really get to let loose.

Team Rebel recruit some second string hero teams from among the street kids, families of the changelings, and everyday people from both factions to do the real hero work of tracking down the evil AI-fey's base and planting EMP charges. One team stumbles on a way to reverse the programing.

Big climactic fight with Team Imperial and Team Rebel in which the Rebel team is handicaped trying to reverse the programing. Their Mcguffin is destroyed and all hope seems lost until a street kid gets in the way and Imerial's sense of honor overrides the programing (because that is the kind of story we're telling). The two them reverse the programming all around and destroy the AI-fey (the f'A-I).

Space battles in acts 1 and 2, lightsabers in Act 2 and 3. Shakespear and fairytale references all around but not to much. The Rom Com is tonned down for the horror aspect to be played up.

Last scene is someone running up to the 4 protagonists and saying: the boss person wants to give you a medal at a big ceremony with everyone dressed up formally and cheering for you... and them saying no.

[Hopeless]

So far sounds like we're taking ideas for a future movies or a tv series if we're very lucky!

Okay characters;

The New Republic has assumed control but things haven't improved after all one problem the Republic had was from corruption in their ranks and I don't see that changing any time soon.

So the new Governor holds an annual celebration to mark the founding of the New Republic, important figures invited and during the celebration they're attacked.

Maybe a couple hurt possibly one killed not necessarily the cameo originals but someone connected to them say someone they're mentored.

So have a couple of Jedi Knights and their padawans perhaps one having been promoted recently enough that they still don't have a padawan and make their finding one part of this movie.

Another character be a former Imperial say Corsec but having left the organisation during the fall of the Empire because they're thought corrupt when they're not.

Approached to help with the security on the day they're directly responsible for thwarting the attack but lost the friend who recruited them so say she has a reason to want to find out whose responsible but she doesn't care for the Jedi because they remind her too much of Vader and his cohorts.

Maybe include a few rogues say a smuggler who knows the former Corsec because they helped her get onworld and whilst the new local police think she's involved allowing the Jedi involved to be as suspicious of her as she is of them since we later reveal she's force sensitive and was a padawan to her great aunt who left the Order in protest at the Jedi being used as Generals in the War and tried to keep her padawan safe only to be killed by fellow Jedi who saw her as allied to Count Dooku.

Sorry going too far but I'd like some links to the old movies even the prequels especially if they explain there were faults on both sides and even Palpatine wasn't responsible for all of that even if he did play both sides against each other.

Makes it more interesting if they reveal the former Republic was doomed for the right reasons rather than make Palpatine out to be more competent than he actually was (handrails anyone?).

[Carry2]

Nah, seriously though, the main problem with the EU is that it often seems to go out of it's way to reverse, undo or undermine the main accomplishments or themes of the original trilogy.
Yeah... Doesn't the Emperor come back, like, 5 or 6 times?

I think the Extended Universe is something you might mine for ideas and drop in references to in the same way that Nolan purloined elements from a lot of classic batman arcs for the DK trilogy, but lifting out specific plot or character arcs wholesale is probably a bad idea.

However, I think the problems people talk about with the EU are symptomatic of a larger problem: Utopia does not have any looming problems, and particularly lacks the kind of problems that Star Wars protagonists are known for handling. Picard or Spock might be able to get away with several hours of politicised cloak-and-dagger mystery, but when Jedi do it, people get bored out of their skulls*. Sure, Han and Luke and Leia and the Alliance in general probably have some mopping up to do in gun-totin' military terms, but either it's (A) peanuts compared to the Death Star and Emperor, or you (B) wind up trivialising their victory over the latter. There's only so much galaxy out there, so where are you getting your antagonism from?


Yeah, the reason his Star Trek wasn't very good (not terrible, just not very good) is because he doesn't like what Star Trek is, and he admitted it. But for something else, it may work quite well.
I'd have to admit here that I have mixed feelings about Star Wars at the best of times (at the time I actually watched the prequels, I didn't find them more or less awful that the OT, though I've warmed a bit to Empire since then, and found Menace/Clones more tedious.) So I might not be the best person to look at for ideas on how to do Star Wars right. I will say that Star Trek works harder to give the superficial impression of scientific cohesion** and Star Wars works harder to give the superficial impression of everyman appeal, which is probably why the concept of midichlorians went down so poorly***.


* I realise this has more to do with the specific scripting quality of the prequels than a fundamental defect in the concept, but a fair share of complaints with the prequels were specifically focused on how jarring and alien the shift toward galactic politics and trade negotiations and muddied alliances felt, compared with the visceral good vs. evil appeal of the original trilogy.)

** Star Trek doesn't actually make particular scientific sense, but given that most episodes revolve around a kind of mystery whodunnit to be resolved and explained, it's appeal is based on reinforcing the world-view of an orderly and knowable universe. Which, in that narrow sense, accounts for much of it's popularity among the technically-minded.

*** In a sense, midichlorians were just telling people what they already knew from watching RotJ- That force sensitivity runs in families and isn't universal. Which kind of undercuts the idea of everyman appeal, but I don't see how that suddenly became a problem with phantom menace. What folks really objected to was the idea that the Force had some kind of measurable, materialistic explanation: in other words, was science.


I have written too many footnotes.

[Aotrs Commander]

Actually, I would do the Thrawn trilogy in movie form, but told entirely from the Imperial perspective (padded out, obviously, with new Imperial characters like the Real Hero of TIE Fighter (i.e. not his comedically inept wingman Marik Stele like all that rebel propaganda tells you). And then for the times when it is relative or necessary to have the original cast cameo (Luke on the ISD, for example), use a combination of motion-capture, CGI and the actor's voice acting for those points. (Which you could get away with for small bursts.)



Failing that, I'd set it post-Thrawn/X-Wing (we can afford to cut out the later EU, even if at the expense of the Hand of Thrawn et al) and go from there, starting with Thrawn's clone popping back and going from there and/or telling a tale elsewhere and not centric to the Skywalker/Solo clan.

Ideally showing the Empire kicking all manner of rebel arse by turning up with a fleet full Assault Gunboats, TIEe Avengers, TIE Defender and Missile Boats.

(In all cases, contribution of Force and lightsabres would be minimal only when absolutely required.)

Because at the end of the day, I could care less about magic space samurai and their evil counterparts, since it's all about the starship battles.



Actually, scrub all that.

The best Star Wars sequel trilogy would be a three-part nine hour starship battle. Context would be largely unnecessary.

[Tiki Snakes]

As much as I think that would be a pretty horrible take on a sequel trilogy, there has been talk about spin offs, side stories and non trilogy movies. I think a movie told from the point of view of the imperial remnant, dealing with the sudden loss of both Vader and the Emperor over the course of a single protracted space battle or series of battles could be pretty damn cool.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Does the EU really mean that much to you? Thrawn is the only part I wouldn't get rid of. He would make a good villain for the sequels.

Anyways how would I do it? Keep the Jedi limited and have it be about something like the fight between Thrawn and the New Republic. Make it clear that the New Republic is a good democracy.

That's sort of the point (for me) which leads into:

1) Have a really good villain. Ideally, one you can keep through multiple movies. In a sense, this was what really drove Star Wars the original films.

2) No comic relief or "fuzzy cute" nonhumans. They don't all have to look like they came from a horror movie, but everything about the Gungans was nausea-inducing.

3) If you're going to have Jedi (and they should) really show them off as competent without being omnicompetent.

[Tyrant]

I would go just past whatever the most recent book is (I believe it is the upcoming Crucible by Troy Denning). Maybe 5 years or so past that. Make references to the fact that many other events have come and gone and left their mark of the galaxy, heroes have lived and died, etc. At some point maybe throw out the occasional EU reference.

If you go this route, the EU is intact (well, the stuff 120 some odd years after Yavin might not be) without really having to delve into it. If someone wants to find out what happened, they can read the books. If they don't, they won't miss anything. It also allows the main 3 to look somewhat age appropriate and to explain why they aren't the main characters now (because they should be retired or are too busy in the government/Jedi). If they wanted, they could pass the torch to the next generation of Skywalkers and Solos, or they could focus on a whole new mix of characters.

I would also take the better parts of the EU, like the Thrawn Trilogy, and make them into animated movies. Preferably not in the Clone Wars style. I would like them to find whoever made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU) and give them a pile of money to adapt the EU and maybe make an ongoing series.

[Carry2]

I would like them to find whoever made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU) and give them a pile of money to adapt the EU and maybe make an ongoing series.
Impressive... most impressive.

I think the idea of an empire-centric film could actually be pretty interesting, I'm just not sure you'd get it to play with audiences.

[Forum Explorer]

I would go just past whatever the most recent book is (I believe it is the upcoming Crucible by Troy Denning). Maybe 5 years or so past that. Make references to the fact that many other events have come and gone and left their mark of the galaxy, heroes have lived and died, etc. At some point maybe throw out the occasional EU reference.

If you go this route, the EU is intact (well, the stuff 120 some odd years after Yavin might not be) without really having to delve into it. If someone wants to find out what happened, they can read the books. If they don't, they won't miss anything. It also allows the main 3 to look somewhat age appropriate and to explain why they aren't the main characters now (because they should be retired or are too busy in the government/Jedi). If they wanted, they could pass the torch to the next generation of Skywalkers and Solos, or they could focus on a whole new mix of characters.

I would also take the better parts of the EU, like the Thrawn Trilogy, and make them into animated movies. Preferably not in the Clone Wars style. I would like them to find whoever made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU) and give them a pile of money to adapt the EU and maybe make an ongoing series.

That sounds pretty bad idea actually. There is so much stuff in the EU and really it'd be confusing to jump into. Really I tried reading one of the latest and I was completely confused by all of these new characters and aliens. Imagine if you've only watched the movies. Dealing with Solo's kids (One of which is evil! One died offscreen!) Mara Jade (Who is She?!) and all of the new Jedi (Where did they all come from?) would be horrible.

[Aotrs Commander]

I would like them to find whoever made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU) and give them a pile of money to adapt the EU and maybe make an ongoing series.

Unholy fracking crap.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!

Ahahahahahaha!

Long live the Empire and Grand Admiral Thrawn!

[TheThan]

Most people don’t think that they should bring back Mark Hamil, Harrison Ford and the rest as their characters.

I disagree, I think you can bring them back. However we really can’t bring them back as the big darn heroes they were. I think it would be interesting if Luke, Leia, Han etc were brought back as mentor figures for the actual heroes. This totally brings Luke full circle, and echoes back to his original adventure, where he was mentored by Obi-Wan and Yoda. It also adds new dimension to the other established characters as they get to impart knowledge onto the next generation.

I actually like the idea of this being done as a story telling device. Think back to the Young Indiana Jones tv series. Indi simply sat there and told stories about his past. That’s a nice story telling device considering the age of the actors. They could bring in new actors to fill the role, though that could break people’s suspension of disbelief too much. I can totally see this being a TV series, much like the above mentioned Young Indiana Jones series.

[Tyrant]

That sounds pretty bad idea actually. There is so much stuff in the EU and really it'd be confusing to jump into. Really I tried reading one of the latest and I was completely confused by all of these new characters and aliens. Imagine if you've only watched the movies. Dealing with Solo's kids (One of which is evil! One died offscreen!) Mara Jade (Who is She?!) and all of the new Jedi (Where did they all come from?) would be horrible.
That's why the movies would be set after and mostly gloss over it. It happened, but would have little impact on whatever the story of Episode VII and onward would be (beyond certain characters and factions being present, and even then they could be mostly ignored if the plot isn't about them). I am talking a mention in the crawl that a lot of stuff happened (written a little more poetically than that obviously, but not delving into a 10 minute crawl that details the last 20 years of SW novels), and maybe some tidbits like a galactic war memorial where some of the characters meet (once) and those who know the EU will recognize some of the statues (like Mara Jade, for instance) and some of the names but the rest of the audience thinks it's purely window dressing.

The OT had this and it worked. We knew of the Clone Wars, the Republic, and the Jedi through little tidbits here and there, but we didn't know much about them. It spoke to a history of this universe that made it seem a little more real. The only major difference here is that if a non EU fan or curious audience member is so inclined, they can actually read up on it because this particular history is written down somewhere and not just scribbles in George Lucas's notebook.

I think it would help in not actively upsetting a part of the audience for no clear gain in such a way that the casual viewer won't also be upset.

[rapter200]

Impressive... most impressive.

I think the idea of an empire-centric film could actually be pretty interesting, I'm just not sure you'd get it to play with audiences.

I think Star Wars is unique in that its fan base is highly divided into the Imperial Camp and Rebel Camp. Me personally I love the Empire. I think an Imperial centric movie trilogy telling the tale of a just some regular Tie Fighter Pilots would be awesome and make the public sympathetic to the Empire. Also Rebel Capital ships suck.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

What are these Thrawn books? Should I give them a look?

[Aotrs Commander]

What are these Thrawn books? Should I give them a look?

Unqualified yes. (If you can find them, they are about twenty years old now.)

Timothy Zhan's Thrawn trilogy is by miles the best of the expanded universe - a little depressingly, since they were among the first, and largely responsible for the resurgance of interest in SW in the ninties - with only the Michel A Stackpole's and Aaron Allston's X-Wing novels coming close behind, and a veritable chasm between the latter and the rest.

I personally consider the Thrawn books to be the best bits of Star Wars period (even over the movies themselves.)

[GoddessSune]

What would a Star Wars sequel trilogy need to do in order to feel worthy of (or even better than) the original trilogy? What mindset would one need to approach them with? How would they need to be produced?

It is not so hard:

1)Hire a good Hollywood writer who is not a Star Wars fan, not a Sci-fi fan, and is more of the ''sci-fi is stuff for little kids and real drama is about blah, blah, blah'' write an action/adventure story.

2)Have someone who is still not a hard core fan, but knows Star Wars good enough. Have them go through the story and change things like ''cop'' to ''jedi'' and ''sail boat'' to ''space ship.''

3)Have a super hard core fan write the greatest Star Wars movie ever.

4)Have a regular, non Hollywood guy from anywhere else, go over the fan story and ''tone down'' things to normal. Making the ''temporal light sabers that can cut through time'' back to ''just light sabers'' and eliminate the things like ''and they crash land on Yondra...Yoda's home world!''

5)Now take both stories and compare them. Look at the things that both stories have in common, and the differences. Then use both stories to make a third story: The new Star Wars movie.

[Forum Explorer]

That's why the movies would be set after and mostly gloss over it. It happened, but would have little impact on whatever the story of Episode VII and onward would be (beyond certain characters and factions being present, and even then they could be mostly ignored if the plot isn't about them). I am talking a mention in the crawl that a lot of stuff happened (written a little more poetically than that obviously, but not delving into a 10 minute crawl that details the last 20 years of SW novels), and maybe some tidbits like a galactic war memorial where some of the characters meet (once) and those who know the EU will recognize some of the statues (like Mara Jade, for instance) and some of the names but the rest of the audience thinks it's purely window dressing.

The OT had this and it worked. We knew of the Clone Wars, the Republic, and the Jedi through little tidbits here and there, but we didn't know much about them. It spoke to a history of this universe that made it seem a little more real. The only major difference here is that if a non EU fan or curious audience member is so inclined, they can actually read up on it because this particular history is written down somewhere and not just scribbles in George Lucas's notebook.

I think it would help in not actively upsetting a part of the audience for no clear gain in such a way that the casual viewer won't also be upset.

Yes but that's hundreds of years in the future at this point. And that means someone who just watched the movies is going to have a massive disconnect between RotJ and the new movie. So instead of throwing out the EU you are basically throwing out the original movies.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I would like them to find whoever made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU) and give them a pile of money to adapt the EU and maybe make an ongoing series.

Hey that's that guy that made the anime style Doctor Who (http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/61811/Doctor-Who-anime-FINAL/)

[HamHam]

Yes but that's hundreds of years in the future at this point. And that means someone who just watched the movies is going to have a massive disconnect between RotJ and the new movie. So instead of throwing out the EU you are basically throwing out the original movies.

Is a direct sequel even on the table? Can they get anyone back other than Harrison Ford? What story is there even to tell that works for a trilogy but doesn't undermine the ending?

Basically you're choices are an adaptation of Jedi Academy or Legacy (even if they aren't technically such. The next generation, or way way in the future.

[Tyrant]

Yes but that's hundreds of years in the future at this point.
? No it's not. I don't have one of my books handy but I believe the most recent books involving the OT main characters are 40-50 years after the movies. That is the period I am talking about. If we have to sacrifice the Legacy comics then so be it, although with the gap in between (I believe they are 120 years later) they could still work unless they go out of their way to invalidate them.

[warty goblin]

Speaking as the sort of person who would probably see a Star Wars movie if it got decent reviews, but doesn't care about Star Wars as a thing, really just make a fun space adventure. Ignore the EU if it gets in the way of that - and if you do stick it in don't call it out as some sort of weird fanservice, just put it in if it works - toss in a coupla lightsabers, a bit of mumbo-jumbo about the Force, and I'm happy.

The nice thing about this is that you can basically ignore the fans. They'll watch it anyway; after all they watched the prequels. If it's a legit fun space adventure everybody wins, and the fans can spend the next four years complaining on the internet about ignoring canon. Episode 1 came out over a decade ago now, so they need something new to complain about. If they do stick to the EU, the fans will still spend four years complaining about anything they did change, and the people actually making the movie have less latitude to make a fun space adventure.

[Forum Explorer]

Is a direct sequel even on the table? Can they get anyone back other than Harrison Ford? What story is there even to tell that works for a trilogy but doesn't undermine the ending?

Basically you're choices are an adaptation of Jedi Academy or Legacy (even if they aren't technically such. The next generation, or way way in the future.

I'd be fine with the actors being swapped. Simply because it's been that long.



? No it's not. I don't have one of my books handy but I believe the most recent books involving the OT main characters are 40-50 years after the movies. That is the period I am talking about. If we have to sacrifice the Legacy comics then so be it, although with the gap in between (I believe they are 120 years later) they could still work unless they go out of their way to invalidate them.

Eh, I don't know. If we use it right after the latest book there will be a bunch of EU stuff that nobody will know. So we'd have to give it even more time. I just think it'd be best to discard the EU, or just use good parts of the EU and ignore the rest. I mean that's what they essentially do already.

[HamHam]

I'd be fine with the actors being swapped. Simply because it's been that long.

But is the lowest common denominator?

If Han Solo is in these movies... he's gonna have to be played by Harrison Ford. You might get away with Luke and Leia since neither of them are all that well known outside the usual circles these days AFAIK.

[Felhammer]

Yes but that's hundreds of years in the future at this point. And that means someone who just watched the movies is going to have a massive disconnect between RotJ and the new movie. So instead of throwing out the EU you are basically throwing out the original movies.

The current novels are set 40 years after a New Hope. The only things in the EU that are set beyond that are the Legacy Comics, which no one is expecting to survive the onslaught of a post RotJ movies unscathed.

None of the original actors are young enough to play a convincing lead in an action-adventure movie outside of the mentor figure. Episode VII will not be successful if they try to make it like the movie RED. No one expects a 70 year old Harrison Ford to be jumping out of the Millennium Falcon, guns ablazing. No one wants to see a 56 year old Carrie Fisher in a slave girl outfit. It just won't work. :smallfrown:

Setting Episode 7 fifty years after A New Hope really isn't that different than setting a prequel movie 32 years before A New Hope. No one was confused by the Phantom Menace even though we had no idea who most of the characters were, how their society was run, their history, their culture or anything else. It was just presented as "Here is the world, learn as you go."

It's no different than when we first started watching A New Hope. Who was that dark scary dude choking people? What is up with that desert planet? Why is there a Princess, what is she a princess of? What is the Death Star?

Those two movies showcased the essentials of what was important to the plot and the world they were presenting.

Episode VII will be no different. :smallsmile:

Do we need to mention Thrawn? No. The Ssi'ruu? No. Vong? No. How Luke re-founded the Jedi Order? No. We can literally walk into this world and just explore it as it unfolds before our eyes. :smallsmile:

There is only one thing that desperately needs to be explained - Where is Chewie? That's it. That is the only piece of Star Wars lore that needs to be explained to the general audience. Where is Chewie?

Setting Episode VII after the EU is the perfect way to satisfy everyone. 99.999% of EU is preserved and the future is completely unknown and open to any and all whims the script writers have.

Having said that, I don't see the writers availing themselves of this option. I honestly think the movies will be about the Solo children. It's one of the most compelling events to happen in the EU that allows the original actors to be present in the new movies but be sidelined by a younger cast.

The script writers will write what they want, EU be damned. Hardcore fans will try to integrate everything and fail. We could, potentially, lose everything between 9 ABY and the present. It will suck. There will be much gnashing of teeth but in the end the fans will accept the changes and resign themselves to complaining bitterly about how Star Wars was better before JJ Abrams showed up (i.e. what a very large segment of the Star Trek community is currently doing). :smallfrown:

[Hopeless]

Okay well Return of the Jedi was released in 1983 and was 4 years after the battle of Yavin.

So 2015 is 32 years later so thats 36 years after the Battle of Yavin maybe more... so what happened in the timeline around then?

■35 ABY ■Efforts to rebuild galactic civilization after the Yuuzhan Vong war continue, with many war-torn worlds still under reconstruction.
■The Jedi, struggling to come to terms with a new role in the galaxy and a new philosophy on the Force are called upon to act as police and diplomats by the Galactic Alliance, despite the wishes of Luke Skywalker.
■Luke Skywalker sees an image of his mother for the first time through R2-D2.
■A mysterious alien race called the Killiks with a leader very strong in the Force, who are ancient enemies of the Chiss return, with some of the younger members of the Jedi interfering, and becoming part of their alien "Hive," physically and mentally joined to each other.
■Voren Na'al publishes the New Essential Chronology.

■36 ABY ■The Swarm War occurs.
■Luke Skywalker witnesses a hologram, kept by R2-D2, of his father leading the slaughter at the Jedi Temple, as well as another one in which Anakin was Force-choking his mother.
■The Conclave on Ossus convenes.
■Allana is born to Jacen Solo and Tenel Ka.

■40 ABY – Second Galactic Civil War ■Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker return from a dangerous covert mission on Adumar.
■The Galactic Alliance, in an attempt to silence malcontent among its members, begins a deterrent campaign against Corellia, leaving the galaxy on the edge of a full-scale war.
■Tensions begin to grow between members of the Skywalker-Solo clan.
■Lumiya reveals herself after a 20 year hiatus
■Jacen Solo falls to the dark side and becomes a Sith apprentice to Lumiya.
■The first civil war since the Galactic Civil War breaks out between the Galactic Alliance on one side, and the Confederation on the other.
■Boba Fett discovers the existence of a clone that fought at Geonosis and lived a further 70 years.
■Mara Jade Skywalker is killed by Jacen Solo.
■Lumiya is killed by Luke Skywalker
■Jacen Solo becomes a full Sith Lord, Darth Caedus.
■Luke Skywalker forms the Jedi Coalition, the war becomes a three-way conflict.
■Centerpoint Station is destroyed.

■41 ABY ■Admiral Daala returns to fight in the war.
■Gilad Pellaeon is killed by Tahiri Veila.
■Darth Caedus makes Tahiri Veila his Sith apprentice.
■Isolder is killed by Darth Caedus.
■Darth Caedus is killed by Jaina Solo.
■At the end of the war, Natasi Daala is named the new Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance.

■43 ABY ■Han Solo and Leia Organa Solo embark on a journey to investigate into the history of the Millennium Falcon.
■Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker is charged with dereliction of duty by Chief of State Natasi Daala. Luke is exiled from the New Jedi Order and the Galactic Alliance afterwards and Kenth Hamner becomes acting Jedi Grand Master.
■The Unification Summit is held on Coruscant in an effort to reunite the galaxy in the aftermath of Second Galactic Civil War.

■44 ABY ■Widespread slave uprisings spread throughout the galaxy, inspired by the Freedom Flight organization.
■Galactic Alliance Chief of State Natasi Daala responds to these revolts with overwhelming and brutal force, leading to Imperial withdrawal from the Unification process.
■The Jedi Order leads a coup to overthrow Daala, ending her reign and leading to her imprisonment. Luke Skywalker's exile is ended.
■The dark side entity known as Abeloth manipulates the Galactic Senate to elect Rokari Kem, whom it possesses, as Chief of State. Chief of State Kem is used as a figurehead for Abeloth and the Lost Tribe of Sith to attempt to rule the galaxy.
■At the Liberation of Coruscant the Jedi Order defeats the Lost Tribe of Sith and Abeloth. Wynn Dorvan is elected as Chief of State in the aftermath.
■The Jedi Order is commanded by the Galactic Senate to leave Coruscant. The Jedi Temple is abandoned and the Order relocates to the academy on Shedu Maad.
■Boba Fett helps Daala escape from prison, as she begins a campaign of revenge and conquest, intending to conquer the Galaxy. The Imperial Remnant, led by Jagged Fel, declares war on Daala's forces.

Take your pick.:smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Okay well Return of the Jedi was released in 1983 and was 4 years after the battle of Yavin.

So 2015 is 32 years later so thats 36 years after the Battle of Yavin maybe more...

It's worth noting that RoTJ was filmed some 6 years after ANH- but it was set only 4 years after ANH.

Add in the possibility of pushing the timeline up a bit more (after all, Mark, Carrie and Harrison have all aged rather a lot) - and you could set it just after the Fate of the Jedi series- 42 ABY or so.

[Aotrs Commander]

I am reminded that at times like this, only some elements of the EU are really worth saving.

I'd make a fair case of, despite the moribundity of a lot of it, everything up to the NJO (i.e. up to Hand of Thrawn duology). NJO and onward... seems to get stupider every time I learn something new about it...

[Hopeless]

It's worth noting that RoTJ was filmed some 6 years after ANH- but it was set only 4 years after ANH.

Add in the possibility of pushing the timeline up a bit more (after all, Mark, Carrie and Harrison have all aged rather a lot) - and you could set it just after the Fate of the Jedi series- 42 ABY or so.

So the Jedi Order has recently moved away from Coruscant and the New Republic is trying to recover from the debacle of the last decade or so trying to reestablish themselves perhaps throw in something about Jagged Fel marrying Jaina perhaps?

Could have Luke taking up Yoda's role by looking for somewhere remote and hidden to focus on his Jedi training once he believes they don't need his help and if they do they can come find him as part of their rite for padawans to become Jedi.

So assuming we have someone preparing to regain control of the Imperial Remaint who is going to be the bad guy for the new series of movies?

[hamishspence]

There's been a lot of speculation recently about Darth Plagueis- who has the advantage of having actually been mentioned onscreen.

Allana Solo is one of the people who's been speculated about as a protagonist- she's already close to the right age- she's a Jedi, and a Solo.

[Cikomyr]

the only good Star Wars movie is a Death Star Wars movie.

Death Star vs. Death Star.


Make it happen

[hamishspence]

I am reminded that at times like this, only some elements of the EU are really worth saving.

I'd make a fair case of, despite the moribundity of a lot of it, everything up to the NJO (i.e. up to Hand of Thrawn duology). NJO and onward... seems to get stupider every time I learn something new about it...

In recent times I've seen the Thrawn trilogy and the X-Wing series come in for a lot of criticism- usually on the grounds of "too minimalist" and "characters are too Stu-ish". With the occasional complaint about extreme coinicidences.

Conversely, the NJO seems to be getting more popular. Though post-NJO works are still mostly disliked as far as I can tell.

[Aotrs Commander]

In recent times I've seen the Thrawn trilogy and the X-Wing series come in for a lot of criticism- usually on the grounds of "too minimalist" and "characters are too Stu-ish". With the occasional complaint about extreme coinicidences.

Conversely, the NJO seems to be getting more popular. Though post-NJO works are still mostly disliked as far as I can tell.

Well that's the thing isn't it? People want to see people suffer as their entertainment now, which is why "gritty" stuff is near-permenantly thrust into our faces. (Even when applied to things that really shouldn't be.)

And in a lot of mediums, it has already long past the point where it was clever, way past the point of balance and right into cliched nonsense where random character death is considered to be a shortcut to good writing (*cough*Marvel and DC*cough*).

(For the right balance, see Babylon 5. Where they killed off precisiely one character for story reasons (as opposed to external factors like the actor leaving), by the by...)

It might also simply be that so many people have got fed-up with Star Wars, period, they've stopped caring at all, so the proportion of who is left are the people that really dig that sort of thing is much higher.

[Forum Explorer]

The current novels are set 40 years after a New Hope. The only things in the EU that are set beyond that are the Legacy Comics, which no one is expecting to survive the onslaught of a post RotJ movies unscathed.

None of the original actors are young enough to play a convincing lead in an action-adventure movie outside of the mentor figure. Episode VII will not be successful if they try to make it like the movie RED. No one expects a 70 year old Harrison Ford to be jumping out of the Millennium Falcon, guns ablazing. No one wants to see a 56 year old Carrie Fisher in a slave girl outfit. It just won't work. :smallfrown:

Setting Episode 7 fifty years after A New Hope really isn't that different than setting a prequel movie 32 years before A New Hope. No one was confused by the Phantom Menace even though we had no idea who most of the characters were, how their society was run, their history, their culture or anything else. It was just presented as "Here is the world, learn as you go."

It's no different than when we first started watching A New Hope. Who was that dark scary dude choking people? What is up with that desert planet? Why is there a Princess, what is she a princess of? What is the Death Star?

Those two movies showcased the essentials of what was important to the plot and the world they were presenting.

Episode VII will be no different. :smallsmile:

Do we need to mention Thrawn? No. The Ssi'ruu? No. Vong? No. How Luke re-founded the Jedi Order? No. We can literally walk into this world and just explore it as it unfolds before our eyes. :smallsmile:

There is only one thing that desperately needs to be explained - Where is Chewie? That's it. That is the only piece of Star Wars lore that needs to be explained to the general audience. Where is Chewie?

Setting Episode VII after the EU is the perfect way to satisfy everyone. 99.999% of EU is preserved and the future is completely unknown and open to any and all whims the script writers have.

Having said that, I don't see the writers availing themselves of this option. I honestly think the movies will be about the Solo children. It's one of the most compelling events to happen in the EU that allows the original actors to be present in the new movies but be sidelined by a younger cast.

The script writers will write what they want, EU be damned. Hardcore fans will try to integrate everything and fail. We could, potentially, lose everything between 9 ABY and the present. It will suck. There will be much gnashing of teeth but in the end the fans will accept the changes and resign themselves to complaining bitterly about how Star Wars was better before JJ Abrams showed up (i.e. what a very large segment of the Star Trek community is currently doing). :smallfrown:

The Prequels were plagued with problems and to my understanding contradicted a decent amount of EU anyways. We do not want to use them as a baseline

And ultimately that bolded line is right. The writers aren't going to read all of the EU to try and preserve it. They likely aren't even aware of the details of it. (I wouldn't be surprised if the writers haven't even heard of Thrawn.) So accept it now that the EU is going to get destroyed. And really there isn't that much worth preserving.

On a side note I like the new Star Trek and think those fans need to get over themselves. Now I'm going to go google exactly what they are saying so I can complain about it in detail.


Okay well Return of the Jedi was released in 1983 and was 4 years after the battle of Yavin.

So 2015 is 32 years later so thats 36 years after the Battle of Yavin maybe more... so what happened in the timeline around then?

■35 ABY ■Efforts to rebuild galactic civilization after the Yuuzhan Vong war continue, with many war-torn worlds still under reconstruction.
■The Jedi, struggling to come to terms with a new role in the galaxy and a new philosophy on the Force are called upon to act as police and diplomats by the Galactic Alliance, despite the wishes of Luke Skywalker.
■Luke Skywalker sees an image of his mother for the first time through R2-D2.
■A mysterious alien race called the Killiks with a leader very strong in the Force, who are ancient enemies of the Chiss return, with some of the younger members of the Jedi interfering, and becoming part of their alien "Hive," physically and mentally joined to each other.
■Voren Na'al publishes the New Essential Chronology.

■36 ABY ■The Swarm War occurs.
■Luke Skywalker witnesses a hologram, kept by R2-D2, of his father leading the slaughter at the Jedi Temple, as well as another one in which Anakin was Force-choking his mother.
■The Conclave on Ossus convenes.
■Allana is born to Jacen Solo and Tenel Ka.

■40 ABY – Second Galactic Civil War ■Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker return from a dangerous covert mission on Adumar.
■The Galactic Alliance, in an attempt to silence malcontent among its members, begins a deterrent campaign against Corellia, leaving the galaxy on the edge of a full-scale war.
■Tensions begin to grow between members of the Skywalker-Solo clan.
■Lumiya reveals herself after a 20 year hiatus
■Jacen Solo falls to the dark side and becomes a Sith apprentice to Lumiya.
■The first civil war since the Galactic Civil War breaks out between the Galactic Alliance on one side, and the Confederation on the other.
■Boba Fett discovers the existence of a clone that fought at Geonosis and lived a further 70 years.
■Mara Jade Skywalker is killed by Jacen Solo.
■Lumiya is killed by Luke Skywalker
■Jacen Solo becomes a full Sith Lord, Darth Caedus.
■Luke Skywalker forms the Jedi Coalition, the war becomes a three-way conflict.
■Centerpoint Station is destroyed.

■41 ABY ■Admiral Daala returns to fight in the war.
■Gilad Pellaeon is killed by Tahiri Veila.
■Darth Caedus makes Tahiri Veila his Sith apprentice.
■Isolder is killed by Darth Caedus.
■Darth Caedus is killed by Jaina Solo.
■At the end of the war, Natasi Daala is named the new Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance.

■43 ABY ■Han Solo and Leia Organa Solo embark on a journey to investigate into the history of the Millennium Falcon.
■Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker is charged with dereliction of duty by Chief of State Natasi Daala. Luke is exiled from the New Jedi Order and the Galactic Alliance afterwards and Kenth Hamner becomes acting Jedi Grand Master.
■The Unification Summit is held on Coruscant in an effort to reunite the galaxy in the aftermath of Second Galactic Civil War.

■44 ABY ■Widespread slave uprisings spread throughout the galaxy, inspired by the Freedom Flight organization.
■Galactic Alliance Chief of State Natasi Daala responds to these revolts with overwhelming and brutal force, leading to Imperial withdrawal from the Unification process.
■The Jedi Order leads a coup to overthrow Daala, ending her reign and leading to her imprisonment. Luke Skywalker's exile is ended.
■The dark side entity known as Abeloth manipulates the Galactic Senate to elect Rokari Kem, whom it possesses, as Chief of State. Chief of State Kem is used as a figurehead for Abeloth and the Lost Tribe of Sith to attempt to rule the galaxy.
■At the Liberation of Coruscant the Jedi Order defeats the Lost Tribe of Sith and Abeloth. Wynn Dorvan is elected as Chief of State in the aftermath.
■The Jedi Order is commanded by the Galactic Senate to leave Coruscant. The Jedi Temple is abandoned and the Order relocates to the academy on Shedu Maad.
■Boba Fett helps Daala escape from prison, as she begins a campaign of revenge and conquest, intending to conquer the Galaxy. The Imperial Remnant, led by Jagged Fel, declares war on Daala's forces.

Take your pick.:smalleek:

This is so much stuff. Look at all of this. Really the events that happened in the Clone Wars is so much simpler then this it isn't funny. There's what? 4 major wars, two need alien empire, some 6 governments and two new Sith lords and countless new characters. Oh and Boba Fett is running around for some reason.

In comparison nothing happens after the clone wars, the rebellion forms and the Empire is formed. There are tons of small battles and cool stories in that time but nothing as galaxy shaking as consistently seen in that list above.

[Aotrs Commander]

On a side note I like the new Star Trek and think those fans need to get over themselves. Now I'm going to go google exactly what they are saying so I can complain about it in detail.

Personally, if they did a pesudo-reboot-ish sort of thing like they have Star Trek and clearly show a point of divergeance between Old and New continuity, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

(Because at least the way Star Trek did it showed they were trying not to stomp all over the older continuity - regardless of whether you think they suceeded or not, they could have not bothered - but pick a point and say "okay, from here, it's all going to be different." They thought about it, and for me, that is the most important thing. If you won't show me your working, I won't waste my time watching/reading whatever you've done. It doesn't matter if it's wrong; it's the attempt that is important.

(Another thing those useless Jedi got wrong. "There is no try." Ha! I thought only a Sith dealt in absolutes, Yoda...

...

...

...You know, until this very moment I never realised that highly salient point. Yikes.)

[Tiki Snakes]

Personally, if they did a pesudo-reboot-ish sort of thing like they have Star Trek and clearly show a point of divergeance between Old and New continuity, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

(Because at least the way Star Trek did it showed they were trying not to stomp all over the older continuity - regardless of whether you think they suceeded or not, they could have not bothered - but pick a point and say "okay, from here, it's all going to be different." They thought about it, and for me, that is the most important thing. If you won't show me your working, I won't waste my time watching/reading whatever you've done. It doesn't matter if it's wrong; it's the attempt that is important.

(Another thing those useless Jedi got wrong. "There is no try." Ha! I thought only a Sith dealt in absolutes, Yoda...

...

...

...You know, until this very moment I never realised that highly salient point. Yikes.)

Only Sith dealing in absolutes is a particularly good example of the many reasons why it's better just to ignore the prequels, let alone the EU.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I have an idea, through I understand that it will certainly not happen. It may or may not also clash with the EU, which I know very little about.

What about a movie from the perspective of the Sith? I'm a bit suspicious of the philosophies of the Jedi, with all their suppression of basic human desires and emotions. Imagine a prequel or something that has the Jedi as antagonists, and explores the differing philosophies. There could be plenty of moral ambiguity on both sides.

[Hopeless]

Why not have it be about the founding of the Imperial Jedi and have the movie be form the Imperial standpoint except they're genuinely trying to do good and their main foe is composed of elements from the New Republic who want to restore the original Republic where they could regain the measure of control (corrupted) they once had in what they perceive as the golden age of the Republic before Palpatine messed things up?

A new order of Jedi, set with the Imperial Remaint and have a certain Solo as their mentor...

Should be interesting...:smallamused:

[Kyberwulf]

Stop letting George lucas have control of the franchise?

[The Glyphstone]

Is anyone a fan of The Truce At Bakura? It's a relatively self-contained story that seems ripe to capture a lot of the spiritual elements that made the OT good (with sufficient adaptation), and could be built into a series of films if the Ssi-Ruu take off well as a new antagonist faction - it looks like they were a one-shot wonder in the actual EU novels. And everything is better with dinosaurs.

[Felhammer]

I've never understood people's seething hatred for the EU. 22 years of shared story telling in a single continuity is pretty gosh darn amazing. Very few franchises reach Star Wars' level of popularity and have a long running continuity like that.*

Is some of the EU silly? Sure. However, a lot of it is really good. To throw your nose up in the air and condemn it all is not only short-sighted but foolish.

Remember, Gungans and Ewoks were both products of Lucas' mind, both of which are far more silly and lame than a lot of the EU.


*Technically the EU is even older since Zahn used a lot of the old WEG-era RPG campaign material as canon.

[hamishspence]

In some sense, the ANH novel is EU, since it includes scenes not in the movie.

Which means, the EU actually predates A New Hope.

[The Glyphstone]

In some sense, the ANH novel is EU, since it includes scenes not in the movie.

Which means, the EU actually predates A New Hope.

Making it one of the few things that is both EU and G-Canon (which is supposed to exclude the EU, explicitly limited to the movies and their novelizations).

[hamishspence]

G-Canon's "anything that originates with Lucas"

So- if a novelization writer makes something up- puts it in their novel- and Lucas agrees to let it stay- that's a C-Canon component of an overall G-canon source.

I think Needa's conversation with Grievous (he was commanding a Carrack-class cruiser as part of a squadron that was blocking Grievous's escape, in the RoTS novel), may be an example of something that wasn't in the scripts- but was added by Matt Stover, and Lucas liked it and allowed it to remain.

[The Glyphstone]

G-Canon's "anything that originates with Lucas"

So- if a novelization writer makes something up- puts it in their novel- and Lucas agrees to let it stay- that's a C-Canon component of an overall G-canon source.

I think Needa's conversation with Grievous (he was commanding a Carrack-class cruiser as part of a squadron that was blocking Grievous's escape, in the RoTS novel), may be an example of something that wasn't in the scripts- but was added by Matt Stover, and Lucas liked it and allowed it to remain.

My bad, you're right. So the novelizations are simultaneously G- and C-canon.

[hamishspence]

Or at least, it's hard to tell which bits are which unless you've seen early drafts of the script.

[SmartAlec]

How to make some good Star Wars movies? Hm. I do think the Prequels dropped the ball by giving us no relatable characters. Han and Leia and Lando we understood, and we got to see how these characters changed into daring Rebellion leaders. Luke became a mystic, but we saw him grow into that role and we understood how he changed. Even Obi-Wan presented himself as a mysterious old man, and didn't overstay his welcome. Eps 1-3 gives us three kinds of characters: the mad villains, the strange Jedi and the uptight politicans. And a small kid, I guess. Whatever change these characters underwent mostly happened off-screen, or wasn't prepared for. There's no-one to identify with there.

I guess what I'm saying is, the Prequels needed some Han. Regular Joes to balance out the pompous Jedi a bit.


(Another thing those useless Jedi got wrong. "There is no try." Ha! I thought only a Sith dealt in absolutes, Yoda...

...

...

...You know, until this very moment I never realised that highly salient point. Yikes.)

Every time there's a Star Wars discussion, this comes up. I think it's always taken out of context.

Here's how it goes:

Anakin: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I do what I must.

Obi-Wan is rejecting the 'my way or the highway' attitude that Anakin is espousing. If he'd only stop ranting and be reasonable, think and compromise, then Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily have to fight him. But because Anakin won't, then he's not giving Obi-Wan a choice.

That's dealing in absolutes - making absolute thinking your default attitude towards other people. Speaking in absolutes is not the same as dealing in them.

For example:

Luke: All right, I'll give it a try.
Yoda: No. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

That's not dealing in an absolute. Yoda isn't saying that either Luke lifts the X-Wing, or he's a failure. That would be dealing with Luke in an absolute way. Yoda is saying that Luke may succeed or he may fail, but unless he puts his all into it, he's setting himself up for failure.

[Aotrs Commander]

Why not have it be about the founding of the Imperial Jedi and have the movie be form the Imperial standpoint except they're genuinely trying to do good and their main foe is composed of elements from the New Republic who want to restore the original Republic where they could regain the measure of control (corrupted) they once had in what they perceive as the golden age of the Republic before Palpatine messed things up?

A new order of Jedi, set with the Imperial Remaint and have a certain Solo as their mentor...

Should be interesting...:smallamused:

Why would you want to show the Empire sympathetically? Like, the ENTIRE POINT of being an Empire loyalist, is that you are Evil and you get to oppress aliens and rebel scum and abuse the Dark Side by force-choking everyone left right and centre! It's why TIE Fighter worked so utterly perfectly! (And why that rebel propaganda about same was so offensive.) So, heck, no! Emphatically heck, no!

Keep the damn Jedi well away from the glorious Empire (unless it's at the business end of our TIE Defenders and Missile Boats), thanks, and we'll keep our Dark-Side-favoured Evil heroes! (And I don't mean Sith, either, those guys are way too grey to be cool now, for that matter.)

It's freakin' bad enough that Evil Can't Have Nice Things in Star Wars at the best of times, because the rebels are forever nicking all the good stuff - what little they don't blow up, anyway - let's not compound the issue.

(The Empire can't have a decent, loyal pilot, can they? Someone as motivated as the rebels, but from the other side, who belives as ferverently and unshakably in the Empire and it's beliefs (ALL it's beliefs) as the rebels do in theirs? They're not allowed to have their Wedge Antilles, because if he's a good pilot he has to defect to the rebels, doesn't he? Cobblers!)

The Empire was about the last bastion of proper bad guys. They were freakin' superb at it. That was their beauty. That's why they are so much freaking fantastic fun! (See also Xykon, Tarkin)

That's why I can even enjoy the prequels, because it's about the glorious rise of the Empire and Our Hero Palpatine kicking sand in the faces of all the stupid Jedi for good, old-fashioned, power-hungry galactic domination, without any of this nowadays waaay overused old Magneto-style "well-intentioned extremist" guff!

(The vong, the new "gritty" enemy, were just abyssmal bad guys.)

Showing the Empire nonEvil is the genera-inversion equivilent of writing a My Little Pony fanfiction where one of them is a serial killer (or Cupcakes to them as in the know). Sure you can do it, sure, lots of people might even read/view it, but at the end of the day, you've not only missed half or more of the whole point but the half of the readers/viewers are going to go away feeling metaphorically (or very actually in aforementioned example) queasy...



No, if you do an Empire-centric story, you need to go all out, with the same level of verve, ruthlessness and cold, crisp, condescending arrogance as TIE Fighter and every Imperial campaign in all the SW games did. All out, Dungeon Keeper style, revelling in it, like TIE did - maybe even throw in some Evil Laughter (in the form of a cold chuckle, manical isn't quite Imperial style) and Evil so hard it makes the Spaceballs renounce their title, as the song goes, of the "mothers of the galaxy..." That's how you do it properly.

[snoopy13a]

*Technically the EU is even older since Zahn used a lot of the old WEG-era RPG campaign material as canon.

Actually, the EU also includes Splinter of the Mind's Eye, novels about Han and Lando, years of Marvel and Star* comic books, two made-for-TV Ewok movies, the holiday special, and the Droids/Ewoks cartoons.

The pre-Zahn EU faded (except for maybe the RPG stuff) during the late 80s.

*Star was a short-lived Marvel imprint geared towards young children. They printed the Droids and Ewoks comic books.

[hamishspence]

Star Wars Poster Monthly also provided a few snippets of interesting background- like the fact that the reason Vader wears the suit is due to a volcano duel (though at the time, it wrote that he killed Anakin before being knocked into a pit by Obi-Wan).

It also was the first source to say that stormtroopers are clones.

[Wardog]

Hire a good director. One who understands pacing, cinamatography, etc.

The Star Wars films have been showing recently on UK TV, in numerical order, and one of the most obvious differences between the new and original films (and to a lesser extent, the original and SPecial Edition parts of the original films) is the pacing.

The prequals alternate between mad, frantic sequences with a million and one things happening (most of which are irrelevant to the plot), and long, drawn-out scenes where nothing important happens. (They also often cut between events happening in different places so frequently that you can't really engage with any of them).

The originals have frantic scenes and calsm scenes, but they are not so extreme. The battles are frantic, but everything happening (shots, explosions, people falling down, etc) happens for a reason and contributes to the story. They don't have needless stuff happening in the background for the sole reason that CGI makes it possible.

The calm scenes are short, and contribute to the mood of the story. Luke pauses and looks sadly out into the Tatooine sunset, deep in thought. Wistful music plays. The whole scene only lasts a few moments, but it is enough for the audience to know Luke deeply wants to leave Tatooine and seek his fortune in the wider galaxy. The arrival of the droids has emphasised just how much more there is he could be doing, and at the same time, how little hope he seemingly has of actually going anywhere . And they we cut to the next scene. The purpose is served, but it isn't forced. It doesn't waste time and make the audience bored. Luke doesn't whine about how he doesn't like sand. There's no stilted dialogue about how following his thoughts will take him to a place he cannot go. And no-one farts, trips over, or electricutes themselves to ruin the mood break the tension.

[Hawriel]

Stop letting George lucas have control of the franchise?

Step one has been done already. Disney owns Lucas Films, IE Star Wars. That is why there is going to be a new series of movies.

[Hawriel]

That's not dealing in an absolute. Yoda isn't saying that either Luke lifts the X-Wing, or he's a failure. That would be dealing with Luke in an absolute way. Yoda is saying that Luke may succeed or he may fail, but unless he puts his all into it, he's setting himself up for failure.

This is some thing I understood when I a six and seven year old watching these movies.

[Carry2]

That's not dealing in an absolute. Yoda isn't saying that either Luke lifts the X-Wing, or he's a failure. That would be dealing with Luke in an absolute way. Yoda is saying that Luke may succeed or he may fail, but unless he puts his all into it, he's setting himself up for failure.
That might be the effect Yoda is trying to produce, but it's not what he's actually saying. What he's literally saying is dealing in absolutes.

It's rather like the incoherent treatment of "Good is a point of view" when Palpatine says it, vs. when Obi-Wan says "only a Sith deals in absolutes", vs. "sure Luke, Vader killed your dad... from a certain point of view."

I mean, sure, you can make valid arguments for both these philosophical approaches, but there's no particular consistency in who makes them and why.


Why would you want to show the Empire sympathetically? Like, the ENTIRE POINT of being an Empire loyalist, is that you are Evil and you get to oppress aliens and rebel scum and abuse the Dark Side by force-choking everyone left right and centre!
Isn't that going to make for something of a one-dimensional cast, though? I mean, part of what made The Empire Strikes Back the most interesting installment of the series was that you had the plucky do-gooder heroes (and their venerable mentors) stuck with a number of morally ambivalent no-win situations. That's a large part of what let you know what their personalities were in the first place, because there's more than one motive tugging at their heartstrings.

Sure, a significant chunk of Imperials are going to be bureaucratically-empowered sadists, but I could also see the occasional, Han-Solo-evil-opposite, genuinely motivated by law-and-order Javert-a-like in the mix. (Like whatsisface that got force-choked after taking responsibility for losing the falcon? I forget the name.)

[hamishspence]

Sure, a significant chunk of Imperials are going to be bureaucratically-empowered sadists, but I could also see the occasional, Han-Solo-evil-opposite, genuinely motivated by law-and-order Javert-a-like in the mix. (Like whatsisface that got force-choked after taking responsibility for losing the falcon? I forget the name.)

That would be Captain Lorth Needa, commanding the Imperial Star Destroyer Avenger.

I also thought it was an interesting hint that the average Imperial isn't as monstrous as Vader or Tarkin.

The Revenge of the Sith novelization also gives us a short scene of him, at the Battle of Coruscant.

[SmartAlec]

That might be the effect Yoda is trying to produce, but it's not what he's actually saying. What he's literally saying is dealing in absolutes.

It's rather like the incoherent treatment of "Good is a point of view" when Palpatine says it, vs. when Obi-Wan says "only a Sith deals in absolutes", vs. "sure Luke, Vader killed your dad... from a certain point of view."

I mean, sure, you can make valid arguments for both these philosophical approaches, but there's no particular consistency in who makes them and why.


Nonono, nono.

First up, speaking in absolutes is not what's being discussed. Absolute facts exist. The vacuum of space is empty. Human beings need air. Yoda is green. And so on. 'Do or do not' is a very simple statement - either you attempt something or you don't, either you succeed or you fail. That's self-evident, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise.

The thing here is dealing in absolutes.


deal·ing (dlng)
n.
1. dealings Transactions or relations with others, usually in business.
2. Method or manner of conduct in relation to others; treatment: honest dealing.

That is, making absolutes the foundation of your dealings with others. With others, that's the key point here. Yoda is applying absolutism to a task. Only a Sith is capable of that psychotic, zero-empathy, all-will-join-me-or-die way of thinking and applying it to other people without exception.

There's a world of difference between Yoda telling Luke he'll either succeed or fail, and Anakin telling Padme that he wants her to be with him - and then throttling the life out of her when it seems she's betrayed him. That's the Sith approach - everything is binary. Either you are good for me, or you will be destroyed.

And even then, it's 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes,' not 'A Sith always deals in absolutes.' Palpatine is quite capable of using a seemingly reasonable approach when it suits his purposes - and ironically enough, he's mimicing the Jedi mindset when he says that 'good is a point of view' to Anakin. He wants to seem reasonable, because he's trying to get Anakin to agree with him. But even then, at the back of his mind, his goals are the same absolute approach. 'This guy will be my new apprentice. Or if not, I'll kill him along with the rest.'


That would be Captain Lorth Needa, commanding the Imperial Star Destroyer Avenger.

I also thought it was an interesting hint that the average Imperial isn't as monstrous as Vader or Tarkin.

That's one thing I liked about The Empire Strikes Back. All the background characters giving a little extra to what's going on, and doing a good job of it. The Imperial officers, the Rebel leaders and pilots, even the bounty hunters who aren't Boba Fett.

There's a very clear difference between bit-part characters giving a good couple of lines, and having CGI distractions in the background.

[jedipilot24]

Here's how to make a Star Wars Sequel:

Don't.

[Darth Credence]

Wow, I can't believe I've missed this thread up until now.

As for how to make a good Star Wars sequel, that you must have a good director, good writers, and good actors seems clear so I'll take that as a given. You can get away with some corny dialogue, as we saw in the original Star Wars, but for the most part those things need to be done well. George demonstrated what happens when you assume it will succeed because it is Star Wars with the prequels.

I love the EU, but I would throw it all out. The EU has always been an alternate history within the SW universe, so it doesn't bother me. They are just myths about the heroes of the time, but not necessarily what actually happened.

So, from a story standpoint, I would go thirty or so years after RotJ. Luke has re-established an academy, and started to rebuild the Order. He would have the largest role of any from the original trilogy, but probably smaller than Obi Wan from the original Star Wars. Leia may be retired, or hold high government office, and be married to Han. The extent of their roles would be to visit the academy, either to visit Luke or their children.

Who would the bad guy be? There are lots of choices that would work. A member of the order who was relatively weak (or strong but lazy), who takes short cuts to the dark side to gain more power, ultimately becoming very corrupted. An outside power that has come to negotiate with the New Republic, but is just trying to worm their way in before unleashing an assault. An Imperial Remnant (or any other group of planets from the old Republic) that has either discovered vast resources or made a technological breakthrough that gives them a viable shot at instilling their views on the rest of the galaxy.

Ultimately, get the correct cast and director, and a good writer can make a whole lot of different scenarios work.

[Tyrant]

I love the EU, but I would throw it all out. The EU has always been an alternate history within the SW universe, so it doesn't bother me. They are just myths about the heroes of the time, but not necessarily what actually happened.

So, from a story standpoint, I would go thirty or so years after RotJ. Luke has re-established an academy, and started to rebuild the Order. He would have the largest role of any from the original trilogy, but probably smaller than Obi Wan from the original Star Wars. Leia may be retired, or hold high government office, and be married to Han. The extent of their roles would be to visit the academy, either to visit Luke or their children.

Who would the bad guy be? There are lots of choices that would work. A member of the order who was relatively weak (or strong but lazy), who takes short cuts to the dark side to gain more power, ultimately becoming very corrupted. An outside power that has come to negotiate with the New Republic, but is just trying to worm their way in before unleashing an assault. An Imperial Remnant (or any other group of planets from the old Republic) that has either discovered vast resources or made a technological breakthrough that gives them a viable shot at instilling their views on the rest of the galaxy.


So, throw out the whole EU, but not really?

[Wardog]

So, throw out the whole EU, but not really?

I presume he meant "ignore/reject the continuity/canonicity/details of the EU, and recreate some of its ideas from scratch".

[Darth Credence]

So, throw out the whole EU, but not really?


I presume he meant "ignore/reject the continuity/canonicity/details of the EU, and recreate some of its ideas from scratch".

Wardog is correct about what I meant. There are some great ideas in the EU, and it is hard to believe the Star Wars universe continuing after RotJ without Luke eventually founding a new Jedi order - or at the very least training those he comes across who can use the force. Just don't use Kyp Durron and Exar Kun as the bad guys. Or don't use Thrawn if you have the Empire resurgent, or the Ssi-ruuk or Vong as an outside threat.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think the brave way to continue, assuming you're chucking out the EU anyway would be to cash the check they promised in the original trilogy.

No more Dark Side of the force. Game over. Pan back from the focus on the force and find conflict elsewhere, with the occasional Jedi supporting character tied in with Luke's new Jedi traditions. The trilogy would examine the themes of building up a new way of things, a better way. It would be about the protagonists defending the promising new shoots from forces that would seek to strangle or pervert it (via 1940's esque pulpy action adventure and light intruige.)

It should end with a promising new utopia just tantalisingly in reach, despite setbacks they have suffered on the way.

[hamishspence]

I think the brave way to continue, assuming you're chucking out the EU anyway would be to cash the check they promised in the original trilogy.

No more Dark Side of the force. Game over.

Given that "anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they" I can't see them simply no longer existing in the SW universe.

[AstralFire]

The problem is not that the Dark Side of the Force exists at all, but that it had grown increasingly powerful - a cancer upon the galaxy. That check being cashed means "no more Sith Lords" not "no more war", which is why I like the NJO. It's funny, but when you get down to it, the points on which the EU gets attacked most aren't its actual moments of badness (we try very hard to forget the resurrection of Palpatine, and by the way, that was Lucas' idea) but the fact that it tried to forge ahead with making a universe that made sense and didn't live and die by the Jedi.

[Tiki Snakes]

Given that "anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they" I can't see them simply no longer existing in the SW universe.

Oh sure, but with balance brought, they are just bad emotions, not a semi sentient force pushing people to ickybadtime behaviour.

But yes, in general Astralfire's got it. No more Sith Lords, no more Jedi's tragically falling and having to be put down/ruining the galaxy, etc. It's done. Balance got brought yo.

[turkishproverb]

With more Star Wars films coming out in the foreseeable future, I think it would be interesting to discuss how they could be good, and how they could suck. What would a Star Wars sequel trilogy need to do in order to feel worthy of (or even better than) the original trilogy? What mindset would one need to approach them with? How would they need to be produced?

Take Timothy Zahn book. Make movie. Rinse. Repeat.



1. Call Timothy Zahn
2. Arrange so you make movies based on his Thrawn trilogy
3. ???
4. Profit

What he said.


Mark Hamil is 61, Harrison Ford is 70, Carrie Fisher is 56 and Billy Dee Williams is 76. Any chance of there being a Thrawn movie with the original cast has sailed, long, long ago. :smallfrown:

Original cast? Why?

Besides that, heck, we've had years to improve upon TRON LEGACY/2.0/Tr2n/whatever.

[hamishspence]

Whether or not the EU remains viable- they've said that it will be an original story.

So- even if they don't make the Zahn books impossible (by, for example, depicting the Empire as having surrendered completely shortly after RoTJ) we're not going to see them onscreen any time soon.

[turkishproverb]

What are these Thrawn books? Should I give them a look?

Yesterday.


Whether or not the EU remains viable- they've said that it will be an original story.

So- even if they don't make the Zahn books impossible (by, for example, depicting the Empire as having surrendered completely shortly after RoTJ) we're not going to see them onscreen any time soon.

Not the point of my post.

[Darth Credence]

I think the brave way to continue, assuming you're chucking out the EU anyway would be to cash the check they promised in the original trilogy.

No more Dark Side of the force.

I don't agree that this was ever promised in the OT. The Emperor was brought down, and the promise was that democracy would be restored. But, to me, it never said that there would be no more evil, or no more Dark Jedi.

Saying no more Sith Lords is semantics - Sith Lords are only more than just "bad guy force users" to fans that delve deeper into the universe than the vast majority who will just watch the movies. Those fans are going to watch the new movies regardless.

The new trilogy, Episodes VII, VII, and IX, basically has to have a bad guy who uses the force. The spin off movies can make room for the same universe without relying on the force - bounty hunters or smugglers or whatever else they want to go with - but the main saga has to involve the force. Otherwise, how is it Star Wars and not just Firefly with a bigger budget (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

FTR, I also like the NJO. (But, I like almost everything in the EU - about the only things I can say I truly don't like were The Crystal Star and everything involving Callista.) And I could see going with an exploration of whether the dark side exists, as such. Was there an aspect of the force making people like Anakin bad, or were they just force users who made bad decisions due to selfishness or a lust for power? When I mentioned someone using the dark side and becoming corrupt, that could as easily be corruption in the sense that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You take someone and show them that you can get better results by feeding the force with hatred and anger, and you get someone who builds their life around being angry and hating everyone, because it makes them more powerful. That doesn't need to be a "semi sentient" force pushing someone to do something. And it doesn't have to contradict Yoda's statement that those feelings are the dark side. If you fuel your power with emotions that are antithetical to working together as a society, then you are using the dark side of that power.

[hamishspence]

FTR, I also like the NJO. (But, I like almost everything in the EU - about the only things I can say I truly don't like were The Crystal Star and everything involving Callista.)

Seconded. And I've found things to enjoy even in those.

[AstralFire]

The new trilogy, Episodes VII, VII, and IX, basically has to have a bad guy who uses the force. The spin off movies can make room for the same universe without relying on the force - bounty hunters or smugglers or whatever else they want to go with - but the main saga has to involve the force. Otherwise, how is it Star Wars and not just Firefly with a bigger budget (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

I don't think so.

For a start, the first spinoff movie is very Jedi-focused. Beyond that, the idea that the universe revolves around the Force War is pretty much a Prequel Trilogy phenomenon - as much as people deride midichlorians, PT was straight-up more mystical than the OT was, and I suspect that they're going to be shooting more for the OT in terms of feeling. It's obvious in the overwhelming majority of EU material which predates The Phantom Menace - the consistent themes were more "Evil Empire" and "Seedy Underworld", and force users were an occasional (but significant) menace.

The mystical hero good guy doesn't need to fight a mystical bad guy to have a place.

[Darth Credence]

I don't think so.

For a start, the first spinoff movie is very Jedi-focused. Beyond that, the idea that the universe revolves around the Force War is pretty much a Prequel Trilogy phenomenon - as much as people deride midichlorians, PT was straight-up more mystical than the OT was, and I suspect that they're going to be shooting more for the OT in terms of feeling. It's obvious in the overwhelming majority of EU material which predates The Phantom Menace - the consistent themes were more "Evil Empire" and "Seedy Underworld", and force users were an occasional (but significant) menace.

The mystical hero good guy doesn't need to fight a mystical bad guy to have a place.

Do we know what the spin offs will be? The rumor I keep hearing is it will be young Han, so I can't imagine that will be Jedi focused.

And the OT was completely about the force. The Rebellion would have ended in the first movie without the hero using the force to destroy the Death Star. Vader drove the entire second movie, due to the force. Without his use of the force, the Imperials would not have made it to Hoth before the Rebels evacuated - he knew it was the base because of the force. Han never would have been rescued if Luke hadn't been trained. Without the force, the Ewoks would have never been on the Rebels side. The dark side and force visions drove everything the Emperor did - if you go with the EU, if Vader hadn't killed the Emperor, the fleet could have never blown up the Death Star because the Emperor was basically controlling everyone. If you leave that out, then either the force abandoned the Emperor at the end, leading to his bad choices and downfall, or the light side in Luke overcame the dark side in the Emperor, allowing the Rebels to win.

Yeah, in the Star Wars universe, the mystical hero is going to need a mystical bad guy. A Star Wars movie without a light saber battle is no Star Wars movie, and a light saber battle between a Jedi and a non-Jedi is just not worth it. Obi Wan vs Grievous was cool looking, but ultimately unsatisfying. Grievous just spun them quickly, then lost his limbs and was taken down.

[warty goblin]

And the OT was completely about the force.
You can go further than that. The OT was about two generations of a single force using family.

[AstralFire]

Do we know what the spin offs will be? The rumor I keep hearing is it will be young Han, so I can't imagine that will be Jedi focused.

The first spin-off movie was leaked a ways ago as being a Jedi-focused Samurai-inspired thing. (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-seven-samurai-inspired-star-wars-spin-off-coming-from-zack-snyder/) It's not confirmed, but it's generally accepted.


And the OT was completely about the force...

The Original Trilogy made the Force important, alright, but we only had a grand total of three Jedi and two Sith over three movies - three of those characters only appear in one film apiece, two of them without lightsabers, and The Empire Strikes Back was the only film with a conclusive lightsaber duel climax. Obi-Wan lost a very brief and slow fight, and Luke forfeit the fight at the end.

The Grievous Fight was weak, but that had nothing to do with the fact that Grievous was a cyborg and everything to do with the fact that the fight was almost played for comedy and we had little investment in Grievous unless you were heavy into the EU.

The same series that introduced him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4) also had a lot of climactic action porn moments that didn't involve lightsabers or Sith, I'll add, while still feeling very Star Warsy.

[Darth Credence]

The first spin-off movie was leaked a ways ago as being a Jedi-focused Samurai-inspired thing. (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-seven-samurai-inspired-star-wars-spin-off-coming-from-zack-snyder/) It's not confirmed, but it's generally accepted. Han rumors and Bounty Hunter rumors are more recent than that. The official site says each will focus on a specific character, which leans closer to Han or Boba Fett than Seven Samurai style.




The Original Trilogy made the Force important, alright, but we only had a grand total of three Jedi and two Sith over three movies - three of those characters only appear in one film apiece, two of them without lightsabers, and The Empire Strikes Back was the only film with a conclusive lightsaber duel climax. Obi-Wan lost a very brief and slow fight, and Luke forfeit the fight at the end.

The Grievous Fight was weak, but that had nothing to do with the fact that Grievous was a cyborg and everything to do with the fact that the fight was almost played for comedy and we had little investment in Grievous unless you were heavy into the EU.

The same series that introduced him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4) also had a lot of climactic action porn moments that didn't involve lightsabers or Sith, I'll add, while still feeling very Star Warsy.

The Jedi fight was conclusive. Luke clearly won, he just didn't finish Vader. Every Star Wars movie has had light saber fights. The new episodes will too.

And I know the Clone Wars cartoons. You may have noticed there were also a lot of light saber battles in that, too. That there are parts without them means little, as the original movies weren't one giant saber battle, either.

[Ravens_cry]

Personally, I hope they move away from the Skywalker's and the Solo's. The Star Wars galaxy is plenty big enough that we can have a compelling Star Wars story without 'em.

[Carry2]

There's a world of difference between Yoda telling Luke he'll either succeed or fail, and Anakin telling Padme that he wants her to be with him - and then throttling the life out of her when it seems she's betrayed him. That's the Sith approach - everything is binary. Either you are good for me, or you will be destroyed...
Conceivably, but this point is not made particularly clearly in the movies. I mean, sure, yeah- you can argue that the Sith have an "either part of the solution or part of the problem" attitude, but I think the running commentary in the series is obliquely referring to other ideas, such as, e.g, moral relativism vs. standards of honour. For example, the Jedi are supposed to live by a code the guarantees the lives of prisoners, because they consider this an absolutely right thing to do- and the blurring of this moral boundary is, supposedly, a significant contributor to Anakin's downfall.

Sith, on the other hand, have a much more flexible take on the specific means you can take to desired ends, and it's unclear why this would translate into black-or-white thinking in interpersonal relations. (If you don't make value judgements about the tools available to you, and consider people just another kind of tool, then they'll certainly be dispensable, but you won't automatically care about how faithful they are. Just how predictable.)

Given that the Jedi are supposed to be charged with enforcing law and order in the wider galaxy, I don't see how they're going to be more tolerant of ambiguous allegiances. I mean, this is a group who systematically seeks out and 'tutors' all force-sensitives they can find, while preaching submission to the judgement of elders and detachment from outside relationships. (Which doesn't make them bad, but also doesn't make 'em any more tolerant of the grey areas in life.)

Finally, even if the Sith have a markedly different attitude to handling interpersonal relations, you can't just point at these isolated remarks and say "Well obviously this is what they really meant", because it isn't obvious that's the kind of 'absolute' in question. It's perfectly fair to present both sides of a topic and avoid being anvilicious (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious), but then you can't claim the story is unambiguously making a particular point, and it isn't our job to try and pretend it does so.
.

[AstralFire]

For the record, Matthew Stoddard's novelization of Revenge of the Sith (which is so good that it should be canon and is better than the other five movies put together - it's clear RotS had a lot of good ideas and bungled execution) changes the line slightly to, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes of allegiance." And no, I wouldn't really call the Jedi absolutists in allegiance. They do have a wider problem that they deal too heavily in absolutes (such as forbidding marriage) but this point isn't really dealt with well in the movies themselves. They actually are pretty flexible about the kid thing, for example - yeah, they seek these kids out, but they spend no effort whatsoever to actually coerce the parents. They just watch force-sensitives who aren't brought to them (which I think is a perfectly fair thing to do.)

[Carry2]

For the record, Matthew Stoddard's novelization of Revenge of the Sith (which is so good that it should be canon and is better than the other five movies put together - it's clear RotS had a lot of good ideas and bungled execution) changes the line slightly to, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes of allegiance."
I think the prequels in general had a lot of good ideas and bungled execution- political intrigue and moral ambivalence and the horrors of war and comformity vs. individuality, etc. etc. etc. I normally eat that stuff up, much more so than then stark black-and-white morality and swashbuckling antics of the OT.

But like I said, I'm pretty lukewarm about Star Wars in general. And yeah, bad execution.

...I wouldn't really call the Jedi absolutists in allegiance. They do have a wider problem that they deal too heavily in absolutes (such as forbidding marriage) but this point isn't really dealt with well in the movies themselves. They actually are pretty flexible about the kid thing, for example - yeah, they seek these kids out, but they spend no effort whatsoever to actually coerce the parents. They just watch force-sensitives who aren't brought to them (which I think is a perfectly fair thing to do.)
Fair enough. I'm just working off the material in the movies (and occasional wiki entries,) so it's very possible I'm not getting the full picture there.

[AstralFire]

I really recommend Matthew Stoddard's work. Timothy Zahn's usually the first name trumpeted around, as well, of course. You might also like the New Jedi Order, which delves into those things a lot - my biggest issue with the NJO is not the stories themselves, but the novels were each designed to individually hit the NYT Bestsellers list. (For the record, most did.) This meant that towards the end of the NJO, it seemed like no character could be introduced into a scene without a comprehensive recap of how everything fit together.

And the problem with the perception of the Old Jedi Order as babystealers is so bad that it extends well into the casual fanbase, as I experienced when I played the Old Republic. So you're not alone.

[hamishspence]

Matthew Stover's novelization is very good, yes. However, the line was the same- but with "the truth is rarelynever black and white" added

Obi-Wan knelt beside Padme's unconscious body, where she lay limp and broken in the smoky dusk. He felt for a pulse. It was thin, and erratic. "Anakin—Anakin, what have you done?"
In the Force, Anakin burned like a fusion torch. "You turned her against me."
Obi-Wan looked at the best friend he had ever had. "You did that yourself," he said sadly.
"I'll give you a chance, Obi-Wan. For old times' sake. Walk away."
"If only I could."
"Go some place out of the way. Retire. Meditate. That's what you like, isn't it? You don't have to fight for peace anymore. Peace is here. My Empire is peace."
"Your Empire? It will never have peace. It was founded on treachery and innocent blood."
"Don't make me kill you, Obi-Wan. If you are not with me, you are against me."
"Only Sith deal in absolutes, Anakin. The truth is never black and white." He rose, spreading empty hands. "Let me take Padme to a medcenter. She's hurt, Anakin. She needs medical attention."
"She stays."
"Anakin—"
"You don't get to take her anywhere. You don't get to touch her. She's mine, do you understand? It's your fault, all of it—you made her betray me!"
"Anakin—"
Anakin's hand sprouted a bar of blue plasma.
Obi-Wan sighed.
He brought out his own lightsaber and angled it before him. "Then I will do what I must."
"You'll try," Anakin said, and leapt.
Obi-Wan met him in the air.
Blue blades crossed, and the volcano above echoed their lightning with a shout of fire.

[AstralFire]

Apologies. I haven't read it in a long time.

[hamishspence]

No probs- that particular book is a favourite of mine and I enjoy quoting it in Star Wars forums in general.

[AstralFire]

My favorite Star Wars book of all time is Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadow of Mindor for doing the impossible - it made the PT and OT EUs merge together almost seamlessly, and simultaneously delivered a Jedi mystic A story with Luke and a rollicking pulp B story with Han & co., showing Luke's precise transition from being a Republic Army Officer to being a Jedi Master.