Acid from herbs/plants

[Yogibear41]

Is there anyway to make acid out of herbal products? Doing an RP thing as a herbalist, and my DM is letting make certain alchemical items that have a herbal feel using Proffession: herbalism, trying to find a way I can justify stonebreaker acid from Arms and Equipment guide.

[ericgrau]

I forget the precise details but I remember sulphur, lead and nitrates being involved. So we're talking minerals and excrement.

Natural things simply aren't that acidic, or they wouldn't be alive. Even, say, a lemon, is around 10^4 or 10,000 times less acidic than sulfuric acid. Give or take. Citric acid (citrus acid) may not be concentrated into a strong acid either. Stomach acid can be concentrated enough, but it's from an animal and that's needlessly complicated compared to using minerals. Some kind of rare acid spitting plant monster is possible in the D&D world though.

Poisons and irritants are reasonable. Antitoxin should be too. Glues and rubbers are reasonable so tanglefoot bags aren't a huge stretch. Fire and pyrotechnics require nitrates and sulfur and/or charcoal dust and/or another fuel. Charcoal may be made from wood, but that still leaves excrement and minerals.

[Humble Master]

Well some animals/plant produce oil so I guess that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that you could refine plant and animal oil into a more combustible variant for Alchemal Fire.

As for acid you might be able to RP it as extracting refined chemicals from certain rare herbs that have high concentrations of those chemicals. You then mix the chemicals and produce acid.

[ericgrau]

The fuel part is easy to get from plants. Oil or charcoal dust is fine. The oxidizer is the hard part. Normally that means nitrates from excrement. Without an oxidizer you can make a basic fuel for lanterns and the BBQ, but you can't make an explosive (or bright light, or unstable substance that bursts into flame on contact). Oxidizers are toxic to all life so they would be hard to find in large quantity or to even find life that is resistant to them. Plus even if you could get a big quantity of plant mash and break it down properly, using poop or urine or the right mined rocks is just plain easier.

Stick to poisons, medicines, glues and other rubbery substances IMO.

[Flickerdart]

As an alchemical item, Stonebreaker Acid can't be produced through regular chemical processes, period. You'll need Craft: Alchemy.

[Humble Master]

The fuel part is easy to get from plants. Oil or charcoal dust is fine. The oxidizer is the hard part. Normally that means nitrates from excrement. Without an oxidizer you can make a basic fuel for lanterns and the BBQ, but you can't make an explosive (or bright light, or unstable substance that birsts into flame on contact). Oxidizers are toxic to all life so they would be hard to find in large quantity or to even find life that is resistant to them. Plus using poop and rocks is just plain easier. All true. Well, a lot of fertilizers have nitrates in them so maybe there is a plant that takes these nitrates and condenses them into a toxin. The herbalist could take this toxin and refine the nitrates from them.

[ericgrau]

They do but they quickly recombine them back into protein so the amount in the plant is very low. Nitrates are toxic in larger amounts to both plants and animals. They're way too chemically active. You could ferment a heavy protein source, but excrement is cheaper and easier and you're quickly getting into (al)chemistry more than herbalism.

[Humble Master]

Just throwing ideas out there:

Maybe a special kind of fungus or mold that acts like a nitrifying bacteria?

Plant that has a symbiotic relationship with a dung beetle like creature. The plant provides food for the beetle and the beetle provides dung as a source of nitrate. If the plant is directly linked to the dung in such a way it seems a little more likely that herbalists would use dung for nitrates.

[ericgrau]

A fungus can just break down the dung. Then you rinse it and get your nitrates. Then you concentrate it and do all sorts of other things which are exactly what alchemists do with nothing different. I can see the strong connection between herbalists and chemists in general, but this is pretty much the herbalist replacing the alchemist entirely. A 2 for 1 in professions.

The line crossing I think, is when you stop making essences, extracts and blends and start making things which are 100% one chemical substance... and often easier to make without any plants.

[Humble Master]

Well it's not like professions being good for much aside from weaving baskets to kill stuff. I guess I would personally rule that yes you could use Profession(Herbalist) to make most Alchemical items.

[Jeff the Green]

Well it's not like professions being good for much aside from weaving baskets to kill stuff. I guess I would personally rule that yes you could use Profession(Herbalist) to make most Alchemical items.

Let's go through the list in the PHB:

Acid. Already covered. Strong acids are rare in nature, and when they do occur (e.g. stomach acid) they're dilute enough that getting it on you won't cause damage.
Alchemist's fire. You are not getting something from plants that is hypergolic with air without serious chemical modification.
Antitoxin. No way there's a natural catholicon. Poisons work in so many different ways that a single substance can't counteract them.
Smokestick. Plausible.
Sunrod. The closest you'll get is bioluminescence, but that really doesn't get that bright in real life. Somewhat plausible, though I'm not sure there's a bioluminescent plant.
Tanglefoot bag. Very sticky stuff. I suppose you might be able to do this.
Thunderstone. This is an explosive, the only ingredient of which you could plausibly get from plants is charcoal.
Tindertwig. This is somewhat more reasonable, as you just need something that will ignite at very low temperatures but produce enough heat to ignite wax or similar. I still can't think of anything that wouldn't require distillation and reaction with other chemicals.


So by my count, two plausible, two questionable, and four absolutely not. Profession (herbalist) is definitely not a replacement for Craft (alchemy). Craft (poison), sure, for botanical poisons.

[Humble Master]

Well in a fantasy setting isn't it perfectly plausible for there to be magical plants that have bizarre properties which could be used in the creation of these substances/items?

[Jeff the Green]

Well in a fantasy setting isn't it perfectly plausible for there to be magical plants that have bizarre properties which could be used in the creation of these substances/items?

To some extent. The acid maybe, the antitoxin sure. The thunderstone is still explosive and highly unstable, which means that if the plant gets stepped on (an everday occurrence for most plants) it explodes. And the alchemist's fire is still hypergolic with air, which means there is no situation that does not involve the first plant to produce it to die in a small inferno that results in its extinction.

Edit: Also, alchemical items are nonmagical.

[Yogibear41]

For the most Part, im going to be making healing items such as the healing salve from tome and blood, and the bloodflower salve from Serpent kingdoms.

Dm has alreayd ruled okay on things like these, I was just trying to find a way to make the acid work because it seems like a Pretty amazing utility item to have, and as I am currently rolling with a RP modified vow of poverty (im lawful neutral) going for a strictly "off the land" type of existance, just buying the acid is probably going to be a no-no.

Also have a alchemy/herb splat book that me and the DM are going to use to try to come up with some homebrew herbalist items, if anyone has anything that would be beneficial then feel free to toss out some ideas for that too.

[Phelix-Mu]

For the most Part, im going to be making healing items such as the healing salve from tome and blood, and the bloodflower salve from Serpent kingdoms.

Dm has alreayd ruled okay on things like these, I was just trying to find a way to make the acid work because it seems like a Pretty amazing utility item to have, and as I am currently rolling with a RP modified vow of poverty (im lawful neutral) going for a strictly "off the land" type of existance, just buying the acid is probably going to be a no-no.

Also have a alchemy/herb splat book that me and the DM are going to use to try to come up with some homebrew herbalist items, if anyone has anything that would be beneficial then feel free to toss out some ideas for that too.

Knowledge of specific plants and beasties via Knowledge skills is key here. There might be rare/exotic/monstrous plants or whatever in the setting, but it's OOC knowledge, and furthermore, their existence is up to the DM. Having a roll that shows that you know of stuff like that may help the DM give you some pointers on what is plausible.

Monsters and plant creatures often have body parts/tissues/excretions that do all kinds of things. If you could use Profession(herbalism) or some kind of taxidermy/preservation shtick, then refining those items is probably possible without any alchemy. I wouldn't limit distillation and fermentation and other stuff of that sort strictly to alchemy, since they already exist outside of alchemy in the form of cooking and brewing of alcoholic beverages.

So, roll some Knowledge and figure out that the bombadier variety of giant beetles have a combustible chemical they release, or that acid from a xyz plant is strong enough to eat through tissue. Or that green slime will eat through just about anything (keep patches in stone jugs, then pour it onto whatever you want to destroy...and stand waaaay back).

Also wanted to note that some critters in D&D do have what amount to suicide maneuvers (what was the name of that fungus? violet fungi?).

What works and doesn't work is largely up to your DM, as you already seem to be diverging from RAW. If s/he's homebrewing Craft(herbalism), it's functionality is entirely up to her/him.

[Spuddles]

I would let you use profession: herbalist to acquire the reagents & raw materials necessary to make alchemical items. So make your profession herbalism check, make 20 gold with which you can make up to 60gp worth of alchemical items.

Profession skills don't make items, they generate gold.

Flame clover, from DR357, for instance, lets you double the damage of alchemist's fire if you use it during the item's creation.

Master's of the Wild, a 3.0 splat, has the following sidebar (page 31)
Optional Rule: Druids as Alchemists
Druids tend to make poor alchemists, since Alchemy is a cross-class skill for them. But while it’s logical that most druids wouldn’t be experts at creating alchemist’s fire, their exposure to the natural world and its dangers might give them some talent for crafting antitoxins and other substances useful in the wild. Under this optional rule, druids can use the Craft(herbalism) skill instead of the Alchemy skill to create smoke-sticks, tindertwigs, antitoxins, and tanglefoot bags. Use the DCs given in the Alchemy skill description and the rules for making items given in the Craft skill description (see Chapter 3 of the Player’s Handbook).

That, however, is craft(herbalism).

From the same book, you can use herbs to make infusions, where are like potions.

Wilderness Lore (now survival) can be used to find/grow herbs, though you can also grow them with a profession(farmer) check, as well

A profession(herbalist) check lets you prepare herbs for infusion. Takes a very long time, though.


Oxidizers are toxic to all life

Well, except for oxygen.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, except for oxygen.

That's toxic too, actually. The first mass extinction event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event) we have record of was caused by the evolution of cyanobacteria, the first photosynthesizers. They produced oxygen, and since there wasn't anything that used aerobic respiration or had mechanisms to repair damage from oxidation a huge number of things died off.

Also, getting too much oxygen can seriously **** you up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity): infants have to be carefully monitored if they're on oxygen so that they don't go blind, and one of the risks of SCUBA diving is seizures from higher than normal oxygen concentrations (due to breathing "air" at a higher partial pressure).

[Humble Master]

And the alchemist's fire is still hypergolic with air, which means there is no situation that does not involve the first plant to produce it to die in a small inferno that results in its extinction.
Aquatic plant life. I know, still pretty far fetched but I tend to make really weird evolutionary adaptions in my worlds.

Also, I love how this thread has turned into a biology discussion.

[Spuddles]

That's toxic too, actually. The first mass extinction event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event) we have record of was caused by the evolution of cyanobacteria, the first photosynthesizers. They produced oxygen, and since there wasn't anything that used aerobic respiration or had mechanisms to repair damage from oxidation a huge number of things died off.

Also, getting too much oxygen can seriously **** you up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity): infants have to be carefully monitored if they're on oxygen so that they don't go blind, and one of the risks of SCUBA diving is seizures from higher than normal oxygen concentrations (due to breathing "air" at a higher partial pressure).

Anything in too high a concentration, or in the wrong place is toxic. I wouldn't describe oxygen as "toxic to all life," as that removes any meaningfulness of the word toxic. It is certainly toxic to a lot of anaerobic life, but anaerobic life has not constituted all life for like 3 billion years.

Anything in a large enough quantity will upset homeostasis to the point of inducing toxicity. Even water has an LD50. Due to us meatbags being full of electron rich carbon compounds, any electronegative chemical will display toxicity for some concentration.



To some extent. The acid maybe, the antitoxin sure. The thunderstone is still explosive and highly unstable, which means that if the plant gets stepped on (an everday occurrence for most plants) it explodes. And the alchemist's fire is still hypergolic with air, which means there is no situation that does not involve the first plant to produce it to die in a small inferno that results in its extinction.

It wouldn't be particularly difficult, though perhaps slightly contrived, to come up with plants that had evolved mechanisms to deal with that sort of stuff.

Some sort of aquatic, subterranean plant or fungus could have thunderstone nodules on it, and when brushed up or bitten into, detonate. The bladders they are contained in are mostly dead tissue. The resultant detonation deafens, stuns, and, due to they way blindsight/sense works for most creatures, also blinds anything trying to eat the thunderstone bladderwort. The noise also attracts predators. Perhaps a predatory creature lives in symbioses with the plant, as it is a good source of stunned prey.

Alternatively, the plant could be in a nutrient poor environment (like underground, where there is no sunlight for photosynthesis). The sonic cavitation produced by the exploding thunderstone could be used to disable prey, which are then wrapped up all tendriculus-like.

A firetree (omg so original) could secrete flammable sap. If it releases it slowly enough, that's only 1 point of fire damage, which hardness easily eats up. Even if the tree was full on 1d6+1 fire damage to itself, objects take half damage from fire & electricity, so the most it is ever taking is 3 points fire damage. With the hardness 5 of wood, it will never take damage. ANd of course, the firetree is renown for its materials having fire resistance 3 :smallwink:

The biggest biological problem with any of these things are the enormous energy requirements. Photosynthesis is notoriously inefficient, due to RuBisCO activity being real slow. D&D doesn't really seem to care about energy inefficient systems because magic, so one could expect plants in D&D to be more similar to animals than IRL, and we see that with shambling mounds, assassin vines, etc.

I would recommend checking out the arcane plants in Dragon Magazine 357. The whole thing can be found on scribd, for free.

[Yogibear41]

Also, I love how this thread has turned into a biology discussion.

I make it a point(without actually doing anything) to have all my threads become amazing discussion topics.

[Jeff the Green]

Aquatic plant life. I know, still pretty far fetched but I tend to make really weird evolutionary adaptions in my worlds.

What could it possibly do underwater? :smallconfused:

[Humble Master]

What could it possibly do underwater? :smallconfused: Not be exposed to air and thus develop some sort of chemical compound that ignites upon contact with air.

[Jeff the Green]

Not be exposed to air and thus develop some sort of chemical compound that ignites upon contact with air.

Right. But why would it evolve that?

I'm only mentioning evolution because you did; it could also be "a wizard did it," but that's lazy.

[ericgrau]

I dunno I kind of like "a wizard did it" here, much more than trying to abuse biology. Or not necessarily a wizard, but magic. Having the PCs fight these zany magical creatures and then having the herbalist salvage weapons from the corpse would be A-OK for verisimilitude in my book. It would be awesome too.

[Scow2]

Right. But why would it evolve that?

I'm only mentioning evolution because you did; it could also be "a wizard did it," but that's lazy.Because "Why not?" Evolution favors stuff that works exceptionally well and discards stuff that doesn't work. You can end up with a lot of biological baggage from things that don't not work but don't really work either. All it needs is to mutate the ability to produce/secrete an extremely volatile hydrocarbon that doesn't explode underwater (It's quenched by water), but if it's exposed to a high enough concentration of oxygen in an atmosphere, it immediately oxidizes.

It comes with the (Primary? Secondary?) benefit of being able to provide energy quickly, given the fragile bonds.

Oxidation is lethal to all life forms protected from it - largely because life is made primarily of various Hydrocarbons, and the Oxidation process of Hydrocarbons is commonly known as "Fire".

[Spuddles]

Because "Why not?" Evolution favors stuff that works exceptionally well and discards stuff that doesn't work. You can end up with a lot of biological baggage from things that don't not work but don't really work either. All it needs is to mutate the ability to produce/secrete an extremely volatile hydrocarbon that doesn't explode underwater (It's quenched by water), but if it's exposed to a high enough concentration of oxygen in an atmosphere, it immediately oxidizes.

It comes with the (Primary? Secondary?) benefit of being able to provide energy quickly, given the fragile bonds.

Oxidation is lethal to all life forms protected from it - largely because life is made primarily of various Hydrocarbons, and the Oxidation process of Hydrocarbons is commonly known as "Fire".

Why would you want to leak away all your stored energy?

[Asteron]

Anything in too high a concentration, or in the wrong place is toxic. I wouldn't describe oxygen as "toxic to all life," as that removes any meaningfulness of the word toxic. It is certainly toxic to a lot of anaerobic life, but anaerobic life has not constituted all life for like 3 billion years.

Anything in a large enough quantity will upset homeostasis to the point of inducing toxicity. Even water has an LD50. Due to us meatbags being full of electron rich carbon compounds, any electronegative chemical will display toxicity for some concentration.

Ozone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone) is very toxic to just about everything. It's great in the upper atmosphere, but terrible on the surface. O2, not so bad, but add one more oxygen atom and you're in for some pain. It's potent enough that waste water treatment plants use it to purify the water before sending it back out into nature.

I realize that you said that things in the wrong place are toxic, but as this is still oxygen, it's still relevant.

[ericgrau]

A biological poison is like a rock thrown in some gears, disrupting a single specific process in a way that everything stops. It may be resisted and removed. A violent chemical reaction is more akin to taking a giant sledgehammer to those gears. There is no way to become "resistant" without a large amount of expensive brute force. With oxygen, for example, the entire organism is built around being aerobic. An anaerobic bacteria OTOH, will never become resistant to oxygen like it might become resistant to antibiotics.

There are vultures that defend themselves with stomach acid, since the acid is already strong to sterilize carrion. But it is out of desperation. AFAIK nothing hunts with acid. Too much energy and material. And plants have way less energy than animals. As humans with tools and technology we really take it for granted that we can build, wield and expend materials and energy 100 times greater than ourselves.

But in D&D there are plant creatures that flail about and spit all kinds of nasty things and magic. They defy any attempt at or need of being frugal with resources. In a fantasy setting I would suggest harvesting them.

[Jeff the Green]

But in D&D there are plant creatures that flail about and spit all kinds of nasty things and magic. They defy any attempt at being frugal with resources. In a fantasy setting I would suggest harvesting them.

A lot of those are explicitly chemoheterotrophic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemoheterotroph), though. Think holoparasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_plant) on steroids.

[lsfreak]

Given what's been brought up, I just wanted to point out this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_pine).

[Spuddles]

Ozone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone) is very toxic to just about everything. It's great in the upper atmosphere, but terrible on the surface. O2, not so bad, but add one more oxygen atom and you're in for some pain. It's potent enough that waste water treatment plants use it to purify the water before sending it back out into nature.

I realize that you said that things in the wrong place are toxic, but as this is still oxygen, it's still relevant.

And oxygen specie is also highly, highly reactive. The free radical generated can go on to cause all sorts of damage, including messing up chromatin. It's both toxic & carcinogenic.

So I suppose I should have specified O2.


A biological poison is like a rock thrown in some gears, disrupting a single specific process in a way that everything stops. It may be resisted and removed. A violent chemical reaction is more akin to taking a giant sledgehammer to those gears. There is no way to become "resistant" without a large amount of expensive brute force. With oxygen, for example, the entire organism is built around being aerobic. An anaerobic bacteria OTOH, will never become resistant to oxygen like it might become resistant to antibiotics.

Eh? Even obligate anaerobes have oxygen resistance proteins. Pretty sure you can package those proteins on plasmids and pass 'em around to any organisms with sufficient competence.


There are vultures that defend themselves with stomach acid, since the acid is already strong to sterilize carrion. But it is out of desperation. AFAIK nothing hunts with acid. Too much energy and material. And plants have way less energy than animals. As humans with tools and technology we really take it for granted that we can build, wield and expend materials and energy 100 times greater than ourselves.

But in D&D there are plant creatures that flail about and spit all kinds of nasty things and magic. They defy any attempt at or need of being frugal with resources. In a fantasy setting I would suggest harvesting them.

While I agree with what you say, in general, there are a few notable exceptions to using acid.

Camel spit has stomach acid in it, as well as bile and other nasty half digested stomach contents.

The family name of ants is Formicidae, because they produce formic acid. Older lineages of ants use the acid in a poisonous sting, but more modern ants spray the acid at attackers or on prey. The acid is more used in defense and warfare, as opposed to hunting prey- that is more univerally accomplished with jaws and numbers (not all ants have a sting, etc.).

Bees & wasps, which are in the same order as ants, also use formic acid in their stings.

The vinegaroon (whip scorpion) is so named because it sprays a mixture of acetic acid and ocatnoic acid to defend itself.

Bombardier beetles mix hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide (neither acids) to create a very exothermic reaction (over 200 degrees F) which shoots out of their abdomen in a cloud of boiling gas. It kills insects and injures or causes pain in vertebrates (speaking form experience :smalltongue:).

Arthropods, and inverts in general, have a number of unique and interesting defense mechanisms and hunting techniques. This is likely due to being externally scleratized and facing different energy demands than larger animals.

Oh, and the pitcher plant, a carnivorous plant, traps insects in a pitcher full of water, a little acid, and enzymes. It's like a stomach. The biggest genus, Raja, is capable of catching and eating rodents.

[Jeff the Green]

Given what's been brought up, I just wanted to point out this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_pine).

The thing is, Profession (herbalist) would allow you to identify and collect the Jeffrey pine sap, but you still need Craft (alchemy) to distil the n-heptane into a usable form. There are hypergolic/explosive compounds in nature, but to make them usable you usually have to process them extensively, beyond just making tinctures like Profession (herbalist) involves.

[Phelix-Mu]

The thing is, Profession (herbalist) would allow you to identify and collect the Jeffrey pine sap, but you still need Craft (alchemy) to distil the n-heptane into a usable form. There are hypergolic/explosive compounds in nature, but to make them usable you usually have to process them extensively, beyond just making tinctures like Profession (herbalist) involves.

No, I think multiple Craft skills could allow distillation. Craft (alchemy) isn't required for making vodka, to the best of my knowledge (though maybe it should be, as that is some dangerous stuff, IYKWIM). Fermentation and distillation are no more complicated than the complicated end of Craft(cuisine) (which should also be a thing), or Profession(cooking), and mixing ingredients and using beakers hardly requires a precise knowledge of alchemy.

I agree Craft is what is needed, though. Profession's mechanic in RAW is really pretty narrow (almost uselessly so).

[Jeff the Green]

No, I think multiple Craft skills could allow distillation. Craft (alchemy) isn't required for making vodka, to the best of my knowledge (though maybe it should be, as that is some dangerous stuff, IYKWIM). Fermentation and distillation are no more complicated than the complicated end of Craft(cuisine) (which should also be a thing), or Profession(cooking), and mixing ingredients and using beakers hardly requires a precise knowledge of alchemy.

I agree Craft is what is needed, though. Profession's mechanic in RAW is really pretty narrow (almost uselessly so).

You couldn't do it with just distillation. Among other things, it's probably a bad idea to heat something that already bursts into flame in air.

[Phelix-Mu]

You couldn't do it with just distillation. Among other things, it's probably a bad idea to heat something that already bursts into flame in air.

Wait. Doesn't what you just claimed would happen with just distillation already not happen with just distillation of vodka? Maybe I am misunderstanding how distillation works, but I think distillation of flammable substances is an actual thing, even in real life.

It should be possible to make highly flammable substances, even those that spontaneously combust in air, simply by keeping the temperature low and keeping the substance away from the air (tricky, but far from impossible given the totally not-realistic nature of 99.99% of the game).

[TuggyNE]

Wait. Doesn't what you just claimed would happen with just distillation already not happen with just distillation of vodka? Maybe I am misunderstanding how distillation works, but I think distillation of flammable substances is an actual thing, even in real life.

Flammable substances, yes, but not hypergolic; those tend to be anywhere from somewhat harder to handle to "I will not touch this in my lab, no matter what". (Alcohol does not spontaneously ignite upon contact with air.)

[Phelix-Mu]

Flammable substances, yes, but not hypergolic; those tend to be anywhere from somewhat harder to handle to "I will not touch this in my lab, no matter what". (Alcohol does not spontaneously ignite upon contact with air.)

Can't you just significantly dilute the air-contact-combusting substance in something else, then bottle it after processing, and use a density gradient present in the mixture to allow the flammable stuff to separate from the non-flammable? Open the bottle and poof?

I agree, in any case, that alchemists fire is probably beyond the scope of any kind of herbalism. Turpentine, vodka, and other distilled stuff is probably all achievable from anything that would confer knowledge of distillation (Craft(brewing), Craft(cuisine) and the like), and in the end is probably tantamount to alchemist's fire (especially once we, like the DM, discard all of this real life talk of chemistry and biology).

[Jeff the Green]

Can't you just significantly dilute the air-contact-combusting substance in something else, then bottle it after processing, and use a density gradient present in the mixture to allow the flammable stuff to separate from the non-flammable? Open the bottle and poof?

Admittedly, I haven't gotten above a C+ in chemistry since high school, but I'm pretty sure it it's actually dissolved (not just suspended) in water or whatever, it won't spontaneously separate again. Third Law of Thermodynamics and all.

[Spuddles]

Admittedly, I haven't gotten above a C+ in chemistry since high school, but I'm pretty sure it it's actually dissolved (not just suspended) in water or whatever, it won't spontaneously separate again. Third Law of Thermodynamics and all.

Depends totally on solubility.

Alchemist fire is most likely pyrophoric, not hypergolic. It could be something as simple as lantern oil mixed with a pyrophor.

Pyrophor extraction may be no more sophisticated than an ammonia/phosphate extraction of the plant under oil. Add a couple drops of that to your lantern oil and maybe something to thicken it up, like a small amount of animal fat dissolved in ethanol.

It could be as complex as requiring an azeotropic distillation with entrainers, salts, and filtration steps.

Really, all you need is a pyrophor and an accelerant to make alchemist's fire. The substance doesn't need to be entirely composed of pyrophoric compounds, just enough that it ignites itself.

One of the easiest pyrophors to isolate, from rocks, incidentally, is white phosphorous. Unfortunately, it has a flash point around 30C, which isn't low enough to be reliably pyrophoric the way alchemist's fire is. It's also isolated from rocks, not plants.

[SethoMarkus]

Sorry if this was already answered, but is there any reason the OP doesn't just take craft(alchemy) and refluff/rename it herbalism? The DM is already bending rules, so I don't see how this would be an issue rules wise, and as far as the RP aspect of playing an herbalist, there's no reason that he couldn't use other natural, though non-plant (or rather non-organic as the discussion seems to have evolved to include animals) parts of nature- such as minerals and natural chemical/oil deposits.

The witch brewing potions and elixirs in the woods is more similar to an herbalist or apothecary than to a chemist or pharmacist, yet I would still say she is practicing alchemy (via craft(alchemy) skill).

Just a suggestion.

[Yogibear41]

Sorry if this was already answered, but is there any reason the OP doesn't just take craft(alchemy) and refluff/rename it herbalism? The DM is already bending rules, so I don't see how this would be an issue rules wise, and as far as the RP aspect of playing an herbalist, there's no reason that he couldn't use other natural, though non-plant (or rather non-organic as the discussion seems to have evolved to include animals) parts of nature- such as minerals and natural chemical/oil deposits.

The witch brewing potions and elixirs in the woods is more similar to an herbalist or apothecary than to a chemist or pharmacist, yet I would still say she is practicing alchemy (via craft(alchemy) skill).

Just a suggestion.

Mainly:

Wis is 16 Int is 10, I'm a power gamer and wanted to be able to take 10 to meet DCS of 20 at level 3 :O

Also I'm working of a modified vow of poverty (I'm LN) and an alchemy lab would kinda break the vow.

Finally, I have this alchemist/herbalism splat book that me and my Dm are still working on incorporating into the game, and it specifically uses Prof: herb for some of its stuffs.

[Scow2]

Why would you want to leak away all your stored energy?To surround the seeds to ensure they have energy, and possibly attract predators to eat the explosive-in-air nectarlike substance to polinate the plant and spread the seeds.


While I agree with what you say, in general, there are a few notable exceptions to using acid.

Camel spit has stomach acid in it, as well as bile and other nasty half digested stomach contents.

The family name of ants is Formicidae, because they produce formic acid. Older lineages of ants use the acid in a poisonous sting, but more modern ants spray the acid at attackers or on prey. The acid is more used in defense and warfare, as opposed to hunting prey- that is more univerally accomplished with jaws and numbers (not all ants have a sting, etc.).

Bees & wasps, which are in the same order as ants, also use formic acid in their stings.

The vinegaroon (whip scorpion) is so named because it sprays a mixture of acetic acid and ocatnoic acid to defend itself.

Bombardier beetles mix hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide (neither acids) to create a very exothermic reaction (over 200 degrees F) which shoots out of their abdomen in a cloud of boiling gas. It kills insects and injures or causes pain in vertebrates (speaking form experience :smalltongue:).

Arthropods, and inverts in general, have a number of unique and interesting defense mechanisms and hunting techniques. This is likely due to being externally scleratized and facing different energy demands than larger animals.So... you're saying our world is full of tiny, armor-plated dragons?! :smalleek:

[Humble Master]

Don't forget the North American Termite. The soldiers have something called a fontanellar gun which shoots a sticky substance several centimeters. They actually kill prey with it. Not really acid but cool nonetheless.

[Spuddles]

Don't forget the North American Termite. The soldiers have something called a fontanellar gun which shoots a sticky substance several centimeters. They actually kill prey with it. Not really acid but cool nonetheless.

One of my favorites is the velvet worm's (Onycophora) hunting and mating strategy. The fling wads of sticky goo at prey, which then entangles them, allowing the caterpillar-like creature to leisurely consume the entrapped insect. Males don't copulate with females. Instead, they fling a spermatophore at a female which then digests a hole into her body cavity. The sperm then swim through her hemocoel to her ovaries and fertilize her.

Mountain cone shells, one of the deadliest animals in the world, are a marine snail that hunt by firing extremely toxic-as in kill you in 5 minutes and you won't even know how you died- harpoons at fish and crustaceans.

The pistol shrimp hunts via sonic cavitation. Their "pistol", a modified claw, snaps with such force that a lance of collapsing bubbles shoots out and stuns their prey. The temperature of the sonic lance approaches that of the surface of the sun. In fact, sonic cavitation is part of cold fusion research, or "bubble fusion." Thought he biggest proponent of it committed some fraudulent research.

Invertebrates are so cool :smallcool: