(3.5) Necessary Two-Handed Melee Feats [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Pickford

2013-07-02, 12:58 AM

Depends on your class...but

Power Attack
Cleave/Great Cleave
Improved Critical

Weapon Focus/WeaponSpec/GWF/GWS/MWM/Weapon Supremacy - this chain gives +4 to hit, +6 damage, +4 to resist disarm, the ability to wield a 2h in a grapple, +5 to hit on any attack after the first, 1/round take 10 on melee attack and +1 AC.

Combat Reflexes/Defensive Sweep

Of course...you could just as easily go for whirlwind with the intention of working up the Rapid Blitz tree.

edit: I forgot leap attack, but that's mostly if you're looking to do a lot of charging at enemies.
Assuming your group doesn't house-rule that crits don't need to be confirmed, power critical would also be useful.

edit2: I'm guessing since you're lawful and using 2hers you're either a Fighter or a Paladin.

If you're a Fighter...go with the weapon supremacy line, pick up improved grapple and just grapple enemies while taking your full attack using a 2h.

CRtwenty

2013-07-02, 12:58 AM

My character is Lawful, so Barbarian isn't really an option. Is there an alternative way to gain Pounce?

Darth Stabber

2013-07-02, 01:09 AM

As was already stated, monkey grip is terribad, as is great cleave. Great cleave sounds good in theory, but it fails in practice, getting cleaves happens all the time, but rarely is everything going to line up enough for you to get the extra great cleaves. Monkey grip only increases damage dice size at the cost of accuracy. Dice are only a small part of a thf's output, and power attack can already deliver the same increase or better on average, even before adding any additional multipliers.

Shock trooper's effect is powerful, but it kind of stinky prereqs. It's very powerful in a charger build (shaft ac is fine because smoldering wreckage doesn't swing back), but if you are only charging occasionally, and not investing in other charger feats, charger friendly PRCs, and picking up a source of pounce, it's not going to be everything in the world. It does two other things, but no one cares.

Cleave is probably an autopick, if you can squeeze it in. It's skippable if you fight a mostly single monsters, but other than that you really have to have a lot of truely "vital" feats to skip it.

Following the weapon focus line to Weapon supremacy is a waste, minor bonuses that don't matter make for crappy prereqs, and the feat itself isn't that good. You can get it at 18 and at 18 wizards are casting timestop, but your little "bonuses" are cool too.. It only seems good because you had to force yourself to suck in order to qualify.

Improved critical, IT'S A TRAP. Don't spend feats on what you can buy with money, and don't buy crap. The extra crit chance is nice, but THFs don't get enough attacks to be good crit fishers, and without focusing on it, your better off not spending resources on something that's unreliable, the opportunity costs are WAY too high.

Leap attack is an interesting feat, requiring only a very easy jump check, but it won't do you too much good if you aren't a charger.

Combat reflexes is great if you hve the dex to use it, since you hit obnoxiously hard, may as well pound anything that moves near you into crepes. The dex can be a problem, but if you've got it, flaunt it.

Steadfast determination is not really a "thf feat", but most thf's will have a good con score, and not failing will saves is a very nice thing (so you don't reduce the rest of the party into a smoldering pile of wreckage).

Combat brute gives you more PA multiplier the turn after a charge, it has some amusing applications, but is very dependant on the build. I don't remember what else it does.

Ewp (spiked chain) gives you access to an excellent weapon, but is mostly a waste of a feat if you aren't planning on exploiting that delicious reach. Lock down builds appreciate it, others can give it a pass.

Improved trip has a pain in the butt prereq (which requires a good score in what would otherwise be a dump stat), but knocking people down is decent crowd control, and hack while their down is fantastic.

There aren't any real "auto picks" other than power attack, mostly because there are several ways to go with a thf, and their feat selections don't have a lot of overlap. Chainn trippers have autopicks, but they are not things a charger would want (other than PA), and vice versa.

eggynack

2013-07-02, 01:12 AM

My character is Lawful, so Barbarian isn't really an option. Is there an alternative way to gain Pounce?
There's a list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). It's expansive, but barbarian is the best way.

@Pickford: A decent majority of those feats are pretty bad. I'd advise against getting anywhere close to improved critical, great cleave, anything weapon focus based, and if you're suggesting whirlwind attack, that. Combat reflexes and power attack are good though. I also notice that improved grapple is there, which is additionally not good.

CRtwenty

2013-07-02, 01:17 AM

eggynack

2013-07-02, 01:23 AM

I'm focusing mostly on charging. I've got a 15 dex with this guy, so I've got a little bit to work with. But my Int is only 10, so anything with Combat Expertise as a prereq is straight out. (which blows, I didn't think that one through at all :smallannoyed:)

I've also got a few levels of Warblade, so I get nifty maneuvers to mess around with.
Have you considered skipping the parts of your build that are not warblade? That'd probably help out a lot. I mean, you could bypass that prerequisite with some barbarian levels, but that is, again, problematic. Basically, all of the problems that have ever existed can be solved with a two level barbarian dip. It's a tragedy, really.

Flickerdart

2013-07-02, 01:24 AM

A Passive Way Monk gets Combat Expertise and Improved Trip without needing the prerequisites.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-02, 01:24 AM

I'm focusing mostly on charging. I've got a 15 dex with this guy, so I've got a little bit to work with. But my Int is only 10, so anything with Combat Expertise as a prereq is straight out. (which blows, I didn't think that one through at all :smallannoyed:)

I've also got a few levels of Warblade, so I get nifty maneuvers to mess around with.

Lawful chargers are only good mounted (paladin), and even then they can't compete with barbarian chargers on foot. Without pounce, or something similar, a charger is kinda sad.

CRtwenty

2013-07-02, 01:25 AM

Have you considered skipping the parts of your build that are not warblade? That'd probably help out a lot. I mean, you could bypass that prerequisite with some barbarian levels, but that is, again, problematic. Basically, all of the problems that have ever existed can be solved with a two level barbarian dip. It's a tragedy, really.

True. But I'm trying to make the most out of the build I have, not the one that I could have had. For RP reasons he needs some of his weaker stuff, I'm just trying to maximize what I can so I don't fall behind too bad.

Flickerdart

2013-07-02, 01:26 AM

Paladin chargers are only good mounted, and even then they can't compete with barbarian chargers on foot. Without pounce, or something similar, a charger is kinda sad.
Charging Smite is pretty nice. You won't get to Pouncebarian levels of ridiculousness and it's limited uses per day, but 3*level on damage, especially when subsequently multiplied by a Valorous weapon, Rhino's Rush, etc, will probably straight up kill whatever you've charged without needing multiple attacks.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-02, 01:27 AM

True. But I'm trying to make the most out of the build I have, not the one that I could have had. For RP reasons he needs some of his weaker stuff, I'm just trying to maximize what I can so I don't fall behind too bad.

CHAOS SHUFFLE!!!!! It solves so many problems.

Charging Smite is pretty nice. You won't get to Pouncebarian levels of ridiculousness and it's limited uses per day, but 3*level on damage, especially when subsequently multiplied by a Valorous weapon, Rhino's Rush, etc, will probably straight up kill whatever you've charged without needing multiple attacks.

Pouncebarian can use a valorous weapon too, and with 3x PA multiplier from leap attack, and shock trooper and you are getting 3*level damage on a charge too, and if you wiff the first one, or it fails to kill, you get more chances, and you can do it every turn all day everyday, and there's no falling (neither literally off the horse or figuratively off your uptight morals), and 5' suppositories aren't a class feature.

CRtwenty

2013-07-02, 02:30 AM

I'm not a Paladin though, I'm a LE Orc Samurai/Warblade (yes I know it sucks). My DM has let me Ghestalt the OA and the CW Samurai so I get a few extra feats, SP, a better Will Save, and the Ancestral Daisho (so I can build my own custom magical weapon).

So anything that requires Smite Evil or a Paladin ACF is out of the question. I can do things that just require a regular smite (due to Kiai Smite) but that's it. I'll be able to add an additional +1 effect on my weapon next level though so Valorous is an option for me.

We also have a house rule that lets you retrain feats and SP each level up. So I can do some things without having to shuffle.

Jeff the Green

2013-07-02, 02:45 AM

Problem:

So anything that requires Smite Evil or a Paladin ACF is out of the question. I can do things that just require a regular smite (due to Kiai Smite) but that's it. I'll be able to add an additional +1 effect on my weapon next level though so Valorous is an option for me.

Solution. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures)

Edit:
Actually, it's probably not that great for what you're looking for since you'd probably only be dipping it. Still, keep it in mind. Paladins don't have to be LG.

Flickerdart

2013-07-02, 10:03 AM

Pouncebarian can use a valorous weapon too, and with 3x PA multiplier from leap attack, and shock trooper and you are getting 3*level damage on a charge too, and if you wiff the first one, or it fails to kill, you get more chances, and you can do it every turn all day everyday, and there's no falling (neither literally off the horse or figuratively off your uptight morals), and 5' suppositories aren't a class feature.
Yeah, but the Paladin starts out with 3*level before he even takes Shock Trooper or Leap Attack or a Valorous weapon. Barbarian needs to be level 9 before he can even get all of those feats, while Paladin is sitting pretty as soon as he gets Charging Smite 4 levels earlier.

Like I said, ultimately the Barbarian does come out on top, but the Paladin is by no means a slouch.

Pickford

2013-07-02, 10:55 AM

There's a list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). It's expansive, but barbarian is the best way.

@Pickford: A decent majority of those feats are pretty bad. I'd advise against getting anywhere close to improved critical, great cleave, anything weapon focus based, and if you're suggesting whirlwind attack, that. Combat reflexes and power attack are good though. I also notice that improved grapple is there, which is additionally not good.

5% to hit is always good Eggynack. It also allows you to more confidently increase your power attack, which translates to more damage.

Improved critical is perfect for, say, a Falchion where you can get a 15-20 threat range.

He didn't say what his build was, so it was safe to assume Fighter which makes the Weapon Supremacy line the best set of options (If you disagree feel free to show me a loadout that would perform better without it, I would contend there is not one for anything with 18 Fighter). The point is moot if he has 3 levels of Warblade anyway.

edit: Given the samurai, you might as well just get extra smiting (CW).

Why such a high dex if you're likely to be wearing full plate anyway?

Nightraiderx

2013-07-02, 11:43 AM

Law Devotion- it may work only once a day but it's a scaling bonus that maxes out at +7 profane bonus to AC or Attack for a minute near higher levels, so now you can get multi attack. and if you are using samurai, you better be using the skill for quick draw damage (brain went blank can't think of the damn skill name it's in OA)

Namfuak

2013-07-02, 12:09 PM

Nightraiderx

2013-07-02, 12:16 PM

There is but it's tiger claw 4. I don't know what level you are but if you are multiclassing you'll need an effective initiator level of 7 so, 7 lvls warblade, 6 warblade/2 samurai, 5 warblade/4 samurai, 4 warblade/6 samurai, 3 warblade/8 samurai, 2 warblade/9 samurai, or 1 warblade/11 samurai. In reverse so that you would dip warblade later in the build to get higher level manuevers.

Spuddles

2013-07-02, 12:27 PM

Cleave is pretty solid if you're swimming in feats. Great Cleave isn't bad if you've got an AoE blaster in the party. Fireball + Great Cleave works quite well in a level 10 and lower party. After level 10, it's a little harder due to monster HD scaling faster than damage output.

If you scale up your optimization, 80 ft of reach on a great cleaving frenzied shocktrooping spike chain wielding combat brute just killed everything in the room.

I think combat expertise-improved trip-knockdown is the better feat chain, though. Knockdown is pretty much the best melee feat of all time, imo. Damage + battlefield control.

Exotic weapon proficiency isn't bad if you pick greathorn minotaur greathammer, jovar, or spiked chain.

Flickerdart

2013-07-02, 01:00 PM

If you scale up your optimization, 80 ft of reach on a great cleaving frenzied shocktrooping spike chain wielding combat brute just killed everything in the room.
Problem with that is a charge only goes to the point where you can hit the target enemy; if you're less than 90 feet away from it with that kind of reach, you can't even charge. How often do combats start that far apart?

Darth Stabber

2013-07-02, 01:03 PM

5% to hit is always good Eggynack. It also allows you to more confidently increase your power attack, which translates to more damage.

To hit bonus is good, but +1 is nowhere near worth a feat. A feat should give you new capabilities, not a crappy static bonus.

Improved critical is perfect for, say, a Falchion where you can get a 15-20 threat range.

Get yourself a scabbard of keen edge, or the keen weapon property, NEVER spend feat on what you can aquire dirt cheap. Plus crit chance is nice but unreliable, leave crit fishing to the twfers.

He didn't say what his build was, so it was safe to assume Fighter which makes the Weapon Supremacy line the best set of options (If you disagree feel free to show me a loadout that would perform better without it, I would contend there is not one for anything with 18 Fighter). The point is moot if he has 3 levels of Warblade anyway.

edit: Given the samurai, you might as well just get extra smiting (CW).
Weapon supremacy is a terrible feat line. Take what I just said about about weapon focus, no make a whole line of do nothing feats, and add to it that you have to stay in a 6 level class for 18 levels. Weapon supremacy is not even that good, it has a few intereting applications, but it really only works for grappling, and fighter is lucky to get 2 levels in any half decent grappler build.

And extra smite is a waste of a feat in a feat starved class. It provides a small amount of extra smites, which seems like a good fix for smite's number one flaw (too few of them), but really it's throwing good money after bad, since most non-tob melee needs to make multiple attacks to put up decent DPR, and smites remain too few to even with the feat to make that big a difference.

Why such a high dex if you're likely to be wearing full plate anyway?

Prerequisites.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 01:06 PM

There is but it's tiger claw 4.
Pouncing Charge is actually a Tiger Claw 5 maneuver.

(If you disagree feel free to show me a loadout that would perform better without it, I would contend there is not one for anything with 18 Fighter)
First, the Weapon Focus line is a terrible line of feats and only worth considering if there is nothing else you can do with your feats. And since Weapon Supremacy isn't that great and takes six feats to get, you need a lot of spare feats to get something out of it. And even Fighters don't have that many spare feats, particularly when there are quite a few Fighter feat chains that actually do things.

Second, here is a charge-focused Fighter 18:
1-Improved Initiative
F1-Power Attack
F2- Cleave
3- Improved Sunder
F4- Improved Bull Rush
6- Leap Attack
F6- Shock Trooper
F8- Combat Brute
9- Martial Study (Claw at the Moon)
F10- Raptor School
12- Brutal Strike
F12-Martial Study (Sudden Leap)
F14- Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance)
15- Evasive Reflexes
F16- Combat Reflexes
F18- Robilar's Gambit
18-Martial Study (Pouncing Charge)

The build has a few flex slots for feats depending on your build (Robilar's Gambit is a panic-button in case you don't manage to kill your enemy, but can be replaced by Powerful Charge or Knockback or something if you want to absolutely maximize charging. Alternately, go Dungeoncrasher and move some feats up a level or two, and really go to town, be an orc or half-orc and get Headlong Rush, be a raptoran or dragonborn and get Diving Charge with a piercing weapon to deal double damage; really, you've got a lot of options, and I wanted to keep the build generic), but it also gets little benefit from Weapon Supremacy. The small bonuses to damage that you could get out of Weapon Specialization wouldn't be totally useless, because you're a charger and you have ways of multiplying damage, but it's also not that great because numbers are easy to come by, and the build is tight at the levels where you aren't smearing enemies into paste with no effort.
Third, here is a trip-focused Fighter 18 (not a two-handed build, but whatever):
1-Combat Expertise
F1-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain)
F2-Improved Trip
3-Combat Reflexes
F4-Weapon Finesse
6-Stand Still
F6-Two-Weapon Fighting
F8-Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9- Dodge
F10-Karmic Strike
12- Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
F12-Martial Study (Thicket of Blades)
F14-Hold the Line
15-Double Hit
F16- Robilar's Gambit
18- Mobility
F18-Side Step

This build, on the other hand, is extremely tight on feats, and wasting six of them to get Weapon Supremacy is a really bad idea, because it takes away from what you're actually good at in exchange for some small numbers that you really don't need.
All of this is pretending, of course, that you'd actually want to stay in Fighter for 18 levels, which is a terrible idea on its own. If you want to go straight Fighter, you're doing it because you need a metric ton of feats for something important, but most feat chains are finished well before you could access WS.

Spuddles

2013-07-02, 01:17 PM

{scrubbed}

eggynack

2013-07-02, 04:18 PM

5% to hit is always good Eggynack. It also allows you to more confidently increase your power attack, which translates to more damage.

Improved critical is perfect for, say, a Falchion where you can get a 15-20 threat range.

He didn't say what his build was, so it was safe to assume Fighter which makes the Weapon Supremacy line the best set of options (If you disagree feel free to show me a loadout that would perform better without it, I would contend there is not one for anything with 18 Fighter). The point is moot if he has 3 levels of Warblade anyway.

edit: Given the samurai, you might as well just get extra smiting (CW).

Why such a high dex if you're likely to be wearing full plate anyway?
The single uniting factor on most of these things you're listing is that they're strictly numerical bonuses. More importantly, they're not very big numerical bonuses. You need to be hitting something on the scale of power attack in order to make it more worthwhile than tripping or something. In a more specific sense, a 5% increase in to hit is always good, as long as it doesn't cost you a feat. That's a really high opportunity cost you're paying. Improved critical is generally significantly worse, because you can pay cash for the ability, and because the average increase in damage isn't that high. A better fighter loadout probably involves some mix of chain tripping, followed by charging (preferably with a barbarian dip. The lack of one is really getting me down on this build), followed by bull rush (dungeon crasher is sweet), followed by intimidation (zhentarim soldier is also sweet). Maybe not in that order. Generally, if I'm considering taking the weapon focus line in any build, that's a sign that I should stop taking fighter levels. Also, extra smiting is pretty terrible, because kiai smite is pretty terrible.

Edit: Also, why would I play a fighter 18? Fighter 10 makes some sense, because of zhentarim, but after that it's a rather pointless class to take levels in.

Psyren

2013-07-02, 08:37 PM

Great Cleave is pointless for two reasons:

1) As others have said, getting monsters to line up or surround you so you can use it is tricky at best.

2) Even when you can pull it off, if they were that weak then you didn't need a feat to beat them to begin with.

Crasical

2013-07-02, 09:31 PM

I didn't get to play him for long (eaten by a hydra) but my 2handed charging warblade was pretty easily splattering standard targets just power attacking with a valorous bastard sword and shock trooper. Tack on Leap Attack, which I didn't have.... Seems like it wouldn't be hard to create a charger that does more damage than any reasonable opponent can withstand, which encourages your DM to get creative with things to challenge you, which is never a good thing... What point does charge-op become overoptimization?

kulosle

2013-07-02, 09:33 PM

So i think the basic problem with your question is that Two weapon fighter isn't a fighting style in it of itself. I mean are you charging or tripping or what? The only thing you need is power attack. As what was stated earlier, bonuses are almost always bad feats, with the exception of knowledge devotion and power attack and maybe a few others. I'd very much suggest finding out what you want to do.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 09:40 PM

What point does charge-op become overoptimization?
Charging is one of those tactics that's incredibly powerful if you can use it, but also very, very easy to shut down (rough terrain and blocked movement can just stop you from charging, and it's still a melee attack) . It's basically binary; if a charger can successfully charge, he's going to kill whatever is in his way, but if he can't, he's not very helpful.

Crasical

2013-07-02, 09:59 PM

Karnith

2013-07-02, 10:03 PM

Leap attack (A very nice feat I wasn't previously aware of) lets you pretty much rocket over difficult terrain like a face-seeking missile of screaming death, but point taken.
I'm aware of Leap Attack (you may want take a gander at the Fighter 18 Charger build I posted earlier, if you're curious about some other components that can go into a charger build), but unless you're packing Leaping Dragon Stance or Leap of the Heavens, it's going to be a bit hard to actually get that jump going, because of the head start thing. The Nimble Charge skill trick can also help get over difficult terrain, and the Twisted Charge skill trick or Bounding Assault maneuver can help you make a charge even when you don't have a straight line to an opponent, but even then it's kind of risky and not guaranteed (particularly if, say, your opponents aren't obliging enough to be within jumping range, or if they charge you first).

Pickford

2013-07-02, 10:10 PM

To hit bonus is good, but +1 is nowhere near worth a feat. A feat should give you new capabilities, not a crappy static bonus.

Get yourself a scabbard of keen edge, or the keen weapon property, NEVER spend feat on what you can aquire dirt cheap. Plus crit chance is nice but unreliable, leave crit fishing to the twfers.

Weapon supremacy is a terrible feat line. Take what I just said about about weapon focus, no make a whole line of do nothing feats, and add to it that you have to stay in a 6 level class for 18 levels. Weapon supremacy is not even that good, it has a few intereting applications, but it really only works for grappling, and fighter is lucky to get 2 levels in any half decent grappler build.

And extra smite is a waste of a feat in a feat starved class. It provides a small amount of extra smites, which seems like a good fix for smite's number one flaw (too few of them), but really it's throwing good money after bad, since most non-tob melee needs to make multiple attacks to put up decent DPR, and smites remain too few to even with the feat to make that big a difference.

Prerequisites.

Weapon Focus is a pre-requisite for some things (so it'd be useful if you wanted to take some PrCs among other things. (That being said, yeah it'd be much more valuable for a Fighter)

The thing about magic solutions is they don't work if you lose that magic solution/weapon/get disjunctioned/dispelled. The feat works on any random falchion you find after getting robbed/captured and needing to escape etc... (in an anti-magic field). If your DM isn't using obvious counters then the magic item would be good if you're feat poor and cash(magic item) rich.

The line adds base damage/hit, that's not even close to terrible, and wielding a 2h in a grapple is absurdly good.

eggynack

2013-07-02, 10:10 PM

Leap attack (A very nice feat I wasn't previously aware of) lets you pretty much rocket over difficult terrain like a face-seeking missile of screaming death, but point taken.

"Sometimes can unconditionally meatsplode a dude" makes them sound like living Save or Die spells though.
"Did you make your save? No? You die."
"Does that charge attack hit? Yes? Take all the damage."
Well, yeah, basically. A charging build is often like a save or die, except it's rather easy to find perfect defenses against it. You just fly into the air a bit, or set up some battlefield control, or give yourself a high enough miss chance that AC is irrelevant. Barbarians are incredibly effective at what they do. They're possibly the best damage dealer in the game, at least before you hit crazy supercombos like the mailman or hulking hurler. They're just not nearly versatile enough, and they get shut down far too easily. There's just no amount of damage that's going to get you into caster territory, because problems have answers, and wizards can create a massive number of problems, while a barbarian only presents one. Moreover, there are many problems that a wizard can create that are harder to answer on a case by case basis. Thus, I don't think that I'd call anything along a charging axis "overoptimization".

Karnith

2013-07-02, 10:12 PM

The line adds base damage/hit, that's not even close to terrible, and wielding a 2h in a grapple is absurdly good.
Good luck grappling anything by the time you get Weapon Supremacy.

Pickford

2013-07-02, 10:14 PM

Good luck grappling anything by the time you get Weapon Supremacy.

Depends on what your DM throws at you. Do you never fight evil humanoids?

eggynack

2013-07-02, 10:16 PM

Weapon Focus is a pre-requisite for some things (so it'd be useful if you wanted to take some PrCs among other things. (That being said, yeah it'd be much more valuable for a Fighter)

The thing about magic solutions is they don't work if you lose that magic solution/weapon/get disjunctioned/dispelled. The feat works on any random falchion you find after getting robbed/captured and needing to escape etc... (in an anti-magic field). If your DM isn't using obvious counters then the magic item would be good if you're feat poor and cash(magic item) rich.

The line adds base damage/hit, that's not even close to terrible, and wielding a 2h in a grapple is absurdly good.
If a wizard is shooting a disjunction at me, the last thing I want to use against him is improved critical. That's actually still true if he's just using dispel magic. It continues to remain true if he's just a regular wizard, poofing about with his wizard magic. I don't even think keen is worth it, unless you're putting together a lightning maces build or something. The numbers just don't add up very well. Adding base damage and to hit is actually really terrible, if you're doing it instead of taking a good feat. Instead, pick up improved trip, or imperious command, or even the mage slayer line. Get a feat that gives you options, because if you're not getting options from your feats, where are you getting them from? The last thing a fighter needs is more numbers.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 10:16 PM

Depends on what your DM throws at you. Do you never fight evil humanoids?
Freedom of Movement is one of the most useful effects at high levels, and is pretty easily available to anyone with fingers or who casts spells. If you're fighting a single enemy as a party, they're probably going to be higher-level than you, and if you can actually get them into a grapple, they're probably going to be better at it than you are. If you're fighting a group of enemies, grappling is kinda terrible.

So, yes, but they're rarely vulnerable to grappling, and even when they are it's not a good idea.

eggynack

2013-07-02, 10:17 PM

Depends on what your DM throws at you. Do you never fight evil humanoids?
Evil humanoids without some way to get out of a grapple? At level 18? It seems rather improbable.

Pickford

2013-07-02, 10:20 PM

Freedom of Movement is one of the most useful effects at high levels, and pretty easily available to anyone with fingers. If you're fighting a single enemy as a party, they're probably going to be higher-level than you, and if you can actually grapple them that means that they're going to be better at it than you are. If you're fighting a group of enemies, grappling is kinda terrible.

So, yes, but they're rarely vulnerable to grappling, and even when they are it's not a good idea.

Karnith, games aren't constrained to the party fighting a single enemy who (necessarily) is 4x as powerful as them trope.

In any case, having a +5 to a single attack roll a round would be worth taking a feat for. (Or even being able to take 10 on a roll!)

edit: Having all high level enemies have freedom of movement so grappling never works is the equivalent of all high level games take place on dead magic worlds so that magic never works.

Just because the mechanic exists doesn't mean it's wide-spread.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 10:23 PM

Karnith, games aren't constrained to the party fighting a single enemy who (necessarily) is 4x as powerful as them trope.
If your party of 4 (or however many characters you have) is fighting one enemy, either he's stronger than you to compensate for the 4-to-1 odds, or you're just going to curbstomp him without much effort. In the former case (a.k.a. the relevant one), if you can actually get him into a grapple, then he's probably a martial-type who is good at grappling, because grappling is seriously easy to avoid. His higher HD make him better at grappling than you are because of higher BAB, and possibly better items, Strength scores, or whatever.

edit: Having all high level enemies have freedom of movement so grappling never works is the equivalent of all high level games take place on dead magic worlds so that magic never works.

Just because the mechanic exists doesn't mean it's wide-spread.So, your plan is to hope that your enemy doesn't have the extremely easy-to-access countermeasure to your tactic that also answers a ton of other things? Again, good luck with that.

Freedom of movement is one of the most common effects in high-level play, along with Mind Blank (one of the many reasons that not a lot of people like Enchantment spells), flight, and teleportation. If you aren't taking it into account when making a high-level build, you'd better hope you're playing a low-op game.

eggynack

2013-07-02, 10:26 PM

Karnith, games aren't constrained to the party fighting a single enemy who (necessarily) is 4x as powerful as them trope.

In any case, having a +5 to a single attack roll a round would be worth taking a feat for. (Or even being able to take 10 on a roll!)
They don't have to be four times as powerful. They just have to be at around the party's power level. FoM effects are pretty cheap, by that point. Also, you're using grapple? Against a large group of enemies? That doesn't seem like the best idea. Also, sure, weapon supremacy is worth a feat. It's just not anywhere near worth taking that feat, plus its, what, five prerequisites? That seems right. Anyway, those effects would also be worth a feat, except they also require being level 18, and I don't think that any of those effects are any good by that point. These ideas are just generally bad.

Edit:
Having all high level enemies have freedom of movement so grappling never works is the equivalent of all high level games take place on dead magic worlds so that magic never works.

Just because the mechanic exists doesn't mean it's wide-spread.
Those two things are not the same thing. A ring of freedom of movement costs 40,000 GP. A ring of dead magic zone has no cost, because it doesn't exist. There is a difference between these two situations.

Pickford

2013-07-02, 10:32 PM

They don't have to be four times as powerful. They just have to be at around the party's power level. FoM effects are pretty cheap, by that point. Also, you're using grapple? Against a large group of enemies? That doesn't seem like the best idea. Also, sure, weapon supremacy is worth a feat. It's just not anywhere near worth taking that feat, plus its, what, five prerequisites? That seems right. Anyway, those effects would also be worth a feat, except they also require being level 18, and I don't think that any of those effects are any good by that point. These ideas are just generally bad.

Eggynack, your opinion notwithstanding, there's nothing bad about any of the feat tree.

It is also incorrect to take sunk costs into account when considering any economic decision as those costs cannot be recouped. (Thus the feat requirements are irrelevant for purposes of discussing weapon supremacy itself).

Assuming a level 18 Fighter, please show a feat selection that you think would be better off than one including the weapon supremacy tree.

Edit: Karnith, I could also assume that rocks fall, everybody dies at the start of every adventure. Or I could make the more likely assumption that this is a game designed for fun and natural selection will take care of the DMs who don't understand this.

Jeff the Green

2013-07-02, 10:40 PM

It is also incorrect to take sunk costs into account when considering any economic decision as those costs cannot be recouped. (Thus the feat requirements are irrelevant for purposes of discussing weapon supremacy itself).

They're not sunk costs if you haven't already taken them. Yes, a fighter who's already taken (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization should probably take Weapon Supremacy. That doesn't mean you should take (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization in order to take Weapon Supremacy.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 10:47 PM

Assuming a level 18 Fighter, please show a feat selection that you think would be better off than one including the weapon supremacy tree.Please see my builds posted earlier in the thread, neither of which touch the Weapon Focus tree (though, on reflection, Weapon Focus to get access to Three Mountains would be pretty cool for the charger).

Second, here is a charge-focused Fighter 18:
1-Improved Initiative
F1-Power Attack
F2- Cleave
3- Improved Sunder
F4- Improved Bull Rush
6- Leap Attack
F6- Shock Trooper
F8- Combat Brute
9- Martial Study (Claw at the Moon)
F10- Raptor School
12- Brutal Strike
F12-Martial Study (Sudden Leap)
F14- Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance)
15- Evasive Reflexes
F16- Combat Reflexes
F18- Robilar's Gambit
18-Martial Study (Pouncing Charge)

The build has a few flex slots for feats depending on your build (Robilar's Gambit is a panic-button in case you don't manage to kill your enemy, but can be replaced by Powerful Charge or Knockback or something if you want to absolutely maximize charging. Alternately, go Dungeoncrasher and move some feats up a level or two, and really go to town, be an orc or half-orc and get Headlong Rush, be a raptoran or dragonborn and get Diving Charge with a piercing weapon to deal double damage, or shift a few things around to go Mage Hunter; really, you've got a lot of options, and I wanted to keep the build generic), but it also gets little benefit from Weapon Supremacy. The small bonuses to damage that you could get out of Weapon Specialization wouldn't be totally useless, because you're a charger and you have ways of multiplying damage, but it's also not that great because numbers are easy to come by, and the build is tight at the levels where you aren't smearing enemies into paste with no effort.
Third, here is a trip-focused Fighter 18 (not a two-handed build, but whatever):
1-Combat Expertise
F1-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain)
F2-Improved Trip
3-Combat Reflexes
F4-Weapon Finesse
6-Stand Still
F6-Two-Weapon Fighting
F8-Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9- Double Hit
F10- Dodge
12- Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
F12-Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
F14- Karmic Strike
15- Hold the Line
F16- Robilar's Gambit
18- Mobility
F18-Side Step

This build, on the other hand, is extremely tight on feats, and wasting six of them to get Weapon Supremacy is a really bad idea, because it takes away from what you're actually good at in exchange for some small numbers that you really don't need.
I'm still not exactly sure why you'd ever want to go Fighter 18, but there are better things to do with it than take Weapon Supremacy.

eggynack

2013-07-02, 10:56 PM

Eggynack, your opinion notwithstanding, there's nothing bad about any of the feat tree.

It is also incorrect to take sunk costs into account when considering any economic decision as those costs cannot be recouped. (Thus the feat requirements are irrelevant for purposes of discussing weapon supremacy itself).

Assuming a level 18 Fighter, please show a feat selection that you think would be better off than one including the weapon supremacy tree.

Edit: Karnith, I could also assume that rocks fall, everybody dies at the start of every adventure. Or I could make the more likely assumption that this is a game designed for fun and natural selection will take care of the DMs who don't understand this.
I think folks have listed a whole bunch of those. Starting off, we're taking zhentarim soldier, and dungeon crasher. After that, make the build something like:
1: Bull rush
F 1: combat expertise
H 1: improved trip
3: combat reflexes
F 4: knock-down
6: EWP: spiked chain
F 8: power attack
9: Shock trooper
F 10: imperious command
12: Robilar's gambit
F 12: dodge
F 14: karmic strike
15: mage slayer
F 16: blind sight
18: pierce magical protection
F 18: pierce magical concealment

Anyways, that's probably not the best fighter build in the world, especially because I'm not super experienced with melee builds, but the feats here are a lot better than the weapon focus line. Additionally, this is if you're going fighter 18, which you generally should not do. Fighter levels max out around level 10, for zhentarim soldier, and I'd much rather have two barbarian levels in there to make the charging aspect really sing. It's absolutely ridiculous not to take sunk costs into account in this case, because the sunk costs are massive. If you already just so happen to have the entire frigging weapon focus line in the build, then go right ahead and take weapon supremacy. I refuse to accept the idea that I should assume that every fighter build is going to be made of crap. I think that other folks have posted similar builds to this one, so I don't know why you're still asking for them, but here ya go.

Edit: About that Karnith tripping build, A: That second martial study should probably be martial stance. I know that there's some ambiguity as to whether martial study works for stances, but it's probably better to be on the safe side, especially because that build would qualify for the feat at that point, and B: This build should probably have thicket of blades somewhere. I just goes to show that there's a crazy amount of stuff for a fighter to take, even if none of it gets him above tier four.

Karnith

2013-07-02, 11:03 PM

[A]nd I'd much rather have two barbarian levels in there to make the charging aspect really sing.
I'll second this, since my charger build used 3 feats just to get access to pounce at level 18, when I could have just taken a level in Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. It also opens up cool things like Intimidating Rage, in addition to being crazy on its own.

Edit: About that Karnith tripping build, A: That second martial study should probably be martial stance. I know that there's some ambiguity as to whether martial study works for stances, but it's probably better to be on the safe side, especially because that build would qualify for the feat at that point, and B: This build should probably have thicket of blades somewhere. I just goes to show that there's a crazy amount of stuff for a fighter to take, even if none of it gets him above tier four.
Yeah, it was supposed to be Martial Stance. I was shuffling the feats around a bit trying to figure out how to cram them all into the build (and there are still some more I wanted to fit in), and I must have missed that. Whoops. :smallredface:

eggynack

2013-07-02, 11:06 PM

I'll second this, since my charger build used 3 feats just to get access to pounce at level 18, when I could have just taken a level in Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. It also opens up cool things like Intimidating Rage, in addition to being crazy on its own.
I especially like adding a second level, so that you get access to prerequisiteless improved trip from wolf totem. The fact that you need 13 intelligence to put together a chain tripper is crazy. I love barbarian dips, maybe as much as I love cloistered cleric dips.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-03, 01:28 AM

Eggynack, your opinion notwithstanding, there's nothing bad about any of the feat tree.

It is also incorrect to take sunk costs into account when considering any economic decision as those costs cannot be recouped. (Thus the feat requirements are irrelevant for purposes of discussing weapon supremacy itself).

Assuming a level 18 Fighter, please show a feat selection that you think would be better off than one including the weapon supremacy tree.

Edit: Karnith, I could also assume that rocks fall, everybody dies at the start of every adventure. Or I could make the more likely assumption that this is a game designed for fun and natural selection will take care of the DMs who don't understand this.

1) There is no such thing as a sunk feat cost (chaos shuffle). And even if there were, there is such a thing as throwing good money after bad.

2) karnith has shown 2 builds that will be leagues more effective. I would try the same with a grappler, but that is the work of druids, barbarians, and totemists, and even with weapon supremacy, fighters just don't have the tools to make the cut as wrestlers. Were I to make a wrestler it would be some combination of barbarian, totemist, and bear warrior, probably with some way of getting even bigger as icing on that cake.

3) There are several REALLY GOOD ways out of a grapple, and all of them are good for other stuff too. Given the number of really good uses for freedom of movement, and the openness of high level wizard's lower level slots, there are few reasons for them not to have it, and a ring of it is dirt cheap by that point and better than many rings that cost several times as much. Several teleports can get the job done too. It is not even remotely unreasonable for anything that doesn't actively want to to grapple to have it, and a single class fighter would not win against anything that doesn't already want to. In fact it would be highly unreasonable for most spellcasters not to have it, and it would be weird for humanoid non-casters not to. Grappling at high levels is the domain of monsters, and becoming a monster is the only way to enter that arena.

4) Weapon Supremacy doesn't actually make you good at grappling, it just means you do more damage while grappling, which matters little since a grappled foe is not really a threat. What matters is size, strength, and BAB. And damage can be applied far faster in other ways, grapplers are generally looking to suffocate, not eviscerate.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 01:47 AM

I would try the same with a grappler, but that is the work of druids, barbarians, and totemists.
I'd honestly probably kick barbarians and totemists off of this list. Druids just do it so much more efficiently that it's insane. Trading your actions on a one to one basis with an enemy is generally a bad thing, while getting an enemy to trade actions on a one to one basis with your summon or animal companion is generally a good thing. Moreover, summons get the better end of the "monsters are the best at grappling" deal. Tossing animal growth onto a giant crocodile with augment summoning is all you need for ridiculous grapple mods. That stuff alone gets you a grapple mod of +31, and you're getting improved grab for free. I'm sure that there're melee builds that can hit those numbers (Maybe? I'm not familiar with the limitations of grappling in a PO environment.) but it costs a whole build. Also, the druid has access to other summons like the frigging octopus tree. I know it's at SNA IX, and therefore irrelevant for most discussions, but it has a natural grapple mod of +28, and makes 8 attempts a round. You can also become one at level 15, which is neat on a separate basis. I don't know if anyone cares, but it's cool beans.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-03, 04:16 AM

I'd honestly probably kick barbarians and totemists off of this list. Druids just do it so much more efficiently that it's insane. Trading your actions on a one to one basis with an enemy is generally a bad thing, while getting an enemy to trade actions on a one to one basis with your summon or animal companion is generally a good thing. Moreover, summons get the better end of the "monsters are the best at grappling" deal. Tossing animal growth onto a giant crocodile with augment summoning is all you need for ridiculous grapple mods. That stuff alone gets you a grapple mod of +31, and you're getting improved grab for free. I'm sure that there're melee builds that can hit those numbers (Maybe? I'm not familiar with the limitations of grappling in a PO environment.) but it costs a whole build. Also, the druid has access to other summons like the frigging octopus tree. I know it's at SNA IX, and therefore irrelevant for most discussions, but it has a natural grapple mod of +28, and makes 8 attempts a round. You can also become one at level 15, which is neat on a separate basis. I don't know if anyone cares, but it's cool beans.

1) Of course the tier 1 class is better at it.

2) Barbarian/bear warrior is very good, especially with totemist2 dip. It solves the monster is better problem by becoming a monster (if bears count as monsters).

3) trading your actions for your opponent's is actually a fine deal if you have party members to back you up, plus you're choking them out the whole time.

4) of course octopi are good a grappling, as are octopus trees. And both of those are pretty cool.

Jeff the Green

2013-07-03, 05:04 AM

4) Weapon Supremacy doesn't actually make you good at grappling, it just means you do more damage while grappling, which matters little since a grappled foe is not really a threat. What matters is size, strength, and BAB. And damage can be applied far faster in other ways, grapplers are generally looking to suffocate, not eviscerate.

Also, by the time you can get it (level 14), casters have been throwing around freedom of movement for seven levels.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 05:20 AM

Also, by the time you can get it (level 14), casters have been throwing around freedom of movement for seven levels.
I'd make that nine levels. I generally prefer heart of water to actual freedom of movement, even at levels where I have access to both. Ten minutes/level is just such an awkward duration, especially compared to hours/level that can be expended for rounds/level.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 05:43 AM

3) trading your actions for your opponent's is actually a fine deal if you have party members to back you up, plus you're choking them out the whole time.

I think that my point is mainly against this, rather than for druids as grapplers. Sure, druids make great grapplers, but I also think that not-druids make pretty bad grapplers, which is more important. If you're grappling as a barbarian, you're almost certainly losing pounce for the privilege. If you're not getting improved grab from spirit bear totem, you're just doing so much worse at the whole thing that it's crazy. The thing of it is, if a barbarian is in a position where he can grapple the enemy wizard, he'd also be in a much better position to stab the enemy wizard to death. Generally, any defense against being stabbed to death is also going to work against being grappled, and the enemy picks up a few bonus defenses besides.

Tripping makes a lot of sense, because it's a trick that actually increases your killing power a lot of the time, it works efficiently at range, and AoO's mean that it can be used to lock down several enemies at once. Grapple, meanwhile, tends to decrease your killing power, can only lock down a single enemy, and needs to be used right in the enemy's face. I think I may have gotten too focused on how druids are a better option for grappling, while I should have been discussing how not-grappling is a better option for not-druids. It just doesn't seem to be a very effective fighting style compared to all of the other options that are available.

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 05:47 AM

Tripping is even worse than grappling at high levels. Try tripping a beholder, or a flying wizard, or a red wyrm. You can grapple two of those. You can trip zero of them.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 05:52 AM

Tripping is even worse than grappling at high levels. Try tripping a beholder, or a flying wizard, or a red wyrm. You can grapple two of those. You can trip zero of them.
I think that you actually are able to trip flying enemies. There's a thing about it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a). You'd actually probably be significantly better at tripping a flying guy than grappling him, given the reach issue. Realistically, you're not going to do much of anything at high levels, whether it's tripping, grappling, or charging, so I don't see how it makes all that much difference.

Edit: Typed grapple. Meant trip. Ended up saying the opposite of what I meant to say.

Psyren

2013-07-03, 06:17 AM

Charging is one of those tactics that's incredibly powerful if you can use it, but also very, very easy to shut down (rough terrain and blocked movement can just stop you from charging, and it's still a melee attack) . It's basically binary; if a charger can successfully charge, he's going to kill whatever is in his way, but if he can't, he's not very helpful.

Which tends to suck for the DM too. Saph did a great post as to why, but it boils down to this: if you let the charger do his thing, the encounter gets trivialized, and if you stop him, the player feels useless. Plus it starts to get contrived when every bad guy who needs to live longer than one round shows up sporting concealment, on difficult terrain, orbited by mirror images and burrowing through the ground to get away.

Tripping is even worse than grappling at high levels. Try tripping a beholder, or a flying wizard, or a red wyrm. You can grapple two of those. You can trip zero of them.

You can trip a Dragon in 3.5 actually, they fly with wings.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 06:31 AM

I think that you actually are able to trip flying enemies. There's a thing about it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a). You'd actually probably be significantly better at tripping a flying guy than grappling him, given the reach issue. Realistically, you're not going to do much of anything at high levels, whether it's tripping, grappling, or charging, so I don't see how it makes all that much difference.

Edit: Typed grapple. Meant trip. Ended up saying the opposite of what I meant to say.

If you aren't flying via wings, you cannot be tripped in any meaningful way. And a wizard or beholder on its back is just as dangerous not on its back.

You can trip a Dragon in 3.5 actually, they fly with wings.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

Smart dragons put a fly spell on themselves so they have good maneuverability and trip/stall immunity. A vanilla red wyrm also has +65 to resist trip attempts. That's a pretty hard number to crack. Not impossible, but difficult.

Eh, I guess what I am saying is that at least with grappling you force every enemy to use up a ring slot and 40k. Not that'd I'd want to use feats on grapple. Knockdown is just so much cooler, and the damage from a leaping frenzied power attack is going to kill stuff anyway. And with supreme cleave, it's going to kill a lot of other stuff.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 06:41 AM

Smart dragons put a fly spell on themselves so they have good maneuverability and trip/stall immunity. A vanilla red wyrm also has +65 to resist trip attempts. That's a pretty hard number to crack. Not impossible, but difficult.
It also has a +64 against grapple attempts, which isn't particularly easy to crack either. Anyway, none of this really matters. Flying enemies fly, and they tend to have abilities that incentivize attacking at a distance. You're not tripping or grappling any of these enemies. You might be able to stab them to death, but then again, you might not. It's probably the most reliable method though, and tripping interferes much less with a barbarian's ability to charge than grapple does.

Eh, I guess what I am saying is that at least with grappling you force every enemy to use up a ring slot and 40k. Not that'd I'd want to use feats on grapple. Knockdown is just so much cooler, and the damage from a leaping frenzied power attack is going to kill stuff anyway. And with supreme cleave, it's going to kill a lot of other stuff.
The ring slot thing isn't really how the game works. Either you're prepared for grapple, or you're not. A fighter with trip benefits just as much from a wizard's decision to pick up a ring of freedom of movement, and their entire ability set isn't shut down in the process. Anyway, at high levels most of these options suck equally, but at mid-level play, grapple tends to suck more for the reasons I listed. Grappling isn't something I want to be doing, even when it works. You're turning your body into a save or suck that can be saved against every turn, while a charging guy is turning their body into a save or die. Non-druids just tend to have much better options than grappling.

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 07:29 AM

It also has a +64 against grapple attempts, which isn't particularly easy to crack either. Anyway, none of this really matters. Flying enemies fly, and they tend to have abilities that incentivize attacking at a distance. You're not tripping or grappling any of these enemies. You might be able to stab them to death, but then again, you might not. It's probably the most reliable method though, and tripping interferes much less with a barbarian's ability to charge than grapple does.

At level 20, your grapple mod is going to be up to 20 points higher than your trip mod. So there's that.

Most characters figure out how to fly after 20 levels of D&D, wizard or not.

The ring slot thing isn't really how the game works. Either you're prepared for grapple, or you're not. A fighter with trip benefits just as much from a wizard's decision to pick up a ring of freedom of movement, and their entire ability set isn't shut down in the process.

A tripper's ability set is shut down by the overland flight spell, or fly.

Anyway, at high levels most of these options suck equally, but at mid-level play, grapple tends to suck more for the reasons I listed. Grappling isn't something I want to be doing, even when it works. You're turning your body into a save or suck that can be saved against every turn, while a charging guy is turning their body into a save or die. Non-druids just tend to have much better options than grappling.

Yeah, trip is by far king of low to mid level melee. Druids are maybe on par with a dedicated grappler build, but why would you have your druid waste turns on grapple? Unless he's summoning things to try and grapple for him, then it's pretty good.

As far as 2 handed builds go, power attack multipliers, reach optimization and frenzied berserker qualification are the cream of melee feats. Barb 2 for pounce & improved trip to qual for knock down is great. But Fist of the Forest requires improved unarmed strike, so improved grapple isn't too much of a feat stretch.

Feats I wold go for on an optimized two weapon fighter:
Generally good:
Power Attack
Cleave
Knockdown
Inhuman Reach
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Extra Rage
Leap Attack
Shocktrooper

Required for good prestige classes/feats:
Destructive Rage
Intimidating Rage
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Bullrush
Great Fortitude
Improved Trip
Aberration Blood

A fairly good alternative to shocktrooper is two levels of psy war, picking up psychic weapon, deep impact, and practiced manifester. This gets your expansion up to size categories and you aren't charge reliant for dishing out a full power attack, though you'll still want to so you can get that juicy leap attack multiplier.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 07:44 AM

Yeah, trip is by far king of low to mid level melee. Druids are maybe on par with a dedicated grappler build, but why would you have your druid waste turns on grapple? Unless he's summoning things to try and grapple for him, then it's pretty good.
This is actually what I was saying. It's not really worthwhile for anyone to grapple on their own. Druids are great at grappling because they can get animals to grapple for them. If you're going into brown bear form, and tossing on something like bite of the were X, you're doing it wrong. Grappling causes you to be a victim of the action economy, while summoning a giant crocodile to grapple for you causes your opponent to be a victim of the action economy. Picking up an animal companion that's good at grappling is a little more resource intensive, but not by much. Best of all, anything I'd do to make a druid good at grappling (with summons) is something I was probably going to do anyway. Animal growth is always good, summons are spontaneous, and I love summoning feats.

About your list of stuff, assuming that you're able to enter the class at all, I'd generally add runescarred berserker stuff to that list. It's a great way to add some real versatility to a mostly melee build, and the costs aren't prohibitive. Also, your list has intimidating rage on it, and it doesn't look like imperious command is anywhere. That feat is a must, whether you're building an intimidating barbarian, or an intimidating fighter. I'm not going to get into the big frenzied berserker debate, but suffice to say that it's rather contentious, and probably not the best you can do on a barbarian. You're already dealing tons of damage, so pumping it up from one shot kills, to quarter shot kills, isn't often worthwhile.

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 07:54 AM

I'm not sure you can get one-shot kills on a barbarian at level 20 without FB.

18 str
4 race
12 template
5 levels
5 tome
6 item
6 rage

=56 str

That's +34 str damage. Let's go with a +5 weapon with that +2 enhancement that adds +5 damage. Leap attack shocktrooper for full power attack for another 80 damage.

124 per hit. Barely enough to drop a CR10 giant. With FB, that goes up to 204 damage per hit, and you get supreme cleave, so you can clear a room of Pit Fiends if you need to.

Does intimidate work vs. things under Mindblank? I've never really used intimidate except as a DM.

Jeff the Green

2013-07-03, 07:58 AM

Karnith

2013-07-03, 07:58 AM

Add in a Valorous weapon and/or Headlong Rush (if you're an orc or half-orc) and you're dropping most enemies in one hit, FB or no.

Also, I'd add Combat Brute into the good two-handed feats section.

EDIT: Swordsage'd, of course.

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 08:30 AM

Valorous weapon doubles that. Also pounce.

Iteratives are underwhelming. But valorous, now we're talking.

Add in a Valorous weapon and/or Headlong Rush (if you're an orc or half-orc) and you're dropping most enemies in one hit, FB or no.

Also, I'd add Combat Brute into the good two-handed feats section.

EDIT: Swordsage'd, of course.

I forgot about Headlong Rush. And is there anything better than an orc for using two hands? Only if it's a half-minotaur dragonborn mineral warrior water orc!

Karnith

2013-07-03, 08:41 AM

Iteratives are underwhelming.
Whirling Frenzy does give a free second attack at your full attack bonus, so you've got at least two full-power hits, if you want them.

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 09:06 AM

Steadfast Determination is a very good feat to have. Not really related to using a weapon, but if you're a combat brute, and have the feat slots open WHY NOT.

Whirling Frenzy does give a free second attack at your full attack bonus, so you've got at least two full-power hits, if you want them.

Alright, I'll concede that FB isn't necessary to one round KO just about any non-epic creature in a monster manual. I forgot about that, too, and I absolutely love that rage variant.

Of course, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to take all 10 levels of FB, if you've got the room for it. Great Cleave is awesome when you've got reach and a lot of damage output. I honestly don't understand why it gets knocked all the time. If you can kill one monster a round, why not kill every monster a round? And you don't even have to get silly with your damage output- a couple cones of cold from the conjurer's/druid's rashemi elementals softens things up nicely. Blasting + Great Cleave is a really fun way to play and isn't particularly subpar, imo.

If you're worried about frenzy killing your party, just get force caged by the mage once/day and set off all your frenzies there, voluntarily or otherwise. Get all that anger out.

Flickerdart

2013-07-03, 09:49 AM

If you can kill one monster a round, why not kill every monster a round?
Really, you have to ask why "kill everything in the encounter in 1 round" might be a bad idea to throw around?

Spuddles

2013-07-03, 12:34 PM

Really, you have to ask why "kill everything in the encounter in 1 round" might be a bad idea to throw around?

There's no such thing as overkill.

Big Fau

2013-07-03, 01:38 PM

Depends on what your DM throws at you. Do you never fight evil humanoids?

Ok, I've been meaning to say this for a long time: Pickford, you take refuge in audacity so frequently that I have a hard time believing you aren't trying to troll us. How many DMs are going to use humanoid-sized enemies at sub-Epic levels to grapple frequently enough to warrant a feat that requires 18 levels in Fighter or 20 levels in Warblade? Swallow Whole may be more common, but more often than not that tactic makes it easier to escape.

In any case, having a +5 to a single attack roll a round would be worth taking a feat for. (Or even being able to take 10 on a roll!)

Yes, a feat. One. Singular. As in less than 2. Not 6 feats, and not 18 levels in a base class with next to no worthwhile class features. In fact, there is one feat that grants a +5 bonus to attack rolls (constantly no less, instead of only a single attack). Knowledge Devotion. Skill points are more common than feats, and it is trivial to boost Knowledge checks to get that +5.

Karnith

2013-07-03, 01:44 PM

Yes, a feat. One. Singular. As in less than 2. Not 6 feats, and not 18 levels in a base class with next to no worthwhile class features. In fact, there is one feat that grants a +5 bonus to attack rolls (constantly no less, instead of only a single attack). Knowledge Devotion. Skill points are more common than feats, and it is trivial to boost Knowledge checks to get that +5.
In addition, for a charger, Reckless Charge is one feat for a +4 to hit in exchange for -4 AC on a charge.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 04:58 PM

Alright, I'll concede that FB isn't necessary to one round KO just about any non-epic creature in a monster manual. I forgot about that, too, and I absolutely love that rage variant.

Of course, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to take all 10 levels of FB, if you've got the room for it. Great Cleave is awesome when you've got reach and a lot of damage output. I honestly don't understand why it gets knocked all the time. If you can kill one monster a round, why not kill every monster a round? And you don't even have to get silly with your damage output- a couple cones of cold from the conjurer's/druid's rashemi elementals softens things up nicely. Blasting + Great Cleave is a really fun way to play and isn't particularly subpar, imo.

If you're worried about frenzy killing your party, just get force caged by the mage once/day and set off all your frenzies there, voluntarily or otherwise. Get all that anger out.
Well, there're a few reasons for both things. On frenzied berserker, it's just not worth it. As you mentioned, you need to have a special plan in place for not killing your team every time you go into a frenzy. Moreover, it's a rather exploitable thing. What if a room is trapped, and has no enemies in it? Now your first turn is spent stabbing at your closest ally, and that often means instant death. Moreover, these plans cost resources that the party doesn't always have access to. Seriously, your plan involves using several forcecages a day, and those cost 1,500 GP each. There're better ways to do this, but there are often issues, and they tend to have other costs. More importantly, you're not getting much out of the class. You can already kill most enemies in a round, so exploding that damage output doesn't help that much. Compare the capabilities of that to something like runescarred berserker. You get a surprisingly good pile of spells that can seriously help in combat, and you don't risk killing your party every fight.

Great cleave is just bad for obvious reasons. It only helps if you happen to be standing in range of three or more separate enemies, who you can kill in one hit each. If that's what your situation is, the enemies probably aren't so tough that you need a feat to kill them. Cleave is occasionally nice, because having two enemies hanging in the same spot isn't that uncommon, but getting more than that is pretty situational, and you're better off just picking up a feat that does some stuff. There's a good number of feats that can seriously help out with AoO's, so if all of your enemies are dying in one hit, you're probably better off forcing the enemies to provoke AoO's, because those hits will presumably kill them. That's a much better option.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-03, 06:48 PM

I think that my point is mainly against this, rather than for druids as grapplers. Sure, druids make great grapplers, but I also think that not-druids make pretty bad grapplers, which is more important. If you're grappling as a barbarian, you're almost certainly losing pounce for the privilege. If you're not getting improved grab from spirit bear totem, you're just doing so much worse at the whole thing that it's crazy. The thing of it is, if a barbarian is in a position where he can grapple the enemy wizard, he'd also be in a much better position to stab the enemy wizard to death. Generally, any defense against being stabbed to death is also going to work against being grappled, and the enemy picks up a few bonus defenses besides.

Tripping makes a lot of sense, because it's a trick that actually increases your killing power a lot of the time, it works efficiently at range, and AoO's mean that it can be used to lock down several enemies at once. Grapple, meanwhile, tends to decrease your killing power, can only lock down a single enemy, and needs to be used right in the enemy's face. I think I may have gotten too focused on how druids are a better option for grappling, while I should have been discussing how not-grappling is a better option for not-druids. It just doesn't seem to be a very effective fighting style compared to all of the other options that are available.

1) bear warrior gives you improved grab in bearform, thus not impeding your bouncing. Also bear warrior is THE PRC for barbarian grapplers, and the class is not just for grappling, far from it, it's a great damage dealing class, especially with pounce.

2) with bear warrior grappling isn't Plan A, but you can pick your spots pretty easily, if the opportunity is there you can do it. If it's not advantageous, you can just maul them.

3) the totemist dip makes grappling better, but can do 10,000 other things too.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 07:00 PM

1) bear warrior gives you improved grab in bearform, thus not impeding your bouncing. Also bear warrior is THE PRC for barbarian grapplers, and the class is not just for grappling, far from it, it's a great damage dealing class, especially with pounce.

2) with bear warrior grappling isn't Plan A, but you can pick your spots pretty easily, if the opportunity is there you can do it. If it's not advantageous, you can just maul them.

3) the totemist dip makes grappling better, but can do 10,000 other things too.
Fair enough on that count, then. I suppose it's not that high cost a maneuver to pick up. Still, I think that the action cost is too high to make it a good trick most of the time. It feels like any enemy that you can hit like that will be dead before grappling can be relevant. Also, just tossing this out there, but Pickford was specifically bringing this up in the thread's context of two handed melee, while everything you'd do towards grappling would push you away from that. I can definitely see some advantage to an unarmed barbarian build though, maybe with some fist of the forest levels, and perhaps with frostrager to fill things out. If you can incidentally pick up grappling on an otherwise good build, there's probably a situation where it'll be good, but it's nowhere close to something I'd push real resources towards. I guess that's true of druids too, though.

Pickford

2013-07-03, 08:47 PM

I think folks have listed a whole bunch of those. Starting off, we're taking zhentarim soldier, and dungeon crasher. After that, make the build something like:
1: Bull rush
F 1: combat expertise
H 1: improved trip
3: combat reflexes
F 4: knock-down
6: EWP: spiked chain
F 8: power attack
9: Shock trooper
F 10: imperious command
12: Robilar's gambit
F 12: dodge
F 14: karmic strike
15: mage slayer
F 16: blind sight
18: pierce magical protection
F 18: pierce magical concealment

Anyways, that's probably not the best fighter build in the world, especially because I'm not super experienced with melee builds, but the feats here are a lot better than the weapon focus line. Additionally, this is if you're going fighter 18, which you generally should not do. Fighter levels max out around level 10, for zhentarim soldier, and I'd much rather have two barbarian levels in there to make the charging aspect really sing. It's absolutely ridiculous not to take sunk costs into account in this case, because the sunk costs are massive. If you already just so happen to have the entire frigging weapon focus line in the build, then go right ahead and take weapon supremacy. I refuse to accept the idea that I should assume that every fighter build is going to be made of crap. I think that other folks have posted similar builds to this one, so I don't know why you're still asking for them, but here ya go.

Edit: About that Karnith tripping build, A: That second martial study should probably be martial stance. I know that there's some ambiguity as to whether martial study works for stances, but it's probably better to be on the safe side, especially because that build would qualify for the feat at that point, and B: This build should probably have thicket of blades somewhere. I just goes to show that there's a crazy amount of stuff for a fighter to take, even if none of it gets him above tier four.

Besides being MAD (requires at least a 13 in str, dex, and int): Zhentarim Soldier requires the Fighter to be a member of the Zhentarim and you don't mention which substitution levels are being taken either. (3rd/5th/9th). I don't have a copy of dungeonscape, what're the requirements/benefits?

2) imperious command doesn't seem to be a fighter feat (so it can't be taken as the bonus feat at 10th)

3) knockdown is 3.0 material, it's ineligible without a homerule.

4) improved bull rush requires power attack, you can't take it as the 1st level general feat without taking power attack at 1st as well.

But other than that and the idea that Trip isn't useful against most enemies...

eggynack

2013-07-03, 08:53 PM

Besides being MAD (requires at least a 13 in str, dex, and int): Zhentarim Soldier requires the Fighter to be a member of the Zhentarim and you don't mention which substitution levels are being taken either. (3rd/5th/9th). I don't have a copy of dungeonscape, what're the requirements/benefits?

2) imperious command doesn't seem to be a fighter feat (so it can't be taken as the bonus feat at 10th)

3) knockdown is 3.0 material, it's ineligible without a homerule.

4) improved bull rush requires power attack, you can't take it as the 1st level general feat without taking power attack at 1st as well.

But other than that and the idea that Trip isn't useful against most enemies...
The imperious command thing was a mistake. Just mentally move it to another slot. It's not that hard. Also, if I'm taking zhentarim soldier substitution levels, is there any point to not take all of them? It doesn't look like you lose anything from it. Knockdown was in deities and demigods, and was printed in the actual wizard's official SRD, so it's in 3.5. This is just a shell, really. Y'know, proof that there're enough feats to sustain an 18 level fighter build without touching weapon focus. Just shuffle around anything that doesn't seem to work quite right, because I was mostly running this from memory. Alternately, just go with one of Karnith's builds. I'd stay away from the TWF aspect of the tripper build, but it looks fine apart from that.

Pickford

2013-07-03, 08:58 PM

The imperious command thing was a mistake. Just mentally move it to another slot. It's not that hard. Also, if I'm taking zhentarim soldier substitution levels, is there any point to not take all of them? It doesn't look like you lose anything from it. Knockdown was in deities and demigods, and was printed in the actual wizard's official SRD, so it's in 3.5. This is just a shell, really. Y'know, proof that there're enough feats to sustain an 18 level fighter build without touching weapon focus. Just shuffle around anything that doesn't seem to work quite right, because I was mostly running this from memory. Alternately, just go with one of Karnith's builds. I'd stay away from the TWF aspect of the tripper build, but it looks fine apart from that.

The important part about the substitution levels is that it locks you into both a setting and specific faction.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 09:05 PM

The important part about the substitution levels is that it locks you into both a setting and specific faction.
I guess. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me, and if you don't have zhentarim soldier, then seriously, why am I in fighter past level six? There's just no point. There's sunk costs in a melee build beyond the feats you take, and 18 levels of fighter is one of them. Dungeoncrasher trades the 2nd and 6th level feats for some cool bull rushing abilities. Specifically, you get to bull rush your enemies into walls for damage. It's pretty neat. Anyways, I don't think that Karnith's build has anything objectionable to it, past maybe a couple of small changes, so just go with that. It's pretty close to what I would put together, if I were spending actual time on this. Any real two handed melee build I would make would never take more than two fighter levels though. Maybe six, if I really want dungeoncrasher, but never ever 18.

Karnith

2013-07-03, 09:28 PM

Alternately, just go with one of Karnith's builds. I'd stay away from the TWF aspect of the tripper build, but it looks fine apart from that.
The TWF feats enable the use of Double Hit (one of the most important feats of the build), which gets you two attacks for every attack of opportunity you are allowed. With a double weapon with reach like the chain, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Thicket of Blades, Hold the Line, and the like, it enables a ton of attacks. It's pretty one-dimensional, but fun.

Looking at it again, the Miniature's Handbook has some awesome stuff.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 09:34 PM

The TWF feats enable the use of Double Hit (one of the most important feats of the build), which gets you two attacks for every attack of opportunity you are allowed. With a reach weapon like the chain, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Thicket of Blades, Hold the Line, and the like, it enables a ton of attacks. It's pretty one-dimensional, but fun.
Eh, it looks like the double hit attacks suffer from a lot of the same problems as regular TWF does. It doesn't look like it works with a spiked chain, so you'd need to use a more TWF friendly weapon, and you end up with a lot of the same damage issues. I'd probably stick another thing in there, like dungeon crasher, and then you take improved bull rush to make that work, and you have a whole other trick. Double hit looks cool, but I'm just not sure that it's worth it.

Karnith

2013-07-03, 09:37 PM

It doesn't look like it works with a spiked chain, so you'd need to use a more TWF friendly weapon, and you end up with a lot of the same damage issues.
The build uses a chain, not spiked chain (stupid similar names); it's in OA, though the Chain Lash in Savage Species would also work, I think. Also, it's not (mainly) a damaging build, it's a melee lockdown/BFC build; between standstill and trips on AoOs, you can stop enemies from doing much pretty handily.

Or, at least, until you reach the level where tripping becomes useless, but you know.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 09:46 PM

The build uses a chain, not spiked chain; it's in OA. Also, it's not (mainly) a damaging build, it's a melee lockdown build; between standstill and trips on AoOs, you can stop enemies from doing anything pretty handily.

Or, at least, until you reach the level where tripping becomes useless, but you know.
I guess that seems decent enough. You could definitely pull off a pretty extensive radius of lock down. I just tend to prefer it when my lockdown is killing folks efficiently, but I'm not sure that that's not happening. Chains seem cool, so I wonder why they don't get tossed around more. In any case, I just tend to have a preference for non-TWF, so I'd probably just stick something cool there. There's plenty of room in three slots, which I think is the point of all of this. I honestly don't think there's anything purely melee that doesn't become useless at high level, whether it's tripping, or grappling, or weapon supremacy. It's part of the reason why weapon supremacy sucks so much, while all of these builds are reasonably good. If you're sacrificing the early game for the late game on a fighter, especially if that late game is just better fighting, you're making a mistake. Sacrificing some feats for runescarred berserker makes sense, because your late game is actually useful by that point.

Karnith

2013-07-03, 09:52 PM

It's part of the reason why weapon supremacy sucks so much, while all of these builds are reasonably good.
I think "reasonably good" deserves a caveat, and that is "for Fighter 18." Because even though I kind of like my builds (I can honestly say I've never tried to make Fighter X builds before, where X>4), I would really never want to play one in a game. Like a lot of high-level fighter builds, they're pretty one-dimensional and not terribly hard to shut down.

eggynack

2013-07-03, 09:57 PM

I think "reasonably good" deserves a caveat, and that is "for Fighter 18." Because even though I kind of like my builds (I can honestly say I've never tried to make Fighter X builds before, where X>4), I would really never want to play one in a game. Like a lot of high-level fighter builds, they're pretty one-dimensional and not terribly hard to shut down.
Basically, yeah. I mean, as I noted, it's possible to get value for six or nine levels of fighter, depending on what ACF's you can access, but there's no point beyond that. I mean, a charge based build will sometimes be able to one shot something at high levels, so that might be the best you can do, but I think that there needs to be much more consideration for not-18 fighters, and taking weapon supremacy at level 18 will cripple you at levels that are't 18, and won't pay off much at level 18. It's a sad thing, really.

Big Fau

2013-07-04, 12:33 AM

3) knockdown is 3.0 material, it's ineligible without a homerule.

:smallmad: Resisting urge to quote Lex Luthor...

This revision is compatible with existing products, and these products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

Ah screw it, WRONG!

Spuddles

2013-07-04, 01:12 AM

Well, there're a few reasons for both things. On frenzied berserker, it's just not worth it. As you mentioned, you need to have a special plan in place for not killing your team every time you go into a frenzy. Moreover, it's a rather exploitable thing. What if a room is trapped, and has no enemies in it? Now your first turn is spent stabbing at your closest ally, and that often means instant death. Moreover, these plans cost resources that the party doesn't always have access to. Seriously, your plan involves using several forcecages a day, and those cost 1,500 GP each. There're better ways to do this, but there are often issues, and they tend to have other costs. More importantly, you're not getting much out of the class. You can already kill most enemies in a round, so exploding that damage output doesn't help that much. Compare the capabilities of that to something like runescarred berserker. You get a surprisingly good pile of spells that can seriously help in combat, and you don't risk killing your party every fight.

Great cleave is just bad for obvious reasons. It only helps if you happen to be standing in range of three or more separate enemies, who you can kill in one hit each. If that's what your situation is, the enemies probably aren't so tough that you need a feat to kill them. Cleave is occasionally nice, because having two enemies hanging in the same spot isn't that uncommon, but getting more than that is pretty situational, and you're better off just picking up a feat that does some stuff. There's a good number of feats that can seriously help out with AoO's, so if all of your enemies are dying in one hit, you're probably better off forcing the enemies to provoke AoO's, because those hits will presumably kill them. That's a much better option.

The "great cleave is bad because if you can kill it in one hit, it isn't a threat" is a false dichotomy. Besides, when you are shocktrooping, everything is a threat. Besides, what if you get jumped by 10 balors? :smallwink:

Reach optimization is pretty important, just in general. Getting 30ft reach isn't too hard; you can get 90ft with a few dips. That's a pretty big swath of murder and should be target rich enough for great cleave.

This is of course, assuming, that you like to optimize your melee. If you don't mind being playing second fiddle to everything casters do, just let them spam their OP spells, self nerf, and have weak damage output.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 01:25 AM

The "great cleave is bad because if you can kill it in one hit, it isn't a threat" is a false dichotomy. Besides, when you are shocktrooping, everything is a threat. Besides, what if you get jumped by 10 balors? :smallwink:

Reach optimization is pretty important, just in general. Getting 30ft reach isn't too hard; you can get 90ft with a few dips. That's a pretty big swath of murder and should be target rich enough for great cleave.

This is of course, assuming, that you like to optimize your melee. If you don't mind being playing second fiddle to everything casters do, just let them spam their OP spells, self nerf, and have weak damage output.
If you're surrounded by ten balors, great cleave seems like it'd be rather useless. I mean, leaving aside the improbability of the situation, your own damage estimates were pegged somewhere beneath the HP of a balor. If you manage to drop one, you get a free hit off of cleave, and then you're almost certainly done. I'm pretty sure that thirty and ninety foot reach is hard to get, so you should probably actually put together the build for assessment. If you like to optimize your melee, you should avoid great cleave, which requires that all of your targets be pretty close together, and enter runescarred berserker, which can actually do things. Cleave is pretty neat, because it lets you get a free attack if you drop an enemy. Great cleave is mediocre at best, because you're unlikely to ever want cleave more than once a round.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-04, 01:39 AM

Fair enough on that count, then. I suppose it's not that high cost a maneuver to pick up. Still, I think that the action cost is too high to make it a good trick most of the time. It feels like any enemy that you can hit like that will be dead before grappling can be relevant. Also, just tossing this out there, but Pickford was specifically bringing this up in the thread's context of two handed melee, while everything you'd do towards grappling would push you away from that. I can definitely see some advantage to an unarmed barbarian build though, maybe with some fist of the forest levels, and perhaps with frostrager to fill things out. If you can incidentally pick up grappling on an otherwise good build, there's probably a situation where it'll be good, but it's nowhere close to something I'd push real resources towards. I guess that's true of druids too, though.

You've pretty much guessed most of my pet barbarian build (barb4/fighter2/fof1/bear warrior5/fof2/frost rager3/totemist2/warblade1). Though as you deduced, it is an unarmed build not a BSF build. Bear-fu FTW!

eggynack

2013-07-04, 01:44 AM

You've pretty much guessed most of my pet barbarian build (barb4/fighter2/fof1/bear warrior5/fof2/frost rager3/totemist2/warblade1). Though as you deduced, it is an unarmed build not a BSF build. Bear-fu FTW!
Fancy. Do you get anything in particular from the second two levels of barbarian? I've always thought of barbarian as a strictly two level dip, though streetfighter might make it worthwhile for longer. I've gotta figure that there's something cool you could do with two free levels.

georgie_leech

2013-07-04, 01:46 AM

eggynack

2013-07-04, 01:59 AM

If you're going Warblade over fighter, or have some way of boosting IL, Great Cleave can be useful/cool with the Wolf Pack Tactics (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/wolf-pack-tactics--3752/)stance and a good reach weapon. Combine with a way of rerolling crit failures, and some nice movement speed....

"I don't care if they only hit on a 20 and have 10 hp, there's 1000 thousand orcs out there! We need to flee!"

"Nah, give me six seconds."
That does seem pretty cool, though perhaps not all that useful. I mean, you're at level 15, so 1000 orcs isn't going to challenge any party worth its salt. Realistically, if you're a 15th level warblade, there's not much you can do that'll make less than reasonably powerful.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-04, 02:05 AM

Fancy. Do you get anything in particular from the second two levels of barbarian? I've always thought of barbarian as a strictly two level dip, though streetfighter might make it worthwhile for longer. I've gotta figure that there's something cool you could do with two free levels.

Mostly the extra rage, means that with one extra rage feat i'm hitting the 4 encouters per day.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 02:13 AM

Mostly the extra rage, means that with one extra rage feat i'm hitting the 4 encouters per day.
I suppose. It seems like a long way to go for half the effects of a feat. Most of the best dips cost BAB, but that's probably not the biggest deal on a bear. Cloistered cleric, for example, is always fantastic, and if you feel comfortable working around the alignment restrictions, an unarmed grapple build is just about the only situation in existence where I'd recommend a dip into monk. There's also psychic warrior, if expansion seems worth a dip, and your build has warblade but not crusader, and I'm sure there's something that class can do if you play it right. It's a thing worth thinking about, I think.

TuggyNE

2013-07-04, 02:34 AM

They're not sunk costs if you haven't already taken them. Yes, a fighter who's already taken (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization should probably take Weapon Supremacy. That doesn't mean you should take (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization in order to take Weapon Supremacy.

The thing I love about the Playground is you get to see new and exciting fallacies, and then watch them get shot to bits quite tidily. Nice concise rebuttal, Jeff. :smallwink:

eggynack

2013-07-04, 02:56 AM

The thing I love about the Playground is you get to see new and exciting fallacies, and then watch them get shot to bits quite tidily. Nice concise rebuttal, Jeff. :smallwink:
What do we call this one, anyways. The, "theoretical sunk cost fallacy?" Like, we're just supposed to assume that any given fighter is going to throw away all of their feats like this, so we might as well take weapon supremacy at the end of it all.

Pickford

2013-07-04, 03:01 AM

:smallmad: Resisting urge to quote Lex Luthor...

Ah screw it, WRONG!

So...what are those adjustments?

Jeff: On the basis of skipping zhentarim alone that's weapon focus and weapon spec. After that it's worth picking up GWF over dodge and GWS over using an exotic weapon to begin with. Now we're looking at melee weapon mastery which is frankly a no brainer. And boom: Weapon Supremacy. There's no feat on those builds that is better.

Spuddles

2013-07-04, 03:01 AM

If you're surrounded by ten balors, great cleave seems like it'd be rather useless. I mean, leaving aside the improbability of the situation, your own damage estimates were pegged somewhere beneath the HP of a balor. If you manage to drop one, you get a free hit off of cleave, and then you're almost certainly done. I'm pretty sure that thirty and ninety foot reach is hard to get, so you should probably actually put together the build for assessment. If you like to optimize your melee, you should avoid great cleave, which requires that all of your targets be pretty close together, and enter runescarred berserker, which can actually do things. Cleave is pretty neat, because it lets you get a free attack if you drop an enemy. Great cleave is mediocre at best, because you're unlikely to ever want cleave more than once a round.

Cleave attempts proc off successful Knockdowns.

I meant 30ft and 60ft. Getting 90 is too feat intensive; I'm not sure it's attainable, actually.

30ft reach:
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Spiked Chain

60ft reach
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Expansion to gargantuan
Practiced Manifester
That warblade stance that gives you reach
Spiked Chain

With supreme power attack, headlong rush, shocktrooper with BAB 18, and a +1 valorous weapon, and 20ish damage coming from str, damage per smack is around 12d6+500. With whirling frenzy that's two attacks at primary BAB for +39/+39. Your next couple iteratives also have a pretty good chance of landing.

Strength & weapon optimization should get that up to close to 600 static damage.

So...what are those adjustments?

There aren't any. :smallconfused:

It isn't using 3.0 psionic rules, 3.0 damage resistance, wilderness lore, wonky monk flurry of blows progression, etc.

Jeff: On the basis of skipping zhentarim alone that's weapon focus and weapon spec. After that it's worth picking up GWF over dodge and GWS over using an exotic weapon to begin with. Now we're looking at melee weapon mastery which is frankly a no brainer. And boom: Weapon Supremacy. There's no feat on those builds that is better.

Are you kidding me?
A good build is hitting every target within 30 to 60ft for 100-500 damage, tripping anything that's trippable, smacking them again, and cleaving off every successful trip/kill.

Weapon Focus is digging a hole and throwing your feat into it.

Pickford

2013-07-04, 03:09 AM

Cleave attempts proc off successful Knockdowns.

I meant 30ft and 60ft. Getting 90 is too feat intensive; I'm not sure it's attainable, actually.

30ft reach:
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Spiked Chain

60ft reach
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Expansion to gargantuan
Practiced Manifester
That warblade stance that gives you reach
Spiked Chain

With supreme power attack, headlong rush, shocktrooper with BAB 18, and a +1 valorous weapon, and 20ish damage coming from str, damage per smack is around 12d6+500. With whirling frenzy that's two attacks at primary BAB for +39/+39. Your next couple iteratives also have a pretty good chance of landing.

Strength & weapon optimization should get that up to close to 600 static damage.

There aren't any. :smallconfused:

It isn't using 3.0 psionic rules, 3.0 damage resistance, wilderness lore, wonky monk flurry of blows progression, etc.

Are you kidding me?
A good build is hitting every target within 30 to 60ft for 100-500 damage, tripping anything that's trippable, smacking them again, and cleaving off every successful trip/kill.

Weapon Focus is digging a hole and throwing your feat into it.

No, I'm not kidding you. +1 to hit on all attacks vs +1 AC against a single opponent. Weapon focus is easily worth taking over dodge.

edit: And if you compare the other feats from Sword and Fist that 'did' transfer over they've all been altered. (in effect and requirements)

eggynack

2013-07-04, 03:11 AM

So...what are those adjustments?

Jeff: On the basis of skipping zhentarim alone that's weapon focus and weapon spec. After that it's worth picking up GWF over dodge and GWS over using an exotic weapon to begin with. Now we're looking at melee weapon mastery which is frankly a no brainer. And boom: Weapon Supremacy. There's no feat on those builds that is better.
What are you talking about? Zhentarim trades absolutely nothing for its intimidation ability, which is why I was assuming it. Dungeon crasher, which does trade stuff, is much better than weapon focus or weapon supremacy. Dodge is absolutely horrible, but it's a prerequisite for karmic strike, which is pretty excellent, among other things. Why would you take GWS over chain (or spiked chain) proficiency, when the ability to threaten adjacent enemies with a tripping weapon is absolutely crucial? Basically, none of your proposed changes are worth more than the feats they're replacing.

Cleave attempts proc off successful Knockdowns.

I meant 30ft and 60ft. Getting 90 is too feat intensive; I'm not sure it's attainable, actually.

30ft reach:
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Spiked Chain

60ft reach
Inhuman Reach
Half-Minotaur
Expansion to gargantuan
Practiced Manifester
That warblade stance that gives you reach
Spiked Chain

With supreme power attack, headlong rush, shocktrooper with BAB 18, and a +1 valorous weapon, and 20ish damage coming from str, damage per smack is around 12d6+500. With whirling frenzy that's two attacks at primary BAB for +39/+39. Your next couple iteratives also have a pretty good chance of landing.

Strength & weapon optimization should get that up to close to 600 static damage..
I guess you can do that, but it doesn't exactly seem worthwhile. You're already killing just about everything in reach with that build, with or without bonus attacks from great cleave, so it's still overkill. You also have a good chance at spontaneously killing your party every time a trap goes off in your presence, so that's a bit of a downside as well. I'd much rather pick up a feat that gives you some actual options, rather than capitalize on the deaths I would have caused otherwise.

Spuddles

2013-07-04, 03:28 AM

guess you can do that, but it doesn't exactly seem worthwhile. You're already killing just about everything in reach with that build, with or without bonus attacks from great cleave, so it's still overkill.

It depends on how many targets are around you.

You also have a good chance at spontaneously killing your party every time a trap goes off in your presence, so that's a bit of a downside as well. I'd much rather pick up a feat that gives you some actual options, rather than capitalize on the deaths I would have caused otherwise.

Get all that rage out in the morning. You only get 5 frenzies a day.

Alternatively, craft contingent spell to make you manageable that a trusted party member can set off in case you lose it.

Wizard tells you to leave his MMM, you go out side gearless, he closes the door, designates you as orc non grata. Then you flip **** for a little while, and that's that.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 03:33 AM

Get all that rage out in the morning. You only get 5 frenzies a day.

Huh. That idea is actually pretty good. You get the cool power attack bonus, without being effected by the half-downside that is the frenzy.

Spuddles

2013-07-04, 03:58 AM

Huh. That idea is actually pretty good. You get the cool power attack bonus, without being effected by the half-downside that is the frenzy.

I think FB would be a decent prestige class if it had no rage powers. It basically exchanges 4 feats for two bonus feats and about 4 extra damage per character level.

The frenzy really ramps up unkillable damage machine, but as you've pointed out, there's a tendency to freak out and kill your party.

But that's putting all your eggs in the damage basket and relying on your ability to end most statted monsters with a full attack, all at once. Warblade 20, runescarred berserker, duskblade, or psy warrior are probably all "better" in that you can do things other than damage. Doing 1000s of damage a round is kind of a jerk move for most games, anyway.

You can get sufficient damage without supreme power attack, thanks to valorous weapons and headlong rush. Not sufficient to be dropping balors in a single blow, but in a charge+another full attack.

If your DM likes to have more than two monsters attack at once, great cleave is great with knockdown. It's even better at low levels when there won't be as many magically flying creatures or consistently huge+ creatures.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-04, 04:25 AM

No, I'm not kidding you. +1 to hit on all attacks vs +1 AC against a single opponent. Weapon focus is easily worth taking over dodge.

Dodge is a prerequisite for a few better feats, weapon focus is not. Neither is even remotely worth taking on it's own merits. Comparing dodge and weapon focus is like betting on the outcome of a fight between quadriplegics. At some point you have to admit that weapon focus is crap. I thought it was good way back when, but believe me, life gets better when you admit to the obvious when it is staring you in the face. Even warblades (who can move their weapon focus around) don't take the feat, and they can do the most with it. Even in core+phb2 there is no situation in which you want to take fighter that far, and even if you did there is no way that you want to take weapon focus if you are giving even a passing nod to the efficacy of your character. Cleave is useful because it shifts the action economy slightly in your favor, PA gives you an adjustable option for increasing damage output, improved trip grants you a static bonus+an action economy shift. Notice all of the "good feats" offer you new capabilities as opposed to small bonuses. Believe me when I say that I have done every sort of trial on meleers. At no point is weapon focus ever a good choice. As a GM I use it on guys that need a feat, but are not supposed to be all that threatening, but never on a BBEG, or his dragon, or on any other combatant with a name. Weapon focus is a complete trap, on every level, and no one but you will even try to defend it, maybe that should be your clue.

Karnith

2013-07-04, 07:44 AM

Dodge is absolutely horrible, but it's a prerequisite for karmic strike, which is pretty excellent, among other things.
Unless you need it to come online earlier, you're probably better off taking Robilar's Gambit, which does not require Dodge and has a better trigger condition than Karmic Strike.

Dodge is a prerequisite for a few better feats, weapon focus is not.
Oh, I dunno, I quite like Three Mountains; Weapon Focus is the only pre-req that a lot of fighter builds wouldn't take normally, and with a spalsh into Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy barbarian getting two hits in one round is pretty achievable. Combine with Knock-down and it's a soft lock. It's certainly a waste of a feat if you're at the op-level that you're smearing everything into a fine paste in one hit, but I think it's acceptable at lower op-levels.

Granted, it's literally the only feat I can think of that requires Weapon Focus that I think might be worth taking.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 07:51 AM

Unless you need it to come online earlier, you're probably better off taking Robilar's Gambit, which does not require Dodge and has a better trigger condition than Karmic Strike.

True enough. It was still absolutely ridiculous on Pickford's part to compare dodge to weapon focus directly, without taking its nature as a feat tax into account at all. I don't know if taking dodge followed by something good is the best option, but just saying that a +1 to hit is better than a situational +1 to AC (which it is), is just a crazy misrepresentation of the facts. I mean, we were talking about weapon supremacy, so feat taxes were an integral part of the conversation to begin with.

Pickford

2013-07-04, 01:22 PM

What are you talking about? Zhentarim trades absolutely nothing for its intimidation ability, which is why I was assuming it. Dungeon crasher, which does trade stuff, is much better than weapon focus or weapon supremacy. Dodge is absolutely horrible, but it's a prerequisite for karmic strike, which is pretty excellent, among other things. Why would you take GWS over chain (or spiked chain) proficiency, when the ability to threaten adjacent enemies with a tripping weapon is absolutely crucial? Basically, none of your proposed changes are worth more than the feats they're replacing.

Karmic strike is effectively a 2-feat Robilar's Gambit, better to drop it and dodge for ws and wf respectively, increasing your damage output. Even Robilar's is misguided as it is better for a character that is focusing on high AC (so they get missed 'and' get to make the attack) rather than higher damage output. (a 2h fighter)

Eggynack Dodge requires a 13 minimum dex, weapon focus only a +1 bab.

Only WF provides a benefit against all opponents, Dodge is limited to a single target. In group melee Dodge is relatively worthless.

edit: And WF is a prerequisite for:

Anvil of Thunder (CW) , Anvil of Thunder (CW) , Axespike (RS) , Bear Fang (CW) , Bear Fang (CW) , Blood-Spiked Charger (PH2) , Blood-Spiked Charger (PH2) , Crescent Moon (CW) , Crescent Moon (CW) , Dire Flail Smash (CR) , Flensing Strike (ECS) , Greater Power Specialization (XPH) , Hammer's Edge (CW) , Hammer's Edge (CW) , High Sword Low Axe (CW) , High Sword Low Axe (CW) , Lightning Mace (CW) , Net and Trident (CW) , Overwhelming Critical (DMG) , Power Penetration (XPH) , Power Specialization (XPH) , Powerful Bite (LoM) , Quick Staff (CW) , Ranged Recall (CM) , Ranged Spell Specialization (CAr) , Reach Bite (LoM) , Serpent Strike (ECS) , Shield of Blades (PE) , Spinning Halberd (CW) , Sudden Willow Strike (PE) , Three Mountains (CW) , Touch Spell Specialization (CAr) , Turtle Dart (RS) , Whirling Steel Strike (ECS) , Double Steel Strike (ECS) , Sanctify Martial Strike (BE) , Crossbow Sniper (PH2) , Overwhelming Critical (EL) , Devastating Critical (EL) , Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2) , Weapon Specialization (PH) , Overwhelming Critical (Dr) , Sense Weakness (Dr) , Greater Weapon Focus (PH) , Weapon Supremacy (PH2) , Dead Eye (DC) , Ring the Golden Bell (DC) , Single Blade Style (DC) , Despana School (DrU) , Eilservs School (DrU) , Steal And Strike (DrU) , Steal And Strike (DrU) , Tormtor School (DrU) , Vae School (DrU) , Vile Martial Strike (EE) , Forceful Staff Style (Gh) , Devastating Critical (Dr).

Dodge is a preq for:

Bounding Assault (PH2) , Combat Archery (CW) , Combat Cloak Expert (PH2) , Combat Defense (PH2) , Combat Tactician (PH2) , Defensive Strike (CW) , Defensive Throw (CW) , Elusive target (CW) , Karmic Strike (CW) , Melee Evasion (PH2) , Mobility (PH) , Psionic Dodge (XPH) , Quick Staff (CW) , Rapid Blitz (PH2) , Roof-Jumper (Ci) , Roofwalker (Ci) , Sahuagin Flip (Sto) , Shield of Blades (PE) , Shot on the Run (PH) , Sidestep (MH) , Sidestep Charge (XPH) , Spring Attack (PH) , Titan Fighting (RS) , Whirlwind Attack (PH) , Wolfpack (RW) , Cautious Attack (DrU) , Circle Student (DC) , Circle Master (DC) , Deceptive Dodge (DC) , Mighty are Fallen (DC) , Shadowborn Warrior (DrU) , Shi`Quos School (DrU) , Xaniqos School (DrU)

Big Fau

2013-07-04, 02:55 PM

Karmic strike is effectively a 2-feat Robilar's Gambit, better to drop it and dodge for ws and wf respectively, increasing your damage output. Even Robilar's is misguided as it is better for a character that is focusing on high AC (so they get missed 'and' get to make the attack) rather than higher damage output. (a 2h fighter)

Hold the phone. How in the Nine Hells is getting a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls better than getting an extra attack at your highest attack bonus when it comes to dealing damage?

A typical full attack from a high-level melee combatant looks like (not counting other modifiers) +A/+B/+C/+D and deals 4X (X=Weapon damage). Let's assume the base numbers are +35/+30/+25/+20 (+5 Enhancement, +10 Strength modifier), and assume that X=5d6+5 (Greatsword, +5 Enhancement, Frost, Flaming, and Shocking weapon qualities). Let's assume the AC of the target is 41 (and that the target has no other defenses). I know this example is horrendously suboptimal, but this argument applies at all levels of melee optimization involving the feats in question (WF+WS VS Karmic Strike).

Assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, WF+WS turns the attack bonuses into +47/+42/+37/+32, so half of the attacks the WF guy makes hit. This means his damage output is 10d6+44, averaging at 79 damage per round.

Assuming the target can trigger Karmic Strike (how is irrelevant, all that matters is that Karmic Strike triggers at least once), and again assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, the guy with Karmic Strike has an attack routine that looks like +46/+46/+41/+36/+31. This means his damage output is 15d6+60, averaging at ~112 damage per round. That's at minimum a 38% increase in damage compared to WF+WS, and that's just from one trigger of Karmic Strike. Every additional attack given by Karmic Strike (I only did 1 additional attack, as that is the maximum number of AoOs someone can take without additional effects such as Combat Reflexes).

Taking away the Karmic Strike trigger reduces the damage output of the Karmic Strike guy's attack routine to 10d6+40. WF+WS means a literal increase of 10% in damage, while Karmic Strike is nearly a 50% increase in damage. It isn't quite a full 50%, but it is very close.

Even if Karmic Strike only triggers once in an entire encounter, and the Karmic Strike guy is forced to deal 10d6+40 damage per round, he's still ahead by ~33 damage. It would take 8 rounds of full attacks for the guy with WF+WS to catch up, and 9 rounds to start dealing more damage.

Let's change this up. Same numbers, different feats. Karmic Strike guy has not changed. WF+WS guy now has everything up to Weapon Mastery, so WF+WS+GWF+GWS+WM.

Assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, WF Guy's feats turn the attack bonuses into +50/+45/+40/+35, and again half of the WF Guy's attacks are hitting (using Weapon Supremacy at this point would be meaningless, as the attack roll for every attack is assumed to be 11). His new damage output is 10d6+48, averaging at 83 damage per round. Karmic Strike guy's damage output hasn't changed. He's still sitting at ~112 per round. Last I checked, 112>83.

Pickford, unless we are in magical bizzaro world, you are dead wrong. AGAIN.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 04:21 PM

TuggyNE

2013-07-04, 07:43 PM

I don't know how you get from, "karmic strike is effectively a 2-feat Robilar's gambit," to, "Therefore, weapon focus is better." That is, quite aptly, crazy troll logic.

I believe the term of art is Insane Troll Logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic), but otherwise yes.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 08:29 PM

I believe the term of art is Insane Troll Logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic), but otherwise yes.
Yeah, I was absolutely trying to go for the Buffy/trope reference, and missed the mark. It's a sad thing, because the double meaning was pretty neat. I might just edit it in, and acknowledge that you're not being a crazy person for quoting non-existent stuff hereabouts.

Pickford

2013-07-04, 11:01 PM

Hold the phone. How in the Nine Hells is getting a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls better than getting an extra attack at your highest attack bonus when it comes to dealing damage?

A typical full attack from a high-level melee combatant looks like (not counting other modifiers) +A/+B/+C/+D and deals 4X (X=Weapon damage). Let's assume the base numbers are +35/+30/+25/+20 (+5 Enhancement, +10 Strength modifier), and assume that X=5d6+5 (Greatsword, +5 Enhancement, Frost, Flaming, and Shocking weapon qualities). Let's assume the AC of the target is 41 (and that the target has no other defenses). I know this example is horrendously suboptimal, but this argument applies at all levels of melee optimization involving the feats in question (WF+WS VS Karmic Strike).

Assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, WF+WS turns the attack bonuses into +47/+42/+37/+32, so half of the attacks the WF guy makes hit. This means his damage output is 10d6+44, averaging at 79 damage per round.

Assuming the target can trigger Karmic Strike (how is irrelevant, all that matters is that Karmic Strike triggers at least once), and again assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, the guy with Karmic Strike has an attack routine that looks like +46/+46/+41/+36/+31. This means his damage output is 15d6+60, averaging at ~112 damage per round. That's at minimum a 38% increase in damage compared to WF+WS, and that's just from one trigger of Karmic Strike. Every additional attack given by Karmic Strike (I only did 1 additional attack, as that is the maximum number of AoOs someone can take without additional effects such as Combat Reflexes).

Taking away the Karmic Strike trigger reduces the damage output of the Karmic Strike guy's attack routine to 10d6+40. WF+WS means a literal increase of 10% in damage, while Karmic Strike is nearly a 50% increase in damage. It isn't quite a full 50%, but it is very close.

Even if Karmic Strike only triggers once in an entire encounter, and the Karmic Strike guy is forced to deal 10d6+40 damage per round, he's still ahead by ~33 damage. It would take 8 rounds of full attacks for the guy with WF+WS to catch up, and 9 rounds to start dealing more damage.

Let's change this up. Same numbers, different feats. Karmic Strike guy has not changed. WF+WS guy now has everything up to Weapon Mastery, so WF+WS+GWF+GWS+WM.

Assuming a roll of 11 on every attack, WF Guy's feats turn the attack bonuses into +50/+45/+40/+35, and again half of the WF Guy's attacks are hitting (using Weapon Supremacy at this point would be meaningless, as the attack roll for every attack is assumed to be 11). His new damage output is 10d6+48, averaging at 83 damage per round. Karmic Strike guy's damage output hasn't changed. He's still sitting at ~112 per round. Last I checked, 112>83.

Pickford, unless we are in magical bizzaro world, you are dead wrong. AGAIN.

snipped to spoiler.

You say you're making several assumptions. Let's change just one: The AC is now 47 instead of 41. Fairly reasonable.

Now The karmic strike build hits 0 times, dealing 0 damage and the WS build hits twice.

Not only this, but the AC swing from Karmic strike means such a character will be getting hit 20% more by all attackers, 15% more from one (assuming dodge were declared).

edit: Fau, another issue is that you're assuming 11s when only Weapon Supremacy can actually take 10 on a melee attack. Thus while the Weapon Supremacy build will do at least 2 hits, it's entirely possible for the Karmic Strike build to whiff all times and not get the extra attack (as they may not even be subject to a melee or melee touch attack) rendering their output a 0.

eggynack

2013-07-04, 11:11 PM

Big Fau

2013-07-04, 11:24 PM

snipped to spoiler.

You say you're making several assumptions. Let's change just one: The AC is now 47 instead of 41. Fairly reasonable.

Now The karmic strike build hits 0 times, dealing 0 damage and the WS build hits twice.

Not only this, but the AC swing from Karmic strike means such a character will be getting hit 20% more by all attackers, 15% more from one (assuming dodge were declared).

That's not really how the probability works. He said he was rolling all 11's, but that's a simplification. There's a 45% chance that he'll roll a 12 or higher on his karmic strike hit, so as I've mentioned in the past, you multiply that by the damage of the hit, which I'm pretty sure gives you far more extra damage than a 5% increase to hit, and a +2 to damage. If you want, we can run specific actual combat numbers. His numbers were also not including combat reflexes, despite that having a place in the actual build.

Eggynack covered my rebuttal. However, I would like to point out that you're wrong again Pickford: Neither the WF+WS or the WM Guy hit more than once if the AC of the target is increased to 47.

The opportunity cost of being hit more while using Karmic Strike is outweighed by being able to kill them before their attack resolves (since, unlike Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike does not specify that the AoO happens after the attack that triggers it). While neither of my simplifications are actually capable of 1HKing any level-appropriate enemies, actual Jack B. Quick builds can do so quite handily.

After all, who cares if they are 20% more accurate if you kill them before they can actually hurt you?

Karnith

2013-07-04, 11:47 PM

While neither of my simplifications are actually capable of 1HKing any level-appropriate enemies, actual Jack B. Quick builds can do so quite handily.
For reference, the classic Jack B. Quick build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick), a build that actually does take Weapon Focus (twice!) to meet pre-reqs, but wisely opts not to continue down the rest of the feat path, and which I would also submit would be significantly worse if forced to take the entire Weapon Supremacy feat chain, not the least because the build revolves around having two different weapons:Jack B. Quick
Human Fighter 20
Feats
1-Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Dodge
H-Weapon Focus (Longsword)
2F-Combat Expertise
3-Improved Trip
4F- Weapon Focus (Handaxe)
6- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
6F- High Sword Low Axe
8F-Combat Reflexes
9- Karmic Strike
10F- Double Hit
12- Robilar's Gambit
12F- Mobility
14F- Elusive Target
15- Power Attack
16F- Overpowering Attack
18- Improved Unarmed Strike
18F- Defensive Throw
20- Sidestep

Relevant build notes:
-Gets four attacks per hit against him at level 9; with an attack routine of sword-axe-trip-sword
-Theoretically gets 8 attacks per hit against him, effective at level 12; Robilar's Gambit plus Karmic Strike plus Double Hit plus Improved Trip leads to AoO routines of sword-axe-trip-sword off of Robilar's Gambit, then again off of Karmic Strike. Since tripping a tripped opponent for free attacks is unlikely to be ruled to work, he will likely get 6 attacks per AoO, with an attack routine of sword-axe-trip-sword plus sword-axe.
-By level 16, Overpowering Attack lets him make a single attack as a full-round action to deal double damage. This double damage also applies to each of his AoOs made until the start of his next turn.

Big Fau

2013-07-05, 12:09 AM

For reference, the classic Jack B. Quick build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick), a build that actually does take Weapon Focus (twice!) to meet pre-reqs, but wisely opts not to continue down the rest of the feat path, and which I would also submit would be significantly worse if forced to take the entire Weapon Supremacy feat chain, not the least because the build revolves around having two different weapons:Jack B. Quick
Human Fighter 20
Feats
1-Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Dodge
H-Weapon Focus (Longsword)
2F-Combat Expertise
3-Improved Trip
4F- Weapon Focus (Handaxe)
6- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
6F- High Sword Low Axe
8F-Combat Reflexes
9- Karmic Strike
10F- Double Hit
12- Robilar's Gambit
12F- Mobility
14F- Elusive Target
15- Power Attack
16F- Overpowering Attack
18- Improved Unarmed Strike
18F- Defensive Throw
20- Sidestep

Relevant build notes:
-Gets four attacks per hit against him at level 9; with an attack routine of sword-axe-trip-sword
-Theoretically gets 8 attacks per hit against him, effective at level 12; Robilar's Gambit plus Karmic Strike plus Double Hit plus Improved Trip leads to AoO routines of sword-axe-trip-sword off of Robilar's Gambit, then again off of Karmic Strike. Since tripping a tripped opponent for free attacks is unlikely to be ruled to work, he will likely get 6 attacks per AoO, with an attack routine of sword-axe-trip-sword plus sword-axe.
-By level 16, Overpowering Attack lets him make a single attack as a full-round action to deal double damage. This double damage also applies to each of his AoOs made until the start of his next turn.

Yeah. The only feat I can see being changed out is ITWF, but only because the build was designed prior to the MiC being printed and the Gloves of the Balanced Hand.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 12:39 AM

Yeah. The only feat I can see being changed out is ITWF, but only because the build was designed prior to the MiC being printed and the Gloves of the Balanced Hand.
This doesn't work. Double hit has improved two weapon fighting as a prerequisite, and the glove only lets you fight as though you have the feat. Specifically, the wording in question is, "you can make an additional attack with your off hand as if using the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat." Thus, the glove doesn't work for prerequisites, so the actual feat is necessary (assuming that there are no other sources that do work for this).

Big Fau

2013-07-05, 12:47 AM

Fau, another issue is that you're assuming 11s when only Weapon Supremacy can actually take 10 on a melee attack. Thus while the Weapon Supremacy build will do at least 2 hits, it's entirely possible for the Karmic Strike build to whiff all times and not get the extra attack (as they may not even be subject to a melee or melee touch attack) rendering their output a 0.

I'm not assuming Weapon Supremacy is involved (the WS stands for Weapon Specialization), I'm assuming every d20 roll is 11 for the sake of consistency. And since Weapon Supremacy isn't involved, the same whiff-chance applies to the Weapon Focus Guy.

I merely removed the random number variable in order to simplify the math.

@eggynack: I didn't know that about Double Hit.

georgie_leech

2013-07-05, 02:45 AM

I'm not assuming Weapon Supremacy is involved (the WS stands for Weapon Specialization), I'm assuming every d20 roll is 11 for the sake of consistency. And since Weapon Supremacy isn't involved, the same whiff-chance applies to the Weapon Focus Guy.

I merely removed the random number variable in order to simplify the math.

@eggynack: I didn't know that about Double Hit.

For a lark, let's actually run the damage. Assuming the same fighter you used (5d6+5 damage on a hit for an average of 22.5, +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 full-attack and KS use routine for Karmic Strikington; 5d6+7 on a hit for 24.5 average at +36/+31/+26/+21 for Weapon Focus the III), and ignoring criticals since the math gets a lot more complex including them (and since KS has an additional attack he gets roughly 25% more criticals anyway) .

Against the original target of AC 41, KS's routine translates to a chance to hit of 75%/75%/50%/25%/5%(Natural 20 only), so gets a total average damage of 51.75 per round. WF's is 80%/55%/30%/5% (but doesn't need the auto hit from the 20, so, yay?) for an average damage of 41.65. KS wins this exchange, with almost 25% higher average damage per round. Again, this is assuming that somehow KS is triggered (not important how) and that despite having Combat Reflexes and a positive DEX mod you only manage to get one off; each additional KS is an additional 16.875 average damage.

Let's take Pickford's new AC of 47 (I don't know, maybe they threw on some better armour). KS has chances to hit of 45%/45%/20%/5%/5% for total average damage of 28. WF has chances of 50%/25%/5%/5% for a total average damage of 20.825. Wow, average damage is almost 40% more effective in this case.

Pickford

2013-07-05, 03:17 AM

Eggynack covered my rebuttal. However, I would like to point out that you're wrong again Pickford: Neither the WF+WS or the WM Guy hit more than once if the AC of the target is increased to 47.

The opportunity cost of being hit more while using Karmic Strike is outweighed by being able to kill them before their attack resolves (since, unlike Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike does not specify that the AoO happens after the attack that triggers it). While neither of my simplifications are actually capable of 1HKing any level-appropriate enemies, actual Jack B. Quick builds can do so quite handily.

After all, who cares if they are 20% more accurate if you kill them before they can actually hurt you?

You're wrong about both attack landing. The 2nd attack of WS gets an additional +5 to hit, that means both the first and second attacks land and the 2nd one is guaranteed to courtesy of the take 10.

None of the karmic strike builds attacks land.

Also, you're wrong about the AoO, Karmic Strike specifies that the attack must hit, so it operates exactly as Robilar's Gambit, happening after the attack has landed.

edit: Georgie, you forgot to include the +5, which we might as well put on the 2nd attack making it 80%/80%/30%/5% (or you could do it as 80%/55%/30%/30% and take 10 on the 2nd attack meaning it's actually 100%

So really it's a question of which is better: (let's just remove the str mods entirely and reduce opposing AC by a similar amount to reduce the complexity here).

Weapon supremacy line:
80%/auto-hit/30%/30% or 80%/auto-hit/55%/5%
Damage is 5d6 + 11 per hit (16-41; 28.5 ave)
Minimum damage per round: 16
Maximum Damage per round: 328
More likely than not damage: 85.5 (2 near guaranteed, 1 better than 50% and 1 long-shot)

or Situational Karmic Strike:
60%/35%/10%/5% + 60% 'if' melee/melee touched.
damage is 5d6 + 5 per hit (10-35; 22.5)
Minimum damage per round: 0
Maximum damage per round: 315, +35 for each karmic strike landed.
More likely than not damage: 45 (1 better than 50%, 1 unlikely, 2 long-shot)
with karmic strike: 67.5 (and this is being fairly generous with how likely the long-shots are to ever hit)

eggynack

2013-07-05, 03:24 AM

You're wrong about both attack landing. The 2nd attack of WS gets an additional +5 to hit, that means both the first and second attacks land and the 2nd one is guaranteed to courtesy of the take 10.

None of the karmic strike builds attacks land.

Also, you're wrong about the AoO, Karmic Strike specifies that the attack must hit, so it operates exactly as Robilar's Gambit, happening after the attack has landed.
As I noted, his numbers were a simplification, so he wouldn't have to do math. Saying that none of the karmic strike hits land is ridiculous. 45% of the karmic strike hits land against a target with an AC of 47. Georgie Leech's math seems like a good estimate of what would happen if the karmic strike guy only got one AoO per round, which is a situation that is ridiculously in the weapon focus guy's favor. Realistically, by level 18, the Robilar's gambit guy would have combat reflexes, as well as a pretty hefty dexterity. Additionally, you can't compare weapon supremacy directly to Robilar's gambit. You need to compare dodge plus Robilair's gambit to weapon supremacy and its five prerequisites.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 05:32 AM

Is Pickford seriously comparing the strength of 6 feats to three feats, then concluding therefore that weapon focus is better than karmic strike?

eggynack

2013-07-05, 05:42 AM

Is Pickford seriously comparing the strength of 6 feats to three feats, then concluding therefore that weapon focus is better than karmic strike?
Not exactly. Pickford is comparing two feats to six feats, because combat expertise is necessary for improved trip as well, and is also doing so in a manner that has incorrect notions of probability, so the two feats are still possibly better. I say possibly instead of probably, because at some dexterity ranges, all of your AoO requirements are likely fulfilled by the other feats in the build. Still, I'd probably rather have dodge and karmic strike than that pile of crap, even if I were choosing under the assumption that both feat sets were free. You'd still get the feats at the same levels, but they wouldn't cost slots. Anyways, the point is that it's a fair measure worse than you said. This is a sad state of affairs.

Edit: I actually missed a thing. The ultimate purpose of his argument isn't just to show that weapon focus and weapon specialization are better than dodge and Robilair's gambit in that build. It's to show that weapon focus and weapon specialization are better than every other possible set of two feats. The claim is that fighters get so many feats that these are the best choices, so that's the comparison that's being made.

TuggyNE

2013-07-05, 05:45 AM

Is Pickford seriously comparing the strength of 6 feats to three feats, then concluding therefore that weapon focus is better than karmic strike?

Probably? Color me in as surprised, please.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 07:33 AM

Is Pickford seriously comparing the strength of 6 feats to three feats, then concluding therefore that weapon focus is better than karmic strike?

I think the declaration of "troll" is gathering evidence as this discussion continues. I'm not sure how the MOUNTAIN of contrary evidence is failing to have impact, but fail it has. I don't know how much more clearly the point can be made about how aweful the weapon focus line is, or how feats that give you new capabilities are significantly more valuable than give tiny bonuses.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 07:48 AM

eggynack

2013-07-05, 08:01 AM

Let's all build different characters. I'll make a rager, someone can make a J.B. Quick. Someone else can make a tripper or whatever.

Pickford can build his weapon supremacy build.

Then we all make 2 or 3 encounters and run them. Let's see who does the best.

Let's see, what should our limitations be? Must have a BAB of 18 by level 20, no level adjustment, 32pb, standard wbl, no full casting?
There's two real issues with that. The first issue is that I'd probably just try to do all of those things at once. Raging and tripping are about as far from mutually exclusive as it gets, and tossing on some extra AoO shenanigans isn't that high cost. I'd probably just skip that, and pick up runescarred berserker, but that might be a bit out out of the scope of this thing. The second issue is that running crazy encounter tests is a plan that tends to result in even crazier arguments than we're having now, which causes there to be no resolution, which usually leads thread closure. I dunno if it's a Pickford thing, or just the natural state of encounter testing, but it's nigh on inevitable.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 08:06 AM

There's two real issues with that. The first issue is that I'd probably just try to do all of those things at once. Raging and tripping are about as far from mutually exclusive as it gets, and tossing on some extra AoO shenanigans isn't that high cost. I'd probably just skip that, and pick up runescarred berserker, but that might be a bit out out of the scope of this thing.

That's a non-issue, really. I suspect that most of our builds will be using trip, but how we use trip may be different. Remember, the purpose is to show what feats are actually good.

And I would say runescarred berserker is perfectly acceptable for this challenge.

The second issue is that running crazy encounter tests is a plan that tends to result in even crazier arguments than we're having now, which causes there to be no resolution, which usually leads thread closure. I dunno if it's a Pickford thing, or just the natural state of encounter testing, but it's nigh on inevitable.

It doesn't really matter how things get ruled. The only important part is that after each round, we analyze how things could have gone if
a)Pickford's fighter actually picked good feats
b)one of our characters had improved sword fetish instead of steadfast determination.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 08:25 AM

That's a non-issue, really. I suspect that most of our builds will be using trip, but how we use trip may be different. Remember, the purpose is to show what feats are actually good.

And I would say runescarred berserker is perfectly acceptable for this challenge.

There's not all that many ways to trip something. There are some, granted, but you can add most of the build as an addendum to another thing at that level. Also, if runescarred berserker is an option, it probably just wins. That list is surprisingly good in spots. The only realistic competition is a warblade, but I'm not even sure if that'd necessarily be better.

It doesn't really matter how things get ruled. The only important part is that after each round, we analyze how things could have gone if
a)Pickford's fighter actually picked good feats
b)one of our characters had improved sword fetish instead of steadfast determination.
Have you seen some of the other threads that went this route? The parameters you're stating aren't going to do too much to help in this case. Consider this: what would you say, if prior to this argument's existence, someone were to tell you that there was going to be an argument comparing weapon focus to Robilar's gambit in quality? Consider the situation you're creating from that perspective, and note that if this argument is so contentious, there's no way in hell that anything you're discussing won't be. It's just the way things go, especially when Pickford is a core component of the argument.

Big Fau

2013-07-05, 10:06 AM

You're wrong about both attack landing. The 2nd attack of WS gets an additional +5 to hit, that means both the first and second attacks land and the 2nd one is guaranteed to courtesy of the take 10.

How the hell does the second attack get a +5 bonus? Seriously, where is that number coming from? And, again, I assumed the WF Guy didn't have anything beyond Weapon Focus+Weapon Specialization. The point you made that I was contesting was that those two feats were superior to Dodge+Karmic Strike.

I never said that the initial experiment was about a person with the entire Weapon Supremacy line VS a guy with Karmic Strike. Please read my earlier post and the quote more closely. Or at all, preferably.

None of the karmic strike builds attacks land.

And there you go ignoring the simple assumptions I outlined in the experiment. Every d20 roll was treated as being 11 for the sake of simplicity, and you are now saying that none of the attacks hit despite this.

Again, this isn't about taking 10 on an attack roll, this is comparing the benefits of two feats that provide a +1/+2 to attack/damage rolls VS the merits of a pair of feats that grant a -3/-4 AC and an AoO every time you are hit.

Also, you're wrong about the AoO, Karmic Strike specifies that the attack must hit, so it operates exactly as Robilar's Gambit, happening after the attack has landed.

All right, that much is true. That's the only correct thing you've said this entire thread.

I dunno if it's a Pickford thing, or just the natural state of encounter testing, but it's nigh on inevitable.

The only times I've seen that happen are when the defendant is losing the argument and refuses to give up. I saw it with the Joker Monk thread, I saw it back at WotC with the Sword and Board "debates", and I see it every time Pickford makes an argument.

Flickerdart

2013-07-05, 11:45 AM

Probably? Color me in as surprised, please.
Orange for surprise? :smalltongue:

Pickford

2013-07-05, 01:14 PM

Is Pickford seriously comparing the strength of 6 feats to three feats, then concluding therefore that weapon focus is better than karmic strike?

Not exactly Spuddles. What would you take 'instead' of the latter three feats of the chain? They only get better, so the opportunity cost for not taking WS simply becomes higher.

Big Fau was assuming a level 20 Fighter build that had WF and WSpe somehow lacked WS, I made the point that this would not occur (why would you stop right before getting the single best feat a Fighter can get?) which invalidates his example, then proceeded to redo with it included.

But for your suggestion, why don't you make a Fighter build and I'll substitute the WS line/make changes where appropriate? To keep it simple, no magic items, only mundane. :smallsmile:

And for further simplicity: Fighter 20, no ACFs, no other classes. No substitution etc...

Just feats, elite array.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 02:04 PM

Human fighter 20 has what, 11 bonus fighter feats, 6 feats from levels, and a bonus feat for being human?

That's 18 feats.

Karnith

2013-07-05, 02:48 PM

To keep it simple, no magic items, only mundane. :smallsmile:

And for further simplicity: Fighter 20, no ACFs, no other classes. No substitution etc...

Just feats, elite array.
(Emphasis mine)

Just so you know, the highlighted conditions are going to make these sample Fighters bear little resemblance to actual high-level conditions at virtually any op-level. I suppose it doesn't actually matter so much for the purposes of this test, but any builds/characters presented aren't actually going to be remotely close to what high-level fighters really look like, in terms of numbers or capabilities.

georgie_leech

2013-07-05, 03:01 PM

(Emphasis mine)

Just so you know, the highlighted conditions are going to make these sample Fighters bear little resemblance to actual high-level conditions at virtually any op-level. I suppose it doesn't actually matter so much for the purposes of this test, but any builds/characters presented aren't actually going to be remotely close to what high-level fighters really look like, in terms of numbers or capabilities.

Not to mention that disallowing common means of raising attack numbers like increasing strength or enhancement bonuses suddenly make WF and WS important. The restrictions from the start lead to the "test" being unfair; of course WF and WS are going to be better if you have literally no other means of increasing accuracy and damage.

Karnith

2013-07-05, 03:08 PM

Not to mention that disallowing common means of raising attack numbers like increasing strength or enhancement bonuses suddenly make WF and WS important. The restrictions from the start lead to the "test" being unfair; of course WF and WS are going to be better if you have literally no other means of increasing accuracy and damage.
Eh, even then, there are better options for increasing to-hit and damage than the Weapon Focus feats. With a charger, for example, you can go Reckless Charge (+4 to-hit for 1 feat), and for damage you can get Headlong Rush (if orc or half-orc is allowed) or Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge (since "mundane" presumably means no Martial Study and hence no Pounce; +2d6 to damage).

That said, yeah, the conditions put a priority on effects that normally you could very easily replicate with items.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 03:10 PM

Karnith

2013-07-05, 03:13 PM

It doesn't really matter. Even in such conditions, WF line isn't worth it.
Naturally not (I even said so in my post!), I just felt the need to point out that the restrictions imposed mean that even if Weapon Focus were a good feat under these conditions, it wouldn't mean much because the conditions are pretty far removed from actual play.

Gavinfoxx

2013-07-05, 03:17 PM

eggynack

2013-07-05, 03:25 PM

Not exactly Spuddles. What would you take 'instead' of the latter three feats of the chain? They only get better, so the opportunity cost for not taking WS simply becomes higher.
Seriously, how do you figure that? Greater weapon focus and specialization seem functionally identical to the other regular versions. Mastery and supremacy seem better, for a decent amount of this build, you're just facing the ever-progressing line of diminishing returns. Further, Karnith was pretty clear about what he would take instead of every feat in the chain, and as far as I'm concerned, you've yet to disprove a single one. You've only mentioned two holes in the progression, neither of which made any sense, and there's still four remaining. Further, it'd be pretty trivial to just stop AoO'ing for a bit, and start down a different path. That list doesn't have a single thing from the power attack line, and that's just the start. My feat list wasn't perfect, but you could just toss in some stuff from that to fill in perceived gaps.

Big Fau was assuming a level 20 Fighter build that had WF and WSpe somehow lacked WS, I made the point that this would not occur (why would you stop right before getting the single best feat a Fighter can get?) which invalidates his example, then proceeded to redo with it included.
Which build are you talking about here? I don't remember that one. Anyway, whichever one it is, even with weapon focus and weapon specialization already on the build for presumably prerequisite based reasons, it's still not worth paying a three feat tax for weapon supremacy. Also, that is just not the best feat a fighter can get. Not by a long shot. I think that you should explain why you think that's the case, because I think that it's at the core of your error. Like every other feat in the chain, weapon supremacy provides strictly numerical bonuses. Especially at 18th level, that's just not worth the investment. You need feats that give you actually expanded capabilities, or you end up without any actual capabilities.

But for your suggestion, why don't you make a Fighter build and I'll substitute the WS line/make changes where appropriate? To keep it simple, no magic items, only mundane. :smallsmile:

And for further simplicity: Fighter 20, no ACFs, no other classes. No substitution etc...

Just feats, elite array.
We basically have builds like that already. You still haven't finished "proving" that weapon focus and specialization are better than dodge and karmic strike, and you certainly haven't progressed beyond that point to find three more slots. The fighter 20 thing makes some sense, even though it's ridiculous. In opposition to common parlance, weapon supremacy's requirement of 18 fighter levels is a bug, rather than a feature. Realistically, in order to actually prove that weapon supremacy has any value, you actually have to show that a fighter 18 with weapon supremacy is better than an actual melee build without it.

Still, as for where we are now, you may take note of the fact that most characters have access to magic items, and aren't built off the elite array. Thus, it only makes sense to construct off of that standard. You're not making things simpler; you're making things further from the truth. The same could be said of ACF's, particularly because the only reason to stay in fighter past level two is ACF's and substitution levels. Stll, Karnith's tripping build didn't seem to use them, so it doesn't matter much. In any case, you have a pile of melee builds in front of you. If you think that you're able to show that these are suboptimal due to a lack of this line of feats, frigging prove it. Give actual evidence for the feats you're replacing being wrong, and not ridiculous evidence based on karmic strike never hitting. I might make a couple of constructive edits to that build, but in the mean time, it seems to suit our purposes well. Go at it, with the heart of an optimizer.

Karnith

2013-07-05, 03:30 PM

The same could be said of ACF's, particularly because the only reason to stay in fighter past level two is ACF's and substitution levels. Stll, Karnith's tripping build didn't seem to use them, so it doesn't matter much.
I should probably say that had I remembered at the time that Overpowering Strike also doubled damage on AoOs, I totally would have shuffled feats around to take that at Fighter 16, and probably lost Mobility and Side Step in favor of Evasive Reflexes, with only a minor loss in functionality.

EDIT: Also, not sure I mentioned it, but at least one of my builds was created with the assumption that the Skilled City Dweller ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) was on the table.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 03:31 PM

You know Pickford did one of those tests before, and kept breaking rules throughout the test and ignoring the DM's adjudication and the metagaming and rules complaints about his character's behavior that people raised?
Yeah, I keep alluding to that, but I don't know if anyone here was also here for that. I'm mostly trying to push things back towards the feat replacement thing, for the purposes of everyone's sanity. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284572) is the thread that I was referring to, so you guys should probably read it if you want to persist in this plan. It tells of a group of forum goers whose hubris outstripped their reason. Perhaps Anya attained victory in the end, but it was truly a pyrrhic victory, as it came at a great cost to our sanity. Reaching through the annals of the past, one could likely find further discarded wreckage of thoughts half conceived and dreams half dreamt. We sought a world where logic was our guiding light, and found chaos in its place.

Somensjev

2013-07-05, 03:43 PM

Yeah, I keep alluding to that, but I don't know if anyone here was also here for that. I'm mostly trying to push things back towards the feat replacement thing, for the purposes of everyone's sanity. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284572) is the thread that I was referring to, so you guys should probably read it if you want to persist in this plan. It tells of a group of forum goers whose hubris outstripped their reason. Perhaps Anya attained victory in the end, but it was truly a pyrrhic victory, as it came at a great cost to our sanity. Reaching through the annals of the past, one could likely find further discarded wreckage of thoughts half conceived and dreams half dreamt. We sought a world where logic was our guiding light, and found chaos in its place.

this should be a fun read :smallamused:

on topic: i think a lot of the feats that have to do with AoO are quite useful, not necessary, but useful (i wont even bother trying to suggest a necessary feat, coz i'd rather leave this thread with sanity intact :smallwink: )

eggynack

2013-07-05, 03:49 PM

this should be a fun read :smallamused:

It's alright, if you're into that kinda thing. We mostly just went around in circles forever, arguing about utterly pointless things, until the thread became locked. It was kinda fun, but only to the extent that I naturally enjoy arguing.

Somensjev

2013-07-05, 03:51 PM

It;s alright, if you're into that kinda thing. We mostly just went around in circles forever, arguing about utterly pointless things, until the thread became locked. It was kinda fun, but only to the extent that I naturally enjoy arguing.

i wish i had seen that thread, i would have joined in, i love a good argument, but most of the time i'm just too lazy to reply to them

Big Fau

2013-07-05, 04:56 PM

To keep it simple, no magic items, only mundane. :smallsmile:

And for further simplicity: Fighter 20, no ACFs, no other classes. No substitution etc...

Just feats, elite array.

Human Fighter 20 with the Elite array, no ACFs, no multiclassing? Sure, I can do that. No flaws, but I'd do it on one condition: Only 1st party published material (no KoK, Dragonlance, or Dragon/Dungeon Magazine material, counting the Dragon Compendium as 3rd party). Basically anything Eberron, Faerun, and WotC's generic stuff.

Human Fighter 20

Ability scores: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Ability score increases: Dex +1, Str +2, Con +2
Final Ability scores: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8

Feats:

1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Human: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
Fighter 2: Improved Trip
3rd: Deft Opportunist
Fighter 4 (+1 Con): Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 6: Karmic Strike
6th: Midnight Dodge
Fighter 8 (+1 Con): Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) (Prereq for Vae School)
9th: Vae School
Fighter 10: Improved Disarm
Fighter 12: Martial Study (Foehammer)
12th (+1 Dex): Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
Fighter 14: Stand Still
15th: Animal Devotion
Fighter 16 (+1 Str): Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
Fighter 18: Power Attack
18th: Bonus Essentia (+2 due to Shape Soulmeld)
Fighter 20 (+1 Str): Defensive Sweep

While not a devoted Lockdown build, it can become one very easily (swap out Shape Soulmeld, Animal Devotion, Weapon Focus, and Vae School for more appropriate feats).

Since this guy (hereafter referred to as Craig) can remain in Thicket of Blades indefinitely, he never needs to spend more than one Swift action/day to initiate the stance (leaving his Swift open for Animal Devotion, allowing him to Fly or get a +8 Enhancement bonus to Str for one minute). Essentia is always invested in the Mauling Guantlets (granting him a +4 bonus on Strength checks), not in Midnight Dodge. Also, Midnight Dodge qualifies him for Karmic Strike (RAW, it's in the feat).

His opening assault is to move up, Foehammer them, then activate Karmic Strike. If the foe was flat-footed (due to losing Init, which is a fat chance as-is), Vae School kicks in on Foehammer and he gets a free Trip attempt (modifier is +15, +11 if he chooses to fly instead of increasing his Str). Any time they provoke an AoO (which he can take up to 4/round), he uses Improved Trip or Improved Disarm. If they are standing up from prone, he uses Improved Disarm (if they have a weapon) and tries to keep denying them actions. Smart enemies will just attack him unarmed or while prone (provoking an AoO if Karmic Strike triggers). Even if they take a 5ft step he gets an AoO, and not moving provokes another one (from Defensive Sweep)

His attack rolls and damage output varies depending on what he does with Animal Devotion. If he chooses to buff his Str, it's 28/23/18/15 (+4 on AoOs, prone enemies take a -4 penalty on attacks and AC), if not it's 24/19/14/11. Damage output is 2d4+10+Power Attack (if any, usually a -4 or so for a +6) (+2d6 on Foehammer).

So his damage output is crap, but that isn't the point of the build. He's focused on extra attacks from AoOs and Improved Trip. Total he can make upwards of 9 attacks in a single round (3 normal, 1 trip attempt, 1 free from Improved Trip, 4 AoOs) with the attack bonuses of +28/+23/+18/+15/+28 (against a prone enemy, effectively a +32)/+32/+32/+32/+32. If the enemy chooses to stay prone while provoking AoOs, the last 4 are effectively a +36 each.

If the attack bonus on a single attack is higher than +25, Craig uses Power Attack for a -X penalty (X= however much it takes to lower the attack bonus back to +25). Since it is a spiked chain, he gets +2X on the resulting damage.

Pickford

2013-07-05, 09:13 PM

Have to disagree about Dragon Compendium, it's a WoTC licensed product. Says so right on the back.

And, could you provide the benefits/pre-reqs from the non-core/complete stuff (seeing as I'm unfamiliar with the niche materials)?

Human Fighter 20
Ability scores: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Ability score increases: Str +3, Con +2
Final ability scores: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8

Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Human: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 2: Improved Grapple
3rd: Improved Sunder
Fighter 4 (+1 Str): Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Fighter 6: Combat Brute
6th: Martial Study (Burning Blade)
Fighter 8 (+1 Str): Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
9th: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
Fighter 10: Cleave
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
12th (+1 Str): Great Cleave
Fighter 14: Slashing Flurry
15th: Defensive Sweep
Fighter 16 (+1 Con): Martial Stance (Holocaust Cloak)
Fighter 18: Weapon Supremacy (Greatsword)
18th: Martial Study (Firesnake)
Fighter 20 (+1 Con): Martial Study (Leaping Flame)

So...what are the proposed fight?

edits to fix feat typos (thank you Fau/Eggy)

eggynack

2013-07-05, 09:43 PM

Pickford

2013-07-06, 01:39 AM

eggynack

2013-07-06, 01:44 AM

If we had VoP we couldn't use the weapons we picked. (Martial and Exotic, respectively) as it limits us to Simple weapons...the thought did cross my mind however, though I think I'd have to swap greatsword in that case for maybe a spear, swap out a few feats and just throw them.
I was partially joking, because that'd mostly take us even further from the choices that actual folks make in actual games. Longspear probably would be the best option though, given that it's two handed and has reach. The lack of tripping is a thing though.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 01:55 AM

If we had VoP we couldn't use the weapons we picked. (Martial and Exotic, respectively) as it limits us to Simple weapons...the thought did cross my mind however, though I think I'd have to swap greatsword in that case for maybe a spear, swap out a few feats and just throw them.

Only classes aren't completely hobbled by VoP, druid, incarnate, and totemist (though its still not a good choice). You are already neutering your guy with weapon supremacy, lets not remove his bones too.

eggynack

2013-07-06, 02:04 AM

Only classes aren't completely hobbled by VoP, druid, incarnate, and totemist (though its still not a good choice). You are already neutering your guy with weapon supremacy, lets not remove his bones too.
I mean, you literally have zero items. The only downside is the lack of martial and exotic weapons. If VoP is still bad, even in that situation, that's pretty amusing to me.

Big Fau

2013-07-06, 02:13 AM

@ Big Fau: It looks like you have improved disarm twice. You have it once at fighter 10, and once at fighter 14. That's about two more improved disarms than I'd have in the build, but that's just my preference. Anyways, what is the point of testing the value of feats, if their abilities don't reflect true game situations? It doesn't really make much sense. Also also, both of these builds should probably have VoP, given that they don't have WBL for some reason. This is kinda pointless, is what I'm saying. I do side with Pickford on the Dragon Compendium thing though. It seems to be an officially first party book.

Thanks for the spot check, and it looks like Pickford made the same mistake (Martial Study: Burning Blade twice).

As for the Dragon Compendium topic, why? Neither of our builds are using material from it (then again, the same can be said for Eberron and Forgotten Realms material).

Sources used: Magic of Incarnum, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, Drow of the Underdark, Player's Handbook 2.

Prereqs:

Deft Opportunist: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, CAdv
Midnight Dodge: Con 13, Dex 13, MoI
Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets): Con 13, MoI
Karmic Strike: Dex 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge (Dodge requirement met via Midnight Dodge)
Vae School: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain or Whip), BAB +7, DotU
Animal Devotion: No prereqs, CChamp
Martial Study (Foehammer): Initiator level 3rd (met by virtue of ECL)
Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades): Any Devoted Spirit maneuver, Initiator Level 5th (met by Martial Study: Foehammer and ECL)
Stand Still: Str 13, XPH
Defensive Sweep: BAB +15, PH2

As for a replacement for the second instance of Improved Disarm, I'll probably just bump Stand Still down to that slot and free up another generic feat (I'll make it Bonus Essentia, to get another +4 bonus on the Trip/Disarm attempts).

Edit: Regarding VoP, I'd change some of my build if I had to include VoP. Namely, I'd remove the Mauling Gauntlets, Vae School, and a couple of other feats to gain Superior Unarmed Strike (since I all ready have IUS for another feat) and change up the ability scores so I can get Hidden Talent (Expansion) and Wild Talent instead of Animal Devotion.