Tippyverse DnD VS Tippyverse Potterverse

[Xar Zarath]

As you can tell by the title, this is about what happens when the tippyverse versions of DnD and harry potter collide. Somehow potterverse wizards discover a new world or DnD Wizards scry on a new world to conquer.

I would like to see the logical uses of magic on both sides as they try to conquer each other.

DnD: Typical Tippyverse, cities under Epic Wizards rule, wilderness in between. Say about a dozen cities with a few hundred low-level Wizards, a few score or so mid to high level Wizard and only a handful(12) Epic Wizards,
Epic Spellcasting allowed but try not to use shenanigans( ie Pun-Pun, gate abuse, Candle of Invocation etc), Spell Point System allowed to match Potterverse casting power, and Epic Wizards do not see eye to eye( Just because they are conquering a world does not mean they cant get rid of a rival)

Potterverse:set after Book 4, Voldemort is alive, wizards/witches using abilities to full competency, try not to use timeturner shenanigans, Muggles can work together with them but other than that still oblivious (secrecy act) to wizarding world

Hope this thread sees some good use:smallbiggrin:

[CRtwenty]

I think HP magic would win in sheer numbers. Their magic is slightly less powerful at the high end (and uses way too many Rays), but every one of them is effectively a mid level Sorcerer with unlimited spells.

[Flickerdart]

Harry Potter wizards are basically Warlocks - unlimited uses of frankly mediocre spells, and all the good stuff is done with magic items. Even a single 20th level wizard could tear apart their entire community with Astral Projected Ice Assassins and what have you while sitting 100% safe inside of his Genesis'd demiplane. It wouldn't even have to be fast-time because Harry Potter magic doesn't have planar travel.

And if they manage to kill the real him somehow, Contingent Revivify. HP magic can't even bring people back from the dead.

[Feint's End]

Well to be honest .... In a Tippyverse the HP world would get obliterated within a day or less. Just cause the shenanigans (completely without epic spellcasting) will win. Infinite summoning? Yes please.
Under the assumption of course that it would come to a war of worlds.

edit: I agree with Flickerdart. One Wizard could (probably without sweating) win alone

[Der_DWSage]

Gonna have to agree with Flickerdart-there's just too many weaknesses the HP universe would have to shore up to come close.

-The wands are breakable, and they can't cast without a wand. Hello, fire spells.
-All HP wizards have to point and cast. There's way too many spells they don't have that would screw with their line of sight.
-A single Disjunction from a single Tippy Wizard destroys half of Hogwarts. And then he casts a second one.
-Shadesteel golems. HP universe has no way of dealing with Shadesteel golems, and that's a huge component of Tippyverse.
-HP universe might have 'Prevent Teleportation,' but Tippyverse uses Wish to teleport instead. No way of getting them out once they get in!
-Can we say 'Mass Dominate Person?' Last I checked, it was a forbidden spell for the HP universe to use it on a SINGLE person, and every Tippyverse wizard has Mind Blank anyway.


Even with HP wizards set on 'maximum competency,' they lose the arms race. At least, without abusing time turner shenanigans, and even then I'm not entirely sure. Tippyverse Wizards plan contingencies for their contingencies, and just changing one detail probably wouldn't be enough. And they have to deal with the fact that their Time Turner risks Disjunction on every go-round.

HP Universe would have to rely on the Tippyverse Wizards being too busy fighting each other to even stand a chance.

[Xar Zarath]

Gonna have to agree with Flickerdart-there's just too many weaknesses the HP universe would have to shore up to come close.

-The wands are breakable, and they can't cast without a wand. Hello, fire spells.
-All HP wizards have to point and cast. There's way too many spells they don't have that would screw with their line of sight.
-A single Disjunction from a single Tippy Wizard destroys half of Hogwarts. And then he casts a second one.
-Shadesteel golems. HP universe has no way of dealing with Shadesteel golems, and that's a huge component of Tippyverse.
-HP universe might have 'Prevent Teleportation,' but Tippyverse uses Wish to teleport instead. No way of getting them out once they get in!
-Can we say 'Mass Dominate Person?' Last I checked, it was a forbidden spell for the HP universe to use it on a SINGLE person, and every Tippyverse wizard has Mind Blank anyway.


Even with HP wizards set on 'maximum competency,' they lose the arms race. At least, without abusing time turner shenanigans, and even then I'm not entirely sure. Tippyverse Wizards plan contingencies for their contingencies, and just changing one detail probably wouldn't be enough. And they have to deal with the fact that their Time Turner risks Disjunction on every go-round.

HP Universe would have to rely on the Tippyverse Wizards being too busy fighting each other to even stand a chance.

What if the DnD Wizards were fighting one another?

[Aegis013]

What if the DnD Wizards were fighting one another?

They send a handful of simalcra, ice assassins, or mind raped (slightly lesser) Wizards to dominate the HPverse as a secondary objective. They don't need to put real resources towards it to at least clear out any potential nuisances from the HPverse so that gathering resources will be easier later.

Edit: I'm not sure what resources exist in the HPverse that would be interesting enough to get the Tippyverse Wizards to even do that though. The Time Turner is only about as powerful as some of the time bending shenanigans already available in 3.5.

[TypoNinja]

Harry Potter wizards are basically Warlocks - unlimited uses of frankly mediocre spells, and all the good stuff is done with magic items.

I've never thought about it before but this is a frighteningly good summation of the HP universe magic system, its a lot of fairly standard and unimpressive magic, that is very spammable. Backed up by utterly huge numbers of wondrous items.

[Darth Stabber]

Shatter pretty much solves any confrontation with HP wizards, to even hope to compete they would have to develop wandless magic PDQ, and then teach it to everyone. Even dispel magic is a solution that most wizards prepare at least one of on an average day, turning off all of those shiny magical toys. And don't forget that 3.5 tippyverse has clerics, druids, and non-casters. An AMF necklace on a barbarian will leave even dumbledore as so much reddish goo on the wall.

Also salient point, assuming that they haven't been hunted to extinction by wizards for crafting xp, 3.5 dragons put hp dragons to shame, hyper intelligent, bigger, and casters I their own right, they will make their opposite number extinct in a hurry.

[Twilightwyrm]

I'd echo what's being said here as basically accurate, assuming war broke out between the two universes. If, however, you are looking for something more akin to how the two types of magic would interact if places in the opposite respective universe, google "Harry Potter and the Natural 20". It is quite an enjoyable (and hilarious!) read.

[MirddinEmris]

Well, first, we need to make some decisions about how exactly magic from different worlds will interact with one another. For example, while the effect of the HP spells seems unimpressive for an experienced dnd player, they appears to be impossible to resist unless you managed to cast a counterspell. So, if when interacting with dnd HP spells would work with same mechanic (i.e. they WILL have saves, SR and such) then dnd mages will have undeniable upperhand. But if they'll work like in books...Proteus will defend you from almost anything targeted directly at you and some stuff that don't, while against Avada Kedavra there isn't any defense barring touch AC and plot armor (well, maybe immunity to death effect would work). Spells in HP universe less potent but much more universal then those from Vancian spellcasting.

IMHO, hp universe will have an upperhand in magic items, since they have really potent ones (like going back through time, yes).

[Der_DWSage]

Lemme know when someone figures out how HP characters will handle even one of Tippy's magic-immune shadesteel golems. Then we'll talk about them being able to handle the intelligent wizards behind them.

[Emmerask]

Lemme know when someone figures out how HP characters will handle even one of Tippy's magic-immune shadesteel golems. Then we'll talk about them being able to handle the intelligent wizards behind them.

The thing is that it is an assumption that d&d magic immunity has any effect at all on HP magic (same goes for amf) :smallwink:

Overall while HP mages have about a billion small utility spells and pretty much unlimited spellslots d&d magic is just too open ended power wise (ie badly designed), Potterverse doesnt stand a chance ^^

[Der_DWSage]

I think we can agree that a Shadesteel Golem is going to be a major stumbling block even without the immunity, though. Every 12-30 seconds it sends out a pulse of dark magic that will likely kill all humans within its radius? Huge amounts of HP?

However, I will admit to one stumbling block I hadn't given the strongest thought to. Hermoine + Voldemort working together, with a time turner and the elder wand. Infinite chances to make things work, and Voldemort's already essentially a Lich. Hermoine could theoretically improve the process.

That would at least give Tippyverse wizards pause. I think those two are the only ones Tippyverse Wizards would respect.

[Togo]

Bind with plants, ward against it, get a giant to pick it up and use it as a backscratcher, trap it in a time or space bubble or loop, push it through a 'doorway of death', bind it using reinforced titanium chains wielded by a squad of schoolchildren on brooms, or let it wander around, totally unable to enter or even perceive the magical subspaces that much of the HP universe is based around until the muggles call in an airstrike.

How would a Tippyverse epic wizard defend against wizards with an unforgivable curse that grants them control of their body, who are trained to dodge spells, who can counter spells as they are cast, and who can cast at a conservative estimate maybe four times as fast as Tippyverse wizards?

It's just possible that this kind of contest comes down to how you judge the two to interact. If you assume that the Tippyverse wizards can weild all their usual powers with all their usual effectiveness in the new world, then of course they'll win. If you assume the same of the HP wizards, then of course they'll win. To do a proper comparison you have to give both sides all the normal advantages they are used to having. That means that Shadesteel golems are immune to HP magic, but it also means that HP wizards, if faced with a wish spell, can simply counter or duck.

[Aharon]

Plugging in a rather good fanfic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20

It was compared to some of the weaker Terry Pratchett novels by a reader, a sentiment I agree with.

In this fanfic, the interactions are weird - Potterverse broooms aren't recognized as magic items by Detect Magic, for example.

If we assume Potterverse runs on DnD rules, the WWW-assessment (Warlocks With Wondrous items) is true. If we assume it doesn't, then Potterverse gains significant advantage by, for example, not being limited by Initiative order. It takes me about 1.5 seconds to say "Avada Kedavra"...

[Fouredged Sword]

I say it would come down to divination and travel.

I think that the side that picks the battlefield wins.

Ok, consider this, HP has an unbreakable mind control ability that cannot be resisted that lasts until the death of the caster.

Get within wand distance of one epic wizard, and now the HP universe has epic spellcasting.

[Emmerask]

But it can be resisted given enough time depending on your willpower^^

[Arcanist]

*Snip*

... So... Basically this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX39RDxA9dM)?


Get within wand distance of one epic wizard, and now the HP universe has epic spellcasting.

I'd like to ask the question of what SANE Epic Spellcaster doesn't use Mind Blank? Better yet, what Spellcaster doesn't use Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law to prevent themselves from getting mind controlled? :smallconfused:

[Raineh Daze]

What epic spellcaster has a bad will save, anyway?

This isn't getting started on the fact that a level twenty wizard is still twice as good in a brawl as the real world's best fighters. Magic stick + buffs. They wouldn't even need to use any of the destructive spells, just go around whacking HP wizards over the head.

Also, was reading that fanfic the other day. Interesting coincidence. Still not sure why he hasn't made some sort of CON-booster yet, given squishiness.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am sure it's on his list, right after making an anti mind control item for everyone who matters. He has summons to tank for him, when it comes down to that.

[Raineh Daze]

I am sure it's on his list, right after making an anti mind control item for everyone who matters. He has summons to tank for him, when it comes down to that.

But he's already done all those. :p

Also, how many times has Milo gone into negative HP or 0 HP, already? Whatever of Health +4 would almost double his HP. XD

[undead hero]

What makes you think D&D wizards haven't already invaded and are rulling the place?

In one of the movies a guy is at the inn and is reading Steven Hawkings and using wandless magic to stir his soup or whatever..

Big V can't do that crap.
Harry can't do that.
Big D couldn't do it either.

Reason? He is a high level D&D wizard sent to keep their sheep in line.

(There was a buzzfeed article about this guy Lol)

[Snowbluff]

Before anyone forgets, I'd like to remind you all that the first time Harry used magic, he did not use a wand and he did not use any components. Later, wizards are shown using magic without wands and.or components. Not that I think HP wizards would win, just that you guys need to get your facts straight.

[Raineh Daze]

Before anyone forgets, I'd like to remind you all that the first time Harry used magic, he did not use a wand and he did not use any components. Later, wizards are shown using magic without wands and.or components. Not that I think HP wizards would win, just that you guys need to get your facts straight.

The problem is that all the decent spells they have seem to require wands and aiming.

Mass Hold Person, anyone? Or even Grease? :smallbiggrin:

[CRtwenty]

Before anyone forgets, I'd like to remind you all that the first time Harry used magic, he did not use a wand and he did not use any components. Later, wizards are shown using magic without wands and.or components. Not that I think HP wizards would win, just that you guys need to get your facts straight.

They can use magic without wands, they just aren't very good at controlling it or generating very large effects. The wand serves as a focus.

We see them practicing what is essentially the Silent Spell feat in one of the books though, I'd assume a badass enough HP Wizard could do all his stuff without a wand. Which in theory could allow him to essentially cast an infinite number of Silent, Still spells.

[undead hero]

Before anyone forgets, I'd like to remind you all that the first time Harry used magic, he did not use a wand and he did not use any components. Later, wizards are shown using magic without wands and.or components. Not that I think HP wizards would win, just that you guys need to get your facts straight.

Solo sorcerers by magic birth (when they gain their powers) then magically lose the no wand abilities and become warlocks?

Or mass suggestion or whatever (plot) "y'all need need wands to cast" was cast sometime after harry did that by the guy I mentioned before?

[Arcanist]

Solo sorcerers by magic birth (when they gain their powers) then magically lose the no wand abilities and become warlocks?

Or mass suggestion or whatever (plot) "y'all need need wands to cast" was cast sometime after harry did that by the guy I mentioned before?

I'd imagine they would start off as Sorcerer 1 or Warlock 1 (If they are of some Wizardly birth, otherwise they start off with a level in Commoner or Rogue or any non-magical class) then they take a level in Wizard until 4th level and then they progress as an Ultimate Magus.

[Threadnaught]

-The wands are breakable, and they can't cast without a wand. Hello, fire spells.
-All HP wizards have to point and cast. There's way too many spells they don't have that would screw with their line of sight.

The wands act as a focus, making it easier to cast the spells they want to cast at any given time.

They can cast based on their emotions, silently and even without a wand. Lacking these components just makes the casting harder to control.
Yep, casting without a Wand, speaking or doing any fancy crap is basically metamagic.


Other than that, the Wizards in HP are hidden from the mundanes. In TV, the Wizards rule the world openly.


Kinda obvious what would happen in a direct confrontation. Shadesteel Golems and several outsiders would pour into London, people would find themselves dominated and forced into fighting the nearest person shooting at the otherworldly invaders, planes would be directed into the ground by dragons much larger than anything HP knows.

When the entire world bands together in a single army to fight off the invading Wizards, they'll begin to starve from the abnormal weather (maybe from Fimbulwinter) long before their enemy and any traitors, due to the invading Wizards' unlimited supply of resources. And that's if the D&D Wizards take things slow.

Harry Potter, Tom Riddle and Albus Percival Wolfrick Brian Dumbledore would all have their minds transformed into a little something to help the invaders convince (or even "convince") the native magic using population to lower arms and defences. Before being slaughtered.

[Fouredged Sword]

The lord voldermort kills everyone because he Horicruxed the voyager plate, and is unkillable. :smallbiggrin: For those who get the reference.

[Raineh Daze]

The lord voldermort kills everyone because he Horicruxed the voyager plate, and is unkillable. :smallbiggrin: For those who get the reference.

Oh, no, he's still very much killable, it's just that actually making him, you know, deader than dead would be surprisingly annoying. :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Other than that, the Wizards in HP are hidden from the mundanes. In TV, the Wizards rule the world openly.

Clarification: In the TV there is only one Wizard (or there were multiple Wizards, but they largely abandoned the idea of existing peacefully in the same world and left) who silently rules the world hidden off in a Demiplane that cannot be accessed. If there are other Wizards they are completely incapable of casting any spell that would find the Wizard-In-The-Sky or harm him/her. Awakened Factotum Shadesteel Golems patrol the streets for rogue Wizards who happen to threaten the Wizard-In-The-Sky's rule or power, citizens are indoctrinated into believing that they live in a magically suppressive society that favors technology (Artificers) and inherently magical entities (Warlocks) to perform their task.

Think 1984 meets D&D with a darker utopian style to it and you've effectively got the Tippyverse from how Tippy describes it to everyone when they ask (Actually, I expect him to arrive fairly shortly to correct me). In the Tippyverse, there is no hunger, no disease; It is a post scarcity society where people are expected to ignorantly serve a master that they do not know exist and is monitoring their every actions... My god this setting sounds pretty cool :smallconfused:

A conflict between D&D [TV] and HP would be more subtle since the Wizard-In-The-Sky would most likely prefer to conquer his new world with more subterfuge than an all-out attack, lest he run the risk of unifying his enemies against him. :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

Characters and important figures from the PV would find themselves wished naked into a self resetting trap of mindrape, turned into loyal servants with all their old memories and skills, and wished back to exactly where they came from.

Double points if the TV wizards move the PV characters back in time enough to get them to simply blink in and out of existence for a instant.

[Togo]

Characters from the Tippyverse would find themselves subject to a prophecy that foretells their eventual defeat at the hand of a small orphan, despite any precautions they may take or any obvious power differential. Bonus points if this involves the Tippyverse slowly sliding into factional politics as people start to use their sympathy for the small orphan to break away from the rule of the wizard in the sky and go independent.

That's the power of plot, you can tell any story you want.

How about this one: The TV invade, using their wish engines and multiple spell-resetting wish traps, and initially devastate the HP forces. However, not understanding the delicate balance between wizard and muggle, they bring magic out into the open, and the muggles secretly join forces with the HP forces. Together they launch a daring raid to capture a wish engine, and then replicate in a secret lab. A short amount of high-powered mass-product later, the earth is in an arms race using the TV's principle weapon, the wish engine, but with an infrastructure and industrial mindset alien to the TV invaders. Shortly thereafter, an army of 100 ft high unkillable (voyager horcrux enable) cybernetic monster robots armed with computer driven wish machine guns capable of algorithmically targeting over a 1000 wishes a second backwards through time to a point identified chaotically using HP-style non-linear divination. The wishes, powered by a replica elder wand interface, are not counterable. These robots also self-duplicate via time turner technology, exponentially filling the target area with endlessly multiplying duplicates of themselves. They systemically reformat the entire TV universe so it never occurred in the first place, achieving total annihilation of the entire crystal sphere system in a little under 0.46 seconds, destroying the crystal sphere, severing all planar connections and rendering the entire HP universe forever unreacheable even by epic magic or divine power.

Of course, we could let the TV people do something cool too, but where's the fun in that?

[Raineh Daze]

Characters from the Tippyverse would find themselves subject to a prophecy that foretells their eventual defeat at the hand of a small orphan, despite any precautions they may take or any obvious power differential. Bonus points if this involves the Tippyverse slowly sliding into factional politics as people start to use their sympathy for the small orphan to break away from the rule of the wizard in the sky and go independent.

That's the power of plot, you can tell any story you want.

How about this one: The TV invade, using their wish engines and multiple spell-resetting wish traps, and initially devastate the HP forces. However, not understanding the delicate balance between wizard and muggle, they bring magic out into the open, and the muggles secretly join forces with the HP forces. Together they launch a daring raid to capture a wish engine, and then replicate in a secret lab. A short amount of high-powered mass-product later, the earth is in an arms race using the TV's principle weapon, the wish engine, but with an infrastructure and industrial mindset alien to the TV invaders. Shortly thereafter, an army of 100 ft high unkillable (voyager horcrux enable) cybernetic monster robots armed with computer driven wish machine guns capable of algorithmically targeting over a 1000 wishes a second backwards through time to a point identified chaotically using HP-style non-linear divination. The wishes, powered by a replica elder wand interface, are not counterable. These robots also self-duplicate via time turner technology, exponentially filling the target area with endlessly multiplying duplicates of themselves. They systemically reformat the entire TV universe so it never occurred in the first place, achieving total annihilation of the entire crystal sphere system in a little under 0.46 seconds, destroying the crystal sphere, severing all planar connections and rendering the entire HP universe forever unreacheable even by epic magic or divine power.

Of course, we could let the TV people do something cool too, but where's the fun in that?

I don't think any of this really gets past the issue of 'can only be killed by themselves'.

Also, I don't think muggles have the capability to reproduce high CL D&D magic items, so the entire scenario fails miserably (not to mention banking on the extremely unreliable HP divination)

[Arcanist]

Characters from the Tippyverse would find themselves subject to a prophecy that foretells their eventual defeat at the hand of a small orphan, despite any precautions they may take or any obvious power differential.

Clarification: The Wizard-In-The-Sky would never allow such a prophecy to become common knowledge and the moment he comes aware of him would send an Ice Assassin of himself (The Wizard-In-The-Sky LMD) to his home to slaughter him, his friends, his family and anyone else he happens to care about (Failure being an impossibility since he can just keep sending more and more, hell if the Wizard-In-The-Sky wishes he can travel back in time and just prevent the poor S.O.B. from ever existing). Getting away with a Lightning Bolt scar (Actually disguised as a Symbol of Pain trap that triggers whenever he tries to cast a spell and auto-resets) will be a blessing compared to what he does to that little boy gets (most likely an eternity of torture in some far-realm prison).

Never underestimate the power of... Power! :smallamused:

[Mystic Muse]

Ok, consider this, HP has an unbreakable mind control ability that cannot be resisted that lasts until the death of the caster.


Umm...no. In fact, harry resisted this ability in his fourth year at Hogwarts, so clearly you get a will save, so mind blank should make you immune, and even if it doesn't, the rather high will saves of D&D-verse wizards means they could in fact resist it.

Plus, this is assuming the potterverse wizards can even get within range of the D&D-verse wizards, which wouldn't be the case with Tippy-verse wizards, since they're all so paranoid (And rightfully so) they basically send proxies and stuff to take care of things rather than risk it themselves.

[Fouredged Sword]

A pair of goblins from TV steal all objects in the PV universe through free action epic slight of hand. Yes, even that.

The PV wizards now lack wands, have a nice day.

[Spuddles]

D&D magic works very differently from magic in most settings, HP included.

D&D magic, due to the rules heavy nature of the system, and the rules lawyers that play it, is more like technology than "magic". Magic in D&D is a known quantity- predictable, without risk, and easily usable. The tippyverse is an entire campaign setting designed around the rules, whereas most rule sets are designed around a campaign setting.

Not only is D&D magic over 9000, there's no risk with turning the dials past 11. You can't really do that in most other settings. Even in D&D, every setting has some civilization going full retard with magic, for instance, the Suel (greyhawk), Thassilonians (golarion), Xendrik (eberron), and Netherese (Forgotten Realms).

[Hecuba]

The principle advantages PV magic has over D&D magic are:

No Spells/day limitation
Early access to specific abilities corresponding to powerful (but not extremely powerful) spells in D&D
Seemingly easier access to item creation feats without XP costs (though the access function may simply be a social tendency)


While this would give them a significant advantage over any of the relevant published example characters, all of these advantages are effectively available through sufficient optimization in D&D. Likely on the same character.

And the Tippyverse is explicitly optimized.

[Arcanist]

Even in D&D, every setting has some civilization going full retard with magic, for instance, the Suel (greyhawk), Thassilonians (golarion), Xendrik (eberron), and Netherese (Forgotten Realms).

HEY! :smallfurious: ... That... Is... Not false in the slightest :smallfrown:

[Tulya]

Has Rowling ever actually set out sufficiently detailed rules of magic in the Potterverse that you can take out to their logical extreme and generate a Tippyverse?

My impression from the books is that the rules of magic are a hodgepodge of arbitrary and sometimes inconsistent rule 0 rulings combined with some general principles that absolutely necessitate DM adjudication to use - much like creating novel spells and magic items not strictly based off of existing spells in D&D.
That, and there are several major implications that the perspectives of magic presented in the book are extremely anthropocentric, and not necessarily fundamental rules of the magic.

[hamishspence]

Not only is D&D magic over 9000, there's no risk with turning the dials past 11. You can't really do that in most other settings. Even in D&D, every setting has some civilization going full retard with magic, for instance, the Suel (greyhawk), Thassilonians (golarion), Xendrik (eberron), and Netherese (Forgotten Realms).
The Netherese weren't the only ones- I think the Imaskari might also qualify.

[Emmerask]

Has Rowling ever actually set out sufficiently detailed rules of magic in the Potterverse that you can take out to their logical extreme and generate a Tippyverse?

My impression from the books is that the rules of magic are a hodgepodge of arbitrary and sometimes inconsistent rule 0 rulings combined with some general principles that absolutely necessitate DM adjudication to use - much like creating novel spells and magic items not strictly based off of existing spells in D&D.
That, and there are several major implications that the perspectives of magic presented in the book are extremely anthropocentric, and not necessarily fundamental rules of the magic.

So for all intents and purposes its almost identical to the 3.5 magic system ? :smallbiggrin:

[Spuddles]

The Netherese weren't the only ones- I think the Imaskari might also qualify.

I'm not too familiar with FR, but there are some other empires that were crushed by their own magic. At least one other one in Golarion, Greyhawk, and Eberron, but I cant remember their names. I am sure FR has a couple others that escape me. I use Lost Empires of FR all the time for OP builds but rarely look at the fluf :/

Sauron & Voldemort also kind of do themselves in with magic. I am sure tvtropes has like 12 variations of this cliche and all the animes it's ever shown up in.

[Arcanist]

The Netherese weren't the only ones- I think the Imaskari might also qualify.

Actually the Imaskari just enslaved a group of people from across the planes and severed their connections to their Gods which caused them to become the focus of those very same Gods who asked Ao if they can come in and just clear that problem right up, which he was totally down for since he was sick and tired of having to listen to their prayers day in and out.

Honestly, the entire catastrophe behind the Imaskari is because Ao was being a lazy ass and didn't want to teach the new guys in his crystal sphere how divinity works in these parts, so technically it was just a nice cool piece of 24-karots of bad luck :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

HEY! :smallfurious: ... That... Is... Not false in the slightest :smallfrown:

I'm... not sure what the frowny faces are for?

[Raineh Daze]

Nobody beats Netheril in sheer magical overkill, though.

Starting with all their cities being built out of mountaintops they hacked off and made fly. Then there's the mythalar in general...

Also, I think Karsus was level 40 something. Seriously, what.

[hamishspence]

Honestly, the entire catastrophe behind the Imaskari is because Ao was being a lazy ass and didn't want to teach the new guys in his crystal sphere how divinity works in these parts, so technically it was just a nice cool piece of 24-karots of bad luck :smalltongue:

The result being a massive showdown between gods and Imaskari Artificers- I think some gods were killed in the process.

Even after they won, some Imaskari escaped into the Underdark.

Other magocratic collapses- I think the Ruamatheri Empire were destroyed by Kossuth after they summoned him to destroy their enemies. One group of Raumathari survivors became the Witches of Rashemen.

It seems rather common in FR for magic-heavy empires to fall, and the survivors to build new magic-heavy kingdoms.

[Khatoblepas]

Before you even start to think about the Tippyverse invading anyone, you've got to think: What's in it for them? Sure, they can take over the Potterverse, but the most powerful magic items in the Potterverse are, what, an At-will item of Teleport Through Time?

Please, everyone in the Tippyverse is already hooked up to Mindrape traps that make them absolutely blissful and then go through a trap of Distilled Joy (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/distilled-joy--105/), constantly while a Planar Bubble emulates the sustaining environment of Elysium, while rocks are being Polymorph Any Objected into people so that they can be ritually sacrificed by sentient golems with ludicrous amounts of Knowledge (religion). Any object the world leader desires is his to command, and any creature is his to create. There is nothing that can stand against him, so why bother doing it? The Potterverse has nothing he wants. His every wish is already reality, and his every whim satisfied.

Basically, the Sky Wizard has already lost, since there's no reason for him to do anything at all.

[Emmerask]

Most powerful item imo is the luck potion.

[Arcanist]

I'm... not sure what the frowny faces are for?

It is no secret that I:


Like magic
Like the Netherese and the other ancient cultures in the Realms


While I would try to argue that they didn't bring it upon themselves, they did whether they were aware of it or not. It's like every single Empire (fictional or otherwise) can only go so high before burning itself out and with the Netherese, they achieved the ultimate irony in trying to gain mastery over magic and inadvertently stripping themselves of it (momentarily).


Nobody beats Netheril in sheer magical overkill, though.

Starting with all their cities being built out of mountaintops they hacked off and made fly. Then there's the mythalar in general...

Also, I think Karsus was level 40 something. Seriously, what.

Karsus was a 41st level Arcanist specialized in Mentalism. Yes, one of the most powerful known spellcasters of all time fought with Illusions, Enchantments and, quite obviously, Divinations :smallamused:

I think it is fair to say that I am wrong in the statement that the Netherese shot themselves in the foot... Karsus shot Netheril in the foot and the bullet ricocheted and blew his head off...


The result being a massive showdown between gods and Imaskari Artificers- I think some gods were killed in the process.

Even after they won, some Imaskari escaped into the Underdark.

Other magocratic collapses- I think the Ruamatheri Empire were destroyed by Kossuth after they summoned him to destroy their enemies. One group of Raumathari survivors became the Witches of Rashemen.

It seems rather common in FR for magic-heavy empires to fall, and the survivors to build new magic-heavy kingdoms.

It is a common theme in a lot of fictions for new empires to be born from new empires. Sooner or later an up and coming nation will announce itself as an Empire and everything will be great and dandy for a while and then everything will crash. Life is like a Rollercoaster. Even if it is a fictional life, this rule still applies.


Basically, the Sky Wizard has already lost, since there's no reason for him to do anything at all.

I don't know about you, but in the business we call that "Winning" :smallconfused:

[unseenmage]

Before you even start to think about the Tippyverse invading anyone, you've got to think: What's in it for them? Sure, they can take over the Potterverse, but the most powerful magic items in the Potterverse are, what, an At-will item of Teleport Through Time?

Please, everyone in the Tippyverse is already hooked up to Mindrape traps that make them absolutely blissful and then go through a trap of Distilled Joy, constantly while a Planar Bubble emulates the sustaining environment of Elysium, while rocks are being Polymorph Any Objected into people so that they can be ritually sacrificed by sentient golems with ludicrous amounts of Knowledge (religion). Any object the world leader desires is his to command, and any creature is his to create. There is nothing that can stand against him, so why bother doing it? The Potterverse has nothing he wants. His every wish is already reality, and his every whim satisfied.

Basically, the Sky Wizard has already lost, since there's no reason for him to do anything at all.

This. Very much this.

You wind up with a Superman vs Goku scenario. Neither side would ever give their all to even fight the other let alone try to obliterate the other.

They're both just cool dudes who've already won in their universe and have good enough sense to not meddle in the universe of others.


Then again Potterverse could try to invade chasing some rumor of a BBEG of theirs who's escaped in that direction. But then not only their lost BBEG but their invading forces would be blissed out and woven into the fold so to speak.

[Flickerdart]

Most powerful item imo is the luck potion.

"Luck can only get you so far, Harry..."

[Emmerask]

It is still the most powerful thing they have, and since it is just potioneering without magic involved (I assume) its something the d&d universe might actually want... the whole potioneering aspect could be interesting in fact.

So there is something wizards might want to learn/steal ie a motif to invade ^^

[Raineh Daze]

Karsus was a 41st level Arcanist specialized in Mentalism. Yes, one of the most powerful known spellcasters of all time fought with Illusions, Enchantments and, quite obviously, Divinations :smallamused:

I think it is fair to say that I am wrong in the statement that the Netherese shot themselves in the foot... Karsus shot Netheril in the foot and the bullet ricocheted and blew his head off...

I think you've understated things. Not 'one of the most powerful known'. I think you can safely remove the 'one of'. :smalltongue:

What really seems to be the problem is that Karsus picked entirely the wrong god to target. Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic? :smallsigh:

[Arcanist]

It is still the most powerful thing they have, and since it is just potioneering without magic involved (I assume) its something the d&d universe might actually want... the whole potioneering aspect could be interesting in fact.

So there is something wizards might want to learn/steal ie a motif to invade ^^

Just capture one guy who knows how to make it, drain the information from his brain, and throw him back while no one being any the wiser.

[Khatoblepas]

It is still the most powerful thing they have, and since it is just potioneering without magic involved (I assume) its something the d&d universe might actually want... the whole potioneering aspect could be interesting in fact.

So there is something wizards might want to learn/steal ie a motif to invade ^^

Greater Invisibility + Plane Shift + Teleport Without Error + Mindrape. No need to invade at all.

(haha, wow, getting that information took less than 5 rounds)

[Flickerdart]

Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic? :smallsigh:
It's probably much easier to do so - you can simply run the spell back to the entity that grants them, instead of having to aim it at another god and possibly have it be defeated by defenses that the current of magic from the Weave doesn't have because it was only ever intended to go one way.

[Darth Stabber]

The lord voldermort kills everyone because he Horicruxed the voyager plate, and is unkillable. :smallbiggrin: For those who get the reference.

So many ways to deal with people well nigh permanantly that don't involve killing them. But now we know why voldemort wanted to take over, he was preparing for the tippyverse's invasion and needed to unify the world under one leader and make the spells he thought would help more well known and ready to go.

[Arcanist]

I think you've understated things. Not 'one of the most powerful known'. I think you can safely remove the 'one of'. :smalltongue:

What really seems to be the problem is that Karsus picked entirely the wrong god to target. Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic? :smallsigh:

If we're going from every known Wizards power at their prime, it would be Vecna since he was once so powerful he actually rewrote reality into a new edition :smalltongue: while Karsus is INCREDIBLY power he is still trumped by Angels, Demons and Gods in terms of power.

Having said that, if there was actually official artwork of Karsus I would most certainly have him as my avatar considering he definitely comes in at number 2 on my favorite spellcasters list (Larloch is #1 to the curious) :smalltongue:

I'd have to agree with Flickerdart in that it might just be easier to root it back to yourself. Taking over the Goddess of Magic's power is effectively giving yourself admin privileges over all Magic on your plane :smalltongue:


So many ways to deal with people well nigh permanantly that don't involve killing them. But now we know why voldemort wanted to take over, he was preparing for the tippyverse's invasion and needed to unify the world under one leader and make the spells he thought would help more well known and ready to go.

... So... Voldemort was like Darth Revan?

[Rubik]

Horcruxes are pretty darned powerful, given they allow you to not-die at will.

[Darth Stabber]

... So... Voldemort was like Darth Revan?

Were I going to write a D&D/harrypotter xover fanfic, that would be the premise.

[hamishspence]

Having said that, if there was actually official artwork of Karsus I would most certainly have him as my avatar considering he definitely comes in at number 2 on my favorite spellcasters list (Larloch is #1 to the curious) :smalltongue:

There's an official pic of him, just after Mystra's died (he appears half-transformed- bloated, red, and lumpy) in Magic of Faerun. Unfortunately that's one of the few books which WOTC didn't put art for up in their Art Archive.

[Spuddles]

Darth Revan?

Every time I see that I read it as "Dark Raven."

[Arcanist]

There's an official pic of him, just after Mystra's died (he appears half-transformed- bloated, red, and lumpy) in Magic of Faerun. Unfortunately that's one of the few books which WOTC didn't put art for up in their Art Archive.

I've seen it and it doesn't exactly give a good image of what he looked like before he broke his hand punching out Mystra. Removing the features, it looks like he was a Balded man, muscles on muscles (might be from the bloating), hairless, a highly defined nose, and just so happy that all of his chin can fit on the page.

[Raineh Daze]

If we're going from every known Wizards power at their prime, it would be Vecna since he was once so powerful he actually rewrote reality into a new edition :smalltongue: while Karsus is INCREDIBLY power he is still trumped by Angels, Demons and Gods in terms of power.

Didn't Karsus basically do the same thing by accidentally turning magic off? Forgot whatever Vecna did. Only that he ended up as a god and seems disinclined to stick to one campaign setting, which is an achievement. XD

Don't really see how he loses to angels or demons, though, excepting things like Demogorgon and Orcus. :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

I've seen it and it doesn't exactly give a good image of what he looked like before he broke his hand punching out Mystra.

Tome of Magic has Karsites- which are descended from him.

Key features that tend to crop up- odd eyes (one blue, one some other colour) straight black or brown hair, a white streak in the hair, a sharp widow's peak, and a small nose and mouth.

[Arcanist]

Didn't Karsus basically do the same thing by accidentally turning magic off? Forgot whatever Vecna did. Only that he ended up as a god and seems disinclined to stick to one campaign setting, which is an achievement. XD

Don't really see how he loses to angels or demons, though, excepting things like Demogorgon and Orcus. :smallconfused:

Karsus didn't screw up reality to the point where editions changed, all he did was destroy an entire nation, kill a Goddess and die. Vecna however Stole the divinity from another God, disrupted an entire plane (destroyed an nation while doing it), escaped the ultimate BBEG planar prison, crash landed in a city whose owner kills Gods for entering it, dominated the city for a few days, conquered all of reality, rewrote it to make himself an Over-Over-Overdeity, only getting defeated by the most deadly force in the universe... Adventurers...


Tome of Magic has Karsites- which are descended from him.

Key features that tend to crop up- odd eyes (one blue, one some other colour) straight black or brown hair, a white streak in the hair, a sharp widow's peak, and a small nose and mouth.

EHHHH I don't think I can, in all fairness, figure which are traits exclusive to Karsus or through eons of breeding.

[Xar Zarath]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.:smallredface:

[Xar Zarath]

I don't really want to quote myself in the post above, but for those who didn't get it, think fluff instead of mechanics DnD Wizards vs HP wizards.
(Best way I can sum my above post:smallredface:)

[Flickerdart]

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.:smallredface:
Plane Shift vs no Plane Shift still wins. When one side can never attack the other, there can only be one outcome.

[Aegis013]

...stuff...

Tippyverse being a post-scarcity society means that a group of Wizards (ie Magic Scientists) can reasonably go through and determine what spells do what, how effective they are (maybe Acid Splash is a really weak form of acid, maybe lightning bolt just doesn't have the oomph that a lightning bolt does from a real storm), and effectively optimize themselves.

Considering that people recognize that this is the source of a huge amount of power (Tippyverse basically being a magocracy, where more magic, used effectively = more power) there are going to be plenty of people who make it their goal in life to use that power at its most potent form and in a most effective manner. Thus you end up with the Wizard-in-the-Sky people refer to, or the group of high casting Wizards who can easily bring down HPverse, if they really wanted to.

There's still not sufficient motivation for them to be concerned about HPverse as best I can tell though.

[unseenmage]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.

I'm sorry but what you're asking for isn't possible. One is a game with mechanics and the other is a series of novels with plots.
D&D 3.x just is not plot driven as a system and so isn't really capable of bringing "RL" to life so to speak.

The average joe of wizards is an optimized wizard. anything less and they're dead. The D&D-verse is just a deadly deadly place to live. All manner of monster and demon, creature and god far outnumber the peoples of D&Dverse; and most of them find people quite tasty to some degree or another.
You just don't get to have a life without first overcoming the very real obstacle of everything being saturated with magic and most of it being out to kill you. At least that's the view I get from the published books, both novels and rulebooks.
Other DMs might run their games differently with more or less lethality, or more or less magic, but the core D&Dverse is just swamped with OP magic and deadly deadly encounters.

Potterverse is a fluffy walk through the woods by comparison. I mean seriously, their scariest forest had one dead guy, some spiders, and some centaurs. And 3 children in plot armor managed to escape all of the above without harm repeatedly.

It's just not a fair fight.

[Arcanist]

I don't really want to quote myself in the post above, but for those who didn't get it, think fluff instead of mechanics DnD Wizards vs HP wizards.
(Best way I can sum my above post:smallredface:)

Fluff and Tippyverse shouldn't actually co-exist in the same sentence. If it is Fluff based D&D Vs HP then you just get two people who have no reason to encounter each other and would most likely just exist for the sake of existing.

Elminster, Mordenkainen, Rasitlin would most likely just meet Dumbledore for tea on the roof of a small brownstone apartment in Brooklyn. All 3, regardless of Alignment wouldn't fight because... Well why would they? They're super-intelligent titans in their own field and thus would not want to fight because in the long run it would serve no purpose beyond stroking their own egos (which they have long since grown apart from).

You've gotta thing about this from as mature a mind as you can possibly muster. At which point you have to ask yourself "Why would they even care to fight each other? What would they hope to gain that cooperation couldn't bring?"

[Darth Stabber]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.:smallredface:

There are people who flag in their devotion to the God Emperor of Man Tippy? BURN THE HERETICS, KILL THE MUTANTS, PURGE THE UNCLEAN!!!

Assuming adventures exist in a D&D world, a competent adventuring wizard is going to have a serious edge over HP wizards, though not as overbearing. D&D magic is far more open ended, and assuming they make an attempt at keeping up their touch ac, they shouldn't have that hard a time. Factor in druids, clerics, psions, ect, and you have a recipe for trouble, since they offer a very wide range of threats and counters. Deathward and mindblank keep a caster immune to the most threatening spells that can be chucked at them. Shatter will render them mostly ineffectual in a hurry. The existance of AMF gives them another huge leg up. Turn off the magic and a wizard's barbarian friend will have little issue rending them asunder. The power of undead and constructs also heavily favors the forces of tippy. Even beyond shadesteel golems, your more common varieties of golems offer enough power and immunities to kill many hp wizards. Assuming that HP spells carry the obvious descriptor (mostly death and mind affecting), and magic immunities work across the board, a simple iron golem presents a very serious threat. Undead are a bit less immune, but easy to acquire in large numbers in fairly short order, and would fill out the ranks of an attack force very easily. Dispel would turn off all the toys they are so fond of using, and disjunction would do it for good. There is still much in favor of the D&D wizards, the only real impediment to utter domination is casting time and spell slots, which is relatively minor.


Fluff and Tippyverse shouldn't actually co-exist in the same sentence. If it is Fluff based D&D Vs HP then you just get two people who have no reason to encounter each other and would most likely just exist for the sake of existing.

Elminster, Mordenkainen, Rasitlin would most likely just meet Dumbledore for tea on the roof of a small brownstone apartment in Brooklyn. All 3, regardless of Alignment wouldn't fight because... Well why would they? They're super-intelligent titans in their own field and thus would not want to fight because in the long run it would serve no purpose beyond stroking their own egos (which they have long since grown apart from).

You've gotta thing about this from as mature a mind as you can possibly muster. At which point you have to ask yourself "Why would they even care to fight each other? What would they hope to gain that cooperation couldn't bring?"

This is not the time for maturity.

[CRtwenty]

What really seems to be the problem is that Karsus picked entirely the wrong god to target. Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic? :smallsigh:

Because he was an idiot who assumed that since he was in the FR that his plot armor would protect hjm. Unfortunately he forgot he was background material and therefore wasn't protected.

Oh I got a great idea for a FR novel. Elminster goes back in time and SUCCESSFULLY CASTS KARSUS'S SPELL! Get Ed Greenwood on the phone right now!

Hrm, is Elminster the Wizard in the Sky for FR? It makes sense. o_o

[Xar Zarath]

This is not the time for maturity.[/QUOTE]

Lol

On-Topic:OK...:smallredface: so apparently fluff can mix with Tippyverse but never you mind. I suppose it would be beneficial for HPverse to join forced with Muggles, since the DnD Wizards would be indiscriminate in who they wanted to conquer.

Off-Topic: Has anyone read fanfiction by Imperial Overlord from sd.net. Its actually good, about a Epic drow Wizard and his party. The author hasn't updated in a few years If I am not mistaken. Anyone read the author's work before and if so does anyone know what happened to him/her?

[Arcanist]

Because he was an idiot who assumed that since he was in the FR that his plot armor would protect hjm. Unfortunately he forgot he was background material and therefore wasn't protected.

Oh I got a great idea for a FR novel. Elminster goes back in time and SUCCESSFULLY CASTS KARSUS'S SPELL! Get Ed Greenwood on the phone right now!

Hrm, is Elminster the Wizard in the Sky for FR? It makes sense. o_o

Actually Mystra is the de-facto Wizard-In-The-Sky unless Ao has anything to say about it (which he usually doesn't). To quote Larloch "No matter how powerful one becomes, there are always those who are stronger."

[Berenger]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

[CRtwenty]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

A reasonably trained HP Wizard could evade a team of marines fairly easily. I mean most of them are able to teleport themselves at will by the time they leave school. About the only way to take one out would be a sniper the Wizard was unaware of.

[Arcanist]

A reasonably trained HP Wizard could evade a team of marines fairly easily. I mean most of them are able to teleport themselves at will by the time they leave school. About the only way to take one out would be a sniper the Wizard was unaware of.

I am reminded of the show Heroes... How about, 10 of us against 1 of them? Or 20 of us against 1 of them? :smalltongue: I will note that despite a Wizards semi-cosmic nearly phenomenal power there is a point where victory literally becomes impossible, but for a Wizard to get to that point to say that they have just run into a cool piece of 24-karots of bad luck would be an understatement :smalltongue:

Honestly, I believe that is why the whole private Demiplane thing was created. To allow the Wizard or spellcaster to flee if they absolutely need to do so... Even if the entire universe is against them, they will always have a hole to hide in. Tragically a HP Wizard does not have this so they are SoL if the whole world just decides they want them dead :smallamused:

[CRtwenty]

Honestly, I believe that is why the whole private Demiplane thing was created. To allow the Wizard or spellcaster to flee if they absolutely need to do so... Even if the entire universe is against them, they will always have a hole to hide in. Tragically a HP Wizard does not have this so they are SoL if the whole world just decides they want them dead :smallamused:

That's probably one of the reasons for all the secrecy. Though it seems most Muggles automatically fail all of their saves against all of the HPverse's weirdness censor spells or anti Muggle devices, so it'd be pretty hard for us to actually find them if they didn't want to be found.

[Spuddles]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

Couldn't you say that about virtually any non-combatants, though? I mean, you're comparing bureaucrats at the ministry of magic to soldiers.

I doubt a whole squad of marines could handle a pair of well trained combat wizards.

[Xar Zarath]

Couldn't you say that about virtually any non-combatants, though? I mean, you're comparing bureaucrats at the ministry of magic to soldiers.

I doubt a whole squad of marines could handle a pair of well trained combat wizards.

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...:smallcool:

[Drachasor]

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

That said, HP does have some things up its sleeve.

Avada Kadavra - Kills you if it hits. NO SAVE. It works on constructs. I don't think Magic Immunity would work against it -- creatures with SR in HP aren't resistant. All those whatever golems? Dead.

Transmutation - HP spells to turn you into a rat don't allow a save either.

Fiendfyre - It just keeps burning and burning and burning. It can destroy even powerful magical artifacts. It's unclear how to stop it.

Spells at your iterative attack bonus -- so it would seem.

Magical items are very easy for HP wizards to make compared to D&D wizards.

House Elves - They ignore Dimensional Anchor and similar effects.

Still, I think it would take a miracle to win against an Epic Caster on another plane.

Then again, Dumbledore can counterspell with a bluff check. I can't help but feel Dumbledore held back on insane crap just because it wouldn't be worth the cost of victory. HP has a lot of stuff with ridiculous implications. Just not as ridiculous as Epic Casting, generally.

Then again, maybe Inevitables in the HP universe are just that much crazier.

[Spuddles]

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...:smallcool:

Virtually all HP offensive spells involve ranged touch attacks, most of which have SR (I think the werewolf had stuff ping off him). Not getting shot by muggles pointing muggle wands at you would be fairly intuitive. Then there's all the ways wizards can obfuscate their position that technology cannot overcome because magic autowins vs tech.

[Arcanist]

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

It doesn't take much knowledge to know that if someone points, what they interpret as, a weapon at you it means to dive for cover. Might be from playing FPS and going for a little paint ball with the boys, but dashing for cover feels like it would be wise to do in any ranged encounter.


However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...:smallcool:

Erm... I believe that Epic Telekinesis would be more along the lines of an Epic Psionic ability... Anywho! DnD Wizards are more about subterfuge and planning rather than going full Arcane on someone who pisses them off; Sure they can do this, but it would be suboptimal towards their plans.

EDIT: I found that making a 2nd comment would be a waste of space so I'll just merge these two comments together...

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

If one side has to actually hold back for the other side to have a hope of victory then did the other side truly win? (If victory is so attained) :smallconfused:


Avada Kadavra - Kills you if it hits. NO SAVE. It works on constructs. I don't think Magic Immunity would work against it -- creatures with SR in HP aren't resistant. All those whatever golems? Dead.

And Death Ward isn't a thing apparently?


Transmutation - HP spells to turn you into a rat don't allow a save either.

You actually got me stumped on this one actually... Undermaster is a personal favorite spell. It buries the other guy alive, no save. :smalltongue:


Fiendfyre - It just keeps burning and burning and burning. It can destroy even powerful magical artifacts. It's unclear how to stop it.

And disarming the Wizard to prevent them from casting the charm (Partis Temporus) to deactivate it the spell isn't an option because? Dispel Magic is a thing on that note.


Spells at your iterative attack bonus -- so it would seem.

wut? :smallconfused:


Magical items are very easy for HP wizards to make compared to D&D wizards.

Magic items in HP are highly underpowered, I'd like to add. The Deathly Hollows, the most powerful known magical items in the series, can literally be constructed by a 7th level Wizard.


House Elves - They ignore Dimensional Anchor and similar effects.

I don't recall this, can you cite the book that states that a House Elf can still Disapparate while normal Wizards would be unable to travel through such means?


Still, I think it would take a miracle to win against an Epic Caster on another plane.

It would be a miracle to win against an Epic spellcaster on any plane if they are fighting at their absolute best :smalltongue:


Then again, Dumbledore can counterspell with a bluff check. I can't help but feel Dumbledore held back on insane crap just because it wouldn't be worth the cost of victory. HP has a lot of stuff with ridiculous implications. Just not as ridiculous as Epic Casting, generally.

What? What!? What!? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TozoL_P0804)

I wouldn't call that "Counterspelling"... I'd just call it a really good Bluff check :smalltongue:

[undead hero]

Wasn't there an interview where the author said that the wizards in HP universe could be taken out by someone with a shotgun? I wish I could find that.

If that is so I really see the D&D wizards sending ice assassins or whatever with m16 and whatever to take them out.

[Drachasor]

Wasn't there an interview where the author said that the wizards in HP universe could be taken out by someone with a shotgun? I wish I could find that.

If that is so I really see the D&D wizards sending ice assassins or whatever with m16 and whatever to take them out.

It was that an average wizard would probably fail against someone with a shotgun. They just don't have combat training since they're a baker, storekeep, teacher, or whatever.

[undead hero]

It was that an average wizard would probably fail against someone with a shotgun. They just don't have combat training since they're a baker, storekeep, teacher, or whatever.

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

:smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

:smalltongue:

That pun HAD to be intended... It is just TOO bad to actually have been accidental :smallamused:

[undead hero]

That pun HAD to be intended... It is just TOO bad to actually have been accidental :smallamused:

As the great truckasaurus would say "Yuuuuup"

[Eldariel]

In my books, the superior time control of D&D makes this a non-contest. Celerity, Time Stop and Teleport Through Time completely and utterly trump everything in HP speed-wise and since speed is the primary measurement here (who acts first generally wins with the power of offense we're talking here). If you really have trouble ending someone, just Unname them. Or Mindrape them. Or hell, Imprison them.

[Emmerask]

Except for celerity I dont really think so.

In general d&d characters are extremely slow in comparison to HP humans (who use our timeframe).

Lets take time stop, thats 2 to 5 casts in 5 seconds (if you use quickcast its 4 to 10) that really is nothing most likely Dumbledore could do 5 casts in 5 secs without any spell aid.
So time stop in the end just speeds d&d wizards up to HP human casting speeds or depending on rolls a bit faster.

And without it 1 to 2 casts every 5 secs is something even low level hp wizards can do without problem.

Time travel is also in favor of HP with items that allow it to everyone without much knowledge or skill.

Not saying that HP universe has a chance but time is actually something very much in favor of hp ^^

[undead hero]

In my books, the superior time control of D&D makes this a non-contest. Celerity, Time Stop and Teleport Through Time completely and utterly trump everything in HP speed-wise and since speed is the primary measurement here (who acts first generally wins with the power of offense we're talking here). If you really have trouble ending someone, just Unname them. Or Mindrape them. Or hell, Imprison them.

DND wizards don't even need to be anywhere close enough to have to use those spells

:smallbiggrin:

[Threadnaught]

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

Not just in your opinion, but also in the rules of the Tippyverse, where there is no Epic Magic.


However, consider the whole direct assault I posted about earlier. HP Wizards are the Cybermen, Muggles are the Humans and the TV Wizards are the Daleks.

Then there's the question of what happens if a high level Druid gets involved.

[Flickerdart]

Then there's the question of what happens if a high level Druid gets involved.
Not much. Well, unless it's a Planar Shepherd keyed to one of the more insane planes.

[Vedhin]

Tippyverse would definitely win. Why? They have reliable divination. They can easily choose a course of action with a 0% failure rate.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Honestly the biggest strength of the HP magic would be "avada kadavra." I'm not sure it would allow a save. Though, it's probably not that huge of a strength when a majority of spellcasters in the HP world are Good and refuse to use that spell.

[Randomguy]

Think 1984 meets D&D with a darker utopian style to it and you've effectively got the Tippyverse from how Tippy describes it to everyone when they ask (Actually, I expect him to arrive fairly shortly to correct me). In the Tippyverse, there is no hunger, no disease; It is a post scarcity society where people are expected to ignorantly serve a master that they do not know exist and is monitoring their every actions... My god this setting sounds pretty cool :smallconfused:


This seems to be how the Tippyverse is perceived in this thread, DESPITE THE FACT THAT TIPPY SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT ISN'T TRUE: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007)

What the Tippyverse isn’t:
1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life
And from later in that thread:

Not to mention I'm mildly annoyed at all the people who think it's nothing more than a mind rape setting. It was never that and was always as attempt to make a setting that allowed all forms of play across a broad spectrum of levels and play styles while still maintaining suspension of disbelief, verisimilitude, and an inability for the PC's to drastically redefine the world with even a modicum of common sense.

Now that that's out of the way:

There Potterverse does have some magic that would be very useful in a Tippyverse. They've got an at will Dispel with Finite Incantatem, for one. They've also got a load of teleportation, with at will Greater Teleport in the form of Apparition, and port-keys which can be made fairly easily by powerful enough wizards.
Another place where Potterverse Wizards have an advantage is healing magic: They've got some arcane Cure spells for minor wounds and potions and stuff for more serious wounds.
Disillusionment charms are also neat, since they provide a bonus to hide checks rather than actually making you invisible, meaning they can't be detected by True Seeing, you'd need Prying Eyes.

In combat, the two most useful things would probably be Protego, since that's essentially Wings of Cover (I'm basing this off the fact that it can be used to block a spell reactively and not set up in advance) and again Apparition, since that's also been used as an immediate action to dodge spells.

In the end I'd still give the win to DnD wizards, though. For one thing, DnD wizards have better divinations, so they can actually use Scry and Die tactics, while HP wizards only have the teleporting bit. For another, DnD wizards have too much control of the Action Economy to be defeated.

[Talderas]

Honestly the biggest strength of the HP magic would be "avada kadavra." I'm not sure it would allow a save. Though, it's probably not that huge of a strength when a majority of spellcasters in the HP world are Good and refuse to use that spell.

HP alchemy is far more potent than D&D. In D&D, outside a few wonderous item elixers, the vast majority of alchemy involves known poisones or spells of up to 3rd level. Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things. HP alchemy does not have this sort of problem. The value or usefulness of that is debatable.

[unseenmage]

HP alchemy is far more potent than D&D. In D&D, outside a few wonderous item elixers, the vast majority of alchemy involves known poisones or spells of up to 3rd level. Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things. HP alchemy does not have this sort of problem. The value or usefulness of that is debatable.

You do realize that this is irrelevant right? Even as thrown alchemical weapons potions just don't have the range to compete with spells. Even in Potterverse, let alone in D&Dverse with their "400 feet + 40 feet per caster level." spells.

I might be missing something you were implying but I just don't see bringing potions to a spell fight as being relevant.

It's be like bringing a bag of grenades to a sniper fight. Sure you demolished some stuff but you're still riddled with holes, y'know?

[Flickerdart]

Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things.
I recommend you look up potion miscibility rules.

[Hecuba]

Magic items in HP are highly underpowered, I'd like to add. The Deathly Hollows, the most powerful known magical items in the series, can literally be constructed by a 7th level Wizard.

Most famous, certainly.
Most long lasting, probably.
Probably not most powerful though.

The most directly powerful of the three, the wand, seems to be the equivalent of a +lots of caster level item.
Depending on how much plus +lots is, that might be very nice, but the three of the them are mostly just legendary/famous.

The at-will personal, portable time-machines probably trumps (even if they are Novikov self-consistent). *
Heck, the false eye of always-on true-seeing is also worth noting (that gets you up to a level 9 caster, sans-shenanigans).
The Goblet of Fire is probably an item of Geas.

Even then, your generalized point holds: most of what we see is strictly mid-level. But it does seem to be more readily available and easier to create.

*trumps the hallows, not high-end D&D.

[shadow_archmagi]

HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.

[Flickerdart]

HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.
Dead? Come on, use every part of the buffalo. Indoctrinated, at least.

[Drachasor]

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

:smalltongue:

Don't get too big of a head over that. The average D&D wizard also dies to a commoner with a shotgun. Average D&D wizards are extremely low level, aren't adventurers, and don't regularly prepare combat spells. Adventurers are not the norm.

Kentucky against HP non-muggle bakers, accountants, etc. have a decent shot at winning. Your State has zero chance of winning against an HP Ministry of Magic.

That said, high level D&D wizards have a lot of tricks up their sleeves as others have noted. I don't see a good way for HP wizards to win, short of a prophecy declaring that they'll win.

If you cap D&D levels at 10, I think HP wins without too much trouble. It's on the march to 20 that they start to really fall behind.

Though, if we were going to optimize the HP universe, then I think they have a much better shot. Easy time travel, fantastic divination (thanks to Centaurs and probably other magical creatures), the ability to teleport through wards (thanks to House Elves), etc, etc. There's a lot of HP that could be leveraged a heck of a lot better.


HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.

Not so. They have AoE spells. Fiendfyre is particularly nasty here. They can make constructs in a split second. Dumbledore took out a room of Aurors with a single spell (non-lethally, I might add). They also can fire off spells a lot quicker than D&D Wizards.

Their transmutation ability was hardly touched on. Same with their potion-making. They can do the D&D equivalent of bottling nat 20s for the day -- FOR THE DAY.

I think it would actually take a lot of time to figure out what a fully realistic and properly optimized HP-verse would look like. It definitely wouldn't look like the books.

[Elderand]

Sniper rifle round to the face from a km away is the standard way for normal peoples to take care of wizards. A dnd wizard could survive that what with hyper reaction time and force field and the like. HP magic is almost entirely offensive and counterspell based. No force shield from what I can remember and nothing that can help if taken by surprise.

[Flickerdart]

If you cap D&D levels at 10, I think HP wins without too much trouble. It's on the march to 20 that they start to really fall behind.
What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

[Drachasor]

What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

Seriously? Constructs and Undead? You're kidding right? HP wizards can MAKE constructs faster than D&D wizards can make both constructs and undead combined.

Avada Kedavra kills D&D constructs, demons, and all or almost all undead. No save, no SR.

An optimized HP has excellent divination via magical creatures. Centaurs, for instant, definitely seem to have a much better idea of what's going on than Wizards in HP. A combined force of HP universe will know when things are coming just as well as D&D wizards.

Edit: Oh and worst case regarding divination, you just leverage a Felix Felicis potion properly and you get all the answers to everything you want. (It's actually better than just nat 20s on everything).

What makes you think HP wizards can't strike back? They clearly can make portals more bizarre than to other planes. Sirius fell into one.

[Flickerdart]

Seriously? Constructs and Undead? You're kidding right? HP wizards can MAKE constructs faster than D&D wizards can make both constructs and undead combined.

Avada Kedavra kills D&D constructs, demons, and all or almost all undead. No save, no SR.

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?


What makes you think HP wizards can't strike back? They clearly can make portals more bizarre than to other planes. Sirius fell into one.
Conjecture. Unless you can provide evidence that Harry Potter wizards can travel between planes, we cannot assume that they are able to do so.

And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.

[dascarletm]

What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

Planeshift is debatable since other planes do not exist in PV, so that topic is not discussed. If we are using the separate worlds scenario then that spell would probably not have any effect on the PV dimension. Depends on how we set up the scenario, and who we want to give the advantage.

Constructs and Undead were fought in PV, and they showed to have little resistance to spells. Perhaps most of them are SR:No. There are also many spells that higher "level" wizards in PV use that are not direct rays and such. Things that use the environment against the opponent. Those would probably be effective.

[Quorothorn]

The problem here, as I see it, is the basic disconnect in trying to compare a game system that has existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, with numerous splatbooks with overpowered or 'breakable' aspects, at its most theoretically overoptimized, absurdist form, 'against'...the world of a series of books that, although it has also existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, exists and was worked over in a much different manner, if that makes sense to y'all.

We don't know what a "Tippyverse" version of HP would really look like since the same principles that created such a thing for D&D have not been applied to the HP 'verse, and, to be frank, probably can't be, at least not to the same degree, since the HP magic system is not mechanized to even comparably the same degree as 3.5 D&D's. And comparing any actual fantasy story to Theoretically Optimized 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons is kind of...ridiculous, as we all ought to know simply by being on the GitP forums.

Much of the comparison so far seems to have been Tippyverse "against" HP 'verse as seen in the books, and/or trying to translate HP magic as seen in the books to D&D terms, rather than what the topic title seems to have suggested...because we just don't really have a "Tippyverse" equivalent for the Potterverse, at least not to my knowledge.

[Hecuba]

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?
I think the Golem reference is regarding the Centaur Statue from the Fountain of Magical Brethren, which Dumbledore intercepted an AK during the Atrium Duel and was "killed."

As far as I can tell, the other two are conjecture.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think you can compare an Animated Object with an actual proper golem.

[Drachasor]

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?

Dumbledore uses a spell to make a construct to block an Avada Kadevra when he fights Voldemort. The construct explodes.



And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.

1. Have Bob drink Felix.

2. Bob, here are our resources, how should we direct our troops?

3. What sort of defenses do we need to setup?

4. The research team has hit a snag Bob, here's what they are doing. Any suggestions?

5. If you had to pick a time, when do you think the next enemy attack will be?

6. Ok, we're going to hunt for infiltrators and mind-controlled wizards, Bob. What location should we start at first?

Etc, etc, etc. (Edit: Last tasks: Bob, who should drink the potion tomorrow? What questions should we ask them?)

It leads you to the optimal answers to whatever you are after. It's ripe for abuse. (As for the side effects of long term exposure, that's easily avoided by changing who uses it).

[dascarletm]

The problem here, as I see it, is the basic disconnect in trying to compare a game system that has existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, with numerous splatbooks with overpowered or 'breakable' aspects, at its most theoretically overoptimized, absurdist form, 'against'...the world of a series of books that, although it has also existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, exists and was worked over in a much different manner, if that makes sense to y'all.

We don't know what a "Tippyverse" version of HP would really look like since the same principles that created such a thing for D&D have not been applied to the HP 'verse, and, to be frank, probably can't be, at least not to the same degree, since the HP magic system is not mechanized to even comparably the same degree as 3.5 D&D's. And comparing any actual fantasy story to Theoretically Optimized 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons is kind of...ridiculous, as we all ought to know simply by being on the GitP forums.

Much of the comparison so far seems to have been Tippyverse "against" HP 'verse as seen in the books, and/or trying to translate HP magic as seen in the books to D&D terms, rather than what the topic title seems to have suggested...because we just don't really have a "Tippyverse" equivalent for the Potterverse, at least not to my knowledge.


I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?
Undead: Inferi (may or may not be resilient to AK)
Constructs: Piertotum Locomotor Creates constructs. Animated suits of armor which would be of the construct type. (seen in movies as being destroyed by spells appearing to be AK)
Demon not so much.


Conjecture. Unless you can provide evidence that Harry Potter wizards can travel between planes, we cannot assume that they are able to do so.
We cannot assume one way or the other really. The topic isn't covered since a multiplane cosmology is not the one in which PV resides


And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.
Conjecture give me an example of a spell killing someone under the effects of the spell. Thus we cannot assume...

[Drachasor]

I think the Golem reference is regarding the Centaur Statue from the Fountain of Magical Brethren, which Dumbledore intercepted an AK during the Atrium Duel and was "killed."

As far as I can tell, the other two are conjecture.

Yes. Based off the fact it can kill something that's not even alive, I don't see why it couldn't handle a Demon.

Also, it is a fact nothing can block the spell. That's repeated over and over and over again. Definitely SR no. I believe it is used in the books once or twice against creatures that would have the HP SR equivalent.

On undead: I suppose you could argue it is "negative energy" but that is REALLY pure conjecture at that point. By D&D rules it is the only way their undead could survive -- though possibly incoporeal undead would be ok. Dementors don't seem killable, though we don't really know what they are.

And by D&D standards, if it can kill a construct, it can kill undead. They have the same resistances as far as that goes. Short of that, there's fiendfyre and other ways for HP wizards to do mass damage.

[Elderand]

Avada Kedavra is a non issue, any dnd wizard who did is homework will know that a large part of HP spells are rays, including the famous "you're dead lol".
That simply means wizards from dnd will show up with ray deflection.

[Drachasor]

Avada Kedavra is a non issue, any dnd wizard who did is homework will know that a large part of HP spells are rays, including the famous "you're dead lol".
That simply means wizards from dnd will show up with ray deflection.

AK cannot be blocked* or deflected.

*Short of another being literally getting in the way of the beam (which kills that being).

[Karnith]

That simply means wizards from dnd will show up with ray deflection.
Or will show up with Improved(/Superior) Invisibility, or some other means of not being targeted by spells.

Or they could just Celerity it up and kill the HP wizards before the latter can get a shot off.

[Elderand]

AK cannot be blocked or deflected.

That's not a defense, that's just the way it work in HP were protection spells are all but non existant. Avada Kedavra is a ray, it can be dodged, it can be intercepted and even in HP verse it was in fact blocked by a ritual. There is no reason to believe Avada Kedavra would be able to ignore defensive spell that are far more prevalent and developped than in the HP verse.

If you insist that it cannot be blocked it still is a non issue simply because a DnD wizard will act first (celerity) and will end the encounter right there and then. And even if they don't act first, all it take to make Avada Kedavra useless is a good touch AC.

[Emmerask]

Sorry but you try to enforce rules from one universe while completely ignoring the other.

If a spell makes an exception to all rules and says that it cant be blocked then it just cant be blocked, and since it specifically says it cant be blocked unlike other spells there are defenses against other spells :smallwink:

AK will ignore any and all magical protections that is what the lore tells us.

What you can do since it has been done is evade or simply not hit ie a ranged touch attack must be made to hit with it.

[Gildedragon]

Note that Calm Emotions impedes AvKe from being cast at all; and does nothing to a symbol of death or a PW kill.

[Elderand]

Sorry but you try to enforce rules from one universe while completely ignoring the other.

If a spell makes an exception to all rules and says that it cant be blocked then it just cant be blocked, and since it specifically says it cant be blocked unlike other spells there are defenses against other spells :smallwink:

What you can do since it has been done is evade or simply not hit ie a ranged touch attack must be made to hit with it.

My argument is that saying avada kedavra cannot be blocked is like a caveman saying his stone tipped spear cannot be blocked. It might be true whithin his paradigm but the caveman never met a guy wearing full plate armor.

Avada Kedavra cannot be blocked by the near unexistant defensive spell of the HP verse. Which is, by the way, not true. It takes a ritual but it can be blocked, the whole plot of the serie only happened because the so called unblockable spell was blocked.

If the so called unblockable spell could be blocked even with the pathetic excuse for abjuration the HP verse has it stand to reason that a world were abjuration is far more developped would have effective counter measure.

It is also entirely possible that Avada Kedavra really can't be blocked by anything short of the "another sacrifice himself for my benefit" ritual. But even then DnD wizard have other tools that make it unlikely that a HP wizard would even get a chance to act. And if worse come to worse, any given dnd wizard is exactly one mindrape away from gaining protection from avada kedavra since tehy can force other to genuinly want to sacrifice themselves for them.

[Arcanist]

My comments are just getting longer and longer...

AK cannot be blocked* or deflected.

*Short of another being literally getting in the way of the beam (which kills that being).

Like I said, Death Ward is a thing :smallsigh: Unless you are going to honestly argue that AK wouldn't be a Death Effect.


This seems to be how the Tippyverse is perceived in this thread, DESPITE THE FACT THAT TIPPY SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT ISN'T TRUE: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007)

Despite what Tippy says, the Tippyverse can quickly (and often does) devolve into a 1984-esque world because the most pronounced trait of a Tippyverse Wizard is that they are super paranoid. A truly paranoid Wizard with even 5 ranks in Knowledge (System Mastery) would know that the only way he'll be safe is if their is only one Wizard and that Wizard is him. Thus it is quite obvious that is how it will turn out for their culture.


If you cap D&D levels at 10, I think HP wins without too much trouble. It's on the march to 20 that they start to really fall behind.

I think they would have better luck if the Tippyverse Wizards were level 1.

Placing unnecessary limits on one side is ridiculous.


Planeshift is debatable since other planes do not exist in PV, so that topic is not discussed. If we are using the separate worlds scenario then that spell would probably not have any effect on the PV dimension. Depends on how we set up the scenario, and who we want to give the advantage.

I figured that the quote/unquote field of valor would be somewhere where both cosmologies exist. Each side have everything that they would have, no taking away from anyone.


Constructs and Undead were fought in PV, and they showed to have little resistance to spells. Perhaps most of them are SR:No. There are also many spells that higher "level" wizards in PV use that are not direct rays and such. Things that use the environment against the opponent. Those would probably be effective.

They could be like Quarcrafted Warforged where they have no magical resistance.


Sorry but you try to enforce rules from one universe while completely ignoring the other.

If a spell makes an exception to all rules and says that it cant be blocked then it just cant be blocked, and since it specifically says it cant be blocked unlike other spells there are defenses against other spells :smallwink:

AK will ignore any and all magical protections that is what the lore tells us.

What you can do since it has been done is evade or simply not hit ie a ranged touch attack must be made to hit with it.

Hmm... You are right. To stay in line with the lore of the HP universe I just deflect the spell. Ray Deflection just deflects the spell harmlessly off the caster. Of course you can always counterspell the danged thing, evade it with Displacement, gain impossibly high AC, or hell, already being (Un)dead should make you immune to it so against the common Lich, Vampire, Necropolitan, etc.


It is also entirely possible that Avada Kedavra really can't be blocked by anything short of the "another sacrifice himself for my benefit" ritual. But even then DnD wizard have other tools that make it unlikely that a HP wizard would even get a chance to act. And if worse come to worse, any given dnd wizard is exactly one mindrape away from gaining protection from avada kedavra since tehy can force other to genuinly want to sacrifice themselves for them.

Waste of resources. A truly tactically minded Wizard would have not wasted a non-expendable resource like a life when they can just indoctrinate them to serve them. They'd more likely Summon a creature to take the blow.

[Emmerask]

I am not saying the hp universe would win, d&d 3.5 magic is much too poorly written (and that is saying something when its compared to a universe where spells are basically fiat^^).
So yes d&d wins but hp universe has some stuff going for it :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

That's not a defense, that's just the way it work in HP were protection spells are all but non existant. Avada Kedavra is a ray, it can be dodged, it can be intercepted and even in HP verse it was in fact blocked by a ritual. There is no reason to believe Avada Kedavra would be able to ignore defensive spell that are far more prevalent and developped than in the HP verse.

If you insist that it cannot be blocked it still is a non issue simply because a DnD wizard will act first (celerity) and will end the encounter right there and then. And even if they don't act first, all it take to make Avada Kedavra useless is a good touch AC.

I do recall Avada Kedavra is explicitly unblockable through magical means other than beam ray lock. It can, however, be blocked by physical barriers, Not Being There™, Contingency-type stuff and such. And Ray Deflection, which would just misdirect the Ray, would be a very hard one to call; is it a magical protection against the spell itself or only the delivery?

And death is not very interesting to a D&D Wizard, even if they get personally attacked; a single contingent Revivify followed by e.g. automatic trigger of the Healing Armor or having Beastland Ferocity on automatically restores your combat ability as if nothing happened.


One of the biggest mismatches here is honestly death; D&D Wizards can instill fates far worse and irreversible than death (Horcruxes would be mighty useless if you get Unnamed for instance), while HPverse lacks tools to even efficiently deal with death (or instill conditions any worse than that). And death is simple to reverse for D&Dverse Wizards.

In general, countermagic is much more potent in D&D; Anticipate Teleportation would completely wreck anyone trying apparation, things like Dimensional Locks and Anti-Magic Fields allow control beyond anything HPverse contains and when it really comes down to it, high level D&D Wizards do have the capability to take as many standard actions they want at any point in time. And I'm fairly certain Teleport Through Time outpowers the Time Turners fairly significantly far as scope of time you can cut through goes (though never explicitly stated, already the fact that Time-Turners operate on hours suggests this; the very act of going back 50 years would require a ridiculous number of turns).

EDIT: I'm also not certain D&D time travel is restricted by Novikov's. Or rather, I'm fairly certain it's not since stable time loops don't seem to exist in the worlds so it stands to reason things actually change and we're looking at a probability matrix with parallel worlds instead.

[dascarletm]

My argument is that saying avada kedavra cannot be blocked is like a caveman saying his stone tipped spear cannot be blocked. It might be true whithin his paradigm but the caveman never met a guy wearing full plate armor.

That is a very good point. Which is why I don't think the worlds are really compatable enough to "fight." If you are asking which magic is more powerful, in DnD you can do more things, that are more world changing, but only a few times a day. I'd still say I'd rather re-write reality completely once/day, then to change a little bit at will.


I figured that the quote/unquote field of valor would be somewhere where both cosmologies exist. Each side have everything that they would have, no taking away from anyone.
whether or not other planes accessible in the field of valor gives advantages to different sides. You are changing the battle ground to be more like one sides cosmology than the other, which is just an unavoidable circumstance of these mock up vs. matches.



They could be like Quarcrafted Warforged where they have no magical resistance.
I don't know much about those, but the animated armor doesn't fit to warforged. It doesn't have a personality or "soul." It is a mindless construct, which acts off of the creators will. More like that one construct from MM2 or 3, or Infernal armor. Idk if they have spell resistance though.

[Arcanist]

whether or not other planes accessible in the field of valor gives advantages to different sides. You are changing the battle ground to be more like one sides cosmology than the other, which is just an unavoidable circumstance of these mock up vs. matches.

So basically, if one side has access to everything they should have, the other side is at an unfair advantage. :smallannoyed:


I don't know much about those, but the animated armor doesn't fit to warforged. It doesn't have a personality or "soul." It is a mindless construct, which acts off of the creators will. More like that one construct from MM2 or 3, or Infernal armor. Idk if they have spell resistance though.

Quarcrafted Warforged are unintelligent, personality-less, mindless constructs. They are effectively just standard constructs that serve as physical labor with no spell resistance.

[undead hero]

Honestly the biggest strength of the HP magic would be "avada kadavra." I'm not sure it would allow a save. Though, it's probably not that huge of a strength when a majority of spellcasters in the HP world are Good and refuse to use that spell.

Well at least the wizard's best friend Cleric McZilla can cast death ward or some other "no death effects" spell.

[dascarletm]

So basically, if one side has access to everything they should have, the other side is at an unfair advantage. :smallannoyed:
I could take this to extremes and show you examples that supplement my point, but in my opinion: sometimes.

I'd say that the lack of certain aspects/things (multiplanes) existing in a world is also something that they have. :smallconfused: Though you probably would be right in this case.

It's like having a warrior-mage (Joe) who has lived/trained/fought in narrow caves his whole life fight versus a warrior-mage (Bob) who has lived/trained/fought in the elemental plane of air fight one another(assuming only caves and open planes exist). If the battle is in the open plane Joe won't know how to deal with flight, but if it is in a narrow cavern, Bob probably won't know what to do with stone-meld/burrow speeds.



Quarcrafted Warforged are unintelligent, personality-less, mindless constructs. They are effectively just standard constructs that serve as physical labor with no spell resistance.

Are they immune to death-effects like other constructs?

[Arcanist]

I could take this to extremes and show you examples that supplement my point, but in my opinion: sometimes.

I'd say that the lack of certain aspects/things (multiplanes) existing in a world is also something that they have. :smallconfused: Though you probably would be right in this case.

It's like having a warrior-mage (Joe) who has lived/trained/fought in narrow caves his whole life fight versus a warrior-mage (Bob) who has lived/trained/fought in the elemental plane of air fight one another(assuming only caves and open planes exist). If the battle is in the open plane Joe won't know how to deal with flight, but if it is in a narrow cavern, Bob probably won't know what to do with stone-meld/burrow speeds.

I see your point. It is like a Fighter who trained his entire life in a small town Vs a Fighter who has trained his entire life across the world. I still don't exactly see however how this would warrant disallowing an entire section of their universe. If anything it actually furthers the statement that the DnD Wizards would achieve victory in a leveled playing field.


Are they immune to death-effects like other constructs?

They are as immune to Death effects as every other Warforged :smalltongue:

[dascarletm]

I see your point. It is like a Fighter who trained his entire life in a small town Vs a Fighter who has trained his entire life across the world. I still don't exactly see however how this would warrant disallowing an entire section of their universe. If anything it actually furthers the statement that the DnD Wizards would achieve victory in a leveled playing field.

It would probably be permissible, but it is an advantage inherit in the setting. Whether or not PV magic could achieve those things if it was placed in the setting we don't know.


They are as immune to Death effects as every other Warforged :smalltongue:
Hrm. Well..... I don't know.:smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

Quarcrafted Warforged are unintelligent, personality-less, mindless constructs. They are effectively just standard constructs that serve as physical labor with no spell resistance.

Where are these from? A Google search has proven fruitless.

And also this might be the dumbest discussion I've ever taken part in. And it's wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Conjecture give me an example of a spell killing someone under the effects of the spell. Thus we cannot assume...
Hermione says it won't help. And Hermione knows more about spells and potions than anyone here.

[Arcanist]

Hrm. Well..... I don't know.:smallbiggrin:

Lol, Warforged are explicitly called out as being vulnerable to death effects :smalltongue:


Where are these from? A Google search has proven fruitless.

Secrets of Xen'drik :smallwink:


And also this might be the dumbest discussion I've ever taken part in. And it's wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

I have had worse discussions. You ever have an argument with someone over which movie effectively ended M. Night Shyamalan's career (I think it was Signs...)?

[dascarletm]

Where are these from? A Google search has proven fruitless.

And also this might be the dumbest discussion I've ever taken part in. And it's wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

You simply must try our paladin morality threads. :smallwink:

[Threadnaught]

AK causes damage to objects as well as kill people, it can't be a death effect alone.

Force? Of course it'd still be blockable by the TV Wizards, just not the less competent HP Wizards.


@Everyone citing Average D&D Wizards.
Your average TV Wizard is far more optimized than the average D&D Wizard. Your average TV Wizard knows about Magic in D&D as if it were a science, they know how every official non-Epic Spell works and which ones are the most effective.
It takes an average TV Wizard to kill the average TV Wizard.

[Doug Lampert]

My argument is that saying avada kedavra cannot be blocked is like a caveman saying his stone tipped spear cannot be blocked.


That is a very good point. Which is why I don't think the worlds are really compatable enough to "fight."

Except, in THIS CASE, the caveman is saying "But my stone tipped spear can't be blocked!" Right AFTER we've actually seen one, in his universe, being blocked.

We know it can be blocked in the HP universe. People in the HP universe say it can't be. But in their universe, we KNOW they are WRONG.

This just means they don't understand their own magic (duh).

It can be blocked, put something in the way, it can be blocked, by a mother's love, it can be blocked, by another wand with the same core, it can be blocked.

[dascarletm]

Except, in THIS CASE, the caveman is saying "But my stone tipped spear can't be blocked!" Right AFTER we've actually seen one, in his universe, being blocked.

We know it can be blocked in the HP universe. People in the HP universe say it can't be. But in their universe, we KNOW they are WRONG.

This just means they don't understand their own magic (duh).

It can be blocked, put something in the way, it can be blocked, by a mother's love, it can be blocked, by another wand with the same core, it can be blocked.

Well, I meant more in a general sense than in that particular case.

Something inherent in one world may/may not be the case in the other. There are many examples of different laws of magic that contradict one-another from one world to the next. How these would interact is uncertain.

[Darth Stabber]

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

That said, HP does have some things up its sleeve.

Avada Kadavra - Kills you if it hits. NO SAVE. It works on constructs. I don't think Magic Immunity would work against it -- creatures with SR in HP aren't resistant. All those whatever golems? Dead.

Harry survived, so it's obviously resistable, maybe you don't auto succeed on 20, maybe you absolutely have to have some sort of immunity effect, but it obviously isn't fool proof. And you never see it used on a construct, there is no compelling reason it would work on them, nor on undead.


Transmutation - HP spells to turn you into a rat don't allow a save either.[/qoute]

There are several ways around polymorph effects that don't rely on saves.

[Quote]Fiendfyre - It just keeps burning and burning and burning. It can destroy even powerful magical artifacts. It's unclear how to stop it.

D&D has similar


Spells at your iterative attack bonus -- so it would seem.

Not all that useful if your spells suck by comparison


Magical items are very easy for HP wizards to make compared to D&D wizards.

This is the key advantage that they possess.


House Elves - They ignore Dimensional Anchor and similar effects.

So just blast them down.


Still, I think it would take a miracle to win against an Epic Caster on another plane.

That's the general consensus.


Then again, Dumbledore can counterspell with a bluff check. I can't help but feel Dumbledore held back on insane crap just because it wouldn't be worth the cost of victory. HP has a lot of stuff with ridiculous implications. Just not as ridiculous as Epic Casting, generally.

Obviously something about HP magic reduces your mind's ability to optimize, because a good eye for optimization could get their whole world running significantly more efficiently. And counterspelling requires awareness, in both universes.


Then again, maybe Inevitables in the HP universe are just that much crazier.

Those that even he who shall not be named will name.

[Rubik]

Obviously something about HP magic reduces your mind's ability to optimize, because a good eye for optimization could get their whole world running significantly more efficiently.Only a small part of the greatness of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. (http://hpmor.com/) Harry does just this. And it's awesome.

[Togo]

Tippyverse vs methods of rationality harry potter would be a better match than straight harry potter, because straight harry potter involves no logical optimisation.

[Hecuba]

Tippyverse vs methods of rationality harry potter would be a better match than straight harry potter, because straight harry potter involves no logical optimisation.

Still not much of a match. Tippyverse has already industrialized their Magic. Methods of Rationality has a single (absurdly intelligent) child who has ideas about industrializing their magic. They'd need a couple centuries or so to catch up.

Even then though, the issue comes down to the higher top-end of D&D magic.
HP magic is easy and (largely) costless (except for the truly powerful effects like Lily's protection), but narrowly defined.
D&D magic is slightly less easy, and the costs can be trivialized, and it has far broader effects at the top end.

[Rubik]

Tippyverse vs methods of rationality harry potter would be a better match than straight harry potter, because straight harry potter involves no logical optimisation.With that Harry at the helm, the HPV is on the verge of Tippy-ization.

[Spuddles]

If we're going to run this stuff in 3.5 dnd d20, harry potter wizards dont even cast spells- all their stuff is supernatural abilities with non-spell effects. The killing curse isn't a dnd spell and it specifically has "cant block it except with the power of loving sacrifice" or something, so ray deflection and death ward will do absolutely nothing.

Of course, trying to hit an invisible will 'o wisp with 40 dex that can abrupt jaunt or contigency teleport is no small task.

[Spuddles]

If we're going to run this stuff in 3.5 dnd d20, harry potter wizards dont even cast spells- all their stuff is supernatural abilities with non-spell effects. The killing curse isn't a dnd spell and it specifically has "cant block it except with the power of loving sacrifice" or something, so ray deflection and death ward will do absolutely nothing.

Of course, trying to hit an invisible will 'o wisp with 40 dex that can abrupt jaunt or contigency teleport is no small task.

Actually, I'm not sure what wand magic counts as. It's somewhere between supernatural and spell-like, as casters can shoot spells without using wands, but it's hard. They also yell and wave wands, like d&d casters using somatic and verbal components. But truenamers also have verbal components for their abilities.

[Rubik]

If we're going to run this stuff in 3.5 dnd d20, harry potter wizards dont even cast spells- all their stuff is supernatural abilities with non-spell effects. The killing curse isn't a dnd spell and it specifically has "cant block it except with the power of loving sacrifice" or something, so ray deflection and death ward will do absolutely nothing.

Of course, trying to hit an invisible will 'o wisp with 40 dex that can abrupt jaunt or contigency teleport is no small task.Even then, AMF will work regardless.

[BWR]

I have had worse discussions. You ever have an argument with someone over which movie effectively ended M. Night Shyamalan's career (I think it was Signs...)?

You'd all be wrong. He's still making movies. WHYYYYYYYYYY? :smallfurious:

[Rubik]

You'd all be wrong. He's still making movies. WHYYYYYYYYYY? :smallfurious:I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I would've remembered, if he had.

...And no, I'm not in denial. Why do you ask?

[eggynack]

The killing curse isn't a dnd spell and it specifically has "cant block it except with the power of loving sacrifice."
... Now I'm imagining countless Tippyverse wizards having mind raped followers, specifically for the purpose of performing a loving sacrifice. Sure, the first wizard might get caught off guard, but this is Tippy we're talking about. All of his wizards probably have sacrificial victims at the ready, just in case there's a Harry Potter crossover.

[dascarletm]

Only a small part of the greatness of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. (http://hpmor.com/) Harry does just this. And it's awesome.

I hope you know Rubik, that I read your post around 8 hours ago. I clicked the link, and have just stopped reading that now. I simultaneously love and loathe you. Curse you RUBIK! :smallfurious:...:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
While PV-MoR is aware of DnD as a setting, Tippy-verse isn't, at least there isn't anything that says they know of that 'verse.

This information could undoubtedly be very useful

[Spuddles]

... Now I'm imagining countless Tippyverse wizards having mind raped followers, specifically for the purpose of performing a loving sacrifice. Sure, the first wizard might get caught off guard, but this is Tippy we're talking about. All of his wizards probably have sacrificial victims at the ready, just in case there's a Harry Potter crossover.

That's so messed up.

The Overwizard has a whole basement of Lily Gholas Clones for just this purpose.

[Rubik]

I hope you know Rubik, that I read your post around 8 hours ago. I clicked the link, and have just stopped reading that now. I simultaneously love and loathe you. Curse you RUBIK! :smallfurious:...:smallbiggrin:Two more chapters were released just today.

And I hope you enjoyed yourself, because this is next. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20)

[dascarletm]

What the Tippyverse isn’t:
1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life

Food for thought as well.

EDIT:

Two more chapters were released just today.

And I hope you enjoyed yourself, because this is next. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20)

Well there goes sleeping before my day of drinking beer and BBQ

[marcielle]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the killing curse gives some sort of Fort/Will save as the fake Mad-eye said that a student could blast him with it and he would only get a nosebleed, though he might have been bragging.

And when a handful of wizards pretty much set Utopia in motion for no discernable benefit(they could have kept it for themselves instead of going to the trouble of propagating it) I don't think you'd need mindrape to get a few loving sacrifices.

[Drachasor]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the killing curse gives some sort of Fort/Will save as the fake Mad-eye said that a student could blast him with it and he would only get a nosebleed, though he might have been bragging.

The spell can give poor results if you don't really want the target dead. That's one of the reasons it is an unforgivable. Killing someone with it is incontestable evidence you planned on killing them. Much like how Crucio requires that you need to get emotional satisfaction out of torturing the target.

If you do want them dead, the books are clear. No magic exists that can block it. And Dumbledore and others demonstrate a decent variety of magical protections and other spells. Harry Potter is a particularly special case.


And when a handful of wizards pretty much set Utopia in motion for no discernable benefit(they could have kept it for themselves instead of going to the trouble of propagating it) I don't think you'd need mindrape to get a few loving sacrifices.

Sacrifice as protection requires HP magic, which would at the very least require an HP magical being and probably an HP human. The exact details beyond that (and that it requires willing sacrifice and acceptance of death) is unclear.

Edit: I don't think we are actually dealing with a well-defined situation regarding the topic of this thread. This isn't Tippyverse D&D vs. Harry Potter, it's Tippyverse D&D vs. TIPPYVERSE Harry Potter. We have to first figure out what the latter universe would even look like before we can have a serious discussion. What's Harry Potter with magic taken to its logical and practicable extremes?

[Xar Zarath]

Taken to its extreme, most likely everyone will be utilizing felix potions for everyday use, AK any criminal, most likely their charms will be utilized to full and logical potential.

Though I think that DnD Wizards just have to blend in with the common populace then start opening gates to Baator/Abyss/Fiendish planes and call it a day. Fiends are likely to start pouring through, if given to chance to visit a Prime Material.:smallamused:

[BWR]

Edit: I don't think we are actually dealing with a well-defined situation regarding the topic of this thread.

This is why I rarely get involved in such discussions because even if you point it out, most people ignore it.

[Invader]

Let's not forget that the most feared wizard in HP is exactly 0% more powerful than any other wizard in HP aside from the horcrux's.

Really even if he had access to the time turner there's about a 9 dozen equally potential spells in the D&D verse.

Voldemort is a 7th level sorcerer with finger of death at will, hardly that imposing.

[undead hero]

After reading all this again I've come to think of HP wizards as tier 3 specialist types. Mostly Warmages and Beguilers but a few that grabbed some other spells.

They are good and may have a trick or two so they can blast really really well but then again we all know blasting isn't the greatest of spells.

AK is a great spell but has the weakness of needing to target the enemy. Getting very high miss chance is easy in D&D plus HP wizard must be in short to medium range but TV wizard... Yeah I don't think they know what short and medium range even is..lol

[Drachasor]

This is why I rarely get involved in such discussions because even if you point it out, most people ignore it.

You have a very good point.

[Hecuba]

Edit: I don't think we are actually dealing with a well-defined situation regarding the topic of this thread. This isn't Tippyverse D&D vs. Harry Potter, it's Tippyverse D&D vs. TIPPYVERSE Harry Potter. We have to first figure out what the latter universe would even look like before we can have a serious discussion. What's Harry Potter with magic taken to its logical and practicable extremes?

To attempt to answer that:

A Tippy-esque HP-verse would have the most defining characteristic of the Tippyverse--industrialized teleportation magic. The format may be different, but both systems are flexible enough that the effect would be largely transparent.

It is also worth noting here that the HP-verse seems to have more reliable methods of stopping teleportation, but with more specific exemptions. The most powerful characters in the book cannot bypass the wards preventing apparition, but portkeys and house-elves are not affected by said wards.

That noted, however, I'm willing to postulate that Tippy-esque HPverse could solve those issues at least to the extent that D&D can solve the parallel issues. The goblins may even have done so, as otherwise Gringotts would be much easier to rob.
We also know very little about the limitations of Portkeys: they do appear to be strictly A-to-B and back. It may well be that you have to cast something at A and then at B to set them up: if so, that makes their military deployment more difficult. This is entirely speculation, but since we are forced to speculate on the topic, I'll take the most limiting interpretation available.

Ultimately, however, where HP magic falls behind is in the other magics they can industrialize. The three most broadly defined and and powerful spells in the Harry Potter world are likely Voldemort's Curse on the DA position, Lily Potter's sacrifice, and the Trace.
All three are impressive bits of magic, even by TV standards. The former two, in particular, seem to be able to work by bending probability\destiny\chance to their purposes (Lily's protection also carries other, more straight forward effects to boot).
The Trace allows absurd asymmetry of information. In order to get a comparable effect in D&D, you have to reach into a deities Portfolio sense.

But all three of these have narrow applications, even when their effects are broad and ill-defined. Even if you industrialize all three of them, even if you industrialize 100 more like them (which we have no indication actually exist), you still come up short of the raw versatility of industrializing Miracle, Reality Revision, and Wish.
__________________________________________________ _____
Also: does anyone know if there is a way to res someone whose soul has been destroyed (I would presume this would be handled in BoVD, but I'm away from my books).

If not, properly controlled Dementors could be a real boon for the HP side. They explicitly cannot be killed or harmed, only driven away. They are not living, dead or undead-- the best description would seem outsider native to the local prime. And they can destroy souls.

[Gildedragon]

Firstly, kudos on a well marshalled argument.
Answering your question on post dementor death to the best of my knowledge: Wish and Res, and True Res ought to work, as the destruction of the soul in BoVD doesn't preclude those spells from working.
This would sort of fit with the fluff from MoI where souls' essence is eternal and indestructible.

[Hecuba]

Firstly, kudos on a well marshalled argument.
Answering your question on post dementor death to the best of my knowledge: Wish and Res, and True Res ought to work, as the destruction of the soul in BoVD doesn't preclude those spells from working.
This would sort of fit with the fluff from MoI where souls' essence is eternal and indestructible.

So we can limit resurrection to 9ths if we really want to keep someone out of the game, which places HP-Tippyverse more or less on par with normal Tippyverse if you're willing to do the leg work.
Offensively, that is useful for the HP side.

Defensively, however they still have the issue of explicitly being unable to undo death. Which their opponents are able to do.
They can substantially curtail the Tippyverse's resurrection capacity if they want to, but they cannot replicate it.

[Gildedragon]

Res is 7th.
And raise dead, reincarnate, and their 1 round versions might work if the dementor's kiss is not a death effect but a negative level, level/ability/HP drain/damage one

[shadow_archmagi]

Not so. They have AoE spells. Fiendfyre is particularly nasty here. They can make constructs in a split second. Dumbledore took out a room of Aurors with a single spell (non-lethally, I might add). They also can fire off spells a lot quicker than D&D Wizards.

AoE's are a start, but again, the point was more about range, mobility, and variety. Being able to KO anyone within the room is a cute trick, and being able to KO everyone in the room is a little better, but being in the room is problematic. A wizard can design an inconspicuous construct (say, a clockwork cockroach), teleport it into your house, and let it cover every available surface with Symbols of Death. Heck, you could probably even make your robot self-replicating.

[Emmerask]

The thing is we do not actually know the upper limit of HP spellcasting, the only glimpse we got was the Dumbledore Voldemort fight in the ministry which was quite impressive with tons of
-counterspells/dispells
-some water imprisonment thingy,
-instant creation of multiple constructs or maybe even creation of beings?
-short range teleportation?

In a straight up fight I think d&d wizards could very well lose especially if we consider action economy.

However due to the d&d wizards ability to not ever let it come to a straight fight this does not really matter ^^

[Flickerdart]

Why do people keep acting like instantly creating constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) is somehow a big deal?

[Emmerask]

A 6th level spell is not that small especially if you can spam it all day long :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Tippyverse is full of 20th level casters. 6th level spells are not important. And all-day endurance is inferior to effective action use in every case.

[Karnith]

A 6th level spell is not that small especially if you can spam it all day long :smallwink:
With Sanctum Spell/Lucubration/Repeat Spell abuse (which Tippyverse wizards would presumably be aware of), Tippyverse wizards are also capable of spamming spells all day. And their spells are better.

Also, what Flickerdart said.

[Hecuba]

Res is 7th.
And raise dead, reincarnate, and their 1 round versions might work if the dementor's kiss is not a death effect but a negative level, level/ability/HP drain/damage one

It is neither death effect or a drain. It does not kill.

It destroys the soul (and leaves the body alive but catatonic, but than can be fixed).

Which limits would seem to limit Resurrection, as Res inherits Raise Dead's requirement that the target's soul be willing.

True Res. should work, as it can restore a dead elemental/outsider. Since these creatures have soul/body unity, this would imply that True Res. can restore a lost soul.


Why do people keep acting like instantly creating constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) is somehow a big deal?

I would honestly be more interested in the fact that the created construct seems to count as being a living creature (or alternately, that AK has a significantly broader effect than otherwise indicated). But we have little information on the question.

[Emmerask]

Tippyverse is full of 20th level casters. 6th level spells are not important. And all-day endurance is inferior to effective action use in every case.

In a world that is practically paradise, why face the danger? and even if everyone is resurrected if a fight goes foul, fighting still hurts quite a lot.

I dont quite see the reason for there being lots of lvl20 casters, most high level characters I know of are so because of extrinsic factors not because they wanted to become one.


With Sanctum Spell/Lucubration/Repeat Spell abuse (which Tippyverse wizards would presumably be aware of), Tippyverse wizards are also capable of spamming spells all day. And their spells are better.


So with a lot of preparation (and questionable rules application) a d&d wizard
can do the same... that is nearly as good as being able to do it everywhere and anywhere ^^

[Elderand]

So with a lot of preparation (and questionable rules application) a d&d wizard
can do the same... that is nearly as good as being able to do it everywhere and anywhere ^^

No, with preparation a dnd wizard can have unlimited use of much more powerful magic than anything the HP verse can throw.

HP verse wizard are more akin to warlocks who got extra invocations in exchange for being nearly useless unless wielding a specific wonderous item (the wand).

[Hecuba]

I dont quite see the reason for there being lots of lvl20 casters, most high level characters I know of are so because of extrinsic factors not because they wanted to become one.

Long answer spoilered
It's a function of the demographic, military, and economic pressures which are stipulated as part of the Tippyverse.
To give an extremely short description, the Tippyverse is a logical extrapolation from the relative ease, economic value of teleportation (combined with the significantly more costly and limited methods of blocking it).
This both to an economic incentive to have casters capable of casting teleportation line spells and a military incentive to have casters capable of defending against such casters. This pressure should reasonably continue up to 9th level spells, as there are relevant combinations of effects that require said 9's, particularly for the defensive side.

These factors should lead to significant change in social structures. While I don't think the Tippyverse is the only reasonable outcome, it certainly seems a reasonable outcome. Moreover, Tippy has outlined and defended it well (look for threads in the forum about the Tippyverse by Tippy).

As I mentioned, an optimized Potterverse should have some similar basic pressures. Teleportation and prevention in the Potterverse, however, are significantly more accessible in Potterverse than in D&D-- at least for the entry level effects. This could limit the upwards pressure, though we don't have a firm indication of that without knowing more details about things like Portkeys and the magical defenses of places like Gringotts.


If the Potterverse has similar pressures when optimized, we still have to contend with the fact that the most powerful effects we've seen in HP do not stack up well against well used 9s. There are specific effects that get in the neighborhood, but they do not appear to be broadly applicable. In contrast, D&D gets Wish, Miracle, and Reality Revision.

[Flickerdart]

Just thought of another huge factor that impacts HPverse negatively.

By virtue of getting to 20th level, a wizard is an expert in a whole bunch of fields - a very conservative estimate of of 20 Intelligence gives him 7 skills to train, and even discounting one for Concentration that's six very broad fields of Knowledge in which he is a super-genius that is capable of discovering previously unknown things just by pausing to think.

Compared to that, HP wizards are utterly ignorant of everything that isn't connected to magic, because their education doesn't feature things like military history and tactics (how many wizarding wars have there been, anyway?), administration, mathematics, artifice (even wandcrafting is more of an art than a science), and so on. And their spellcasting isn't based on intelligence either, so there's no guarantee that a powerful wizard will be especially smart or wise. Even if their magics were comparable enough to have a drawn-out war, Tippyverse would win though superior strategy and logistics.

[Spuddles]

Just thought of another huge factor that impacts HPverse negatively.

By virtue of getting to 20th level, a wizard is an expert in a whole bunch of fields - a very conservative estimate of of 20 Intelligence gives him 7 skills to train, and even discounting one for Concentration that's six very broad fields of Knowledge in which he is a super-genius that is capable of discovering previously unknown things just by pausing to think.

Compared to that, HP wizards are utterly ignorant of everything that isn't connected to magic, because their education doesn't feature things like military history and tactics (how many wizarding wars have there been, anyway?), administration, mathematics, artifice (even wandcrafting is more of an art than a science), and so on. And their spellcasting isn't based on intelligence either, so there's no guarantee that a powerful wizard will be especially smart or wise. Even if their magics were comparable enough to have a drawn-out war, Tippyverse would win though superior strategy and logistics.

Good point. Any moderately optimized D&D character of 20th level, almost regardless of class, is going to be supernaturally good at something due to the 23 ranks in a skill.

[Emmerask]

Well there is Arithmancy (had to look that up) which seems to be Mathematics otherwise you are correct

[Hecuba]

Good point. Any moderately optimized D&D character of 20th level, almost regardless of class, is going to be supernaturally good at something due to the 23 ranks in a skill.

We don't know for certain that such skill levels aren't present in Voldemort and Dumbledore. Like most fantasy novels, even many of those explicitly D&D-based, we spend most of the HP narratives focused on low-to-mid level heroes.

We don't know the level of general expertise we can expect from it if it were systemically optimized like Tippyverse because we don't know what to expect in the way of general expertise from the current top.

Dumbledore, at least, seems to be fairly skilled* in Politics, Law, Strategy, Diplomacy, and Education on top of his mastery of magical topics.

Barty Crouch (senior) can speak over 200 languages, and the presentation seems to be one of learned skill, not a magical gift.

*Or at least, seems to be intended to be so. There are difficulties with writing characters that are intended to be more intelligent than both you and the audience.

[Flickerdart]

The skills of individuals aren't really in question - we know that there are wizard politicians and wizard educators and wizard craftsmen. But the way that the institutions in the Harry Potter world are set up, those people are produced through natural talent rather than through the educational system. They might have some competent people, but as we see in the novels, those are very few and far between.

Also, the scale of the HP world is absolutely tiny. I mean, there's like two guys that craft wands, and manage to supply the entire wizarding community with them. London has just one magical market, and people don't go to half of it because it's evil. There's only three wizarding schools in Europe, and one of them is attended by so few students that they can all fit into a single train that loads from one platform.

[Hecuba]

The skills of individuals aren't really in question - we know that there are wizard politicians and wizard educators and wizard craftsmen. But the way that the institutions in the Harry Potter world are set up, those people are produced through natural talent rather than through the educational system. They might have some competent people, but as we see in the novels, those are very few and far between.

While that is the case in cannon HP-verse, the thread has us examining the "Tippyverse Potterverse." We know that the capacity exists: it might well be something that would be optimized through proper socio-economic pressure in the process of getting to "Tippyverse Potterverse."

At very lest, there seems to be enough of an indication that I don't think we should presume it to be a clear crippling deficiency for a for the theoretical optimized Potterverse.


Also, the scale of the HP world is absolutely tiny. I mean, there's like two guys that craft wands, and manage to supply the entire wizarding community with them. London has just one magical market, and people don't go to half of it because it's evil. There's only three wizarding schools in Europe, and one of them is attended by so few students that they can all fit into a single train that loads from one platform.

The population issue is problematic. Possibly the biggest issue presented thus far.

Magic is (mostly) heritable in HP, so it might be solvable, but you'd need to posit forced breeding programs or the like, and I don't see how that would necessarily follow from the kind of socio-economic pressures that extrapolate to the Tippyverse.
It would have to be a directed solution rather than a result of the socioeconomic pressures presented as a result of magic, which I don't think falls within the premise here.

[gooddragon1]

Well, if there were a way to do it:

Get an atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal).

An undead with regeneration (only good aligned or sentient/living [weapons] can harm it with hit point damage) and many other nasty abilities.

It will likely trigger it's own little spectrepocalypse.

There's probably something in the HP verse that can take it on but I'm not sure what that would be.

[Drachasor]

I can't help but curse Harry's dangable lack of curiosity about magic. For 7 books about a magical world and a war against the most powerful dark wizard of all time there's not a lot of detail about high level magic -- almost none, really.

Imho, it really leaves too many unanswered questions in the air.

Heck, it would be easier to talk about Tippyverse Dresden Files.

[Hecuba]

Well, if there were a way to do it:

Get an atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal).

An undead with regeneration (only good aligned or sentient/living [weapons] can harm it with hit point damage) and many other nasty abilities.

It will likely trigger it's own little spectrepocalypse.

There's probably something in the HP verse that can take it on but I'm not sure what that would be.

If we take the canonical information on dementors to hold (they cannot be harmed and can only be repelled by one specific spell), then it becomes a question of whether or not it has a soul to eat.

It's an intelligent undead, so maybe.

Either way, the Tippyverse explicitly isn't Epic if IIRC. Considering the consensus is that a theoretical optimized Potterverse looses to the Tippyverse, there seems to be no cause to bring in the epic Tippyverse except spite.

[gooddragon1]

If we take the canonical information on dementors to hold (they cannot be harmed and can only be repelled by one specific spell), then it becomes a question of whether or not it has a soul to eat.

It's an intelligent undead, so maybe.

Either way, the Tippyverse explicitly isn't Epic if IIRC. Considering the consensus is that a theoretical optimized Potterverse looses to the Tippyverse, there seems to be no cause to bring in the epic Tippyverse except spite.

Didn't want to read through all the pages I admit. Wouldn't matter if it did have a soul to eat though as that's a necromancy effect to which undead are immune.

EDIT: I'm not sure whether tippyverse just means no epic characters or nothing above a certain amount though.

[Hecuba]

Didn't want to read through all the pages I admit. Wouldn't matter if it did have a soul to eat though as that's a necromancy effect to which undead are immune.

I'm not sure it would: it doesn't kill, it just eats the soul. The victim remains alive, but catatonic.

The closest parallel in D&D I can find is Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm), though that affects the body too.

Hum. Imprison Soul from HoH would be a better match, and is indeed necromancy.

[gooddragon1]

I'm not sure it would: it doesn't kill, it just eats the soul. The victim remains alive, but catatonic.

The closest parallel in D&D I can find is Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm), though that affects the body too.

Ninja'd :/

[BWR]

Tippyverse Potterverse

Anyone else feel 'Pottippyverse' is an acceptable contraction?:smalltongue:

[Hecuba]

The best know solution would likely be fiendfire, should it be possible to get close enough to cast it.
In fact, given that they are animated by magical energy, that's probably the general preferred option for undead (if the HP side were willing to risk it).

But again, an epic creature is overkill. The normal 20 cap wins simply because of the comparable dearth of high level effects effects available in the Potter-verse.

[Flickerdart]

Dementors aren't much of a threat - their abilities are fear effects, and immunity to fear is trivial.

[Drachasor]

Dementors aren't much of a threat - their abilities are fear effects, and immunity to fear is trivial.

Mmm, not quite. It's a "relive the worst moment of your life" effect. That's not the same thing as fear precisely (even if fear might play a role*). Mindblank should stop it though.

The suck out your soul bit is more worrisome, I'd think. And it isn't clear if they can be killed by any conventional means. Seems like they can be warded against though.

*Not sure that's magical fear at that point though.

[Flickerdart]

The soul drain is a melee-range attack, and seems to require a grapple, which means it can be disregarded completely.

[Eldariel]

Mmm, not quite. It's a "relive the worst moment of your life" effect. That's not the same thing as fear precisely (even if fear might play a role*). Mindblank should stop it though.

The suck out your soul bit is more worrisome, I'd think. And it isn't clear if they can be killed by any conventional means. Seems like they can be warded against though.

*Not sure that's magical fear at that point though.

Death Ward-type immunities should negate the attack; in D&D-terms it seems like a simple Level Drain though less permanent unless you actually die (Harry seemed to be fine with a little bit of rest after having his soul sucked out for a while by the Dementor). Fear's pretty irrelevant.

Dementors are nothing compared to Dread Wraiths or such for instance. Overall, they feel quite weak; simple midlevel incorporeal undead. Command Undead would probably work on them. They could probably also be destroyed with high level D&D magic, but if not, they could certainly be trapped or their essence stolen or whatever.

[Aharon]

What you are currently doing is, lacking a rule system for Potterverse, trying to convert Potterverse wizard powers to DnD effects.
Indeed, one of the comparisons that came up most often in this thread was "basically warlocks". Well, if we go that way, please note that they are warlocks that get a better version of the standard warlock item creation - namely one without xp and little time and gold costs. So if you go around and try to shoehorn the Dementor powers into the DnD system, you should also shoehorn the item creation ability of those wizards into the DnD system. It seems to be basically unlimited, and, as you are explicitly using the DnD rules for this comparison, opens up all DnD magic items as potentially creatable by Potterverse "Warlocks". Thus, they are basically artificers=>Tier 1=>Equal to Tippyverse.

[Flickerdart]

What you are currently doing is, lacking a rule system for Potterverse, trying to convert Potterverse wizard powers to DnD effects.
Indeed, one of the comparisons that came up most often in this thread was "basically warlocks". Well, if we go that way, please note that they are warlocks that get a better version of the standard warlock item creation - namely one without xp and little time and gold costs. So if you go around and try to shoehorn the Dementor powers into the DnD system, you should also shoehorn the item creation ability of those wizards into the DnD system. It seems to be basically unlimited, and, as you are explicitly using the DnD rules for this comparison, opens up all DnD magic items as potentially creatable by Potterverse "Warlocks". Thus, they are basically artificers=>Tier 1=>Equal to Tippyverse.
When do we see anyone in HP craft anything? I mean sure, they have time turners, and Ollivander, but other than that it's mostly potions. "They can craft some things = they can craft all the things" is fundamentally wrong.

[Aharon]

Could you clarify what you mean? Magic items are extremely common in Potterverse - they even have moving pictures and photographs in newspapers. Do you assume that all these magic items are just there, somehow? Of course they are created. And since most of the participants in this thread chose to use the DnD magic system to compare the two universes (which, I admit, is sensible) and the common perception is that Potterverse wizards most closely resemble Warlocks (which is also sensible), why not translate this extremely common ability to create magic items to the corresponding DnD ability - that is, fittingly, shared by the class Potterverse wizards were compared to anyway?

(A few examples of Magic Items: the Deathly Hallows, the flying ford Anglia, above mentioned newspapers, Alastor Moody's eye,...)

[Flickerdart]

The moving pictures are created by other magic items (cameras), not wizards themselves. Sure, someone might create the cameras, but given that there's two guys who make wands, there's probably only one camera guy in the entire society.

[Aharon]

The moving pictures are created by other magic items (cameras), not wizards themselves. Sure, someone might create the cameras, but given that there's two guys who make wands, there's probably only one camera guy in the entire society.

See the examples I edited in above. There are so numerous magic items that it's ludicrous to assume the ability to create them is not wide-spread. Every wizard and witch has a flying broom, for example!

[Flickerdart]

See above. There are so numerous magic items that it's ludicrous to assume the ability to create them is not wide-spread. Every wizard and witch has a flying broom, for example!
Every wizard has a wand, and how many wandmakers are there?

[Drachasor]

When do we see anyone in HP craft anything? I mean sure, they have time turners, and Ollivander, but other than that it's mostly potions. "They can craft some things = they can craft all the things" is fundamentally wrong.

I guess you didn't read the books?

Hermione makes magical coins and a magical paper contract. The Weasely boys make a lot of magical stuff. Dumbledore at least made the deluminater. That's just off the top of my head.

Crafting is not remotely difficult in the HP-verse.


Every wizard has a wand, and how many wandmakers are there?

Lots. There are just two that are acknowledged to be awesome at it; they're the best.

[Aharon]

Every wizard has a wand, and how many wandmakers are there?

The flying ford anglia clearly shows that an average wizard is able to create magic items of average quality.

And according to Quidditch through the ages, there are at least six broomstick companies. Note that this is a lower, not an upper limit.

[Daftendirekt]

Hermoine + Voldemort working together, with a time turner and the elder wand. Infinite chances to make things work, and Voldemort's already essentially a Lich. Hermoine could theoretically improve the process.

Now this is just an awesome premise.

[unseenmage]

I guess you didn't read the books?

Hermione makes magical coins and a magical paper contract. The Weasely boys make a lot of magical stuff. Dumbledore at least made the deluminater. That's just off the top of my head.

Crafting is not remotely difficult in the HP-verse.

I suspect he meant, 'When do we actually see someone actively craft anything?'

Most of the time the characters just kinda show up with whatever they are said to have crafted. We don't get to see much, if anything, actually get put together and crafted. For all we know all their magical crafting needs could be ritual or spell based with little to no physical components at all beyond a focus.

It stands to reason that even the flying car could have just been the result of a very complicated conjuration spell which pulled it right out of the mind of it's "creator".

The point is we really don't know the specifics of how their crafting works.

[Emmerask]

We know only of two guys != there are only two guys ^^

And its also highly unlikely that there are only 2,
Even if there are only 20 children in each year and that only in england that would mean that these two wandmaker would need to create

~3000 wands each year (if we assume that the world has a roughly equal amount of wizards).
How did Olivander ever create such a huge stock if there are only 2?

Those two might be the most famous but I think they are not the only ones^^

Also we dont know if there are only these 3 schools in europe, the only thing we know is that these are the three big schools that take part in the triwizard cup.

[Flickerdart]

Permanency + Fly on a car isn't crafting.

[Drachasor]

I suspect he meant, 'When do we actually see someone actively craft anything?'

Most of the time the characters just kinda show up with whatever they are said to have crafted. We don't get to see much, if anything, actually get put together and crafted. For all we know all their magical crafting needs could be ritual or spell based with little to no physical components at all beyond a focus.

It stands to reason that even the flying car could have just been the result of a very complicated conjuration spell which pulled it right out of the mind of it's "creator".

The point is we really don't know the specifics of how their crafting works.

We know the Ford was slowly worked on by Mr. Weasley (and it was originally a normal car). We know the Weasley twins do a lot of experimenting and work on getting their products right. It's said that physical items are used, though it said if any extra components are needed (save for potions, of course).


Permanency + Fly on a car isn't crafting.

It flies, turns invisible, doesn't run out of fuel, fits 8 people, has an extra-large trunk, etc.

[Aharon]

Permanency + Fly on a car isn't crafting.

Please be consistent in your use of DnD rules. Permanency can't be used on fly.

[Threadnaught]

Permanency + Fly on a car isn't crafting.

The car is also bigger on the inside and has an Invisibility function. It's an Intelligent Magic Item.


You didn't notice the part where it drove off on it's own?

[Eldariel]

What you are currently doing is, lacking a rule system for Potterverse, trying to convert Potterverse wizard powers to DnD effects.
Indeed, one of the comparisons that came up most often in this thread was "basically warlocks". Well, if we go that way, please note that they are warlocks that get a better version of the standard warlock item creation - namely one without xp and little time and gold costs. So if you go around and try to shoehorn the Dementor powers into the DnD system, you should also shoehorn the item creation ability of those wizards into the DnD system. It seems to be basically unlimited, and, as you are explicitly using the DnD rules for this comparison, opens up all DnD magic items as potentially creatable by Potterverse "Warlocks". Thus, they are basically artificers=>Tier 1=>Equal to Tippyverse.

Why would this open D&D magic items up to Potterverse? They can craft magic items and D&D magic items are also magic items but their ability to craft isn't comprehensive; they can craft magic items, not all magic items.

Indeed, the more logical approach would be seeing what we have seen in Potterverse (and on the flipside in Tippyverse for the other side) and assume those are all they can craft. I'm not transporting the worlds, I'm just trying to model the effects on a comparable platform for reasonable transparency (which seems surprisingly easy to achieve).


For the comparison to be relevant, both sides need to be restricted to the spells, the items, the creatures and the magic the sides are known to possess; transparency would lead to an irrelevant mirror match, and has no foundation to boot.

[Aharon]

Why would this open D&D magic items up to Potterverse? They can craft magic items and D&D magic items are also magic items but their ability to craft isn't comprehensive; they can craft magic items, not all magic items.

Indeed, the more logical approach would be seeing what we have seen in Potterverse (and on the flipside in Tippyverse for the other side) and assume those are all they can craft. I'm not transporting the worlds, I'm just trying to model the effects on a comparable platform for reasonable transparency (which seems surprisingly easy to achieve).


For the comparison to be relevant, both sides need to be restricted to the spells, the items, the creatures and the magic the sides are known to possess; transparency would lead to an irrelevant mirror match, and has no foundation to boot.

My point is that most posters here assume we should make this comparison by porting over Potterverse to DnD rules. You claim not to do so, but you're explicitly using the DnD system as frame of reference.

Alternatively, we could try porting Tippyverse to Potterverse, using one of the Potterverse PC or board games. However, I don't have any such rules at hand, unfortunately.

Therefor, using DnD as frame of reference is reasonalbe, but if we do so, we should do so completely, and not only when it's advantageous to Tippyverse. Warlocks are the best fit, so IMO, if we do the full translation, Potterverse wizards should be statted out as warlocks.

[Eldariel]

My point is that most posters here assume we should make this comparison by porting over Potterverse to DnD rules. You claim not to do so, but you're explicitly using the DnD system as frame of reference.

Alternatively, we could try porting Tippyverse to Potterverse, using one of the Potterverse PC or board games. However, I don't have any such rules at hand, unfortunately.

Therefor, using DnD as frame of reference is reasonalbe, but if we do so, we should do so completely, and not only when it's advantageous to Tippyverse. Warlocks are the best fit, so IMO, if we do the full translation, Potterverse wizards should be statted out as warlocks.

Well, their magic is similar to Warlocks at least but we should, of course, just model them based on their abilities instead of forcing them onto an existing class and handle all their abilities based on their functioning in Potterverse.

I feel we need to treat them as a custom class but we can use Warlock abilities as a baseline (most relevantly, model their magic as spell-likes).

[Aharon]

I still seem not to have made myself clear: by doing so, it's, in my opinion clear that Tippyverse will win. The universe we use for comparison will always be in advantage, which is why this approach is fundamentally flawed unless we do a full conversion - which leads to loss of exactness/information.#

But for the sake of having fun, I will try to map as many effects from Potterverse as possible to DnD, to see where we land. I expect the result will be far, far below Tippyverse.

I will base my post on the harry potter wiki (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/), which includes material from books, films and games as sources.

Tippyverse Potterverse:
Assumption one: Wandless magic is observed in the books. A Tippyverse Potterverse caster would only use wandless magic, as it is clearly superior by virtue of not being subject to disarming (Tom Riddle, a.k.a Lord Voldemort, also only performed wandless magic in the films, not counting the controlled magic he performed prior to going to Hogwarts. In the Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire film, Voldemort wandlessly knocked Harry to the ground, deflected Harry's Disarming Charm by waving his hand, and magically lifted Harry from the ground with one hand, apparently applying force to the latter's face whilst forcing him to his feet. He again used wandless magic on Harry in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, impatiently disarming the boy with a wave of his wand-free hand. In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2, Voldemort again used wandless magic to move a dead giant out of the way and to restrain Harry by using his cloak.)

Assumption two: the same is true for non-verbal spells. Our hypothetical Potippy-caster only casts non-verbally.

Spells:
Anapneo - Prevent Choking. No DnD equivalent. Protects against Dust of sneezing and choking?
Brackium Emendo/Ossio Dispersimus - Bestow Boneless Quality (Osteomancer, Dragon Compendium p. 82)
Episkey - Treat mild to moderate injuries: Cure Light Wounds?
Ferula - Binds and splints fractures: Also Cure Light wounds?
Reparifors - heals minor magically-induced ailments like paralysis: Remove Paralysis
Tergeo — spell for clearing up dried blood from a bleeding wound: Prestidigitation
Vulnera Sanentur — spell used to heal deep gashes like those caused by the curse Sectumsempra: Cure Moderate Wounds?
Accio — Telekinesis
Aguamenti - Create Water
Alarte Ascendare - Telekinesis
Albus Dumbledore's forceful spell - Bigby's Forceful Hand?
Alohomora - Knock
Antonin Dolohov's curse - Harm?
Aparecium - See invisible
Aqua Eructo - geyser effect of decanter of endless water with higher dc?
Arania Exumai - Repel vermin limited to arachnids?
Aresto Momentum - Paralysis?
Arrow-shooting spell - Launch Bolt
Ascendio - Levitate
Avada Kedavra - Power Word Kill without HP limit, but as a ray
Avifors - Polymorph, Bird only
Avis - Summon swarm (of birds)
Babbling Curse - Bothersome Babble (Complete Mage)
Bat-Bogey Hex - Summon swarm (of batlike bogies)
Baubillious - Light of Lunia
Bedazzling Hex - equivalent to hide enchantment on armor
Smashing spell - Kelgore's Fire bolt/orb of fire
Bewitched Snowballs - Snilloc's snowball swarm
Bluebell Flames - Light
Bombarda - same as smashing spell
Bombarda Maxima - delayed blast fireball?
Bubble-Head Charm - reproduces effect of necklace of adaptation
Bubble-producing spell - ???
Calvario - ???
Cantis - as Bothersome Babble, except target sings instead of babbling
Carpe Retractum - Animate Rope without needing a target rope
Cascading Jinx - Ball lightning?
Caterwauling Charm - Alarm
Cauldron to Sieve - Polymorph any Object, with limited target and limited form the object can be changed to.
Cave Inimicum - Greater Alarm?
Cheering Charm - Good Hope /Tasha's hideous laughter
Cistem Aperio - Knock
Colloportus - Arcane Lock
Colloshoo - Stun
Colovaria - Prestidigitation
Confringo - Shatter/Disintegrate and fireball?
Confundo - Confusion
Conjunctivitis Curse - Contagion, Blinding sickness only?
Cornflake skin spell - Contagion, Red ache?
Cracker Jinx -
Cribbing Spell -
Crucio - targeted symbol of pain
Mucus ad Nauseam -
Cushioning Charm -
Defodio - Passwall/Soften Earth and Stone
Deletrius - Dispel Magic?
Densaugeo -
Depulso - Telekinesis

Off to bed... To be continued. HP Wizards seem astoundingly versatile from A to D, I think they would fit in well in a mid-op campaign. Among the spells I have reviewed up to date, there aren't any gamechangers that would allow them to win against Tippyverse.

[Flickerdart]

What does said wizard have that will stop Tippy's favourite spell - Eschewed Materials'd Ice Assassin?

[Elderand]

The crafting aspect of HP can be equalled relatively easily.
Between thought bottle chaining, farming wishes to get magic items, dark craft xp and gold from repeated sacrifice. (Demiplane with fast time, put in a couple people, mind rape them into reproducing and you got an ultra fast breeding perpetual XP situation) crafting is essentialy free for the tippyverse.

And now the situation in crafting is nowhere near remotly equal because what can be achieved with crafting in DnD blow out of the water whatever can be crafted in the HP verse.

These discussion go back and forth but effectively, the tippyverse can match and counter everything the HP verse can make while the reverse is far from true.

[tiercel]

The problem with this comparison is that we know what generally no-op Potterverse looks like and Tippyverse-flavor D&D looks like, but that's not a fair comparison.

What we don't know is what Tippyverse-flavor Potterverse would look like. (e.g., "Forget the Deathly Hallows, Voldemort's master plan should have been to build a bundle of a thousand wands, use a potion to enlarge his hand, Apparate next to Hogwarts and Avada-Kedavra the entire chateau into a crater."reference (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=508) and then dial it up to eleven).

As has been mentioned, we could compare low-op D&D to vanilla Potterverse (where Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) has already been mentioned); Milo is a "munchkin" with a few op tricks but woefully optimized in other regards. Even so, even at the low-to-mid levels he is comparable to Potterverse wizards, and one suspects that the D&D quadratic/exponential wizard progression is a lot steeper than the Potterverse one.

If nothing else, the Unforgiveables seem directly defeatable by D&D magic (protection from evil/mind blank, limited wish: death ward, and limited wish: favor of the martyr/Ilmater, though spamming limited wish directly is not something one would wish to have to do a lot without XP exploits).

[gooddragon1]

The best know solution would likely be fiendfire, should it be possible to get close enough to cast it.
In fact, given that they are animated by magical energy, that's probably the general preferred option for undead (if the HP side were willing to risk it).

But again, an epic creature is overkill. The normal 20 cap wins simply because of the comparable dearth of high level effects effects available in the Potter-verse.


Regeneration (Ex)

Atropals take normal damage from good weapons or sentient weapons (or otherwise living weapons).



Regeneration (Ex)

A pit fiend takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

Only weapons are effective against it's regeneration.

EDIT: Of course perhaps an effect like veraverto on a rat could produce a flail that could fulfill the requirements.

[Xar Zarath]

Well if we can always compare and contrast the HP D20...
https://sites.google.com/site/harrypotterd20/
would it not be easier then to better flesh out the VS thread?

And to the Fiendfyre spell or is it called charm?, would energy immunity-fire work?

[Emmerask]

Only weapons are effective against it's regeneration.

EDIT: Of course perhaps an effect like veraverto on a rat could produce a flail that could fulfill the requirements.

Well fiend(whatever its spelled) fyre is living fire pretty much, if it would be considered a living spell it might not work (duno about the ruling there)
but if its more like a stylized fire elemental then it could hurt the Atropal.

The main issue (again) is that we do not know what a spell/ability/item would be considered if we translate it to d&d, we can only guess.

/edit on another thought with all the wand lore etc etc wands could very well be considered sentient weapons, question would be if the sentient property is conveyed to ray attacks made with the weapon?

[Hecuba]

Only weapons are effective against it's regeneration.

EDIT: Of course perhaps an effect like veraverto on a rat could produce a flail that could fulfill the requirements.

I would think fiendfire can safely manage more than 35 damage per round to overcome the DR and Regeneration. And it will keep burning as long as there is magic for it to burn (the atropal seems fairly magical).

[gooddragon1]

I would think fiendfire can safely manage more than 35 damage per round to overcome the DR and Regeneration. And it will keep burning as long as there is magic for it to burn (the atropal seems fairly magical).

That's not the problem:


Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid (the regeneration entry lists the exceptions), deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away.

It converts all damage not dealt by those weapons (and only weapons not effects or spells) to nonlethal damage no matter how much it is.


Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain.

As a result it converts all damage except from the specified sources to nonlethal but it is immune to nonlethal. It could walk on the surface of the sun or take billions of points of damage or even an infinite amount without taking any if it weren't the right type. Combined with the immunities of being an undead and the immunities of an abomination make it difficult to defeat. It's not so hard for a 3.5 wizard to find a way but with the more limited nature of hpverse might be more difficult.

Also:
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29000000/Rat-flail-vg-cats-29008749-200-200.jpg

[Emmerask]

Either its a reference I just dont get or your spoiler is empty :smallbiggrin:

Ah I see now, you tried an image, some websites (ie where you saved or got the image) dont allow embedding their images that way sadly, while the user ie you sees it because its in the cache :-/

[Agrippa]

I seem to remember that the Killing Curse can be blocked by physical objects. So it would be a normal ranged attack and not a ranged touch attack.

[Drachasor]

I seem to remember that the Killing Curse can be blocked by physical objects. So it would be a normal ranged attack and not a ranged touch attack.

In D&D if someone threw a shield into the air to intercept a scorching ray (and the DM allowed it), then that would probably stop the ray. That doesn't mean it isn't a touch attack. If AK hits you, you are dead -- no defenses can stop it short of an extremely special set of circumstances.

I am not sure if an object ever intercepted AK, besides cover. An animated object did and a pheonix did, but that's it as best I recall.

[Reddish Mage]

Just a random comment but what does it say about D&D if Harry Potter wizards are much less munchkinish and exploitable than D&D arcane casters?

[Threadnaught]

What does said wizard have that will stop Tippy's favourite spell - Eschewed Materials'd Ice Assassin?

He doesn't use Eschew Materials (no effect) for Ice Assassin, he uses a Spell Component Pouch so he can avoid the bodypart cost. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Just a random comment but what does it say about D&D if Harry Potter wizards are much less munchkinish and exploitable than D&D arcane casters?

Narrative, vaguely established system versus rules-heavy precisely defined, poorly balanced system? I don't know where you get munchkinism from but naturally D&D is going to have more potential power simply because D&D has magic designed in a very open-ended manner and simply far more spells for different purposes (3.5 alone has probably thousands of spells, versus the under 100 seen in HPverse).

[Aharon]

Narrative, vaguely established system versus rules-heavy precisely defined, poorly balanced system? I don't know where you get munchkinism from but naturally D&D is going to have more potential power simply because D&D has magic designed in a very open-ended manner and simply far more spells for different purposes (3.5 alone has probably thousands of spells, versus the under 100 seen in HPverse).

Actually, there are likely a lot more than 100 spells seen - I only managed to compile those up to D and am already at 58 spells. So a rough estimate would put the number of observed spells somewhere between 250 and 500, assuming a somewhat equal distribution of spell names over starting letters (yes, I know there aren't that many spells that start with 'z' - thus the large confidence interval).
However, many of those spells have extremely similar effects (Bombarda and the smashing spell, for example, are functionally identical, as are alohomora and cistem aperio).

After looking into it, I concur that an optimization of observed potterverse would be on-par with mid-op dnd - they get unlimited at-wills, as warlocks do - but they gain access to between 250 and 500 spell-likes, which gives sufficient versatility for most situations even if some of those spell-likes are functionally identical.

An optimization of implied potterverse (or, as another poster called it, Potippyverse) is hard to gauge, in my opinion: Spell research exists in that universe, but we are never, ever given even the slightest indication of the rules behind that research, knowing only that it exists and that skilled student-level practitioners (Snape, Hermione) can practice spell research.
One (extremely shaky way) to establish boundaries of HP-Spell Research for the purpose of discussion might be to continue my above list, find out what the level equivalent of the highest level effect HP-wizards can produce is, and set this as the upper limit of spell research.
After that, we run into issues of the DnD system - namely that Gate is far more powerful than Meteor Swarm...

If we leave spell research out completely, that would be like ignoring, say, Gate and Teleport Circle in a discussion of the upper bounds of power possible in DnD.

[Flickerdart]

Spell research exists in that universe, but we are never, ever given even the slightest indication of the rules behind that research, knowing only that it exists and that skilled student-level practitioners (Snape) can practice spell research.
Snape's spells were extremely underwhelming from a D&D standpoint, though, so even if we allow for spell research, it's pretty clear that even very bright wizards can't go beyond a certain limit.

[Elderand]

Actually, there are likely a lot more than 100 spells seen - I only managed to compile those up to D and am already at 58 spells. So a rough estimate would put the number of observed spells somewhere between 250 and 500, assuming a somewhat equal distribution of spell names over starting letters (yes, I know there aren't that many spells that start with 'z' - thus the large confidence interval).
However, many of those spells have extremely similar effects (Bombarda and the smashing spell, for example, are functionally identical, as are alohomora and cistem aperio).

After looking into it, I concur that an optimization of observed potterverse would be on-par with mid-op dnd - they get unlimited at-wills, as warlocks do - but they gain access to between 250 and 500 spell-likes, which gives sufficient versatility for most situations even if some of those spell-likes are functionally identical.

An optimization of implied potterverse (or, as another poster called it, Potippyverse) is hard to gauge, in my opinion: Spell research exists in that universe, but we are never, ever given even the slightest indication of the rules behind that research, knowing only that it exists and that skilled student-level practitioners (Snape, Hermione) can practice spell research.
One (extremely shaky way) to establish boundaries of HP-Spell Research for the purpose of discussion might be to continue my above list, find out what the level equivalent of the highest level effect HP-wizards can produce is, and set this as the upper limit of spell research.
After that, we run into issues of the DnD system - namely that Gate is far more powerful than Meteor Swarm...

If we leave spell research out completely, that would be like ignoring, say, Gate and Teleport Circle in a discussion of the upper bounds of power possible in DnD.

Actually no it wouldn't be like ignoring gate because gate is an already established spell. Ignoring spell research in HP is strictly like ignoring spell research in DnD nothing more or less. IE both side have access to what's been published for them.

[Aharon]

Snape's spells were extremely underwhelming from a D&D standpoint, though, so even if we allow for spell research, it's pretty clear that even very bright wizards can't go beyond a certain limit.

Yes, that is true for the spells Snape created. However, I'm working on the assumption that all spells were researched, therefore, we should take the most powerful ones as an upper limit if we try to answer the original question (Tippyverse Potterverse).

Indeed, the idea that all spells have been researched at some time is supported by the fact that the natural state of Potterverse magic is accidental, uncontrolled magic that children exhibit.

[Elderand]

Yes, that is true for the spells Snape created. However, I'm working on the assumption that all spells were researched, therefore, we should take the most powerful ones as an upper limit if we try to answer the original question (Tippyverse Potterverse).

Indeed, the idea that all spells have been researched at some time is supported by the fact that the natural state of Potterverse magic is accidental, uncontrolled magic that children exhibit.

And it doesn't matter one bit, if you allow spell research on one side you have to allow it on the other and if you do it's all up in the wind with what's possible or not. The only valid answer is to limit both side to pre existing spell and compare those.

[Aharon]

Actually no it wouldn't be like ignoring gate because gate is an already established spell. Ignoring spell research in HP is strictly like ignoring spell research in DnD nothing more or less. IE both side have access to what's been published for them.

Gate is an established fact of Tippyverse, while spell research is extremely rare because it requires DM intervention.
Spell research is an established fact of Potterverse, while very powerful spells like Gate are extremely rare because they make it harder for the narrator to establish a believable story.

DnD and Potterverse work differently and have different established facts, and if we try at all to make this comparison, we should try to consider these differences when making it.


...and if you do it's all up in the wind with what's possible or not.

Yes, that would be the result of trying to convert the widespread ability of Potterverse casters to DnD and turning it up to 11 as in the scenario stated by the OP (Potippyverse...).

[Eldariel]

Actually, there are likely a lot more than 100 spells seen - I only managed to compile those up to D and am already at 58 spells. So a rough estimate would put the number of observed spells somewhere between 250 and 500, assuming a somewhat equal distribution of spell names over starting letters (yes, I know there aren't that many spells that start with 'z' - thus the large confidence interval).
However, many of those spells have extremely similar effects (Bombarda and the smashing spell, for example, are functionally identical, as are alohomora and cistem aperio).

Huh. Well, I'll be; I guess I just never picked 'em all up.


If we leave spell research out completely, that would be like ignoring, say, Gate and Teleport Circle in a discussion of the upper bounds of power possible in DnD.

Doesn't D&D have at least equal spell research and new magic item potential, if not greater? These are usually just ignored 'cause they're effectively limitless and remove any baseline to work off, just like Potterverse's.

[Drachasor]

Just a random comment but what does it say about D&D if Harry Potter wizards are much less munchkinish and exploitable than D&D arcane casters?

Eh, they can blow up planets with a Time Turner. Finely tuned extreme power is harder.

Edit: Real World Physics is in HP, which allows some crazy stuff.

[Aharon]

Doesn't D&D have at least equal spell research and new magic item potential, if not greater? These are usually just ignored 'cause they're effectively limitless and remove any baseline to work off.

Yes, that is true. If we only look at established spell effects, Potterverse (PV) would be equivalent of mid-op DnD and lose against Tippyverse.

Obviously, open ended abilities always greatly increase power (Gate, Manipulate Form,...). Spell Research, by its very nature, is more open ended than most other abilities, but more frequent in the books because Rowling can arbitrarily limit the power of magic whenever she wants.
Do you have an idea how we could port this ability, maybe taking away some of its open-endedness, but still showing that it's a capability PV has? You suggested a limit on magic item creation that's sensible for this discussion (only the magic items observed in PV are assumed to be creatable with the given, far less xp-, time- and gold-intensive process), but here, we explicitly want to implement the ability to generate new effects.

[unseenmage]

Yes, that is true. If we only look at established spell effects, Potterverse (PV) would be equivalent of mid-op DnD and lose against Tippyverse.

Obviously, open ended abilities always greatly increase power (Gate, Manipulate Form,...). Spell Research, by its very nature, is more open ended than most other abilities, but more frequent in the books because Rowling can arbitrarily limit the power of magic whenever she wants.
Do you have an idea how we could port this ability, maybe taking away some of its open-endedness, but still showing that it's a capability PV has? You suggested a limit on magic item creation that's sensible for this discussion (only the magic items observed in PV are assumed to be creatable with the given, far less xp-, time- and gold-intensive process), but here, we explicitly want to implement the ability to generate new effects.

Could just call J.K. Rowling.

But facetiousness aside, the limit is that there is no limit. neither D&D 3.x nor the Harry Potter novels ever published more rules for creating new spells than, ask the DM/author.

Unless you're willing to port in one of the myriad third party rulesets on the subject but then, again, it's a can of worms probably best left unopened.

[Elderand]

Gate is an established fact of Tippyverse, while spell research is extremely rare because it requires DM intervention.
Spell research is an established fact of Potterverse, while very powerful spells like Gate are extremely rare because they make it harder for the narrator to establish a believable story.

That's just not how it work logicly.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

What you're doing is this :
We should allow HP verse spell research because we can see proof it happen in the book. Therefore it's an integral part of it.
Then you compare it to : DnD research is different because it require a DM.

The real comparaison are those:
New spell in the HP verse are limited by the author
New spells in DnD are limited by the DM

Those two are equals.

And then
Spell research is well established in the HP verse: we see evidence Snape and Voldemort did it.
Spell research is well established in DnD: we see evidence Mordenkainen, Bigby's, Kelgore and countless other did it.

Those two are also equal. But argument from 1 are not equals to arguments from 2. One is a metagame issue the other is an in story possibility.

[Venger]

Eh, they can blow up planets with a Time Turner. Finely tuned extreme power is harder.

Edit: Real World Physics is in HP, which allows some crazy stuff.

Real world physics, as evidenced by geminio, is decidedly NOT in HP.

[Drachasor]

Real world physics, as evidenced by geminio, is decidedly NOT in HP.

? Sure it is. Magic just allows some exceptions.

[Agrippa]

In D&D if someone threw a shield into the air to intercept a scorching ray (and the DM allowed it), then that would probably stop the ray. That doesn't mean it isn't a touch attack. If AK hits you, you are dead -- no defenses can stop it short of an extremely special set of circumstances.

I am not sure if an object ever intercepted AK, besides cover. An animated object did and a pheonix did, but that's it as best I recall.

This page (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Killing_Curse) gives some more details on the Killing Curse and the ability to block it.

[Emperor Tippy]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-magical-awakening-hp-si.246476/

My take on the Potterverse, although that involves a fair amount of stuff that was pretty much made up whole cloth by me (although none of it actually conflicts with canon).

---
The Potterverse is theoretically one of the most powerful 'verses in fiction. Some of the shown spells and effects are simply incredible.

Fidelius protected Horocrux's with yourself as the Secret Keeper. If you can not destroy souls (and possibly even then, depending upon the mechanics of how Horocrux's actually work) then you can not ever kill a wizard, and all wizards have Unbreakable Vows made with other wizards to restore them to bodies after "death".

The Fidelius, in canon, makes it impossible for a piece of information to exist outside of the mind of the Secret Keeper or anyone that they pass the information along to. We only see it applied to hiding locations, and even then it gives you utterly safe bases of operation and communities, but it may well be applicable to any bit of information. The potential abuses of such a thing should be obvious.

---
In D&D terms, HP wizards don't fit. They can learn new spells pretty much as fast as D&D wizards. They can use any spell that they know at any time with nothing more than a thought and with no limitations on the number of times that they can use it. Just using spells directly shown in the series an HP wizard a year out of Hogwarts could easily be throwing down with high level D&D. They are missing some critical protections for high level play but they are, at worst, the most powerful Tier 3 class.

Throw on a modern understanding of physics and Voldemort/Dumbledore's level of magical knowledge and you have a solid tier 1.5 ability wise.

----
But even at its absolute best, the Potterverse can't throw down with high end D&D 3.5 magic.

A single level 20 optimized tippyverse wizard is more than sufficient to defeat the entirety of a maximum optimization Potterverse.

[Drachasor]

This page (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Killing_Curse) gives some more details on the Killing Curse and the ability to block it.

Point is, armor isn't going to block it, so it isn't a ranged attack. It is definitely ranged touch.

[Flickerdart]

Fidelius protected Horocrux's with yourself as the Secret Keeper.
Isn't that still vulnerable to wide-scale annihilation, and also the whole "splitting your soul is bad juju" bit?

[Quorothorn]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-magical-awakening-hp-si.246476/

My take on the Potterverse, although that involves a fair amount of stuff that was pretty much made up whole cloth by me (although none of it actually conflicts with canon).

---
The Potterverse is theoretically one of the most powerful 'verses in fiction. Some of the shown spells and effects are simply incredible.

Fidelius protected Horocrux's with yourself as the Secret Keeper. If you can not destroy souls (and possibly even then, depending upon the mechanics of how Horocrux's actually work) then you can not ever kill a wizard, and all wizards have Unbreakable Vows made with other wizards to restore them to bodies after "death".

The Fidelius, in canon, makes it impossible for a piece of information to exist outside of the mind of the Secret Keeper or anyone that they pass the information along to. We only see it applied to hiding locations, and even then it gives you utterly safe bases of operation and communities, but it may well be applicable to any bit of information. The potential abuses of such a thing should be obvious.

---
In D&D terms, HP wizards don't fit. They can learn new spells pretty much as fast as D&D wizards. They can use any spell that they know at any time with nothing more than a thought and with no limitations on the number of times that they can use it. Just using spells directly shown in the series an HP wizard a year out of Hogwarts could easily be throwing down with high level D&D. They are missing some critical protections for high level play but they are, at worst, the most powerful Tier 3 class.

Throw on a modern understanding of physics and Voldemort/Dumbledore's level of magical knowledge and you have a solid tier 1.5 ability wise.

----
But even at its absolute best, the Potterverse can't throw down with high end D&D 3.5 magic.

A single level 20 optimized tippyverse wizard is more than sufficient to defeat the entirety of a maximum optimization Potterverse.

Well, unless we somehow gain the attention of Ms. Rowling herself (lolol), I think we just got the closest thing possible to an "official opinion", what. :smallbiggrin:

[Xar Zarath]

Well, unless we somehow gain the attention of Ms. Rowling herself (lolol), I think we just got the closest thing possible to an "official opinion", what. :smallbiggrin:

That's true. When the Emperor come to your thread I think that pretty much sums it up.:smallbiggrin:

Though I do wonder if incorporeal undead like shadows/wraiths/spectres etc were to be created and then set loose in the Potterverse, would they be able to fight them? would Patronus charm even affect such undead?

[Xar Zarath]

And the Harry Potter D20 should be a great way to compare and contrast DnD 3.5e or at least it should be able to...:smallredface:

[Drachasor]

That's true. When the Emperor come to your thread I think that pretty much sums it up.:smallbiggrin:

Though I do wonder if incorporeal undead like shadows/wraiths/spectres etc were to be created and then set loose in the Potterverse, would they be able to fight them? would Patronus charm even affect such undead?

We don't even know if Dementors are undead.