OOTS #897 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Nymrod]

Awesome. No possession or ridiculous splices. Just an empty shell left:)

Also I love that scene from Goldfinger!

[dric_dolphin]

Wow, nice twist! And I was wrong! :elan:

What will be the nice step? KRAKAKOON?:smalltongue:

[cc_kizz]

Dangit! That's mean.

[Hogwarts9876]

Wow, I'd never even considered that they were just going to hold him in Hell. Great development!

[Mido]

Okay, I still can't read what them IFCC guys are planning, but this can't be good. The plot thickens... further.

Oh, man, the wait for the next comics cannot be longer. Things have just picked up and I just want to know what happens already. But I'll find a way to cope. Great webcomic Mr. Burlew, has me hooked bad. :smallwink:

[IamL]

Well, crap.
V just got fine-printed.

[Murk]

I certainly agree with everyone saying this is cool.

This is cool.

[nolron]

Wait, they're not possessing V? That's surprising. And disturbing.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Hmm why wouldn't they use him for something instead of waisting the 23 minutes holding him doing nothing?

[Gift Jeraff]

Ohhh, snap! And I take it the whole "What happens in the afterlife, stays in the afterlife" memory plot point will cause V and Blackwing to have a foggy memory of all this, allowing them to do it again some point later.

[The Succubus]

Hmm why wouldn't they use him for something instead of waisting the 23 minutes holding him doing nothing?

"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul in it would be a gross violation of our contract."

That's why the fiends can't possess V's body. I suspect this maybe something V could use later on, though.

[heronbpv]

Wonder if the IFCC guys do know what lies beyond the gates... or they just fundamentally want the world to be undone by the snarl for some reason. :smallconfused:

[Nymrod]

Plus if they possessed V and he knew, he'd consider himself a danger to the Order and separate himself from them. Know he has no reason to do that. He may be a momentary liability ofc but he cannot be actively used against them so it is in his best interest to stay with them (as long as he tells Roy everything ofc so he knows he cannot depend on V being there).

[elros]

They may be evil, but the IFCC is honorable. I love seeing how the different strands of the stories weave together, especially for the intelligent characters.

I definitely thought they would use V's body for evil, and that twist was awesome. Especially since the Giant must of planned this years in advance!

[Zordrath]

Oh dear. Didn't expect them to just hold him, but when nothing more is required...

Though wouldn't one of the shorter splices have sufficed here? They're cashing in their largest debt already, it can't take the OOtS that long to destroy the Gate.

[Needle]

I want to know what kind of chat will Sabine and V have while watching the show :smallbiggrin:

[Nymrod]

Wonder if the IFCC guys do know what lies beyond the gates... or they just fundamentally want the world to be undone by the snarl for some reason. :smallconfused:

Or they could just be buying time. They do not want anyone to win; they may simply agree with Roy on this.

[Nymrod]

Oh dear. Didn't expect them to just hold him, but when nothing more is required...

Though wouldn't one of the shorter splices have sufficed here? They're cashing in their largest debt already, it can't take the OOtS that long to destroy the Gate.

Who says they need to cash it all in at once?

Another thing. Either Gift is right and V will remember next to nothing, or they intentionally want V to know that Sabine is part of their crew.

[Rakoa]

Very nice twist.

[Mike Havran]

Hm, V got off the hook easily. What's the worst that can happen there while she watches, something that should worry her?

[hamishspence]

Interesting. Looks like those who thought the IFCC only want to take V out of action for a short time, were right.

[Morty]

"You assumed and we saw no need to correct."

Classic. Sometimes, no trickery on the fiends' part will screw you over as badly as your own assumptions will.

[Leirus]

Hm, V got off the hook easily. What's the worst that can happen there while she watches, something that should worry her?

Tons of bad things. The fact that the IFCC want the door destroyed means that he should be very worried about it. I wonder if he will be able to come clean with the order about the whole deal with them. And Familicide.

But yes, I kind of expected a possession, too.

[Hardcore]

Exquisite. The "Now" of the previous strip was very ominous, but this anti-climax was just great!

Love it.

[Mr White]

Hmmm ... Have the IFCC knowledge of what's inside the rifts? Do they know about the world inside or are the expecting the Snarl?

[undead hero]

Why are the IFCC my favorite characters.... Oh that's right, they are made of pure evil and awesome.
:D

[Surfing HalfOrc]

"Before I kill you Mr/Ms. Vaarsuvius..."

Yeah, I saw that movie! :smallwink:

[Edhelras]

Now WHAT???

I'm getting all dizzy by all this... Is blowing up the gate good, or bad, for OOTS and the world in general?
Are those devils/demons good, or are they (as one would suppose) Evil?

Gah... I need to get an answer to this mess soon! now! Please Giant, what about another seven-in-a-row, what about right now???

[theNater]

Wait, they're not possessing V? That's surprising. And disturbing.
And classy. I mean, not just refraining from possession, but even shielding the body from harm. If I ever sell my soul, I hope the fiends on my case are such good sports.

[Garwain]

Letting V watch to what (s)he thinks might cause another genocide is just cruel.

I didn't got the BOGO reference....

On the plus side: it looks like V will survive the KRABOOM as his body is shielded. Belkar not so much.

And it took a while to understand the art: V's spirit being janked out of his body and then dragged down. But once I saw that, it's actually really clever.

[Belwynn]

Letting V watch to what he thinks might cause another genocide is just cruel. And poor Blackwing!

I didn't got the BOGO reference....

On the plus side: it looks like V will survive the KRABOOM as his body is shielded. Belkar not so much.

BOGO = Buy one, get one free.

[gerryq]

Another thing. Either Gift is right and V will remember next to nothing, or they intentionally want V to know that Sabine is part of their crew.

Maybe it's just a sort of waiting room in Hell. Though in general I agree that it would be a bad idea to accidentally put Sabine and Varsuvius in contact if they will remember everything, because they might inadvertently learn something to their mutual benefit and their masters' detriment.

[Anarion]

Well done, Giant. I did not see that coming and I'm surprised the IFCC want destruction rather than control of a gate.

Also, Sabine's expression of surprise is priceless.

[hamishspence]

It's interesting that V's being told "Welcome to Hell" rather than "Welcome to the Abyss" - given that it's Cedrik, the demon with the orange speech bubbles, who's exercising his option.

Maybe they can pull V's soul to wherever they are.

[gerryq]

And classy. I mean, not just refraining from possession, but even shielding the body from harm. If I ever sell my soul, I hope the fiends on my case are such good sports.

If their ownership is on-going, they are just protecting their property.

[tadkins]

I really liked that stretchy effect used on V as he was getting sucked into Hell.

[Shale]

Seems like they're going to reserve the right to take V in two separate instances, rather than all at once, which would have the side benefit of making the elf completely aware that any moment could bring an unexpected trip to Hell which cannot be avoided or guarded against. And you thought crippling self-doubt was a problem before!

[Edhelras]

Maybe it's just a sort of waiting room in Hell. Though in general I agree that it would be a bad idea to accidentally put Sabine and Varsuvius in contact if they will remember everything, because they might inadvertently learn something to their mutual benefit and their masters' detriment.

Or maybe the IFCC has such devilish plans for the immediate future (concerning V, the OOTS or the LG or the entire world!) that whatever V learns at this point will be inconsequential.

[knittch]

I can't remember if that last line is a jab at LotR or Dragonlance. I remember the Silvanesti being very antisocial almost to the point of violence, but the elves in LotR always seemed to take a more vocal support for Sauron's destruction.

[Nymrod]

Or maybe the IFCC has such devilish plans for the immediate future (concerning V, the OOTS or the LG or the entire world!) that whatever V learns at this point will be inconsequential.

That's not how magnificent bastards work. Everything they do is intentional. If V is expected to remember then they have a reason to have her meet Sabine there.

And really, meeting Sabine should put V even further off balance. Suddenly, every action of the Linear Guild seems guided by the IFCC to V. He has to reinterpret everything he knows about Nale and his team as well as the nature of the contract he entered. It certainly tells him that if Sabine works for the IFCC, then the fact that they approached him was planned well in advance.

[The E]

I can't remember if that last line is a jab at LotR or Dragonlance. I remember the Silvanesti being very antisocial almost to the point of violence, but the elves in LotR always seemed to take a more vocal support for Sauron's destruction.

The last line refers to V's alignment.

[Killer Angel]

It's definitely a great strip. I like the way it's drawn V.'s dragging, and the paraphrasing is a touch of class... decisely, in IFCC's style.

[theNater]

If their ownership is on-going, they are just protecting their property.
Even so, not all fiends are that careful with their toys.

[CRtwenty]

Well I suppose there's worse things that can happen to you in the Lower Planes than being forced to watch television with Sabine. V probably doesn't think so though.

[Edhelras]

I can't remember if that last line is a jab at LotR or Dragonlance. I remember the Silvanesti being very antisocial almost to the point of violence, but the elves in LotR always seemed to take a more vocal support for Sauron's destruction.

It's a quote attributed to Edmund Burke: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke (maybe everybody knows that? although apparently the quote is somewhat disputed).

As for the LotR: The Elves of Middle-Earth really did their best, and sacrified the most, to oppose Morgoth and later Sauron. You could argue that some of them, at times, chose a strategy of avoidance and concealment, in stead of actual confrontation. For instance Elu Thingol and the Girdle of Doriath. And if I remember correctly, the Men of Gondor might blame the Elves of Eriador, hiding in their hidden strongholds, while Gondor lay directly across the river from Sauron's forces in Gondor (I think this was part of Boromir's speech in the Council of Elrond?). But looking at the long lines of the history of the Elves of Middle Earth, they did repeatedly stand up against the forces of Evil, and sacrified their best warriors in that fight.

[Hopeless]

So will they stop V and Sabine chatting?:smallwink:

I mean I assume she'll be able to head back at some point but I was wondering if her reaction would be to race back to Nale, grab him and flee the area without telling Tarquin & co anything so they can escape the blast radius?

I wonder how Tarquin would take being killed out of hand with no chance of accomplishing what he explained to Elan?:smallamused:

And what if Girard's Gate isn't the one Xykon's heading to next?

Personally I'm wondering if Xykon turns up after the destruction and openly wonder where the Gate is since he has no idea the Gate was blown up and the time he would have taken to immediately head to the last gate is extended because he assumes Girard has hidden the Gate and he doesn't learn otherwise until the Giant is ready to have him move on?:smallsmile:

[factotum]

BOGO = Buy one, get one free.

I usually see that referred to as BOGOF--is it different in the States?

As for the strip, classic. It's looking like the IFCC have a vested interest in either allowing all the Gates to be destroyed, or in directing everyone on to Kraagor's Gate--difficult to tell which at this stage.

@ Hopeless: Sabine can't return to the mortal realm until 24 hours after Durkon's Holy Word, so unless a lot more time has elapsed than we think, she's not doing anything with Nale.

[GrimoireM]

Notice how the IFCC only mentioned V's body. It's possible Blackwing can still be killed if Roy destroys the Gate.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have a question, and it's possible we just don't have the entire picture, even now.

If their plan was to keep V from intervening to protect the gate, then why would it have been a waste if Xykon won their fight?

It's possible the other 25 minutes may require a more active use of V's soul.

[Gift Jeraff]

If V and Blackwing do forget everything that they witness in Hell, then on the bright side (for us readers), the archfiends could be willing to exposit some details of their evil plan.

Also, they say nothing about shielding Blackwing's body, so if they really do want Qarr to take him out of the picture, now might be a good opportunity.

[factotum]

If their plan was to keep V from intervening to protect the gate, then why would it have been a waste if Xykon won their fight?


The IFCC are not able to see the future like the Oracle can--they made that clear when they said it was their assessment of the situation that Darth V would go after Xykon, but they weren't 100% sure. Therefore, they have to hedge their bets. If Xykon had killed V the phylactery wouldn't have been lost, and who knows what would have happened in that case? Certainly not them!

[talkamancer]

Well that ends lots of arguements.

[CoffeeIncluded]

And at the same time they're making V watch. Talk about twisting the knife.

Thanks for the unintended birthday present, Giant!

[zimmerwald1915]

Interesting. Looks like those who thought the IFCC only want to take V out of action for a short time, were right.
Now now, don't be modest. As I recall, you were one of those people.


And classy. I mean, not just refraining from possession, but even shielding the body from harm. If I ever sell my soul, I hope the fiends on my case are such good sports.
It may be shielded from harm for the duration of V's stay, but if Girard's Gate explodes with anything like the violence of Soon's, V's body will still be buried under tons of rock and debris. She might have a devil of a time getting out again once the IFCC release her soul.


And at the same time they're making V watch. Talk about twisting the knife.

Thanks for the unintended birthday present, Giant!
Happy birthday, Coffee!

[Shale]

I have a question, and it's possible we just don't have the entire picture, even now.

If their plan was to keep V from intervening to protect the gate, then why would it have been a waste if Xykon won their fight?

It's possible the other 25 minutes may require a more active use of V's soul.

It probably wouldn't have been so bad if Xykon had executed V and O-Chul, but if he'd just flat-out kicked V's ass and never lost the phylactery, then he wouldn't have been knocked out of his rut. "Oh, some random spellcaster challenged me and got curbstomped. Whatever."

[Newwby]

Normally I'm all about the story rather than the art but *wow*, I can't get enough of how cool the soul suck effect is. Took me a while to actually let the words sink in because I was so busy going 'oooh pretty...'


Ohhh, snap! And I take it the whole "What happens in the afterlife, stays in the afterlife" memory plot point will cause V and Blackwing to have a foggy memory of all this, allowing them to do it again some point later.

If not (maybe Blackwing might remember?) it'll be interesting to see what precautions V takes for future, e.g. telling Roy or


"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul in it would be a gross violation of our contract."

That's why the fiends can't possess V's body. I suspect this maybe something V could use later on, though.

Perhaps allowing someone else (extraplanar even? Eugene??) access to his body in the event of one of the two remaining debts being called. The two remaining debts being another 20 minute and a 5 minute one if I remember correctly.


Wonder if the IFCC guys do know what lies beyond the gates... or they just fundamentally want the world to be undone by the snarl for some reason. :smallconfused:

With all the 'what do we *really* know about the gates' speculation going around the forums lately I think this is a another choice/important piece of the puzzle. They obviously know more than they are letting on - they've always hinted as such since their first appearance.

*edit*


It may be shielded from harm for the duration of V's stay, but if Girard's Gate explodes with anything like the violence of Soon's, V's body will still be buried under tons of rock and debris. She might have a devil of a time getting out again once the IFCC release her soul.

Maybe the fiends will be nice enough to let V start with spell slots fully replenished again? Then he/she/zhe will have passwall to hand once more :smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

Normally I'm all about the story rather than the art but *wow*, I can't get enough of how cool the soul suck effect is. Took me a while to actually let the words sink in because I was so busy going 'oooh pretty...'
Y'know, it rather looks like Hawking's description in A Brief History of Time of the effects of extreme tidal forces near black holes...:smalleek:

[skaddix]

AH LOVE the spin on a classic line.

[Newwby]

Y'know, it rather looks like Hawking's description in A Brief History of Time of extreme tidal forces near black holes...:smalleek:

I wonder if that's intentional? Perhaps Rich is hinting at the sheer power the IFCC wields? Probably not but interesting nonetheless :smallbiggrin:

[Defiant]

V's soulless body looks very creepy.

[CRtwenty]

The IFCC is completely and totally Evil. But they're just so damn polite about it I can't help but love them.

[Forrestfire]

I really liked that there were ten layers of ground in the soul-sucking panel. So minus the initial, material plane layer, it makes nine. I wonder if the IFCC is hanging in Nessus.



It may be shielded from harm for the duration of V's stay, but if Girard's Gate explodes with anything like the violence of Soon's, V's body will still be buried under tons of rock and debris. She might have a devil of a time getting out again once the IFCC release her soul.


:smallamused:

[Kish]

I have a question, and it's possible we just don't have the entire picture, even now.

If their plan was to keep V from intervening to protect the gate, then why would it have been a waste if Xykon won their fight?
If Vaarsuvius had never come back from attacking Xykon, Roy would probably have looked for a new party wizard or sorcerer. In any case the IFCC would not have been able to yank any member of the Order out of position suddenly.

Although it is quite a coincidence that the only Order member (and familiar) they can grab, are also the ones with the knowledge to oppose destroying the Gate.

[davidbofinger]

As for the LotR: The Elves of Middle-Earth really did their best, and sacrified the most, to oppose Morgoth and later Sauron. You could argue that some of them, at times, chose a strategy of avoidance and concealment, in stead of actual confrontation. For instance Elu Thingol and the Girdle of Doriath. And if I remember correctly, the Men of Gondor might blame the Elves of Eriador, hiding in their hidden strongholds, while Gondor lay directly across the river from Sauron's forces in Gondor (I think this was part of Boromir's speech in the Council of Elrond?). But looking at the long lines of the history of the Elves of Middle Earth, they did repeatedly stand up against the forces of Evil, and sacrified their best warriors in that fight.

This might have been true at some time in the First or Second Age. But during the War of the Ring the elves are notable by their inactivity. Lorien contributes some equipment, Mirkwood sends Legolas, Rivendell offers lodging and advice, the Grey Havens send nothing as far as I can tell. Given the catastrophe they face it's a pathetic effort. Galadriel personally is one of the most powerful figures in Middle Earth, so she probably could have made a substantial contribution just on her own, but instead the elves let Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor, etc. do the lifting.

[EclipseDarkSun]

I wonder if a certain liche or evil high priest numbers among their clientele? Makes me think of Wolfram & Hart :) Perhaps they can control the snarl by controlling he who controls them.

And I wonder whether the contract between Varsuvius and them will continue past this holding phase.

Could be they're just involved because they want the heroes to win, to prevent the unravelling of reality and an end to the souls they harvest and possibly they themselves. So, they've engineered a particular endgame and are moving all the pawns into place.

[Harry Leipzig]

I guessed they may pull something like this. And I figured they would lampshade how inconvenient it was for the Order. So right on both counts. So the IFCC is hanging out in the CE Lower Plane? Anybody got a guess as to why? Or they just decided to meet there. And does this mean that Sabine is CE?

And the elves in LotR were far from neutral. Lorien was sieged multiple times after the Fellowship left it, they were busy trying to keep the Golden Wood from going up in flames. While Aragorn and co. were at the Black Gate, Galadriel lead the Lorien forces to Dol Guldur and took out the walls all on her lonesome. Mirkwood was also repelling attacks, and Elrond sent his sons to marshall the Dunedain for Aragorn, many of whom died at Pelennor. They weren't passive, they were dealing with their own problems.

[Forrestfire]

Hell is Lawful, not Chaotic, but good questions all the same.

[Kish]

...Huh? There's no indication they're in the Abyss. If anything, Lee says "Hell," which is closer to the name of the Nine Hells than--

--oh, you mean because it's where Vaarsuvius' soul went when Cedric invoked the contract? Read the contract again; Vaarsuvius' soul goes to Cedric's location, not to a specific plane. If Cedric was in Celestia, that's where Vaarsuvius would go.

[Gift Jeraff]

If Vaarsuvius had never come back from attacking Xykon, Roy would probably have looked for a new party wizard or sorcerer. In any case the IFCC would not have been able to yank any member of the Order out of position suddenly.

Plus if V just popped in and died, Xykon wouldn't have seen the attack as proof that Redcloak needs to stop goofing off and get back to business.

Also, the Order not moving would've meant the Linear Guild not moving, though I don't think the IFCC could've predicted that.

[Smolder]

Nice to see Sabine again.

[EclipseDarkSun]

I wonder if O'Chul and V's teleportation away from Xykon is a variation on the fiends' summoning and carried out by them? Hmm that makes sense actually.. no point him dying prematurely before he can follow through with his contractual obligations.. Didn't think of that before.. sigh..

[Emmit Svenson]

It's worth observing that this preview of the infernal regions also serves as a not unsubtle threat hanging over V's head for the future.

The three are tormenting V with a vision of the OotS's failure, not anything as crude as fire and brimstone...this time.

The three are protecting V's body from all harm...this time.

The next visit could be considerably more ouchy. Or it could be timed for when V is in mortal danger, such as fighting, flying high above the ground, or even taking a bath.

Not only will V know at any moment the debt could be called due, but if V is honest with the others, they will have to deal with that doubt and uncertainty too.

I wouldn't be surprised if V left the group, thinking this has become too much of a liability. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the three are pushing for.

But I think they might have plans still more diabolical left unspoken.

[Adventurer]

Wow, I'd never even considered that they were just going to hold him in Hell instead of doing all sorts of cool stuff with his body, like wreaking havoc all over the place, maybe injuring a member of the Order and having them wonder whether V has defected, setting up a titanic confrontation with Tarquin and/or Xykon and furthering their plan to seize the gate. Great anticlimax and great strip that neither really advances the story (at least not much more than the previous strip's final panel) , has any kind of character development, or contains any kind of joke!

[Obscure Blade]

Y'know, it rather looks like Hawking's description in A Brief History of Time of the effects of extreme tidal forces near black holes...:smalleek:Sphagettification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification); I've always liked that it's an actual word.

[HandofShadows]

Major ouch on the last line. :smallfurious:

[Forikroder]

so at this point do we call it a tie? they could take his soul while he was alive but they cant actually control him in any way

[Lossoth]

Awesome comic.

The 'shielding from all harm' is a nice touch, but presumably the fiends don't plan for V to wake up under a pile of rubble in a puddle of drool. Maybe Qarr will drag his vegetative body a few hundred feet down the tunnel before the Krackaboom...

I really hope we get a V/Sabine conversation.

[Morquard]

Wow so they're not possessing V, just taking him out of the game?

I have to say I fully expected for them to take over.

I can see how this can be helpful in some very limited situations, but going through that much trouble for all that? Maybe they're lying again. Could be they're not possessing his body now so to make him feel saver again, and not blab about the deal to the rest of the order.

But I suppose on the positive side, V now learns that Sabine is working for the fiends too.

[Kish]

so at this point do we call it a tie? they could take his soul while he was alive but they cant actually control him in any way
No, we call it a win for people who were betting that the fiends would be able to collect on the contract while Vaarsuvius was alive but unable to actually control her/his body in any way.

And a loss for the people who were insisting the contract would only be fulfilled after Vaarsuvius died, as well as any who insisted the fiends would be able to control her/his body on the mortal plane.

[Xelbiuj]

I wonder if they'll fill V in on what's been happening.

"Oh because of your little panic attack, you missed an opportunity to beat the Linear Guild, twice. Durkon died because you weren't around to help him and the Order was stuck in a phantom for hours until Elan of all people had to deduce . . . deduction is part of your job description isn't it?"

*twists the knife*

[Forikroder]

Wow so they're not possessing V, just taking him out of the game?

I have to say I fully expected for them to take over.

I can see how this can be helpful in some very limited situations, but going through that much trouble for all that? Maybe they're lying again. Could be they're not possessing his body now so to make him feel saver again, and not blab about the deal to the rest of the order.

But I suppose on the positive side, V now learns that Sabine is working for the fiends too.

I think they were teling the truth in that the main reason they made the deal with V was to ensure maximum conflict get Xykon moving and prove something to the rest of the fiend races

[Forikroder]

No, we call it a win for people who were betting that the fiends would be able to collect on the contract while Vaarsuvius was alive but unable to actually control her/his body in any way.

And a loss for the people who were insisting the contract would only be fulfilled after Vaarsuvius died, as well as any who insisted the fiends would be able to control her/his body on the mortal plane.

which is why I was saying it was a tie, the other side was right they could collect while he was alive, but incorrect that they could control her and I was wrong that they couldn't but right they could control her

at any right I was more wrong so I did lose the bet but I still remain that I was at least somewhat right :smallyuk:

[Smolder]

Are they going to cash in the whole 20 minutes at once? Cause that's an eternity in this comic.

[MReav]

Man, being a wizard's familiar must suck. I'd say the potential for intelligence and longevity might make up for it, but all that means is that you have a deeper understanding of how badly you get treated, and you have to put up with it longer.

[Obscure Blade]

And a loss for the people who were insisting the contract would only be fulfilled after Vaarsuvius died, as well as any who insisted the fiends would be able to control her/his body on the mortal plane.Well, they just said that they wouldn't put another soul in it. If you or V assumes that means that they can't either control V directly or control the body without a soul...well, they just saw no need to correct that assumption. :amused:

[Forikroder]

Well, they just said that they wouldn't put another soul in it. If you or V assumes that means that they can't either control V directly or control the body without a soul...well, they just saw no need to correct that assumption. :amused:

controlling Vs property without his permission would be more then they can do from where they are, unless they have some demon in position willing to play puppetmaster

I wonder if the fiends are planning to use Vs current predicament as leverage to negotiate a far worse deal

[OOTS_Echoes]

Who says they need to cash it all in at once?

Another thing. Either Gift is right and V will remember next to nothing, or they intentionally want V to know that Sabine is part of their crew.

Perhaps the fiends do not know of the affiliation between Sabine and V.. I mean it's assumed that if they were watching perhaps they say them at some point.. Or maybe Quarr said something to them. I think that IFCC do not know that they are acquainted and that what V learns will help the Order immensely.

[Forikroder]

Perhaps the fiends do not know of the affiliation between Sabine and V.. I mean it's assumed that if they were watching perhaps they say them at some point.. Or maybe Quarr said something to them. I think that IFCC do not know that they are acquainted and that what V learns will help the Order immensely.

its pretty impossible to think they pay so little attention to the LG and the OoTS they don't even know there enemies

Sabine definently filled them in last time she came home (when she reported about the gates)

[Iago]

Are they going to cash in the whole 20 minutes at once? Cause that's an eternity in this comic.

Well, it depends... the IFCC said "three minutes, six seconds for you, 20 minutes, 35 seconds for him and me."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

So, the question is does "for him and me" mean EACH, or TOTAL?

I suspect it means each, because Lee said "my colleague is exercising his option" implying that the 20 minutes currently being exercised was Cedric's alone. And regardless, Nero still has his three minutes coming, even if Lee's time is also being used right now.

[LadyEowyn]

Wow.

So 90% (at least) of forum speculation was wrong. They get control over V's soul, but not V's body. I don't think anyone called that.

[Forikroder]

Wow.

So 90% (at least) of forum speculation was wrong. They get control over V's soul, but not V's body. I don't think anyone called that.

not control, just ownership so they can do to it whatever they want but cant make it do anything

[Kish]

which is why I was saying it was a tie, the other side was right they could collect while he was alive, but incorrect that they could control her and I was wrong that they couldn't but right they could control her

at any right I was more wrong so I did lose the bet but I still remain that I was at least somewhat right :smallyuk:
There aren't only two sides, Forikroder. Some people before the last comic went up were saying the fiends would do exactly what they just did.

I wasn't one of them; I was thinking (though I don't remember whether or not I actually said it) that the fiends' control of Vaarsuvius' soul would let them puppeteer Vaarsuvius' body. But I'm impressed that anyone did figure it out before it happened.

[Gift Jeraff]

Perhaps the fiends do not know of the affiliation between Sabine and V.. I mean it's assumed that if they were watching perhaps they say them at some point.. Or maybe Quarr said something to them. I think that IFCC do not know that they are acquainted and that what V learns will help the Order immensely.

Sabine was the one who made them aware of V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

[Forikroder]

There aren't only two sides, Forikroder. Some people before the last comic went up were saying the fiends would do exactly what they just did.

I wasn't one of them; I was thinking (though I don't remember whether or not I actually said it) that the fiends' control of Vaarsuvius' soul would let them puppeteer Vaarsuvius' body. But I'm impressed that anyone did figure it out before it happened.

there were multiple sides but I didn't make a bet with the whole forum

[Ninja Dragon]

I don't understand their plan. They gave the elf nearly unlimited power. That power enabled him/her to teleport to Azure City, challenge Xykon, and before leaving the city, sending Blackwing to throw the Phylactery in the gate, which made him finding out there is a planet in there. Now the next step in their evil plan is to use the contract to prevent V from using the information they gave to him?

Sounds like they made a mistake and now are trying to fix it. Maybe the other two fiends still have a purpose for V's soul.

[Forikroder]

I don't understand their plan. They gave the elf nearly unlimited power. That power enabled him/her to teleport to Azure City, challenge Xykon, and before leaving the city, sending Blackwing to throw the Phylactery in the gate, which made him finding out there is a planet in there. Now the next step in their evil plan is to use the contract to prevent V from using the information they gave to him?

Sounds like they made a mistake and now are trying to fix it. Maybe the other two fiends still have a purpose for V's soul.

I think everything is still going according to plan, they want the OoTS and TE to fight for as long as possible, so they need this gate to go so everyone moves on, V was (possibly) about to prevent that so they used one of there freebies to stop it

[rgrekejin]

so at this point do we call it a tie? they could take his soul while he was alive but they cant actually control him in any way

Yup, sounds fair to me. Your assertion that they couldn't control V's soul until her death was wrong, but I went too far in asserting that their control over V's soul would allow them to control her physical body. So, yup. Looks like a draw to me.

[With a box]

I wonder dimensional anchor can obviate that.
(i think it can, but I cannot sure.)

but I think V will use dimensional anchor on herself compulsively.

[Shale]

I don't understand their plan. They gave the elf nearly unlimited power. That power enabled him/her to teleport to Azure City, challenge Xykon, and before leaving the city, sending Blackwing to throw the Phylactery in the gate, which made him finding out there is a planet in there. Now the next step in their evil plan is to use the contract to prevent V from using the information they gave to him?

Sounds like they made a mistake and now are trying to fix it. Maybe the other two fiends still have a purpose for V's soul.

The plan was to cause V to lash out at Xykon, thus knocking Team Evil out of their nation-building rut and back onto the warpath. Mission accomplished: Xykon is on the move, and the fight is back on. The later use of V's soul was just a bonus - something that can help them tactically but was not their main objective in itself.

For that matter, it's entirely possible that destroying the Gate is the right thing for the Order to do here - the fiends want to stop either side from claiming a complete victory, which means it helps them not at all if Xykon wins right now.

[rgrekejin]

Though I must admit, I have no idea what the IFCC's plan is at this point. Why are they interested in the destruction of the Gates? And how could they have possibly known ahead of time that this exact situation would arise that they would need to avoid? Do they have someone with Oracular powers?

[Forikroder]

I wonder dimensional anchor can obviate that.
(i think it can, but I cannot sure.)

but I think V will use dimensional anchor on herself compulsively.

youd have to cast it on the actual soul though, just on the body wont work

maybe Eugene could help with that

[eras10]

Meh, I'm with Ninja Dragon. I trust this story and the author completely, but I'm a little nonplussed. That was a lot to offer V for a lousy 45 minutes of stasis for one good party member. It may have made an important difference, but it having done so was a low-probability event - blowing up the gate is already the most-likely outcome of this fight (and the others, as long as Xykon isn't losing).

Just think about how differently this would have gone... and how hosed the fiends' plan would be... if the Girarders were still alive. And the fiends didn't see that coming.

Seriously, they could have just swapped one word in the contract (from 'transfer' to 'ownership, or something like that, exact details unknown, etc), and V would have bought it.

Well, I'm sure the story will healthily survive this maybe-trying-a -little-too-hard-to-disagree-with-the-forum moment..

[exenia]

I really hope we get a V/Sabine conversation.
I think it's inevitable, can't wait. V stands to gain a lot here.

I doubt the fiends will be clumsy enough to let any major details slip, but V might be able to work some small piece of info out of them about the Gates and their goals. Sabine could give some insight into why Nale cares about the Gates at all, or if there's any deeper motive to them constantly bothering OOTS.

Even just watching the TV will reveal Tarquin and Malack in the LG lineup, Durkon's vampirism and Belkar's vulnerability, OOTS talking about Xykon being on the move or even Xykon coming on the scene outside.

[Amphiox]

It should be noted that it was not Darth V that knocked Xykon out of his complacency, but actually regular V.

Xykon was never really impressed with Darth V's power. What really unsettled him was regular V endangering his phylactery with the explosive runes trick.

[Ninja Dragon]

The plan was to cause V to lash out at Xykon, thus knocking Team Evil out of their nation-building rut and back onto the warpath. Mission accomplished: Xykon is on the move, and the fight is back on. The later use of V's soul was just a bonus - something that can help them tactically but was not their main objective in itself.

For that matter, it's entirely possible that destroying the Gate is the right thing for the Order to do here - the fiends want to stop either side from claiming a complete victory, which means it helps them not at all if Xykon wins right now.

Seems plausible enough. It's just that I thought V's soul had some purpose in their master plan. Well, maybe it still does, but will still work even if they don't have ~40% of the soul time?


Though I must admit, I have no idea what the IFCC's plan is at this point. Why are they interested in the destruction of the Gates? And how could they have possibly known ahead of time that this exact situation would arise that they would need to avoid? Do they have someone with Oracular powers?

I think the point is they don't have oracular powers. They are basically playing with fire, and hoping the fire burns in the direction they want.

[Amphiox]

Meh, I'm with Ninja Dragon. I trust this story and the author completely, but I'm a little nonplussed. That was a lot to offer V for a lousy 45 minutes of stasis for one good party member. It may have made an important difference, but it having done so was a low-probability event - blowing up the gate is already the most-likely outcome of this fight (and the others, as long as Xykon isn't losing).

Just think about how differently this would have gone... and how hosed the fiends' plan would be... if the Girarders were still alive. And the fiends didn't see that coming.

Seriously, they could have just swapped one word in the contract (from 'transfer' to 'ownership, or something like that, exact details unknown, etc), and V would have bought it.

Well, I'm sure the story will healthily survive this maybe-trying-a -little-too-hard-to-disagree-with-the-forum moment..

I think we should consider the possibility that the IFCC were actually telling the truth when they said V's soul was just bonus, and not the main payoff they are expecting from their deal.

If the Girarders were still alive, the IFCC probably would not have chosen to use their soul option on V at this particular moment. Their ultimate plan may not need to focus on specific details such has how and when each individual gate is destroyed or not destroyed. They are watching, being flexible, and reacting to the situation as needed.

[mattie_p]

I really hope we get a V/Sabine conversation.

I think V is sitting out the rest of the book, the next book opens with a V/Sabine conversation (possibly in bonus comic form).

[Silverionmox]

Well, it depends... the IFCC said "three minutes, six seconds for you, 20 minutes, 35 seconds for him and me."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

So, the question is does "for him and me" mean EACH, or TOTAL?

I suspect it means each, because Lee said "my colleague is exercising his option" implying that the 20 minutes currently being exercised was Cedric's alone. And regardless, Nero still has his three minutes coming, even if Lee's time is also being used right now.

V lost Haerta first after dealing with the Black Mamma Dragon, the two other souls later when being sledgehammered by Xykon. The call options of the fiends on V's soul correspond with the time he used their souls.

[Gift Jeraff]

If the Draketooths were still around, Z may have been able to zero in on the pyramid and Nale probably would have tried to turn the Draketooth Clan against the OOTS like Elan expected. Then Sabine or Qarr would have tried getting close the Gate to destroy it.

That's my guess.

[Ninja Dragon]

I think we should consider the possibility that the IFCC were actually telling the truth when they said V's soul was just bonus, and not the main payoff they are expecting from their deal.

If the Girarders were still alive, the IFCC probably would not have chosen to use their soul option on V at this particular moment. Their ultimate plan may not need to focus on specific details such has how and when each individual gate is destroyed or not destroyed. They are watching, being flexible, and reacting to the situation as needed.

Meh, I guess I'm too used to "Everything is going exactly according to my plan" types of villains, like Tarquin. Whatever, using the contract to stop V from ruining their plan is great timing. Let's see how this develops.

[pendell]

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for neutral elves to do nothing."

*Snicker*.

I'm a little bit surprised that the payment requires nothing more than restraining the elf for a period of time. I suppose this means the three fiends have a pretty fair idea of what the future holds and are willing to accept such paltry terms in exchange for the expected benefit. They must know *exactly* how much time they need and when.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Finn Solomon]

Nero's eyes kinda look like the Monster in the Darkness's for a moment.

[Syncrogti]

As I've read the OOTS comic, one of the things I've been most impressed with is Rich's storytelling ability. Specifically making characters who seem real and tangible. And surprisingly for me, that evil characters can behave honorably and respectably, despite not having my RL values. Thank you for a wonderful story and excellent character development.

Sabine watching TV while the IFCC works is hilarious!

[Dracon1us]

holy ****

redemption is not for everyone
it's a rare and special thing

[The Pilgrim]

That sweet moment in which the Fiends tell V that her assumptions were wrong...

[magic9mushroom]

I just failed my Will save against shipping Vaarsuvius/Sabine. Particularly given that lovely scene in Azure City between them.

[Clistenes]

Notice how they don't give a crap if V learns what they can/intend to do with his/her soul or that Sabine works for them. This is their End Gambit.

We are approaching the end of the comic.

[Mollez]

Why does Elan look so upset in the last panel? What does he know/suspect?

[hamishspence]

The expression's more "alarmed" than "upset" I'd say- maybe because he's closest to the knocking sound, and might think something's about to come through the wall.

[SavageWombat]

Yes, you're all right - there's more to the evil plan than just this. Since they didn't know the outcome of the V/X fight at the time, they couldn't have known V would learn about the world in the rift - so the plan wouldn't have centered on just preventing Roy from learning of it.

[eras10]

If the Girarders were still alive, the IFCC probably would not have chosen to use their soul option on V at this particular moment. Their ultimate plan may not need to focus on specific details such has how and when each individual gate is destroyed or not destroyed. They are watching, being flexible, and reacting to the situation as needed.

This is a good point, as was whoever the prior was suggesting that the point of the soul splice deal was just to provoke Xykon into not falling so far behind as to throw the game to OOTS...... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .. i guess.

[Marlowe]

This might have been true at some time in the First or Second Age. But during the War of the Ring the elves are notable by their inactivity. Lorien contributes some equipment, Mirkwood sends Legolas, Rivendell offers lodging and advice, the Grey Havens send nothing as far as I can tell. Given the catastrophe they face it's a pathetic effort. Galadriel personally is one of the most powerful figures in Middle Earth, so she probably could have made a substantial contribution just on her own, but instead the elves let Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor, etc. do the lifting.

No Oh! Looks like somebody's not familiar with the appendices!:smallsmile:

Or maybe you are; since you mention Dale and Erebor, but it's specifically stated that Lorien was under attack out of Dol Guldur at the exact same time. You appear to have missed this.

What was Galadriel doing while the Battle of the Pellenor went on? She was fighting for her life and the lives of her people. What was she doing while Frodo was climbing mount Doom? She was putting together an assault on Dol Guldur.

As for the other Elven strongholds, Rivendell doesn't appear to have much in the way of military resources, North Mirkwood was heavily engaged along with Dale and Erebor, and the Havens were just too far away to effect things in time. The War of the Ring went from ominous forebodings to climactic battles very quickly. And people on LoTR don't have things like "Teleportation Circle" to move their forces around fast. In a landmass that's a lot larger than europe and less well-equipped with useful river lines or seacoasts.

As for the comic, anticlimactic, yet great. Or great because anticlimactic. It means the IFCC's game is deeper than I was thinking, and I'm looking forward to V vs Sabine.

[eras10]

For that matter, it's entirely possible that destroying the Gate is the right thing for the Order to do here - the fiends want to stop either side from claiming a complete victory, which means it helps them not at all if Xykon wins right now.

If Xykon and/or Redcloak really can use the gate to blackmail the gods of good, then that may be true, but at this point you have to wonder if the Dark One himself is wrong or has been misled about the whole deal. For all we know, he has a deal with the fiends, while I'm talking crazy.

Anyway, it would be a pretty clever twist if it turns out that letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate would be more or less completely harmless and useless to them, the ritual doesn't work, etc, and the real threat involves blowing them up.

Although it's going to take a certain degree of explaining about all the people who died standing too close to the rifts before.

[Vectner]

I'm so confused, what is going on?

[magic9mushroom]

I'm looking forward to V vs Sabine.

I'm more interested in V/Sabine. :amused:

(Remember, Sabine actually rather likes V cf. their discussion over drinks in Azure City.)

[Kish]

I'm so confused, what is going on?
You have two options. Elaborate. Or reread the entire comic.

[Iago]

V lost Haerta first after dealing with the Black Mamma Dragon, the two other souls later when being sledgehammered by Xykon. The call options of the fiends on V's soul correspond with the time he used their souls.

Oh, I understand that. The options noted that each one of the IFCC called up _A_ soul for the splice, and V would owe the IFCC a like amount of time for the duration of each individual splice.

Nero called up Haerta; Haerta escaped post-Familicide, so V owes Nero the three minutes six seconds of that bind. Lee and Cedric called up Ganonron and Jepthon, who both escaped at the same time. My question was that when Lee said "twenty minutes, 35 seconds for him (Cedric) and me" was whether this meant twenty minutes total (i.e., V held each of them for ten minutes seventeen seconds), or twenty minutes plus each. I suspect it was the latter.

[Obscure Blade]

Though I must admit, I have no idea what the IFCC's plan is at this point. Why are they interested in the destruction of the Gates? One possibility: They do have some plan to take control of a gate and unleash the Snarl, but they want the gate they control to be the only gate left for some reason. Perhaps if there's more than one left someone at the other one could use their own ritual and grab control away.

[Kish]

Oh, I understand that. The options noted that each one of the IFCC called up _A_ soul for the splice, and V would owe the IFCC a like amount of time for the duration of each individual splice.

Nero called up Haerta; Haerta escaped post-Familicide, so V owes Nero the three minutes six seconds of that bind. Lee and Cedric called up Ganonron and Jepthon, who both escaped at the same time. My question was that when Lee said "twenty minutes, 35 seconds for him (Cedric) and me" was whether this meant twenty minutes total (i.e., V held each of them for ten minutes seventeen seconds), or twenty minutes plus each. I suspect it was the latter.
Well, in the latest comic Cedric says that he--and only he--is calling in "twenty minutes, thirty-five seconds" of debt, so presumably Lee has the same amount as well.

[attriel]

In the grand mode of conflict, I imagine the IFCC agrees with OotS. "If we try to defend it, we're dead, they win, game over"

And IFCC doesn't want game over. They're playing Risk, dammit, not candyland! KEEP PLAYING! ;)

I imagine they probably have some track on LG and/or TE and know there's a fight coming down the stairs. Probably enough to lag the destruction, so they need the order to be moving in the right direction so that when they have the chance they take it. V stopping them now might give them pause when they need to move.

[drazen]

Since they didn't know the outcome of the V/X fight at the time, they couldn't have known V would learn about the world in the rift - so the plan wouldn't have centered on just preventing Roy from learning of it.

The fiends don't actually seem to know about the planet, though. See strip #659. They state outright that they don't know what happens if the phylactery falls into the hole (Qarr, Yellow-Eyed Fiend) and they don't know why Blackwing is just staring into the rift, transfixed (Orange-Eyed Fiend).

[Shale]

If Xykon and/or Redcloak really can use the gate to blackmail the gods of good, then that may be true, but at this point you have to wonder if the Dark One himself is wrong or has been misled about the whole deal. For all we know, he has a deal with the fiends, while I'm talking crazy.

Anyway, it would be a pretty clever twist if it turns out that letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate would be more or less completely harmless and useless to them, the ritual doesn't work, etc, and the real threat involves blowing them up.


They outright said they don't want Xykon and Redcloak to win ("Because we're all Evil, we're one big happy family? Screw that.") - they want pointless, destructive conflict. If Xykon arrives and walks all over everybody, the conflict's over.

[Dracon1us]

I'm more interested in V/Sabine. :amused:

(Remember, Sabine actually rather likes V cf. their discussion over drinks in Azure City.)

I'm with you sister!
brace yourselves...hot things are coming! :vaarsuvius: :sabine:


the fiends are just profiting from the situation...

[Grey Pilgrim]

Yes! Called it! In your fa... (oh, nevermind, I'm just really really happy I did guess right)

Wonderful art and a wonderful story twist, Mr. Giant!

[hamishspence]

They state outright that they don't know what happens if the phylactery falls into the hole (Qarr, Yellow-Eyed Fiend) and they don't know why Blackwing is just staring into the rift, transfixed (Orange-Eyed Fiend).

True. (Yellow-Eyed Fiend is Lee, Orange-Eyed is Cedrik, Purple-Eyed is Nero).

[AgentofHellfire]

One possibility: They do have some plan to take control of a gate and unleash the Snarl, but they want the gate they control to be the only gate left for some reason. Perhaps if there's more than one left someone at the other one could use their own ritual and grab control away.


I tend to wonder whether or not, somehow, the archfiends know about that world inside the rift--at the very least, they know about it now from watching V, so it might've been involved in their plans all along.

It might just be that their plan is to take over that world...

[CWH10301964]

In any event, we all knew that gate was going to go BOOM. It was interesting to see where the IFCC stood on the matter.

[Ivrytwr]

I like the art work here, good job Giant.
So, V gets twenty minutes on the couch with Sabine?
Rough assignment you pulled there!

[pearl jam]

In a landmass that's a lot larger than europe and less well-equipped with useful river lines or seacoasts.

Nitpick. Given that the land mass where the events of LoTR take place is intended to be the Europe of a distant past, I expect it ought to be roughly similar in size, should it not?:smallconfused:

[SterlingAvenger]

That's really mean, really clever and really funny.:smallbiggrin:
A trio I approve of.

[Smolder]

I have never wanted an exposition-heavy strip as much as I do right now.

[Adeptus]

Awesome comic! And most of us didn't predict it would play out this way.

[Vinsfeld]

Pretty cool "special effects" :smallsmile:

[NerdyKris]

Aw man. And I was so positive the deal meant control of the body as well.

This is a clever use of the terms, though. No torture. Just removing V from the scene for 20 minutes.

[137beth]

Awesome. No possession or ridiculous splices. Just an empty shell left:)

Also I love that scene from Goldfinger!

Hurray, all the people who said it had to involve possession were wrong:smalltongue:

[Marlowe]

Nitpick. Given that the land mass where the events of LoTR take place is intended to be the Europe of a distant past, I expect it ought to be roughly similar in size, should it not?:smallconfused:

Counter-nitpick: the area is the same. The Landmass is a lot bigger.

EDIT: I apologise, that was needlessly curt.

To clarify; If the Shire is suppoed to be southern England, then the Grey Havens are well out in what's now the Atlantic.

[mattie_p]

This is a clever use of the terms, though. No torture. Just removing V from the scene for 20 minutes.

V has to watch the scene play out, while sitting next to Sabine, while held immobile, and can't do anything at all to prevent what s/he thinks is a big mistake, and you don't think this is torture?

[Doug Lampert]

Plus if they possessed V and he knew, he'd consider himself a danger to the Order and separate himself from them. Know he has no reason to do that. He may be a momentary liability ofc but he cannot be actively used against them so it is in his best interest to stay with them (as long as he tells Roy everything ofc so he knows he cannot depend on V being there).

And this works even better if they are LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH about not being able to possess V. Seriously, one of the arguments last thread was that V would hang virself to avoid being actively used against the order once V realized it was possible.

Here they take V out of the picture, retain most of their possession time, and tell V that they can't actually do anything worse than this.

Why trust them? Being truthful MOST of the time is a fine way to set up a lie when you need one.

If all they need to do here is stop V from preventing the destruction of the gate, then REGARDLESS of whether or not they can possess V, what they are doing now is correct.

[Sharp-kun]

While they have his soul, whats to stop them later corrupting it in some way so that they don't need to posess him?

[Garwain]

At first I thought: Hey, we might very well learn of V's alignment. Because Sabine, being bored and all, will surely try to hit on V. Being male. And strapped down.

But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if Sabine goes both ways.

[Tock Zipporah]

Wow, I'd never even considered that they were just going to hold him in Hell. Great development!

Multiple people predicted all they wanted was for V to "do nothing" and thus allow the gate to be destroyed.

Kudos to the people who guessed it :)

[Velaryon]

"You assumed and we saw no need to correct."

Classic. Sometimes, no trickery on the fiends' part will screw you over as badly as your own assumptions will.

My favorite part of this quote is that it applies equally to the entire forum community assuming they knew the way this was going to play out. I love it when everyone believes they know what will happen and we're all proved wrong. :smallsmile:

[Shale]

At first I thought: Hey, we might very well learn of V's alignment. Because Sabine, being bored and all, will surely try to hit on V. Being male. And strapped down.

But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if Sabine goes both ways.

You didn't take the part about "Neutral elves" as enough of a hint?

Also, V's male? Wha?

[Smolder]

My favorite part of this quote is that it applies equally to the entire forum community assuming they knew the way this was going to play out. I love it when everyone believes they know what will happen and we're all proved wrong. :smallsmile:

This isn't the first time this has happened either. I'm beginning to suspect some forumites may be double agents spreading misleading speculation on behalf of Rich. I've always been suspicious of moderators speculating, but now I'm starting to think the conspiracy is bigger than that....

:smallwink:

[Reks]

Okay am I the only one who found the soulless body of V to be very creepy?:smalleek:
I'm really worried to see what's going to happen next and yet I'm also very eager...
Great strip ^^

[Siosilvar]

At first I thought: Hey, we might very well learn of V's alignment. Because Sabine, being bored and all, will surely try to hit on V. Being male. And strapped down.

But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if Sabine goes both ways.

V's not male.

At least, we're not sure if V is male. And last time Sabine saw V, she thought e was of the female persuasion. Not that that's an obstacle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay am I the only one who found the soulless body of V to be very creepy?:smalleek:
I'm really worried to see what's going to happen next and yet I'm also very eager...
Great strip ^^

No, you're not. The eyes are just a touch too big, making V look empty. Rather appropriate.

[Themrys]

You didn't take the part about "Neutral elves" as enough of a hint?

Also, V's male? Wha?

Actually, Sabine seems to assume that V is female, asking hir why men are such pigs and stuff.

Also, IF V is male, I bet he's gay. And, maybe, still loyal to Inkyrius. I don't think Sabine will get very far in that direction.

Of course, being evil, she might rape V. Which wouldn't tell us much about V, either.

[sihnfahl]

I think the point is they don't have oracular powers. They are basically playing with fire, and hoping the fire burns in the direction they want.
Actually, consider it more like Roy and Belkar.

You have a plan, you have a tool. You point the tool in the direction you want, and let them do what comes naturally to them. Nudge them on the path you want every so often...

[Solara]

Somehow I don't think Rich is going to have one of his protagonists get raped in this comic strip. :smallannoyed:

Surely there's another thread for this kind of fantasizing?

[CoffeeIncluded]

There was. It got shut down about three and a half years ago. Crack parings, and you veterans know exactly what I'm talking about. :smallamused:

[Grey Watcher]

Huh. I can't figure why they would want the Gates destroyed. Unless they've got their sights set on Kraagor's and want to make sure they're the only game in town. Otherwise, what do they gain by letting reality be unmade and replaced? They're not gods, so they don't get a vote in World 3.0, and, to the best of my knowledge, they only know of the Gates because Sabine told them what Nale told her about what Shojo told him when he was disguised as Elan. :smallconfused:

[Themrys]

Somehow I don't think Rich is going to have one of his protagonists get raped in this comic strip. :smallannoyed:

Surely there's another thread for this kind of fantasizing?

You know, using someone as cat toilet isn't really that much better than rape. Inserting something into someone's mouth with the intent to cause humiliation is pretty close to rape.
Just saying.

Or did you mean to emphasize that it won't happen to protagonists?

It might not, but then, Belkar already assaulted V a number of times.

I sincerely hope you don't think anyone in this thread is fantasizing about rape. Rape ist not sexy.

Crack pairings, on the other hand, may be. :smallwink:

[mhsmith]

"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul in it would be a gross violation of our contract."

That's why the fiends can't possess V's body. I suspect this maybe something V could use later on, though.

Alternatively, as a few others have speculated, they simply want V to think this, so they will have a chance to take over his body at some point in the future when it's convenient.

[AbuSpud]

"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul in it would be a gross violation of our contract."

That's why the fiends can't possess V's body. I suspect this maybe something V could use later on, though.

That might be the lawful evil take on it; wonder if the chaotic partner's going to be so scrupulous...

[Warren Dew]

How evil. They're going to force Vaarsuvius to watch television for the duration of of the soul debt.

[Vemynal]

Poor Blackwing! What will happen to him!? The fiend's even said they hadn't accounted for him and aren't responsible for unintended side effects!

[Warren Dew]

Huh. I can't figure why they would want the Gates destroyed. Unless they've got their sights set on Kraagor's and want to make sure they're the only game in town. Otherwise, what do they gain by letting reality be unmade and replaced? They're not gods, so they don't get a vote in World 3.0, and, to the best of my knowledge, they only know of the Gates because Sabine told them what Nale told her about what Soon told him when he was disguised as Elan. :smallconfused:
They want strife. Releasing the snarl would definitely cause strife. Giving the dark one power would also cause strife.

Unmaking of perhaps two worlds would be nice and evil, too. It's far from clear that the three would be affecting, being on another plane.

[Caex]

Does anyone know which one of the fiends it is that is taking V now? It seems to be the orange one, but a quick glance at the archives doesn't make it clear if that's Lee, Nero, or Cedrick. It seems to me that the current arrangement is highly lawful, what with all of its scrupulous rule-keeping. Maybe that means this is Lee (and that the more chaotic partners will play more fast and loose with the rules), or perhaps that is just how the IFCC operates (certainly seemed that way in the past).

[Grey Watcher]

They want strife. Releasing the snarl would definitely cause strife. Giving the dark one power would also cause strife.

Unmaking of perhaps two worlds would be nice and evil, too. It's far from clear that the three would be affecting, being on another plane.

I was assuming that they'd be safe, being on a different plane, much as the Gods were safe on their own planes during the Snarl's first rampage (assuming that story is true). But I fail to see how the destruction of the Prime Material plane advances their cause of turning the Blood War into the Blood Alliance and thereby overwhelming the forces of Good. Unless there are more Evil gods now, thanks to the rise of the Elven Gods and the Dark One? :smallconfused:

[Gift Jeraff]

Does anyone know which one of the fiends it is that is taking V now? It seems to be the orange one, but a quick glance at the archives doesn't make it clear if that's Lee, Nero, or Cedrick. It seems to me that the current arrangement is highly lawful, what with all of its scrupulous rule-keeping. Maybe that means this is Lee (and that the more chaotic partners will play more fast and loose with the rules), or perhaps that is just how the IFCC operates (certainly seemed that way in the past).

In the book, Rich clarifies that

Lee = yellow = "slightly more chaotic devil"
Nero = purple = "slightly less neutral daemon"
Cedrik = orange = "slightly more lawful demon"

And he also says not to put too much stock into who is who.

[Grey Watcher]

Does anyone know which one of the fiends it is that is taking V now? It seems to be the orange one, but a quick glance at the archives doesn't make it clear if that's Lee, Nero, or Cedrick. It seems to me that the current arrangement is highly lawful, what with all of its scrupulous rule-keeping. Maybe that means this is Lee (and that the more chaotic partners will play more fast and loose with the rules), or perhaps that is just how the IFCC operates (certainly seemed that way in the past).

Burlew's said in the print commentaries which color is which*, but that also that he generally doesn't write them as distinct characters. He, apparently, usually just writes their dialogue as essentially one character and then assigns the speech balloons based on what looks good and readable on the page.

*I don't have my books handy, and I don't remember which is which, so I must wait for the inevitable ninjas.

[Wamyen]

Hmm... being able to "jack" one of the most intelligent members of the party for, what? The better part of an hour total? It's genius in it's subtlety if you stop to think about it. Being able to do nothing is alot more damaging than turning against your own will in some cases.

[B. Dandelion]

In DSTP the Giant clarifies that the devil is Lee (yellow) the daemon is Nero (purple) and the demon is Cedrick (orange). But also the intent is to blur the distinctions between the alignments a little, so Cedrick for example went to school with devils. You'll also note the succubus Sabine is said to work for Lee, and when you look at the colors surrounding Ganonron and Jephton, they're reversed from what you'd expect -- Ganonron seems LE but is orange, and Jephton seems CE but is yellow.

So it looks to be Cedrick cashing in, but it's not too surprising if the situation smacks of some degree of Lawfulness.

[joosy]

So.. the IFCC wants the gate destroyed.

I would assume destruction of the other gates was part of Xykon and Redcloak's plan as well. The initial plan by the Goblin god was based on there being just one gate. Once Redcloak learned that there were more, then the plan was most likely expanded to controlling one and eliminating the others so no one could wrest control away from them. If the IFCC's plan includes controlling the gates then this would be part of their plan as well.

I do not believe that the IFCC knew of the rifts, the gates, or the Snarl until they were told by Sabine. They were already working together on their plan to unite the demons, devils, and daemons and stop the Blood War and concentrate on attacking Good. I do not see how creating chaos on the mortal plan would help that goal unless it was to eventually seize control of the Snarl. Perhaps they think that having the Snarl on their side may force the fiends into cooperation. Of course, they think long term so any speculation may be moot.

It is interesting that the IFCC has no plans for V's body AND that Cedrik (the orange one) is the one taking his turn. I would expect the Chaotic Evil one to be the one to break the rules -perhaps by having him use his turn first and letting Lee and Nero handle it ensures that won't happen. Perhaps Cedrik will be in charge when (or if) the IFCC takes another turn at V's soul and that will allow him to break the rules and take over V's body. That may create some unexpected chaos with the IFCC at a crucial moment.

I also find it intriguing that the IFCC is tipping their hand to V and Blackwing that they are also interested in the gates, that Sabine is working for them. Perhaps they will forget those details much like Roy did when he returned from the higher planes.

[King of Nowhere]

That's a brilliant piece of plotting.
Rich complained about V having too powerful spells thazt would get in the way of the plot, and he often has to write V out of fight scenes for that reason.
But now, he has a perfectly good reason to get V out of any scene, without any need for extra justification about it. From a meta-story point of view, it's the ultimate solution.

From the story perspective, I was afraid worse was going to happen. almost everyone was ready to bet they could at least posses V's body

[SaintRidley]

Ooh, I like.


"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul in it would be a gross violation of our contract."

That's why the fiends can't possess V's body. I suspect this maybe something V could use later on, though.

Of course, there are plenty of ways to play with a body without inserting another soul. I imagine we might see one of those the next time the debt is called in, much to V's dismay.

[Grey Watcher]

...and when you look at the colors surrounding Ganonron and Jephton, they're reversed from what you'd expect -- Ganonron seems LE but is orange, and Jephton seems CE but is yellow....

Wow, I never noticed that! Time to revise the headcanon!

[Ninja]

The question is, is the term such that the fiend taking control must use up all his allotted time at once, or is he able to return V to her body and then take back control later? I'm thinking the latter, but I don't know how these "sell your soul" deals work exactly. :smallbiggrin:

[Caex]

In the book, Rich clarifies that

Lee = yellow = "slightly more chaotic devil"
Nero = purple = "slightly less neutral daemon"
Cedrik = orange = "slightly more lawful demon"

And he also says not to put too much stock into who is who.

Ah, thanks, that clears it up nicely. If we aren't to worry too much about who is who, then the notion that the less lawful ones are going to be different in their treatment of V's terms probably doesn't have a lot of standing.

Also, I am now wondering what it means to be "slightly less neutral."

[allenw]

The fiends (allegedly) won't put another soul in V's empty body.
Of course, if a disembodied former Soul Splice wanders by and just happens to try the body on for size, that's hardly the fiends' fault. Okay, it *is* their fault, since they were supposed to recollect the souls, but these things can slip through the cracks. :smalltongue:

[Faldrath]

So is V about to die now? The fiends said that they'll only protect him while his soul is in hell. But assuming Roy does destroy the gate (and that it is indeed the gate, since all we have regarding that is Roy's word), it'll probably go ka-boom.

And if it does goes ka-boom, then a wizard with very low constitution is about to be buried by tons of rock. Once the fiends' protection wears off, well...

[warmachine]

I was hoping for a scene where an angel interrupts, stating intervention in the Material Plane risks war, then an IFCC director waves a contract and tells him/her to go away.

Still, the conversation between V and Sabine should be funny.

[Tragak]

Wow, I never noticed that! Time to revise the headcanon! Yeah, there are a lot of ideas floating around for how the the spliced souls' alignments are different from what you'd expect. My favorites:

Ganonron "teleported vast armies to conquer world after world," which sounds Lawful Evil at first glance, but since he was sent to the Abyss under Cedrik's control, apparently he was a Xykon-style conqueror instead of a Tarquin-style: he didn't want to do anything with the worlds he rules, he just took the credit and the glory after using the battles as a power trip while lieutenants like Redcloak handled more of the minutiae.

Haera's Familicide seems like something a CE Destroyer would do purely to relish the maximum damage, but since she was sent to Hades under Nero's control, perhaps she was just being extremely pragmatic the way Darth V was: prevent relatives from seeking vengeance.

Jephton was a sorcerer, the stereotype is that "flexibility is Chaotic," and "tear down creation to see if you can" sounds more like a CE Destroyer rather than a LE Dominator, but since he was sent to Baator under Lee's control, his emphasis on flexibility was probably more like Roy taking cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge (Architecture/Engineering) for the sake of accomplishing his disciplined goals than like Belkar for not having goals.

[Demolator]

Though the IFCC seems like they're just going to hold V's soul captive for now, I'm worried about what Sabine might try to do. Things aren't lookin' too good for V.

[warmachine]

The moral of the story is: if you haven't got time to read a contract and the service provider won't give you that time, always walk away.

[Shatteredtower]

I wonder what V might be willing to trade for a chance to get back in the game?


How evil. They're going to force Vaarsuvius to watch television for the duration of of the soul debt.

But it's a commercial free broadcast!

[F.Harr]

Wow, I never expected THAT to happen.



Awesome. No possession or ridiculous splices. Just an empty shell left:)

Also I love that scene from Goldfinger!

I KNOW. It's so great!


:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Themrys]

Hmm... being able to "jack" one of the most intelligent members of the party for, what? The better part of an hour total? It's genius in it's subtlety if you stop to think about it. Being able to do nothing is alot more damaging than turning against your own will in some cases.

More damaging? How?

However, in this case, it certainly is AS damaging - V wouldn't have been able to harm the OOTS in that situation, so just doing nothing is actually the worst s/he can do.

[Jiggs]

Brilliant!
I always consider a new comic strip a good sign (for me personally)
so thank you very much Giant for this one!

[luc258]

Being tied down next to a bored Succubus? Fanfic will go crazy.
But nothing will happen, because the three big fiends are proud of their customer service.

[Grey Pilgrim]

I think that for now Blackwing is out of the harms way. The feinds seem to have brought him down solely because his soul is linked to V's and from the way they act it seems to me that the same protection they granted V will be applied trough the said link to Blackwing as well.

As for what might happen at the couch... Well, Sabine is a known shapeshifter and an incarnation of illicite sex, so virtually anything can happen there. Yet it probably won't.

[Zea mays]

Wow.

I also want to see the chat between V and Sabine.

*random observation*
Now I'm sorry that Nale left so quickly. It has already been established that Sabine's love for him is stronger than her loyalty to the fiends. It would have been interesting to see those dynamics unfold further.

[the_tick_rules]

I knew there was going to be a few loopholes.

[Sir_Leorik]

Huh. Looks like I was wrong about two things and right about one: The IFCC will not possess V. They also don't seem to care about Blackwing, though they did manage to snag him up as well.

But I was right: the IFCC want the Gates destroyed. And they will sit back and watch Roy destroy Girard's Gate, along with Sabine. (Hey, its not like she can return to the Material Plane for another twenty hours or so, right? :smallbiggrin:)

[Sir_Leorik]

I think that for now Blackwing is out of the harms way. The feinds seem to have brought him down solely because his soul is linked to V's and from the way they act it seems to me that the same protection they granted V will be applied trough the said link to Blackwing as well.

As for what might happen at the couch... Well, Sabine is a known shapeshifter and an incarnation of illicite sex, so virtually anything can happen there. Yet it probably won't.

V's soul is incorporeal. There isn't much Sabine can do to V... unless Sabine has ghost touch "equipment". :redface:

[Breccia]

The IFCC will make V...do nothing.

FINALLY I get one right!

[Sir_Leorik]

Who says they need to cash it all in at once?


I was thinking the same thing. Just like the IFCC never said that that V's soul would come into their possession after she died, they never said the duration of that possession would occur all at once. So much for "Contracts are for people with something to hide". :smallannoyed:

[Sir_Leorik]

FINALLY I get one right!

Well done!

[Sir_Leorik]

Maybe it's just a sort of waiting room in Hell.

They're in the IFCC's Lower Planar Headquarters. We've seen it before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) Sabine's been stuck there watching the blood plasma TV (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) ever since she was banished by Durkon's holy word spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)

[Heksefatter]

But what does BOGO stand for?

Also, totally awesome strip. The current arch is by far my favourite.

[Shale]

Buy One, Get One (free).

[JackRackham]

Holy sh*t, one of my predictions came right! I called this interpretation of V's contract several months ago - I knew they had no claim to his/her body.

[Breccia]

Well done!

Yes, well, my overall prediction record is still really poor. For example, I have this theory that

the Snarl is actually 4th Edition rules

that will almost certainly be proven wrong.

And yes, "nice" to see Sabine back in the picture. I'm sure those two irrelevant gendered creatures will have LOTS to talk about.

[Heksefatter]

Buy One, Get One (free).

Ah, of course. Thanks.

[F.Harr]

BOGO = Buy one, get one free.

Or half off or something.

[Sir_Leorik]

I have a question, and it's possible we just don't have the entire picture, even now.

If their plan was to keep V from intervening to protect the gate, then why would it have been a waste if Xykon won their fight?


Because they had no way to protect V from Xykon. They can't leave the Lower Planes except to make deals with mortals. They need lesser fiends, like Qarr and Sabine, as well as mortal pawns like Nale, in order to carry out their plans.

The thing is that we don't know exactly what their plan is. It involves the destruction of the Gates, but that's it. They clearly wanted to keep V from protecting the Gates, but they also want to increase her paranoid and off-balance. But their plans required her to be alive; she's no good to them dead.

[Goosefeather]

Or half off or something.

I've always known it as "Buy One, Get One For Free", which allows for the fun, if puerile, acrostic BOG OFF.

[TRH]

V's soul is incorporeal. There isn't much Sabine can do to V... unless Sabine has ghost touch "equipment". :redface:

Eh, if it were completely intangible, then there wouldn't be a point in strapping her down, now would there? :smallamused:

[WindStruck]

Since they can't "possess" V's body, it leads me further to believe that they will still gank his soul and attempt a splice of it with other beings. Like Z, for instance, who has Qarr for a familiar and is probably also an unwitting IFCC pawn.

[Sir_Leorik]

No, we call it a win for people who were betting that the fiends would be able to collect on the contract while Vaarsuvius was alive but unable to actually control her/his body in any way.

And a loss for the people who were insisting the contract would only be fulfilled after Vaarsuvius died, as well as any who insisted the fiends would be able to control her/his body on the mortal plane.

I think its more complicated than that. Maybe we should award points and then declare a winner.

Anyone who argued that the deal couldn't be invoked while V lived gets zero points.

Anyone who argued that the deal could be invoked while V lived, and that would allow for the fiends to create a soul splice/return Darth V gets one point.

Anyone who argued that the deal could be invoked while V lived, but that they couldn't possess V, gets five points. If they also predicted that Cedrik would invoke the deal, in order to keep V off the playing field, they get another five points.

Anyone with ten points wins first place. Everyone with five points gets second place. Everyone with one point gets an honorable mention. Everyone with zero points lost.

Agreed?

[Snails]

This might have been true at some time in the First or Second Age. But during the War of the Ring the elves are notable by their inactivity. Lorien contributes some equipment, Mirkwood sends Legolas, Rivendell offers lodging and advice, the Grey Havens send nothing as far as I can tell. Given the catastrophe they face it's a pathetic effort. Galadriel personally is one of the most powerful figures in Middle Earth, so she probably could have made a substantial contribution just on her own, but instead the elves let Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor, etc. do the lifting.

At a superficial level, yes.

There is an underlying assumption that Sauron greatly fears someone may successfully command the full powers of the One Ring, kick his arse, and leave him to suffer another 3000 years of powerless humiliation until he can make another go at it. Galadriel and Elrond guessed this. Thus apparent inaction became part of the plan. By holding a few very powerful players in reserve, the Eye would spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the intent of Mirkwood, Rivendale, Lothlorien, Isengard.

[Sir_Leorik]

Since they can't "possess" V's body, it leads me further to believe that they will still gank his soul and attempt a splice of it with other beings. Like Z, for instance, who has Qarr for a familiar and is probably also an unwitting IFCC pawn.

It's not that they "can't" possess V's body, it's that they "won't" possess V's body. V never agreed to having her body possessed, so they won't possess her body. (They're even protecting it. What awesome customer service these guys provide! :smalltongue:) I think that splicing V's soul would a) violate the terms of the deal, and b) be totally unnecessary. Roy's about to destroy the Gate, and that's what they want.

[hamishspence]

At a superficial level, yes.

There is an underlying assumption that Sauron greatly fears someone may successfully command the full powers of the One Ring, kick his arse, and leave him to suffer another 3000 years of powerless humiliation until he can make another go at it. Galadriel and Elrond guessed this. Thus apparent inaction became part of the plan. By holding a few very powerful players in reserve, the Eye would spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the intent of Mirkwood, Rivendale, Lothlorien, Isengard.

I think that Dol Guldur was also taken down by Galadriel during the War of the Ring. Wasn't it in the appendices?

[Adaon Nightwind]

I did not expect this development. As in, taking the soul, do not use the body.

I certainly did not expect Blackwing along for the ride.

[WindStruck]

I think its more complicated than that. Maybe we should award points and then declare a winner.

Anyone who argued that the deal couldn't be invoked while V lived gets zero points.

Anyone who argued that the deal could be invoked while V lived, and that would allow for the fiends to create a soul splice/return Darth V gets one point.

Anyone who argued that the deal could be invoked while V lived, but that they couldn't possess V, gets five points. If they also predicted that Cedrik would invoke the deal, in order to keep V off the playing field, they get another five points.

Anyone with ten points wins first place. Everyone with five points gets second place. Everyone with one point gets an honorable mention. Everyone with zero points lost.

Agreed?
Agreed! Except it's too bad the points don't matter. Just like the police department in Columbia. Or soap in the men's room. Or the talent portion of a beauty contest. :smalltongue:

These are Who's Line is it Anyway? jokes.

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't understand their plan.

That makes sense, it hasn't been fully revealed. Maybe they'll do a bit of gloating next strip and drop some more clues.


They gave the elf nearly unlimited power. That power enabled him/her to teleport to Azure City, challenge Xykon, and before leaving the city, sending Blackwing to throw the Phylactery in the gate, which made him finding out there is a planet in there. Now the next step in their evil plan is to use the contract to prevent V from using the information they gave to him?

No. They made the deal with V so they would be able to remove her soul at a critical point in time. They suspected that if given this much raw power V would try to lash out at Xykon, and they suspected that would be enough to get Xykon off his bony tuchus.


Sounds like they made a mistake and now are trying to fix it. Maybe the other two fiends still have a purpose for V's soul.

The IFCC directors are working as a group towards a single purpose. If a member goes off script they try to question why he's doing so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

[snikrept]

I like how they specifically mention Vs body will come to no harm. Otherwise, KRACKAKOOOMsplat goes the elf!

[Sir_Leorik]

At a superficial level, yes.

There is an underlying assumption that Sauron greatly fears someone may successfully command the full powers of the One Ring, kick his arse, and leave him to suffer another 3000 years of powerless humiliation until he can make another go at it. Galadriel and Elrond guessed this. Thus apparent inaction became part of the plan. By holding a few very powerful players in reserve, the Eye would spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the intent of Mirkwood, Rivendale, Lothlorien, Isengard.

Ah, the "Giant in the Playground" forums. Come for the endless debates over Wild Mad Guessing and Epileptic Trees, stay for the erudite discussion of all things Middle Earth! :smallsmile:

[sihnfahl]

The IFCC directors are working as a group towards a single purpose. If a member goes off script they try to question why he's doing so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)
Actually, that was part of the script. It was to push V into making the decision by playing to V's ego.

Qarr pointed that out in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)

[OneSpartan]

"All that is required for Evil to triumph is for Neutral elves to do nothing"


Awesome line! This needs to be on a t-shirt YESTERDAY!!!


.

[Sir_Leorik]

V has to watch the scene play out, while sitting next to Sabine, while held immobile, and can't do anything at all to prevent what s/he thinks is a big mistake, and you don't think this is torture?

It could be worse. Qarr could be there. He's far more annoying than Sabine. Remember, Sabine likes V.

[Sir_Leorik]

That might be the lawful evil take on it; wonder if the chaotic partner's going to be so scrupulous...

Cedrik is the Chaotic Evil one, although he is a little more Lawful than other Demons.

[BroomGuys]

I think that Dol Guldur was also taken down by Galadriel during the War of the Ring. Wasn't it in the appendices?

I thought Dol Guldur went down during the Battle of Five Armies, largely due to Saruman's machinations (and therefore maybe just a cover to move back in to Barad Dur).

And concerning the gate: I think we're just about guaranteed to see Xykon soon, since the Oracle said he would be within 1,000 feet of Girard's gate before he would be that close to Kraagor's. If Roy destroys the gate, then Xykon is almost certainly within 1,000 feet, so we might get the LG vs. TE showdown anyway. For all we know, the IFCC is also doing this to protect V, since, Xykon will probably recognize him/her (much to Roy's chagrin).

[hamishspence]

I thought Dol Guldur went down during the Battle of Five Armies, largely due to Saruman's machinations (and therefore maybe just a cover to move back in to Barad Dur)

They did attack it- and he did flee it- but not long after his return to Mordor, he had Dol Guldur reoccupied by his forces- including at least one Nazgul.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes, well, my overall prediction record is still really poor. For example, I have this theory that

the Snarl is actually 4th Edition rules

that will almost certainly be proven wrong.


Ooh, don't know how to break it to ya, but according to S,S&DT the Fourth Dimension has nothing to do with the Snarl.

Sorry. :smallfrown:

[rodneyAnonymous]

CEdrik = Chaotic Evil, LEe = Lawful Evil, NEro = Neutral Evil


They get control over V's soul, but not V's body. I don't think anyone called that.

*cough* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15537788#post15537788)


Anyone who argued that the deal could be invoked while V lived, but that they couldn't possess V, gets five points.

Heh :)

[Trixie]

Lorien contributes some equipment, Mirkwood sends Legolas, Rivendell offers lodging and advice, the Grey Havens send nothing as far as I can tell.

Grey Haven sent Narya, probably deciding factor in Balrog fight. That was a lot.

As for strip, I don't know, I sort of felt like 80% of what devils said was exposition list aimed at theories/criticism/predictions/guesses from forums. Was a bit immersion breaking for me :smallfrown:

Say, bit about 'neutral' elf. Leaving aside V killed more innocents than Belkar, why not use opportunity to taunt V by serving reminder of genocide? They're evil, are they not? They should be last people to call V neutral, as they have little interest in truth except when convenient by definition.

[Kish]

Say, bit about 'neutral' elf. Leaving aside V killed more innocents than Belkar, why not use opportunity to taunt V by serving reminder of genocide? They're evil, are they not? They should be last people to call V neutral, as they have little interest in truth except when convenient by definition.
"All that is required for Evil to triumph is for Evil elves to do nothing" would make no sense.

[Tragak]

As for strip, I don't know, I sort of felt like 80% of what devils said was exposition list aimed at theories/criticism/predictions/guesses from forums. Was a bit immersion breaking for me :smallfrown:

Personally, I don't mind stuff like that because Vaarsuvius, in spite of his/her best efforts, does actually know what he/she is doing. If something doesn't make sense to the reasonable people here, it might not make sense to V either, so why wouldn't the character need explanations the same way we do?

[One Skunk Todd]

Being tied down next to a bored Succubus? Fanfic will go crazy.
But nothing will happen, because the three big fiends are proud of their customer service.

Don't forget, they can do with V's soul as they please. It's only the body they've promised not to harm.

[twa_pehs]

Long time reader but first time poster here. First time I've ever browsed the discussion thread and thought of something no-one else seems to have mentioned, apologies if they have.

The fiends say that they wont take over V's body and even if they're telling the truth some have pointed out that that doesn't mean that they can't. What if they get V's permission? If V thinks that the only way to stop Xykon (or some other equally persuasive scenario) is allowing them to take over his body I think its possible he/she would say yes. In V's current frame of mind it could possibly even be manipulated to look like the only chance of redemption. On the other hand perhaps the lessons about brute force have sunk in and such an offer would be rejected even if it genuinely was the best way to save all of creation, compounding V's mistakes further.

Of course this depends heavily on what the fiends goal is and what the gates and snarl actually do.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The fiends say that they wont take over V's body and even if they're telling the truth some have pointed out that that doesn't mean that they can't. What if they get V's permission?

V's permission is not what is stopping them. (Well, that too, but having it wouldn't help.) They can't act directly on the mortal plane, and possessing people is taking direct action.

[littlebum2002]

Sorry, sometimes I repeat things which have already been noticed since I post so late. Anyway, I read the first 4 pages or so, and didn't see anyone point these out, so...


1) As someone mentioned, it seems like INCREDIBLY good foresight that the IFCC realized that simply taking V out of play for ~45 minutes total would be a total game changer. However, they are supposed to be ultra sneaky and observant, and yet they could have taken SO much more advantage over V! V expected them to posses her, all they had to do was change the contract from "ownership" to "possession", and V still would have agreed. Why not take the chance to get more out of the deal?


2) Do the OOTS not realize that, if this gate explodes as violently as the last one, this is suicide for the entire party?

[rodneyAnonymous]

V expected them to posses her...

What?! No. Possessing V's body could not have been part of the deal, and s/he didn't think they could possess V's soul before s/he died, so s/he definitely wasn't expecting bodily possession.

[hamishspence]

Except for a few moments after falling into their hands.

[ManuelSacha]

1) The guy who said that the three demons would make V "do nothing" was spot on... despite all the people explaining to him how that didn't make sense.

2) I was spot on, when I pointed out that, even though they are allied and do everything together, which demon gets the soul and for how much time definitely matters... despite all the people explaining to me that it didn't.

[David Argall]

Now what are the fiends up to? To take V out of action for under an hour? This makes even less sense than wanting his soul. They are simply paying too much attention and resources to get back their investment, much less the sort of profit they have in mind.
To take V out of action at a crucial time? But the fiends don't know the future that well. They don't know if a crucial time will even happen, [Given that either V or X could have been destroyed fairly easily in their confrontation, there was obviously a major chance no such crucial time would ever happen.] And they know even less that the removal will have the desired effect.
To destroy the gate? But again where is the payoff for them? On the facts we know, the gate is about to be destroyed anyway. That V was going to stop the party from destroying the gate? How? She is having great problems just getting their attention. Convincing them? I don't believe a single poster took his worries as convincing. They would have just ignored her plea and busted the gate without the fiends needing to do a thing.
a somewhat more possible idea is that they are trying to preserve the gate, to be taken over by the LG. With V able to intervene with very violent methods, a fight between the two sides could allow somebody the chance to destroy the gate. [V switching sides would likely be even more decisive, but that does cause real worries that V will then quit the party in some way. The fiends also say they can't use his body, but while usually truthful {but not honest}, the fiends have told at least one outright lie, meaning taking over V is not off the table.] So the plan may be that the LG comes back. [I think X will arrive first, but...]
Ruining this gate and trying for the last is dubious. X has to have a superior chance to win that gate. Much better to try here and keep the last as a spare.
A possible plan is that the fiends really can't affect the material plane, which means they can't affect the gate either, meaning they need some front man to give the actual orders. Nale or Z look qualified. So the plan was for X and the party to battle while Nale gains the gate.

[littlebum2002]

What?! No. Possessing V's body could not have been part of the deal, and s/he didn't think they could possess V's soul before s/he died, so s/he definitely wasn't expecting bodily possession.



Aah, OK. So V thought they would posses her "soul", and if they put the word "body" in there, it would tip her off to the details they didn't want her to know about. I assumed that she assumed that they would posses her body after death, but that doesn't make much sense, as it would be useless if she died in an explosion, fire, etc.


However, I stand by my statement that, unless they predict the future, they can't possibly have expected "take V out of the fight 3 times" to have such an amazing effect. There was a very specific and detailed set of circumstances that let this happen.

If V had been separated from the party, but not able to hear, then ownership of her body would not be necessary.
If V was with the party, and suddenly fell silent and stiff as a board, I'm sure the team would wait until she was conscious again to continue, at what point she would explain the details.

Therefore, I think the only possible explanation (other than the cop out of "the IFCC can see the future") is that there are other plans that they have that will let them have some control over her body. Not possession, because I doubt they would resort to something as crass as lying, but some of the other methods that more D&D knowledgeable posters mentioned.

[One Skunk Todd]

2) Do the OOTS not realize that, if this gate explodes as violently as the last one, this is suicide for the entire party?

Which could very well be what the fiends are hoping for.

[rodneyAnonymous]

However, I stand by my statement that, unless they predict the future, they can't possibly have expected "take V out of the fight 3 times" to have such an amazing effect.

We have only seen them (merely) "take V out of the fight" 1 time. The other 2 uses will probably be different. (Though I still think bodily possession is not on the table.)

[Adeptus]

Of course, being evil, she might rape V. Which wouldn't tell us much about V, either.
This isn't that sort of comic. Seriously.

[Killer Angel]

Major ouch on the last line. :smallfurious:

Yeah, it hurts.
But the style, man, that's real Evil with Style! :smallcool:

[Obscure Blade]

At a superficial level, yes.

There is an underlying assumption that Sauron greatly fears someone may successfully command the full powers of the One Ring, kick his arse, and leave him to suffer another 3000 years of powerless humiliation until he can make another go at it. Actually, if someone mastered the Ring like that, Sauron would have been reduced to impotence permanently; exactly as he was when the Ring was destroyed. If someone were to master it, the Ring would be their Ring not Sauron's; whether it's destroyed or mastered he loses the Ring and everything he put into it, so the effects are the same.

[Shale]

To take V out of action at a crucial time? But the fiends don't know the future that well. They don't know if a crucial time will even happen, [Given that either V or X could have been destroyed fairly easily in their confrontation, there was obviously a major chance no such crucial time would ever happen.] And they know even less that the removal will have the desired effect.

Wait, so people can only have plans if they literally know the future?

[talkamancer]

English is not my native language, pls be kind to my grammar

I'm sure she is a lovely sweet grey haired old lady.

[Arceus]

I think we can say the IFCC have some very deep plans going on here.

[Tock Zipporah]

V's soul is incorporeal. There isn't much Sabine can do to V... unless Sabine has ghost touch "equipment". :redface:

That didn't stop Roy's mother from whoring up the afterlife after she died. I'm pretty sure when you're on one of the outer planes that serve as the afterlife (heaven in Roy's case, hell in V's), you are still considered corporeal even without a physical body.

Likewise, Roy was able to fight in a battle against corporeal enemies that plane shifted in.

[Snails]

Actually, if someone mastered the Ring like that, Sauron would have been reduced to impotence permanently; exactly as he was when the Ring was destroyed. If someone were to master it, the Ring would be their Ring not Sauron's; whether it's destroyed or mastered he loses the Ring and everything he put into it, so the effects are the same.

Unclear. To command the powers of the One Ring may or may not include indefinite mastery. But, as you suggest, if Sauron were ever to consider the possibility, he might well wonder if such a fate would be a bad as annihilation. It is implied that someone like Galadriel could potentially possess and be possessed by the Ring indefinitely. Sauron fears how bad it could be, even as he clings to the hope that no one could ever command his precious Ring.

The important point is that we have no reason to believe Sauron himself really understands how the Ring would function in the hands of another. He has suspicions, but he does not know -- that anyone else would ever possess his Ring for even an instant was never considered when it was created. Not knowing breeds fear and uncertainty.