So Why Do The Fiends Need V Alive? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Sunken Valley

2013-07-02, 08:21 AM

On Two Occasions, the IFCC (or Quarr) has expressed interest in keeping V alive. In this strip, Quarr says he won't let any of the Linear Guild hurt V. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html). Shortly afterwards, V is sent to the salad dimension (chosen by Quarr). Here, Quarr deliberately tries to motivate V to go Gate Hunting, when leaving him moping would produce the same effect the fiends desire. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html). The IFCC have also stated "If the Elf dies this whole thing is a waste of time".

Now we see that their grand plan for V's soul involves removing him from play temporarily for 20.6 mins (with two more chances to do so). But wouldn't they be able to remove him more effectively if he was dead for good. Why did the IFCC give V "ultimate power" if the only benefit is giving him an off switch they control for 44.4 mins total? They could produce a greater long term effect by killing him.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-02, 08:43 AM

They could produce a greater long term effect by killing him.

Then the Order would recruit a new Wizard. One that would not be compromised by the IFCC.

The objective of the IFCC isn't to cripple the Order, only to mantain the balance to ensure maximum destruction. It seems obvious at this point that they want the gates destroyed.

OctoberRaven

2013-07-02, 08:51 AM

Actually only two of them have V's soul for the full time. The other (The Chaotic one I think?) only has it for eight minutes (due to the shock of V's family looking at V with more fear than the dragon that almost ate them making the necromancer get loose).

As far as the question... I think it's partially to see if V will actually succumb to evil due to lust for power, partially because if V gets to be more powerful, V's soul might be more potent as a result... they have seen a ton of potential in V after all, which is why V was chosen for Soul Splice in the first place.

Also perhaps they want to give future soul-sellers some confidence that there won't be some Ghost Rider-esque shenanigans in the deal.

skim172

2013-07-02, 08:57 AM

I think they would likely respond that killing V would be outside the bounds of their legal contract. They won't possess V's body, and they won't take V's life, either.

Also, they probably find it more useful to have V as one of their pawns rather than knock him off the board.

hamishspence

2013-07-02, 09:15 AM

Actually only two of them have V's soul for the full time. The other (The Chaotic one I think?) only has it for eight minutes (due to the shock of V's family looking at V with more fear than the dragon that almost ate them making the necromancer get loose).

The figures are given here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

Nero, the Daemon with the purple speech (so NE) has it for 3 min 6 seconds.

Reddish Mage

2013-07-02, 11:26 AM

The motives of the IFCC as they give to Qarr is simply to create as much conflict as possible. Which is transparently what they are doing by insuring the gate's destruction.

Of course, stirring the pot in a universe altering conflict without any stake in its outcome would be a poor use of the combined resources of three pits of damnation whose stated long term goal is domination over the upper planes.

Defiant

2013-07-02, 11:38 AM

I believe more of the plans will be revealed as the story unfolds.

Roland Itiative

2013-07-02, 12:14 PM

Then the Order would recruit a new Wizard. One that would not be compromised by the IFCC.

That makes sense for the first time they take V's soul in. For the second or the third, it's quite likely that V will already have told the Order about his problems, or left of his own accord (I mean, it made sense for him to keep it private when it was just a matter of his afterlife being compromised, but now it's about him becoming unreliable as a party member on the most crucial moments), then the Order would prepare a replacement anyway (or just go forth without a primary arcane caster, which, again, would be the same as the IFCC letting V die).

I still think there's something very fishy in the whole deal, we haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet. Either that, or we have a bit of poor writing in our hands, but I wouldn't bet on this, seeing the quality of Rich's work.

Heksefatter

2013-07-02, 12:25 PM

1) We've not seen the entirety of the IFCC's plans.

2) Even neglecting the above, the IFCC would be able sabotage things much more efficiently, if they were able to stop V completely unexpectedly at any given moment. They did not know that the situation would turn out as it did, with V separated from the rest of the Order. However, they knew that "deactivating" the Order's wizard could influence things quite a lot, if done at the appropriate juncture, even if they did not know exactly what the juncture would be.

Gorm_the_DBA

2013-07-02, 12:56 PM

Tragak

2013-07-02, 01:54 PM

Of course, stirring the pot in a universe altering conflict without any stake in its outcome would be a poor use of the combined resources of three pits of damnation whose stated long term goal is domination over the upper planes. Maybe, if the IFCC do manage to coordinate the different Evil realms to destroy the Good realms, they will disband and re-start the Blood War to keep victory from getting in the way of conflict?

rodneyAnonymous

2013-07-02, 02:07 PM

Why did the IFCC give V "ultimate power" if the only benefit is giving him an off switch they control for 44.4 mins total? They could produce a greater long term effect by killing him.

To the people saying "the IFCC wouldn't do that to a business partner" (etc), they had repeated opportunities to just let V die. (That is, let V be killed by someone else.)

It is an interesting question. Especially since letting V sit and mope would have had the same effect as having Qarr "motivate" V and then taking possession of the elf's soul so s/he can't stop Roy from destroying the Gate.

Flame of Anor

2013-07-02, 02:12 PM

They have so far stuck to the "deceiving without actually lying" archetype of diabolic temptation. I note that they have not actually said, outright, that taking control of V's body was out of the question. Sure, it's not happening right now, but what if it's in the cards for next time? They could be tricking V into believing that it isn't, so that s/he won't take proper precautions.

Edit: wait, they say that doing that would be a gross violation of their contract. So I guess it's unlikely.

sihnfahl

2013-07-02, 02:12 PM

It is an interesting question. Especially since letting V sit and mope would have had the same effect as having Qarr "motivate" V and then taking possession of the elf's soul so s/he can't stop Roy from destroying the Gate.
But it wouldn't be as much fun.

V's now being hammered, time and again, with the repercussions of the deal.

How can V look at anyone now and feel anything but soul-crushing regret.

V's actions resulted in a divorce. Family's gone.
Won't be able to look at Roy with anything but regret - V's actions resulted in the entirely wrong things happening...

rodneyAnonymous

2013-07-02, 02:16 PM

They have so far stuck to the "deceiving without actually lying" archetype of diabolic temptation. I note that they have not actually said, outright, that taking control of V's body was out of the question. Sure, it's not happening right now, but what if it's in the cards for next time? They could be tricking V into believing that it isn't, so that s/he won't take proper precautions.

The rules of the deal with V don't say taking control of V's body is out of the question, but the rules of The Powers of Good and Evil (I think?) do.

V's now being hammered, time and again, with the repercussions of the deal.

The fiends' goal is something a lot more sinister than making V feel bad.

sihnfahl

2013-07-02, 02:39 PM

The fiends' goal is something a lot more sinister than making V feel bad.
Well, of course, but consider this.

By constantly hammering V with the message, V will be less likely to do anything or put V's self in a position where V can be used by the fiends to further their agenda. Even if that 'something' is nothing.

Like, say, Roy backed into a corner and needing V's help? IFCC decides it's time for Roy to go? V goes comatose...

The bishop has been pushed into a corner and its advance blocked.

HyperInferno

2013-07-02, 02:49 PM

Its quite simple. They want a very destructive stalemate to occur between the three groups (OOTS, LG, and Team Evil). Killing V would put LG and Team Evil ahead, which is not what they want. Disabling V for a set amount of time however..... can tip the scales JUST the right amount.

martianmister

2013-07-02, 03:49 PM

Whole "gate" plot is just some bogus story. What they really want is...

...torturing Vaarsuvius in every imaginable way.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-02, 04:14 PM

That makes sense for the first time they take V's soul in. For the second or the third, it's quite likely that V will already have told the Order about his problems, or left of his own accord

Yet she has not, still, told anything. And it's uncertain that she will have the guts to do so in the future.

Either that, or we have a bit of poor writing in our hands, but I wouldn't bet on this, seeing the quality of Rich's work.

From a storytelling point of view, the IFCC will leave V with a hard decision between tell the Order and face the consequences, or shut up and compromise the outcome of the mission.

The fiends' goal is something a lot more sinister than making V feel bad.

Yes. I bet the IFCC wants to release the Snarl and unmade the world. They plan is not to use the Snarl for anything, their plan is to make noise in order to get more funding to their deparment. And what a better way to make noise than destroying the material plane?

Sylthia

2013-07-02, 04:29 PM

Do they actually benefit from the gates destroying the multiverse? I could see demons doing that, but devils like their order, so there may be other things at work.

Sethala

2013-07-02, 04:31 PM

Yet she has not, still, told anything. And it's uncertain that she will have the guts to do so in the future.

Keep in mind that the only chance V had to tell anyone anything important was immediately after finding out about the familicide's effects.

Before that, V thought what she did was regrettable and foolish, but not with significant consequences that would affect anyone else in the group. Now that V knows more of the ramifications of the soul splice, I doubt she'll be as quiet about it.

Tragak

2013-07-02, 04:38 PM

Do they actually benefit from the gates destroying the multiverse? I could see demons doing that, but devils like their order, so there may be other things at work. They probably don't want to Actually destroy everything, just threaten to as a way of defeating the Good deities. Devils believe that the strong should weed out the weak as efficiently as possible, so they would probably still want the Blood War as much as the demons do, they just don't want the side of Good to benefit from being out of the way.

Flame of Anor

2013-07-02, 06:29 PM

We still don't have a clear picture of the IFCC's endgame. I wonder if they know about the true nature of the rifts.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-02, 07:05 PM

Do they actually benefit from the gates destroying the multiverse? I could see demons doing that, but devils like their order, so there may be other things at work.

What multiverse? Last time the Snarl attacked, the Gods remained perfectly safe in their respective home planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). The release of the Snarl would be bad news for the world created by the Gods and presumably the plane it is on (probably the material one), but nothing else.

With the Ritual, yes, the Snarl could be released to other planes. But to the date, the IFCC has shown no interest in the ritual. Otherwise they wouldn't be interferring to allow the destruction of a Gate.

The IFCC stated their objective back in these two strips:
1) They want more resources to their department in order to unify the fiendish races and storm the upper planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
2) In the conflict for the Gates, they want neither side to win. They want destructive, unnecesary conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

"Neither side to win" is achieved if all gates are blown up. Promoting "destructive unnecesary conflict" leads to all the gates blown up.

Destroying the world leads to their main objective, show their bosses what can be accomplished by cooperation between the fiendish races, thus increasing the funding of their commitee and coming close to their dream to unify all the fiendish races.

They never said they wanted the Snarl to release it on the upper planes. They plan their own, unified brethen to assault them.

So, that's basically my bet on the IFCC's motives.

Roland Itiative

2013-07-02, 08:27 PM

Yet she has not, still, told anything. And it's uncertain that she will have the guts to do so in the future.
As I said, before this it was all a matter of his own afterlife, nothing that concerns the Order (although the planet thing could have been shared). Now it's a matter of his unreliability as a party member, a whole different level of importance. If he refuses to tell the Order anything when they next meet, V will be actively and willingly screwing them by omission of information.

Bulldog Psion

2013-07-02, 08:33 PM

I think it's too early in the game for us to see the whole detail of their eeeevil plot.

Clearly, their hold over V is going to be used 3 times. Why else have 3 debts rather than just one? :smallwink:

137beth

2013-07-02, 08:35 PM

What constantly bewilders me about speculation here is that some forum members are convinced that they totally understand the IFCC's goal, and plan. Stuff we actually know about the IFCC's plan: it involves the gates. That's it. So the answer to "wouldn't it have made more sense to kill V?" is "no, because there is something else, not yet revealed, for which they need V alive." Maybe they need V to help the order not lose too early, since he/she is still a powerful asset to the order. Maybe they actually can posses hir, and are saving it for later. Maybe V's body is a key ingredient in a ritual they have to control the last gate. Maybe it is something else that you wouldn't understand without actually having the faintest idea of what their goal is.

Reddish Mage

2013-07-02, 08:49 PM

What multiverse? Last time the Snarl attacked, the Gods remained perfectly safe in their respective home planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). The release of the Snarl would be bad news for the world created by the Gods and presumably the plane it is on (probably the material one), but nothing else.

With the Ritual, yes, the Snarl could be released to other planes. But to the date, the IFCC has shown no interest in the ritual. Otherwise they wouldn't be interferring to allow the destruction of a Gate.

The IFCC stated their objective back in these two strips:
1) They want more resources to their department in order to unify the fiendish races and storm the upper planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
2) In the conflict for the Gates, they want neither side to win. They want destructive, unnecesary conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

"Neither side to win" is achieved if all gates are blown up. Promoting "destructive unnecesary conflict" leads to all the gates blown up.

Destroying the world leads to their main objective, show their bosses what can be accomplished by cooperation between the fiendish races, thus increasing the funding of their commitee and coming close to their dream to unify all the fiendish races.

They never said they wanted the Snarl to release it on the upper planes. They plan their own, unified brethen to assault them.

So, that's basically my bet on the IFCC's motives.

Wow, I was about to comment how absolutely NO ONE on the forums has taken the IFCC's stated goals on face value. Now I see someone has actually did.

If the IFCC's goal is to stir the pot, meaning simply ensure no one wins and the conflict is prolonged as much as possible without a stake in its outcome (which is what the IFCC states) it seems that V is simply one chess piece out of many the IFCC have. If the IFCC actually desires to destroy all the gates and undo the world (they didn't say it but its compatible with those goals), its not clear that V is all that necessary (sure it proved useful to have V's soul at this juncture, but allowing V to be killed would have accomplished the same).

I can see the IFCC understanding that it is useful to have a shutoff switch in the main artillery of one of the major factions in the contest for the gate (better than having that faction replace their wizard or being too weak to be an equal contestant) but that is a very subtle and tenuous form of control.

Lord Torath

2013-07-02, 10:21 PM

The IFCC's motives are more sinister than that. They are going for POWER! Enough power that killing one third (in V's estimation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)) of the metallic dragons of the world will be trivial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). So I have to conclude that we still don't know the IFCC's plans for the gate. Unless they have a similar idea to Redcloak's...

The Pilgrim

2013-07-03, 04:03 AM

The IFCC's motives are more sinister than that. They are going for POWER! Enough power that killing one third (in V's estimation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)) of the metallic dragons of the world will be trivial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

Guess what... if the Snarl is released, they would have achieved to kill not only 1/3 good dragons in the world, but all of them.

Defiant

2013-07-03, 06:41 AM

Guess what... if the Snarl is released, they would have achieved to kill not only 1/3 good dragons in the world, but all of them.

...Along with the evil dragons :smallconfused:

The Pilgrim

2013-07-03, 07:08 AM

...Along with the evil dragons :smallconfused:

So? The IFCC would have fulfilled their deal with Tiamat, which was to kill 5 Good dragons for each black one killed by Darth V. They never promised to care for the well-being of the remaining evil dragons.

laplacedemon

2013-07-03, 07:36 AM

Reddish Mage

2013-07-03, 03:44 PM

So? The IFCC would have fulfilled their deal with Tiamat, which was to kill 5 Good dragons for each black one killed by Darth V. They never promised to care for the well-being of the remaining evil dragons.

We know the IFCC has plans for the gates, they are either to get all the gates destroyed, gain control over the last gate (why they don't take this one is then a question), or use the last gate for some other third purpose. Whatever their plans, it's result will make the genocidal slaughter of good dragons trivial.

I would note that the fight over the last gate promises to be bloody and epic and to involve all the actors the IFCC were referring to by virtue of being the last gate. That doesn't necessarily fulfill the IFCCs plans by itself, however.

dps

2013-07-03, 08:57 PM

Fish

2013-07-05, 10:37 AM

Note that saying "that would be a gross violation of our contract" implies, but does not guarantee, "and we won't do it." If they did violate the contract, there's not much V could do about it.

But I'm really wondering whether we're seeing the wrong thing here. Is this a show being put on for V's benefit? Is this demonic reverse psychology? Are they pretending they want the Gates destroyed, in such a way that V cannot help but overhear them, because they really want V to do the opposite? Face it: they don't just want V alive, they want V to listen in on their dialogue and watch their all-seeing demonic TV. (At least, that's where it seems to be headed.) How easy it would have been to plunk V into a vat of flaming manure for 20 minutes, where V sees and hears nothing.

Newwby

2013-07-05, 11:09 AM

In reality lead is just at an all-time shortage in the lower planes/hell, therefore they've removed V so Roy can destroy the gate and they can send an agent to retrieve the lead Girard used. They have hundreds of these plans in motion throughout the world, trying to amass lead.

F.Harr

2013-07-05, 01:07 PM

Because, were V dead, then couldn't use the selective power of taking V out of the action to influence events.

F.Harr

2013-07-05, 01:23 PM

Sorry for the post-on-post. I'm a bad *****-cat. For folks who get REALLY old Warner Bros. refferences.

So? The IFCC would have fulfilled their deal with Tiamat, which was to kill 5 Good dragons for each black one killed by Darth V. They never promised to care for the well-being of the remaining evil dragons.

Here's my question: Is Tiamat the goddess of ALL dragons or just the evil ones?

We know the IFCC has plans for the gates, they are either to get all the gates destroyed, gain control over the last gate (why they don't take this one is then a question), or use the last gate for some other third purpose. Whatever their plans, it's result will make the genocidal slaughter of good dragons trivial.

I would note that the fight over the last gate promises to be bloody and epic and to involve all the actors the IFCC were referring to by virtue of being the last gate. That doesn't necessarily fulfill the IFCCs plans by itself, however.

Probably because controling the only gate is more powerful than controling on half of the gates. If the Dark One gets a hold of one gate, then there'll likely be less conflict. Possibly, also, they want all the gates destroyed and they're just at this point in their list of them.

In reality lead is just at an all-time shortage in the lower planes/hell, therefore they've removed V so Roy can destroy the gate and they can send an agent to retrieve the lead Girard used. They have hundreds of these plans in motion throughout the world, trying to amass lead.

O.K. I can see that. They're involved in a massive plumbing and painting scheam around the house and lead isn't as dangerous to them as it is to human beings.

Newwby

2013-07-05, 01:47 PM

Here's my question: Is Tiamat the goddess of ALL dragons or just the evil ones?

Evil, Bahamut is the good-aligned counterpart.

O.K. I can see that. They're involved in a massive plumbing and painting scheam around the house and lead isn't as dangerous to them as it is to human beings.

The IFCC is actually a group of hellish plumbers/contractors.

Bulldog Psion

2013-07-05, 02:02 PM

Unity through improved plumbing? :smallbiggrin: That's an idea I can get behind.

F.Harr

2013-07-07, 11:48 AM

Evil, Bahamut is the good-aligned counterpart.

Thanks.

[QUOTE=Bulldog Psion;15560457]Unity through improved plumbing? :smallbiggrin: That's an idea I can get behind.

Me, too. :D