Crusader or Warblade for gestalt charger? 3.5

[lonewulf]

Hello all, thanks for checking out my topic! So here's the deal: I posted a few days ago asking help for a Warforged charger build I was going to play in a new campaign. I received alot of helpful advice (thanks again to all who posted) but unfortunately, the game got scraped due to the DM's personal problems. The good news: I found another group to join who are about to finish their current campaign and start anew. They play gestalt (which I find awesome) but it's not Eberron so I'm no longer a Warforged (now i'm human). So here's where I need new advice:

In this gestalt game, one side of the level progression stays the same from 1-20+. The other side can multi-class. I'm going to take the obligatory 2 level dip into Barbarian on that side and then go into Fighter. But for the 'main' side of the progression, which would you recommend: Crusader or Warblade?

Crusader is appealing due to having more maneuvers/stances, Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike.

Warblade is appealing due to more bonus feats, Uncanny Dodge (which i'm trading away from Barbarian for an alt. class feature), all the different things that get a bonus from my Int and, of course, d12 hit die.

This is 3.5e (though some UA and Exalted Deeds are allowed) and it's using a 28 point buy system. I'm going to be the only melee-type in the party. The rest are ranged and/or magic based.

Thanks again for looking at my topic and thanks especially if you offer advice!

[Snowbluff]

You got leading the charge, right?

Anyway, I'd say Warblade, since Tiger Claw has a maneuver for pouncing and few few bonus feats. If you can dip something else for Pounce, nevermind. :smalltongue:

[TheMooch]

I would go Warblade and for your multiclass side go half-minotaur LA 1/barbarian 2/ fighter 6*/factorum 11

*I think 6 is needed for dungeon crasher

[lonewulf]

You got leading the charge, right?

Anyway, I'd say Warblade, since Tiger Claw has a maneuver for pouncing and few few bonus feats. If you can dip something else for Pounce, nevermind. :smalltongue:

My Barbarian dip will be getting Pounce (Lion Totem) at lvl 1...sorry, I forgot to mention that from start, lol.





I would go Warblade and for your multiclass side go half-minotaur LA 1/barbarian 2/ fighter 6*/factorum 11

*I think 6 is needed for dungeon crasher


Thanks for the suggestions but, as far as race, human is what I am (not carved in stone but i like feats, lol). The DM isn't allowing LA races anyways. Out of curiosity, why do you recommend Factotum for this build (I would have never thought of it)?

[Darrin]

Warforged were printed in MMIII, so they aren't restricted to just Eberron. With a little bit of refluffing, they can appear in any campaign world.

Crusader can take more punishment than a Warblade, and you won't miss the capstone much if you dip into Barbarian for pounce, but the standard action strikes can get a little boring. Warblade is more flexible and has a wider variety of counters/strikes/etc., and will probably be more interesting to play for the long haul.

However... You said this was gestalt? So... Crusader//Warblade?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Factotum is a wonderful addition to Warblade due to the INT synergy and the ability to use inspiration points to gain more standard actions via the 8th level class feature and as many Font of Inspiration feats as you can afford. I'm mobile right now, but I want to say the minmax boards till have the "Factotum of War" build on them, which was a simple 20//20 split with just factotum and warblade.

[lonewulf]

Warforged were printed in MMIII, so they aren't restricted to just Eberron. With a little bit of refluffing, they can appear in any campaign world.

Crusader can take more punishment than a Warblade, and you won't miss the capstone much if you dip into Barbarian for pounce, but the standard action strikes can get a little boring. Warblade is more flexible and has a wider variety of counters/strikes/etc., and will probably be more interesting to play for the long haul.

However... You said this was gestalt? So... Crusader//Warblade?

Didn't know about the Warforged being printed there...i'll see if the DM will allow it.
Also, my big problem with gestalting as a Crusader/Warblade is that I'm wanting to play a 'Charger' build and that is kinda feat-heavy. With that gestalt combo I wouldn't be able to really get going near as fast. Sure, I could do lots of other things with it but that's not what i'm going for. I may still consider it for it's versatile-and-durable qualities, though.

[Metahuman1]

Crusader has more maneuvers for charging since Devoted Spirit has a couple.

On the side your dipping Barbarian take a Warblade dip of a few levels. Still gives you the best tricks like emerald razor strike, concentration in place of save line, Iron Heart surge and Mithrial Tornado, a place to stick the obligatory mountain hammer strike, and a Place to make sure that even if Crusader doesn't grant a charge maneuver on a given round you can still have battle leaders charge ready to go. Then on the other side grab Crusader 20. Boom, done.

[Daebu]

Crusader has more maneuvers for charging since Devoted Spirit has a couple.

On the side your dipping Barbarian take a Warblade dip of a few levels. Still gives you the best tricks like emerald razor strike, concentration in place of save line, Iron Heart surge and Mithrial Tornado, a place to stick the obligatory mountain hammer strike, and a Place to make sure that even if Crusader doesn't grant a charge maneuver on a given round you can still have battle leaders charge ready to go. Then on the other side grab Crusader 20. Boom, done.

Not quite. Both Warblade and Crusader get White Raven, so the Battle Leader's line is a wash.

Crusader gets the Devoted Spirit alignment based charges, of which you can pick 2 max. And you only get their full benefit if charging an enemy of the proper alignment as well. (Granted that's not rare, but it can be a pain getting zero benefit from a maneuver.) On the other hand Warblade gets the Diamond Mind charge (Bounding Assault) allowing for "bent" charges no matter the alignment of the opponent.

Thus a Crusader or Warblade can both have a couple charge maneuvers on hand. At level 20 this would be War Master's + Bounding Assault, or War Master's + X Alignment Charge.

More importantly, the Warblade has access to Time Stands Still, and Dancing/Raging Mongoose. Both are huge for uber-chargers who love full attack sequences and extra attacks. And once Covering Strike(WR) is available to eliminate AoO's, Sudden Leap(TC)/Quicksilver Motion(DM) become very strong for repeated charging.

As an aside, since most chargers love full attack sequences, the Warblade's recovery mechanic is a natural fit. A Crusader on the other hand might not even have a charge maneuver ready when they want to use one...

Crusaders with Warblade dips make much better lockdown builds.

And UA is allowed? Grab a Major Bloodline! Even without a ridiculous interpretation it is very strong for Martial Initiators! Read up in the Bloodline handbook as to why. Hell, with bloodline, 2 level dip of Crusader in 18 Warblade levels gets tonnes of maneuvers and makes getting the prereqs for more level 9's much easier. Additionally, with the Bloodline, you could wind up getting War Master's Charge/Bounding Assault as a Warblade AND the alignment based charges from Crusader. Then grab the Leading the Charge(WR) stance with your first Crusader level, as it's gold for chargers with Pounce and iteratives (and it satisfies the "level 1 stance at first level" that some DM's hold to.) Since Covering Strike is only needed periodically, it can also be one of your Crusader Maneuvers.

That frees up your Warblade levels to pick up more of the goodies from Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw/Iron Heart. And if you pick the right bloodline, you'll get some of those delicious feats that you love so much without using up your normal feat slots. :)

Edit: Damn, no LA, probably means no Bloodline as well, even if they are technically different.

[Metahuman1]

I feel the need to point out that Time Stands Still Cannot be used on a charge. And if I remember correctly, Raging Mongoose needs you to be TWF or multy attacking/fighting to work.

The point of having a charge maneuver ready when you need it is a valid one, but a single level of warblade on the other side can accomplish this.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are going with shock trooper and dumping your ac through the floor, there is an iron heart counter (manticore parry I think) that lets you deflect an attack with an attack roll, this is perfect because it gives you a last line of defense to avoid damage.

Also, as a note, if you are pursuing pounce, shocktrooper, leapattack, ect, charge maneuvers aren't going to be all that helpful. They seem really keen, until you consider that it's only one attack, where as your regular charge will net you a full attack, which gives you multiple attacks instead of one.

This is important for two reasons:

1) a charge maneuver is all or nothing, if you miss, you skipped your turn, and to make matters worse you are going to have a very hard time charging that opponent next round, and even worse yet, your ac is very low possibly negative, where as a full attack gives you more than one chance.

2) the amount of extra damage those charge maneuvers offers pales in comparison to the damage an additional attack would deal, even when multiplied by the odds of hitting.

So charge maneuvers are a waste.

Also warblade is the better option from a synergistic standpoint. All of crusader's neat little "stay alive" tricks are going be massively reduced in efficacy since a feature of your build is turning off your defenses. A charger's primary defense is offense, with hit points there as an effective, built in hedge on that bet. Crusader offers some healing tricks, some minor buffs, and mostly lots of defense, thus you would be using your whole other side to hedge the bet, which is a massive opportunity cost when you could instead make your main strategy better, and have better non-charging damage options. A charger is almost always the party's main damage dealer, because no one else is going to out damage you (single target) without significantly more opti-fu than you, not even a mailman sorc. Warblades deal more damage, and damage is your job. Both crusader and warblade technically cover some weak spots, but warblade makes you better at your job, where as crusader's only advantage over warblade is in not dying, and winning is a more effective means of not dying for you.

To sum it up: both warblade and crusader help you in not dying, but warblade does it by winning.

This is in no way a slam against crusaders in general, they are great in a number of other situations, I like warblade slightly better but the two are fairly equal (and my overall favoritism of warblade had no bearing on this rant). However in this particular instance the situation favors warblade heavily, mostly due to the raw power of tiger claw and iron heart over devoted spirit (and diamond mind is no slouch).

As an additional note on your opposite side, consider two levels of totemist. You can get two or more natural weapons to your attack routine ensuring that there is no kill like overkill. Or you can grab one of several other neat toys, and you get to repick every day. Also an interesting note about incarnum that people tend to miss due to their experience with casters: if you don't get a good enough sleep to reshape your melds, you can just keep the old ones, they don't go away when you sleep, they stay until you unshape them. And don't just think I bring it up due to being the class's spokesman in gestalt, I bring it up because it will work. Actually I think I have that backward, I'm the spokesman because it almost always works for gestalt characters intent on melee.

[Big Fau]

Darth Stabber, I would like to contest your point about Crusaders. While they do have healing and various other goodies, they practically enjoy being hit in combat and a lower AC from Shock Trooper would do almost nothing to hinder them. While the other side of the build would have to pick up some slack, the Crusader would be providing several bonuses that the Warblade wouldn't (notably Devoted Spirit's stances, such Iron Guard's Glare and that stance that punishes enemies for moving, and a constant bonus to Will saves instead of reliance on one of two Counters).

While both full-BAB martial adepts are excellent for Gestalt, the Warblade is not the "clear choice" for a charger build. Both classes provide different benefits that bolster such a build. It really depends on what the other side of the Gestalt is (the OP only specified 2 levels of Barbarian, the rest was not mentioned).

[Aegis013]

... And if I remember correctly, Raging Mongoose needs you to be TWF or multy attacking/fighting to work.
...

You're not remembering correctly, Raging Mongoose just lets you make two additional attacks with each weapon you are holding. If you're two handing a weapon, you make two extra attacks.

It's more beneficial for TWF's, because they get four extra attacks, but it's still not shabby whatsoever for a swift at its level on a THF.

[Darth Stabber]

Darth Stabber, I would like to contest your point about Crusaders. While they do have healing and various other goodies, they practically enjoy being hit in combat and a lower AC from Shock Trooper would do almost nothing to hinder them. While the other side of the build would have to pick up some slack, the Crusader would be providing several bonuses that the Warblade wouldn't (notably Devoted Spirit's stances, such Iron Guard's Glare and that stance that punishes enemies for moving, and a constant bonus to Will saves instead of reliance on one of two Counters).

While both full-BAB martial adepts are excellent for Gestalt, the Warblade is not the "clear choice" for a charger build. Both classes provide different benefits that bolster such a build. It really depends on what the other side of the Gestalt is (the OP only specified 2 levels of Barbarian, the rest was not mentioned).

Assuming the OP and I are in the same ballpark for the definition of charger, the question is one of output, not defenses, not area control, not finesse, pure straight, make the enemy not alive anymore, power, and ensuring it's application is not impeded. Warblade simply offers more options to ensure that you are causing significant bodily harm than crusader. Damage pool tricks are nice, but having played a non-gestalt ubercharger I can safely say that you really don't take that much damage, smoldering piles of wreckage are rarely a threat. Also every one has a built in method of punishing movement, and with all of your damage, they are sufficiently punished, no stance needed. Add combat brute and you have a massive PA multiplier after your big charge, that will mix nicely with the power of the warblade's superior maneuver access (they have more maneuver choices, and more maneuvers). Also, warblades can get access to what little it might outside of it's native schools via a dip on the other side, or martial study. Only two things matter: power in as great a concentration as you can muster and style, and in a pinch style can slide.

[Daebu]

I feel the need to point out that Time Stands Still Cannot be used on a charge. And if I remember correctly, Raging Mongoose needs you to be TWF or multy attacking/fighting to work.

The point of having a charge maneuver ready when you need it is a valid one, but a single level of warblade on the other side can accomplish this.

As Aegis kindly pointed out. You have remembered incorrectly. Raging Mongoose adds two attacks for each weapon you have (up to a max of 2 weapons). Thus for a TWF it adds 4 attacks, but for a THF it still adds two. This is an output bonus of 50%. Actually it's more since it adds them at your highest attack bonus and has no penalties, and thus is more likely to hit than later iteratives. Taken as a boost on a pounce it's huge damage. It's TC8, so a dip won't get it.

Secondly Time Stands Still is for the second turn after a charge, or if they're too close for a charge, or they've closed to melee upon winning initiative, etc. On a good many fights, even with great optimization, there are more targets than can be eliminated the first round. On the second round if those targets have closed to melee range, you can't charge them as easily. So, instead you use TSS and still beat the stuffing out of them. TSS is DM9, so a dip won't get that either.

Lastly, Sudden Leap and Quicksilver motion are both gap creators that are useful if you want to get another charge. Or they're gap closers if your opponent is far away and you don't want to sacrifice your initiative by moving into their charge range only to have them charge/cast on you. Sudden Leap is TC1, gettable with dip, but has the req of another TC, making a dip more restricted for which goodies you can get. Quicksilver Motion is superior and is DM7, and therefore not possible with a dip.

In short, I understand and share your love for Crusaders, but it's not the righ choice here. As an aside, I think you were thinking of Girallon Windmill Fleshrip. Solid maneuver, but useless if you're not TWFing.

Darth Stabber, I will gladly stand corrected, but last I heard charge maneuvers explicitly worked with pounce. They say to make a charge as normal. Bounding Assault even explicitly states that the mneuver is to be used in conjunction with charge bonuses and feats. (Like Pounce) now obviously Pouncing Charge(TC5) and Pounce are redundant, but due to the similarity in wording between the Charging Maneuvers and the Charge entry in the PHB, charging maneuvers are meant to stack with Pounce. It's up to your DM if the bonus damage only applies once or to each iterative, however. Mind you, War Master's Charge and alignment charges are great even if the damage only applies once, and BA's bonus isn't damage anyway. :p

[lonewulf]

Wow, lots of great replies! Thanks everyone! To clear up a couple things i've seen in your responses:

@Big Fau: I actually did state what my class would be after 2lvs of Barbarian. I'm going Fighter (I need the quick access to feats to 'get the ball rolling') until level 8 (ECL, possibly 6 though). After THAT I haven't decided what to go with.

@Darth Stabber: My whole indecision is based on not being able to decide if I want more damage output OR more recovery/durability. You do make a good point about 'wreckage' not being able to fight back, lol.

Thanks again everybody, i'm still undecided though, lol!