crackpot theory regarding V's bargain [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

theinsulabot

2013-07-03, 05:22 AM

I skimmed the main thread and didn't see this come up, but if I am retreading old ground then I apologize, but is there any chance the IFCC actually can manipulate V's body and are choosing not to do so? The best liar is the one that tells the truth every time until they tell that one lie that absolutely has to be believed.

If V's activity for now only needs to be him not warning them about the gate, then maybe a good plan would to bring him in, keeping him still until it krakakooms, but also slipping in that tiny lie so that later, when V is trying to mitigate the fall out from his bargain, that facet isn't included in his counter measures.

Anyway, just a random idea I had

also, on an unrelated and mostly joking note, V's soul went to the abyss, you woulda thought he would have had X eyes

factotum

2013-07-03, 06:26 AM

hamishspence

2013-07-03, 06:29 AM

There is Baalzebul, sometimes called "Lord of the Lies" (as well as Lord of the Flies)- in BoVD for example. So I could see some devils being very good at lying.

Madfellow

2013-07-03, 09:45 AM

Only one of the Three Fiends is a devil. The other two are a demon and a daemodan, and we have no way of knowing which is which. And only devils are lawful, and therefore unlikely to lie. And even if it was the devil that was talking, the Giant loves averting the D&D alignment system restrictions. We have no way of knowing whether or not that particular fiend was lying or not at that particular time. All we know about him/her is that he/she is evil. And he/she isn't evil because he/she's a devil/demon/daemodan (this is one of the Giant's characters, after all), he/she is evil because he/she wants to take over the cosmos.

Come to think of it, we don't even have any definitive proof that the Three Fiends are representatives of three different fiendish races. They could be all demons, all devils, or all daemodans, or none of the above. All we know about them for sure is that they hang out in the Abyss (because Sabine is with them, and she's a demon).

hamishspence

2013-07-03, 09:52 AM

The term used in OoTS is daemon. In the context of D&D, it's a term that has tended to be replaced by "yugoloth" in later editions. They are native to Hades and Gehenna.

Demodands are something else- native to Tartarus.

As to Sabine's presence, it doesn't really say anything about what plane they're on, since the IFCC is supposed to bridge boundaries between the fiendish groups.

They are telling V "Welcome to Hell" - and in a previous strip, they went to the home plane of Lee (the devil of the group- yellow-eyed)- to watch the plasma screen.

Given that the decor matches- this suggests it's the same location.

KillianHawkeye

2013-07-03, 10:37 AM

also, on an unrelated and mostly joking note, V's soul went to the abyss, you woulda thought he would have had X eyes

No, because his soul was removed from his body without killing him.

Madfellow

2013-07-03, 10:46 AM

They are telling V "Welcome to Hell" - and in a previous strip, they went to the home plane of Lee (the devil of the group- yellow-eyed)- to watch the plasma screen.

1) Hell doesn't exist in the Cosmic Wheel. The lower planes are the Abyss, Hades, and the Nine Hells. We know that Hel exists in the OOTS-verse, but that's different. Yellow Fiend's comment was likely just a figure of speech. It's true they could be in one of the Nine Hells, but it's equally likely they could be in any other lower plane.

2) We know the Three Fiends' names, but we don't know which name belongs to which fiend, nor do we know which fiend is the devil, which is the demon, or which is the daemon. As I said before, we don't even know for sure that they are a demon, devil, and daemon.

Adamo Veritas

2013-07-03, 10:46 AM

I like to think the IFCC's explanation is a way for the Giant to fill in the readers on how the soul possession works. I take it at face value.

Zherog

2013-07-03, 01:15 PM

2) We know the Three Fiends' names, but we don't know which name belongs to which fiend, nor do we know which fiend is the devil, which is the demon, or which is the daemon. As I said before, we don't even know for sure that they are a demon, devil, and daemon.

Yes, we do know all of that. It's in the commentary of one of the books.

konradknox

2013-07-03, 02:13 PM

The names of the Fiends are a clue, in their names' first letter.

Director Lee is Lawful
Director Nero is Neutral
Director Cedrik is Chaotic.

Now, as for which one is which, we do have some hints:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html

In this strip Qarr collects 3 business cards.
The Fiends are facing him in this order: Yellow, Orange, Purple.
If we assume that Qarr took each card in order of their standing, then we see that Lee's card is in the bottom, Nero's in the middle, and Cedrik's on top.

This implies Yellow is Lee, Orange is Nero, Purple is Cedrik.

Let's seek some more confirmations of that theory.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html

In this strip, panel 6, the Orange fiend refers to the Yellow fiend by name Lee.
So far, in confirmation.

Yellow Fiend = Lee. Fact.

So, coming back to the business cards matter, since we know Lee is Yellow, and we know Orange fiend's card was in the middle and he was standing in the middle, we can conclude Orange is Nero.

Gift Jeraff

2013-07-03, 02:26 PM

Book 4 commentary says

Yellow = Lee
Purple = Nero
Orange = Cedrick

And their races are what their names imply (LEe = devil, etc.), but don't put too much thought into who is who. Rich is mostly trying to get all 3 to talk in a single panel, and each speech balloon just goes to who is closest.

However, we do have examples of devils outright lying:

-Qarr says no when Blackwing first accuses him of working for the 3 archfiends.

-Lee is the one who first brings up the alternative plan which wouldn't have worked due to them lying about Durkon's continued presence in the fleet (and Resurrection's casting time, though that was more of an implicit lie)

factotum

2013-07-03, 03:08 PM

-Lee is the one who first brings up the alternative plan which wouldn't have worked due to them lying about Durkon's continued presence in the fleet (and Resurrection's casting time, though that was more of an implicit lie)

Both those are lies by omission (e.g. not telling a piece of truth that contradicts your main position), which I said was fine. I admit I'd forgotten about Qarr's lie, though, which pretty much torpedoes my position on its own!

Fish

2013-07-03, 03:38 PM

What happens if a wandering soul happens by and finds an empty body?

Like, say, an epic necromancer's ghost? They are "independent contractors."

Madfellow

2013-07-03, 03:45 PM

karkus

2013-07-03, 04:25 PM

we have no way of knowing which is which.

Nero is Neutral Evil with the purple speech balloons.

Kish

2013-07-03, 04:29 PM

What happens if a wandering soul happens by and finds an empty body?

Like, say, an epic necromancer's ghost? They are "independent contractors."

Speaking of which, why haven't any of the Draketooth clan lingered as ghosts? I mean, they do still have unfinished business (guarding the gate). For that matter, if Girard's an epic sorcerer, why not build a magical trap to instantly Raise a clan member upon death?
Rich said that Girard did not have Epic Spellcasting. Possibly a Wish could do what you're suggesting; you'd need to give more details.

Nero is Neutral Evil with the purple speech balloons.
Lee is Lawful Evil and yellow; Cedric is Chaotic Evil and orange. This is confirmed in the print material--as Gift Jeraff already stated.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-03, 05:29 PM

1) Hell doesn't exist in the Cosmic Wheel. The lower planes are the Abyss, Hades, and the Nine Hells. We know that Hel exists in the OOTS-verse, but that's different. Yellow Fiend's comment was likely just a figure of speech. It's true they could be in one of the Nine Hells, but it's equally likely they could be in any other lower plane.

Call it what you want, but The Nine Hells, Baator, The Nine Hells of Baator and Hell are all the same thing in the D&D cosmology: the home of Asmodeus and his fallen Celestial/Angel brethren, the Devils. In Second Edition, with TSR management's insistence that the game designers not use the terms "devil" or "hell" (or "daemon" or "demon") to appease the Religious Fundamentalists outraged at the game, the devils became Ba'atezu (and Italian word that essentially means "Devil") and the Nine Hells became Ba'ator. WotC is much less bothered by those problems, and decided to bring back the old names but use the new ones as well.

tl;dr Director Lee's swinging bachelor pad is in the lowest layer of the Great Wheel's version of Hell. Arguing otherwise is just semantics.

KillianHawkeye

2013-07-03, 07:42 PM

Call it what you want, but The Nine Hells, Baator, The Nine Hells of Baator and Hell are all the same thing in the D&D cosmology: the home of Asmodeus and his fallen Celestial/Angel brethren, the Devils. In Second Edition, with TSR management's insistence that the game designers not use the terms "devil" or "hell" (or "daemon" or "demon") to appease the Religious Fundamentalists outraged at the game, the devils became Ba'atezu (and Italian word that essentially means "Devil") and the Nine Hells became Ba'ator. WotC is much less bothered by those problems, and decided to bring back the old names but use the new ones as well.

tl;dr Director Lee's swinging bachelor pad is in the lowest layer of the Great Wheel's version of Hell. Arguing otherwise is just semantics.

While I agree with you about the nomenclature, I have to ask if there's any actual evidence about WHICH layer of Hell they are on? Lots of people are saying they're on Nessus, but I don't remember seeing any mention of that in the comic. There is more than one fiery layer on Ba'ator, after all.

I would think they'd be closer to the surface as that would be helpful in allowing fiends of other varieties to access their location.

Bulldog Psion

2013-07-03, 07:46 PM

Rich said that Girard did not have Epic Spellcasting. Possibly a Wish could do what you're suggesting; you'd need to give more details.

Wait -- what???? :smalleek:

Here I thought all the Order of the Scribble were epic.

KillianHawkeye

2013-07-03, 08:03 PM

Wait -- what???? :smalleek:

Here I thought all the Order of the Scribble were epic.

You can certainly still be epic without taking the Epic Spellcasting feat.

AgentofHellfire

2013-07-03, 08:05 PM

Wait -- what???? :smalleek:

Here I thought all the Order of the Scribble were epic.

Being epic doesn't necessarily mean you can cast epic spells. Especially if you're multiclass.

Kish

2013-07-03, 08:15 PM

Wait -- what???? :smalleek:

Here I thought all the Order of the Scribble were epic.
All the Order of the Scribble were low-epic.

Epic Spellcasting was Dorukan's schtick; Girard wasn't into that book-learning. The time Dorukan spent inventing Cloister, Girard spent setting up his dynasty and their labyrinth.

And the rune spell that made Roy think he'd killed Xykon was a ninth-level spell.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-03, 08:46 PM

While I agree with you about the nomenclature, I have to ask if there's any actual evidence about WHICH layer of Hell they are on? Lots of people are saying they're on Nessus, but I don't remember seeing any mention of that in the comic. There is more than one fiery layer on Ba'ator, after all.

I would think they'd be closer to the surface as that would be helpful in allowing fiends of other varieties to access their location.

Nessus isn't really fiery; its dark and oppressive. (Dark as in there is no visible light, except for Asmodeus' eyes reflected off of his Ruby Rod.)

Theoretically Director Lee's HQ could be on any layer of Hell, provided he overrides the normal features of the layer. Of course that would make his heating bill in Cania astronomical! :smallbiggrin:

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-03, 08:49 PM

All the Order of the Scribble were low-epic.

Epic Spellcasting was Dorukan's schtick; Girard wasn't into that book-learning. The time Dorukan spent inventing Cloister, Girard spent setting up his dynasty and their labyrinth.

And the rune spell that made Roy think he'd killed Xykon was a ninth-level spell.

The Giant has posted comments clarifying Girard's abilities. Girard did not take the Epic Spellcasting feat, which is needed to learn Epic Spells. The runes were based on an Arcane version of the 9th level microcosm Psionic Power, which was house-ruled by the Giant to make it escapable.

Bulldog Psion

2013-07-03, 10:06 PM

While I agree with you about the nomenclature, I have to ask if there's any actual evidence about WHICH layer of Hell they are on? Lots of people are saying they're on Nessus, but I don't remember seeing any mention of that in the comic. There is more than one fiery layer on Ba'ator, after all.

I would think they'd be closer to the surface as that would be helpful in allowing fiends of other varieties to access their location.

It was assumed to be Nessus because in the "soul suck" frame, you can count eight layers above it. Nessus is the ninth and "deepest."

David Argall

2013-07-03, 11:02 PM

Devils, as a rule, don't outright lie--they may distort the truth or lie by omission, but they won't tell you something that is out-and-out false, or break the terms of a contract you have with them. Therefore I think what's said in the strip is what will happen.

That is, as a Rule. The three of them have been caught in at least one outright lie. So while we can trust the fiends for the most part, we can not just assume any statement they make is the truth. Any future statement of theirs could be false in any or all degrees. [We should be able to fully trust statements made to V during contract bargaining since any lie might void the contract. But for the rest, keep a grain of salt handy.]

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 08:37 AM

That is, as a Rule. The three of them have been caught in at least one outright lie. So while we can trust the fiends for the most part, we can not just assume any statement they make is the truth. Any future statement of theirs could be false in any or all degrees. [We should be able to fully trust statements made to V during contract bargaining since any lie might void the contract. But for the rest, keep a grain of salt handy.]

There are many ways to deceive someone without outright lying to them. You can withhold vital information, allow someone to assume something that isn't true and not correct them, use words that have multiple definitions, use semantics and and say things that can only be considered true from "a certain point of view". The IFCC directors have been manipulating and deceiving V from day one, but you can probably count the number of outright lies they've told her on one hand. That's why they're such magnificent villains. Not even Tarquin can avoid relying on so few outright lies to keep his schemes going.

That being said, I feel that any information we learn from the IFCC when they are speaking among themselves and Qarr should be treated as the truth. They're a team, so any exposition we hear in those periods is meant to show us a hint of what their long term scheme is.

hamishspence

2013-07-04, 08:42 AM

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 08:45 AM

It was assumed to be Nessus because in the "soul suck" frame, you can count eight layers above it. Nessus is the ninth and "deepest."

Also Nessus is the home of the most powerful Devils: Asmodeus rules it directly, and the Dark Eight, the eight most powerful Pit Fiends who oversee the Blood War, have their headquarters there. Assuming that Director Lee is an important high-up in the Infernal hierarchy, he would naturally call Nessus his "kip".

Madfellow

2013-07-04, 09:23 AM

It makes for a reasonable "short name"

"Celestia" can be short for "The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia".

So similar principles might apply for OOTS versions of D&D planes.

So the Nine Hells of Baator would become The Hells, or Baator, but not Hell. They are nine distinct demiplanes combined into one, with a plural name. It's like how the United States of America is abbreviated to The States, or America, not The State.

rgrekejin

2013-07-04, 09:31 AM

Nessus isn't really fiery; its dark and oppressive. (Dark as in there is no visible light, except for Asmodeus' eyes reflected off of his Ruby Rod.)

Theoretically Director Lee's HQ could be on any layer of Hell, provided he overrides the normal features of the layer. Of course that would make his heating bill in Cania astronomical! :smallbiggrin:

Not if he's in the part where Mephistopheles has been experimenting with Hellfire!

So the Nine Hells of Baator would become The Hells, or Baator, but not Hell. They are nine distinct demiplanes combined into one, with a plural name. It's like how the United States of America is abbreviated to The States, or America, not The State.

Well, my copy of the Fiendish Codex II frequently refers to it as simply "Hell", so I'd say the primary sources disagree with you on this one.

Madfellow

2013-07-04, 10:00 AM

Well, my copy of the Fiendish Codex II frequently refers to it as simply "Hell", so I'd say the primary sources disagree with you on this one.

Well alright, then. I defer to the sourcebooks.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 01:33 PM

So the Nine Hells of Baator would become The Hells, or Baator, but not Hell. They are nine distinct demiplanes combined into one, with a plural name. It's like how the United States of America is abbreviated to The States, or America, not The State.

No it isn't. Hell (aka The Nine Hells, The Nine Hells of Baator and plain old Baator) is a single infinite plane with nine infinite layers. This is textbook D&D Cosmology. I recommend looking up the Third Edition Fiendish Codex II and Manual of the Planes, the Planescape boxed set Planes of Law, the AD&D Monster Manual and Manual of the Planes and the "Dragon Magazine" articles written by Ed Greenwood on the "Nine Hells" for more information. Here's a link to some bare bones details (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baator) on the nature of the D&D version of the Nine Hells.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 01:39 PM

Not if he's in the part where Mephistopheles has been experimenting with Hellfire!

The IFCC don't have the funding to rent office space in Mephistar! No, Director Lee probably rents a small villa in the side of a bottomless ravine a few blocks away from Asmodeus' citadel, Malsheem. Much cheaper rent, and the cost of maintaining those fires are a pittance compared to how much he'd need to spend in Cania! :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye

2013-07-04, 02:24 PM

It was assumed to be Nessus because in the "soul suck" frame, you can count eight layers above it. Nessus is the ninth and "deepest."

Ah, nice catch. I totally missed that.

rgrekejin

2013-07-04, 03:01 PM

The IFCC don't have the funding to rent office space in Mephistar! No, Director Lee probably rents a small villa in the side of a bottomless ravine a few blocks away from Asmodeus' citadel, Malsheem. Much cheaper rent, and the cost of maintaining those fires are a pittance compared to how much he'd need to spend in Cania! :smalltongue:

Perhaps Malbolge? It's reasonably temperate, and it seems to me that a newfangled idea like the IFCC would be more likely to gain support from one of Hell's newcomers. They could be a pet project of Glasya's. A relative upstart, she'd be in need of some credibility, and open to new ideas?

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 03:07 PM

Perhaps Malbolge? It's reasonably temperate, and it seems to me that a newfangled idea like the IFCC would be more likely to gain support from one of Hell's newcomers. They could be a pet project of Glasya's. A relative upstart, she'd be in need of some credibility, and open to new ideas?

But then Lee would need to live in Glasya's palace; there's no place else in Malboge. Plus the place smells of dead Hag Countess, and who wants that? :smallamused:

rgrekejin

2013-07-04, 03:43 PM

But then Lee would need to live in Glasya's palace; there's no place else in Malboge. Plus the place smells of dead Hag Countess, and who wants that? :smallamused:

I dunno, but it just seems to me that Asmodeus has a little too much invested in this whole "Blood War" thing at this point to be willing to host a demon on Nessus, although that inscrutable so-and-so is always playing the long game, so what do I know? Dis, perhaps?

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 04:08 PM

I dunno, but it just seems to me that Asmodeus has a little too much invested in this whole "Blood War" thing at this point to be willing to host a demon on Nessus, although that inscrutable so-and-so is always playing the long game, so what do I know? Dis, perhaps?

Dis is very overcrowded. Plus the rent is too damn high! :smallbiggrin:

rgrekejin

2013-07-04, 05:19 PM

Dis is very overcrowded. Plus the rent is too damn high! :smallbiggrin:

Well darn, I'm running out of ideas for where we can put this bloody place. Maybe Avernus? It's not the nicest neighborhood, but it'd certainly help with the commute.

veti

2013-07-04, 05:39 PM

Devils, as a rule, don't outright lie--they may distort the truth or lie by omission, but they won't tell you something that is out-and-out false, or break the terms of a contract you have with them. Therefore I think what's said in the strip is what will happen.

The devil (yellow lettering) doesn't say that won't happen. What he says is:
"That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul into it would be a gross violation of our contract."

Nowhere does he add "... And we'd never do that."

And he's the Lawful one. The other two, particularly Cedrick, are unlikely to give two hoots about violating a contract.

That's not a denial, it's classic weasel-wording. If Vaarsuvius is fully alert, when she thinks back on the encounter, she'll realise that.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 05:57 PM

Well darn, I'm running out of ideas for where we can put this bloody place. Maybe Avernus? It's not the nicest neighborhood, but it'd certainly help with the commute.

That might explain how Tiamat had his phone number. :smallbiggrin:

rgrekejin

2013-07-04, 06:57 PM

That might explain how Tiamat had his phone number. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I think that might be a point against, rather than a point for. If they were on Avernus, I wouldn't expect Tiamat to call, I'd expect her to come busting in through the wall Kool-Aid Man style. Phlegethos, perhaps? It seems appropriately firey, without being too over-bearing.

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-04, 07:33 PM

Actually, I think that might be a point against, rather than a point for. If they were on Avernus, I wouldn't expect Tiamat to call, I'd expect her to come busting in through the wall Kool-Aid Man style. Phlegethos, perhaps? It seems appropriately firey, without being too over-bearing.

rgrekejin, you don't mind if I try getting someone to make Tiamat as the Kool-Aid Man my new avatar, do you? :smallbiggrin: