Rogue/Spellthief worth it?

[G.Cube]

Would it be worth going into Rogue for a while as a Spellthief to gain some extra sneak attack dice? Keep in mind the group I play with is a fairly mild op group.
Come to think of it, I just looked Spellthief over, and it wasn't clear to me, can a Spellthief with multiple SA dice steal multiple spell in a single SA if he gives up multiple SA dice? I didn't see anything that would imply that they couldn't.

[Fouredged Sword]

Generally spellthief is something you ether want all of, or one level of.

Consider spellthief 20. It is about stealing buffs and spells, and generaly making the spellcasters feel the hurt. They borrow personal buffs from their allies and cut the tops of enemy spellcasters who loose their tops spells.

Then consider spellthief 5 / Chameleon 10 / Spellthief 5. It is about being a spellcasting skill monkey with access to tons of low level spells, casting in light armor, and just about anything you could want.

Rogue doesn't make for a good mix, as it doesn't grant what spellthieves want. 2d6 sneak attack can be gained with 2 feats, and followed by dex to damage with a third.

[G.Cube]

Generally spellthief is something you ether want all of, or one level of.

Consider spellthief 20. It is about stealing buffs and spells, and generaly making the spellcasters feel the hurt. They borrow personal buffs from their allies and cut the tops of enemy spellcasters who loose their tops spells.

Then consider spellthief 5 / Chameleon 10 / Spellthief 5. It is about being a spellcasting skill monkey with access to tons of low level spells, casting in light armor, and just about anything you could want.

Rogue doesn't make for a good mix, as it doesn't grant what spellthieves want. 2d6 sneak attack can be gained with 2 feats, and followed by dex to damage with a third.

Thanks for this great post! Could you elaborate a little on why Rogue wouldn't work well though? My thought behind it was Rogues higher SA dice progression, more SA dice means more spells stolen, right?

Also, could you site those feats for me?

[Diarmuid]

It's the general consensus that you can only opt to lose 1 die of SA dmg per SA for the purpose of stealing spells.

The wording is certainly vague enough that I could see an interpretation thinking you could give up as many dice as you have to pull spells, but I certainly wouldnt let that fly at my table.

Even if you could pull multiple spells per SA, the rogue levels dont let you actually do anything with the spells. Removing the spells from the bad guy is certainly a bad thing, but being able to store them up and throw them back at the bad guys is even better. The amount of spells you can store is solely determined by your Spellthief level. Some DM's allow the Master Spellthief feat to also raise this limit, but it's not RAW.

[nedz]

These are fairly obvious builds.
Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 10
Spellthief 1/ Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10
with Master Spellthief at level 6.
At level 15: 5d6 sneak, 14 levels of casting and the ability to steal 7th level spells.
Bard or Sorcerer can work also.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, well rogue gets 1SA per 2 levels. So a three level dip will grant 2SA. Your Spellthief abilities scale with spellthief levels, so unless you are gaining something very good, you don't want to drop any.

As for the feats.

In tome of battle (book of nine swords) there are three feats.

Martial study is a prereq feat. Take any shadow hand strike that lacks a prereq. You will then be able to use it once per encounter.

Martial stance is a feat that grants access to a stance. Stances provide the listed bonus for as long as you want, but you can only benefit from one at a time. Assassin's stance grants +2d6 sneak attack.

Shadow blade grants dex to damage while in a shadow hand stance and wielding a shadow hand weapon. Shadow hand weapons are mostly good weapons and dex to damage is nice.

Now at level 12 or so you can pick up martial stance and have the ability to take assassin's stance.

So, to clarify, Two feats can be used to gain 2d6 sneak attack. Alternatively, a single level dip in swordsage can get the same benefit.

So, to clarify, there are better options than a 3 level rogue dip.

[Talionis]

Thanks for this great post! Could you elaborate a little on why Rogue wouldn't work well though? My thought behind it was Rogues higher SA dice progression, more SA dice means more spells stolen, right?

Also, could you site those feats for me?

Rogue doesn't advance casting.

I could really stop there, but since Spellthief by itself only gets 4th level spells generally you don't want to lose levels of casting. One of the best feats for Spellthieves is Master Spellthief that increases caster level if you take levels of a different caster. The feat does a lot to improve Spellthief, but it doesn't add anything with Rogue levels. Depending on your interpretation of the feat you also can only hold spells to recast up to the number of levels you have in Spellthief. Thus your limit on number of spell levels you can hold is the most limiting thing for a Spellthief.

Rogue doesn't give you that much. Usually you aren't hurting for Sneak Attack dice and the Tome of Battle, Shadow Hand at initiator level 3 stance that grants two levels of Sneak Attack dice helps more with less dip.

Another huge feat that you may want as a Spellthief is God's Blood Spelltheft put on the internet by Wizards here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606 This will give you some higher level spells to cast when you steal higher level spells.

Last don't forget that there are Prestige Classes that advance both casting and Sneak Attack: Arcane Trickster in DM1. Unseen Seer in Complete Mage or Complete Arcane or Complete Scoundrel. Master of Masks can do this but you lose a good bit of your casting (Complete Scoundrel). You should be able to find some guides if you search for Sneak Attack, casters, etc. Another trick to get more Sneak Attack is to dip the Prestige Classes just enough to pick up the first levels of Sneak Attack and then dip into something else. Sneak Attack is usually a first level ability so you don't have to dip much to get the benefit.

Spellthief already does most of the things that Rogue does pretty well. But you will dilute your Spellthief abilities by taking non-arcane caster levels more so than most casters simply because the casting that Spellthief has is already mediocre compared to real casters.

[Person_Man]

My answer to your original question is no.

My reasoning is this: Sneak Attack is not a great source of bonus damage. 1d6 = +3.5 average damage, typically every other level (though as you know you can stack a few extra dice in here and there). That's not very much compared to many other sources of bonus damage. Plus lots of common enemies are immune. And bonus damage dice are not multiplied (unlike static bonuses like Power Attack, which are).

So if your goal is damage dealing, I would suggest any full BAB class with a standard Power Attack combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087), or Totemist, Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, or even Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), or any Tier 1-2 caster build (you can get a ton of damage via a variety of spells, or via stacking buffs).

The RAW Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) is very poorly written, in that you don't get the Discover Spells ability (which is basically required for the Steal Spell effect to be really useful) until 13th level, and many of its other abilities scale very poorly.

[G.Cube]

I get it now. You guys have all been incredibly helpful, thanks for the crystal clear layouts and full explanations! Just in case we get anymore posters, I wasn't looking for extra damage dealing, only more spells being stolen per SA, which I now know is unclear by RAW itself.

You guys are great!