Maneuver prerequisites

[Andezzar]

Some maneuvers have prerequisites in addition the minimum initiator level (MIL). Are those distinct properties or is the MIL included in the property called prerequisites?

[Diarmuid]

Some maneuvers have prerequisites in addition the minimum initiator level (MIL). Are those distinct properties or is the MIL included in the property called prerequisites?

There is a table before the list of Manuevers that lists MIL for the Maneuver levels. This is the base requirement if none else is listed. If a requirement is listed, it is in addition to the MIL.

[Andezzar]

I know that the other prerequisites (like minimum number of maneuvers, alignment etc.) are in addition to MIL. The question is if the requirements listed under prerequisites also include the MIL even though it is not explicitly listed there.

[Nettlekid]

Yes. You have to have the appropriate IL to learn a maneuver before you should be worrying about the other prereqs. Just because you meet the prereqs of, say, Diamond Nightmare Blade by taking many lower level Diamond Mind maneuvers doesn't mean you can learn it if your IL is lower than 15. Similarly, although Diamond Defense doesn't have any prereqs listed, you still won't be able to learn it if your IL is less than 15.

[mattie_p]

This appears to be a continuation from the RAW Q&A thread, so I will post my responses, as well as quote OMG_PONIES, who addressed this topic earlier.


Prerequisite
In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver...


A 349: (rebuttal)

The fact that the maneuver prerequisite definition mentions class and level indicates that those are, in fact, prerequisites.

If they were not prerequisites, the separate class and level descriptor would be sufficient. This is the same reason why a level 1 fighter does not qualify for any maneuvers via martial study (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15485791).


A 249

No, you cannot take Martial Study for a maneuver until you have reached the appropriate initiator level. To remedy this, we must consult the section of Tome of Battle that defines what exactly a prerequisite is.


In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, you must meet a certain set of requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know.

Since the "certain set of requirements" (usually knowing X number of maneuvers from the same discipline) is in addition to meeting the class and level requirements, you do not meet the prerequisite for your chosen maneuver--you've only fulfilled the "certain set of requirements."

[Andezzar]

For general learning of maneuvers this is true. The question arises, if you look at the White Raven Crown (and derivatives).

After wearing it continually for 24 hours, the wearer must choose one of the White Raven maneuvers that the item can grant for which he meets the prerequisite.
The item does not explicitly require you to have a sufficiently high Initiator Level.

@mattie_p: the text OMG PONIES quoted does not really apply here, because you do not learn a maneuver from using the White Raven Crown. You simply gain the ability to use it.

As I said before the prerequisites are in addition to the MIL so the MIL is not a prerequisite itself even though it might be required to learn the maneuver. Let me illustrate this with an analogue from cooking:

Ingredients: In addition to various tools you need these edible items to prepare the food.

While you will most likely need edible items and tools to prepare food, the tools are not ingredients themselves.

[Humble Master]

As stated above the minimum initiator level requirement is in addition to any other requirements listed in the prerequisites of the maneuver.

Edit: For example we have the 4th level Diamond Mind maneuver Mind Strike. The table for Highest Level Maneuvers known (on page 39 of Tome of Battle) states that you must have a minimum initiator level of 7 to learn any 4th level maneuver. In the text for Mind Strike (on page 64) under prerequisites it states that you must know two Diamond Mind maneuvers.
So, to learn Mind Strike you must have an initiator level of at least 7 and know 2 Diamond Mind maneuvers.

[mattie_p]

As I said before the prerequisites are in addition to the MIL so the MIL is not a prerequisite itself even though it might be required to learn the maneuver. Let me illustrate this with an analogue from cooking:

Ingredients: In addition to various tools you need these edible items to prepare the food.

While you will most likely need edible items and tools to prepare food, the tools are not ingredients themselves.

I find this analogy to be flawed. Let's use the same word and see if it makes sense:


Prerequisites: In addition to various tools you need these edible items to prepare the food.

Makes sense to me.

You need the edible ingredients (or the appropriate number of maneuvers) in addition to the various tools (or the classes and IL) in order to meet the prerequisites for the recipe (or the maneuver you want to use/learn/etc).

When it says you must meet the prerequisites, that includes everything that is a prerequisite.

[Nettlekid]

Or, to state it without the need of analogies, you need a sufficient IL in order to learn maneuvers of a certain level. And then some maneuvers may have additional prereqs, such as other maneuvers known or alignment. But you need that IL. Which means that if you're using a Crown of the White Raven or other ToB item to learn maneuvers, your level must be 2*(maneuver's level*2-1) in order to learn it (assuming you have no actual initiator levels.)

[Andezzar]

That is all true for learning a maneuver, but you do not learn a maneuver from wearing a White Raven Crown. You choose a maneuver for which you meet the prerequisite and gain the benefit of it.

As I see it for learning a maneuver you need to fulfill the MIL and the prerequisites (if any are listed). If none are listed you only need to fulfil the MIL.

Going back to the White Raven Crown, the item can grant any maneuver of sufficiently low level. A user can choose any maneuver for which he meets the prerequisite. Nowhere does it say that the MIL is included in the Prerequisite: line.

To use some math speak: Both MIL and Prerequisite: are necessary conditions but only the MIL can be a sufficient one (on maneuvers without a Prerequisite: line) for learning the maneuver.

The White Raven crown however does not say you learn a maneuver, but that you gain the benefit of that maneuver. It requires three things as necessary conditions to benefit from the maneuver: wear the item 24h, choose a maneuver, meet the prerequisite. So MIL is never checked.

If the White Raven Crown actually let you learn maneuvers, you would keep them even if you removed the item, since there is no explicit rule that you unlearn the maneuver from the item.