Vow Of Poverty Warlock

[TheifofZ]

Recently my DM made a slight wager with me, that I couldn't finish a campaign with an Exalted Vow of Poverty based character.
I decided to accept, and am now in the process of making an Aasimar Warlock, but could use alittle advice on how to build it.
The party starts at level 2, and I do plan on buying out my level adjustment at character level 3 (that is, total level 4).

[Flickerdart]

All the good Warlock stuff is evil, sadly (Mortalbane, Hellfire). Your best bet is probably Glaivelock or Clawlock. Does your DM allow Dragon material?

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you want to win the wager, I would suggest staying away from Warlock, sure they have all kind of nifty abilities at will; but some of their best class features (Decisive/imbue Item) require magic items. I would suggest going with either a druid or a Totemist (maybe Incarnate; but they are slightly weaker than totemists IMO).

Having said that if you are hellbent on Warlock, going with a small race (hengeyoukai sparrow is extremely good) and peppering with Eldrithch blasts from afar is an option, however without Hellfire warlock, your damage output will be extremely bad (the other Eldritch blast buffs are either magic items (chausable/warlock rod) or evil (mortal bane). Another option might be going melee with Eldritch Claws if Dragon content is allowed.

[GeekGirl]

I tried t play a VoP warlock once, it was terrible. A big portion of your class is UMD, which you can't really do since you can't own magic items. I would recommend re-evaluating your class choose before you commit.

I'm don't mean to say it can't be done, but I hated playing it. After 2-3 sessions I re-rolled a warlock without VoP. I played as utility character it was just hard with BVoP

Glaivelock may not be a bad build with it. but your kind of limited.

[nedz]

I'd probably go Half Fey rather than Aasimar, the SLAs add more breadth and you don't need to spend an invocation on flight.

[Big Fau]

Seconding the Totemist suggestion. You are going to have a very hard time as a Warlock, and while it won't be much easier as a Totemist, it will be easier if you are a meldshaper.

[TheifofZ]

I guess I can ask him how he feels about Incarnum, or a hengeyoukai, as well as the dragon material.

Honestly, my first thought was to go with a Totemist, but I haven't had a chance to ask him if I can run one.
Would still have to change my character concept alittle, but it wouldn't be too difficult.

[Diarmuid]

I'm a complete Incarnum novice.

Does "binding" things to your item slots interact in any way with the whole VoP thing?

[Big Fau]

I'm a complete Incarnum novice.

Does "binding" things to your item slots interact in any way with the whole VoP thing?

Other than bonus stacking issues, shaping and binding soulmelds does not negate VoP's benefits (as they aren't real items, they are class features that mimic the effects of items).

The only ones that would cause issue would be the soulmelds with the [Evil] tag, and possibly the Incarnate Weapon soulmeld (as the DM may rule it as an actual item, and none of the Incarnate Weapon forms are VoP-compliant).

[Flickerdart]

They don't even mimic the effects of items, they just correspond to item slots.

[nedz]

You could try a DFA — they're similar to Warlocks — but really you should be looking at a caster.

[AmberVael]

All the good Warlock stuff is evil, sadly (Mortalbane, Hellfire). Your best bet is probably Glaivelock or Clawlock. Does your DM allow Dragon material?

This is incorrect. Hellfire Warlock has no alignment requirements or restrictions. Indeed, one of the knowledge checks for the class indicates that it is entirely possible for it to be used by good for good.


As for other classes- Incarnum does work okay with vow of poverty (or more accurately, using vow of poverty makes using incarnum a lot simpler), but really I'd say a spellcaster is your best bet. Druid works nicely.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know that it is just fluff; but I find really hard to see how an exalted character would be ok with paying a Lord of the Nine for power....

[StreamOfTheSky]

Druid, Sorcerer, and Totemist work.

An inspire courage optimized bard w/ words of creation and dragonfire inspiration can do just fine w/ VoP.

If starting at mid levels (ie, can start already in PrC), you could actually make a serviceable dagger thrower using Master Thrower, with Swordsage-based entry to use Shadow Blade (and take other feats and class features like the Drow of the Underdark's Fighter to add dex to damage some more).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know VoP characters can use simple weapons; but wouldn't carrying loads of them (as master thrower would have) break the vow?

[Karnith]

I know VoP characters can use simple weapons; but wouldn't carrying loads of them (as master thrower would have) break the vow?
Strictly, no, but it certainly goes against the intent.

To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf--you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.
(Emphasis mine)

There is no limit to how many ordinary simple weapons you can carry/use, so you can have as many as you want.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh right, for some reason I thought you were restricted to one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Druid, Sorcerer, and Totemist work.

An inspire courage optimized bard w/ words of creation and dragonfire inspiration can do just fine w/ VoP.
This. ToB doesn't hurt you for numbers as much as it hurts you for options. The more of those options (necessities, really, like flight) you can cover through your class, the better off you are. Practically, this means that the higher the tier, the better.

Druid and Totemist probably work the best because their main class features (Wild Shape and Soulbinding) actively conflict with the standard magic item system. Incarnate has the same issue, but they also have very strong UMD options that you lose through VoP.

[Waker]

A fairly effective build would be Incarnate or Totemist mixed with Sorcerer or Sha'ir and then eventually into Soulcaster. The meldshaping would provide access to long-term buffs like Flight or Armor as well as boosting the arcanists rather unimpressive skill list, while the arcanist would have access to spells with a bit of oomph to them. In either case, you would need to focus on Constitution and Charisma.

[Psyren]

All the good Warlock stuff is evil, sadly (Mortalbane, Hellfire). Your best bet is probably Glaivelock or Clawlock. Does your DM allow Dragon material?

1) Amusingly, Hellfire doesn't actually require you to be evil.

2) You could always multiclass Sha'ir and go for a Cha-based ET + ED for 9s and Darks, all while being Chaotic Good. For fluff, say you were descended from a Jinn or Marid.

[Waker]

1)
2) You could always multiclass Sha'ir and go for a Cha-based ET + ED for 9s and Darks, all while being Chaotic Good. For fluff, say you were descended from a Jinn or Marid.

You need Turn/Rebuke in order to take Eldritch Disciple, so you would need to dip Cleric or Sacred Exorcist.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Strictly, no, but it certainly goes against the intent.

Does it? Really?

Pop quiz!
VoP guy A has the nerve to buy 25 - TWENTY FIVE! - daggers, the cheeky bastard.
VoP guy B simply buys a single heavy crossbow and a few quivers of bolts.

Which guy is causing more orphans to starve by being greedy?

You know what, maybe that's not fair. Maybe the heavy crossbow is too lavish. Let's say guy B buys a light crossbow instead.

Flash forward many adventures later. Guy B has run through 30 quivers of bolts (they only come 10 per quiver, totally not fair!) from his many conflicts. Guy A still has those daggers he started with. Who is the heartless monster that'd rather pamper himself to excess while the downtrodden masses beg for scraps?

I'm not sure what I love more, math or sarcasm. :smallbiggrin:

[Karnith]

Does it? Really?
Yes, because VoP says this:
You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick.(Emphasis mine)

[Psyren]

You need Turn/Rebuke in order to take Eldritch Disciple, so you would need to dip Cleric or Sacred Exorcist.

Not necessarily - the adaptation (CM pg. 56) lets you drop the TU requirement and fuel your gifts with something else. Not that a SE dip would be that painful anyway of course.

[ArcturusV]

I suppose the thing to watch out for with Druids (And Clerics) with Vow of Poverty is that the Vow doesn't actually make allowances for your Divine Focuses (Holy Symbol or a Sprig of Holly). Without which you're really hurting for casting your spells as it seems like most of them do require your Divine Focus.

That's not the intent, I'm sure. And most DMs would probably be fine with you making an exception or looking at the intent of keeping a Spell Component Pouch to provide for equivalent Divine Foci. But since this is a Challenge situation he might try to pull that one out on you... Which is kinda silly thinking that you could be that guy with 25 daggers, or 50 spears, but can't carry a simple holy symbol to channel the powers of Good that you're trying to emulate.

Course as a Druid you can still end up transforming and rolling out. Then maybe taking levels in PrCs like Shapechanger and Warshaper, since you might end up having trouble casting anyway. But until you hit that level 5 it will probably hurt to basically just be a less effective Fighter along with your Fighter Pet.

[nedz]

Not necessarily - the adaptation (CM pg. 56) lets you drop the TU requirement and fuel your gifts with something else. Not that a SE dip would be that painful anyway of course.

Spirit Shaman's Chastise Spirits is an obvious contender since it's very similar to the Channelling variant of TU.

The trouble with the SE dip is that it delays entry, YMMV.

[Crasical]

Does it? Really?


Strictly, no, but it certainly goes against the intent.

Clubs are A) Free, B) Unarguably 'ordinary, simple weapons', C) Can be thrown.

Problem solved.

[Drachasor]

Isn't VoP best done with a Druid? Seems like a Full Caster of some sort would best be able to leverage not having magical items.


Clubs are A) Free, B) Unarguably 'ordinary, simple weapons', C) Can be thrown.

Problem solved.

Agreed. It's ridiculous to propose a VoP person can't have what amounts to little more than a pile of sticks.

RAW and RAI, you are certainly allowed personal possession liked daggers and the like. It's expected even. Heck, some stuff you need just to be able to make and prepare food.

[Rainbownaga]

Or for a lower tier character, a psychic warrior focusing on natural weapons could probably go alright.

[nedz]

DFA might work

[Blightedmarsh]

Pathfinder soul blade.

With the right archetypes, blade skills and feats you get your spell casting, armour shield, weapon of almost any type without items.

[Telonius]

If your race is Changeling, you might adapt my Mage Slayer Warlock build.

Changeling Warlock12/Mindbender1/Totemist4/Warshaper3.

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Mage Slayer, Eldritch Claws, Combat Reflexes, Mindsight, Blend Into Shadows. (You can switch out Blindsight, Combat Reflexes, or Blend Into Shadows for other feats if necessary; they're nice abilities, but not absolutely essential to the build)

Since you don't have to worry about Imbue Item at 12, you can switch out another Warlock level for something else if it's useful.

[Spuddles]

I suppose the thing to watch out for with Druids (And Clerics) with Vow of Poverty is that the Vow doesn't actually make allowances for your Divine Focuses (Holy Symbol or a Sprig of Holly). Without which you're really hurting for casting your spells as it seems like most of them do require your Divine Focus.

That's not the intent, I'm sure. And most DMs would probably be fine with you making an exception or looking at the intent of keeping a Spell Component Pouch to provide for equivalent Divine Foci. But since this is a Challenge situation he might try to pull that one out on you... Which is kinda silly thinking that you could be that guy with 25 daggers, or 50 spears, but can't carry a simple holy symbol to channel the powers of Good that you're trying to emulate.

Course as a Druid you can still end up transforming and rolling out. Then maybe taking levels in PrCs like Shapechanger and Warshaper, since you might end up having trouble casting anyway. But until you hit that level 5 it will probably hurt to basically just be a less effective Fighter along with your Fighter Pet.

Doesn't a sprig of holly have a cost of nothing? It's literally a clipping of holly from a holly bush.

[Yogibear41]

Neither MortalBane or Hellfire Warlock Requires you to be evil. While taking them might have an evil feel consider this: Your character being born a Warlock has been innately touched by some evil from an outside realm, however this evil is only apart of you it does not control you. Imagine now if you will that while your abilities are powered by the very essence of evil you walk the righteous path turning the very powers of the dark back upon themselves.

In one of the games I play In, I am currently playing a warlock that this is more or less what is going on with him, Now I have not entred the Hellfire Warlock class, but I have taken mortal bane twice as a feat, and have entered into the enlightened spirit prestige class ( I know its bad lol) I am currently in the process of acuiring the saint template as I combine both the forces of light and dark in my battle against evil!

I'm not sure how well being innatenly touched by the dark would work with an aasimar and all though, might want to consider another race for RP reasons.

[shadow_archmagi]

I guess I can ask him how he feels about Incarnum, or a hengeyoukai, as well as the dragon material.

Honestly, my first thought was to go with a Totemist, but I haven't had a chance to ask him if I can run one.
Would still have to change my character concept alittle, but it wouldn't be too difficult.

I will always vote for Incarnum classes when the thread even vaguely suggests them.

I imagine Factotum could roll pretty well, too. Tome of Battle could work, naturally. I think Tome of Battle going into Master Thrower would be very interesting.

[Talya]

All the good Warlock stuff is evil, sadly (Mortalbane, Hellfire). Your best bet is probably Glaivelock or Clawlock. Does your DM allow Dragon material?

Hellfire Warlock is not evil, actually. it's most often used by warlocks combating the Nine Hells, not serving it.


To the OP:
Since the Warlock is heavily magic item-based, you actually want to multiclass so you're not wasting class features. Definitely take one level of Binder (for Naberius) and three levels of Hellfire Warlock. The half-fey template someone suggested is not a bad idea, either.