Creating a pre-Tolkeinish world, need help

[amanodel]

OK, finally I begin it. I've been planing on this project for some time, but I still could use some help from folks who have knowledge of various myths.
Most notably, arabian, african, oriental, slavic, norse and greco-latin mythology comes to mind, but if you think you know others as well, please feel free to comment. I used wikipedia as my source, so It's not entirely my fault f I'm wrong somewhere.

This is a dual attempt: First, creating a fantasy setting (let's say for d&d), using stuff from myths, ignoring modern, artifical legends. Secondly, trying to make the list of humanoid creatures a bit better, from a different aspect.

First, let's collect the somewhat humanoid creatures from d&d:
Human, (various) elf, half-elf, drow, (various) dwarf, duergar, derro, gnome, halfling, orc, half-orc, goblin, kobold, hobgoblin, bugbear, ogre, (variou) giant, titan, ettin, firbolg, gnoll, (various) lizardfolk, merfolk, troll...
There's also changeling, doppelganger, centaur, grimlock, hag, harpy, medusa, minotaur, sahuagin...
If I left something out, just say so. Quite a list... Now if we concentrate on the mostly humanoid creatures, and dismiss the orc and the halfing (I believe there were no orcs before Tolkein, but I'm maybe wrong), and we add dozens of creatures that never made into d&d, it becomes a large list.

So I intend to do it the other way 'round. Let's see what creatures exist in legends, and try to put them in some kind of order.

First, I take giants. Nearly every culture has legends about humanoid creatures, bigger and stronger than humans. Giants, Titans, Ogres, Cyclopes, the Yeti and the Bigfoot, Jotun, Djinn, Oni...
Generally there's two group of "giants": the intelligent, and the brutal ones. That makes me say: Why do we have to have at least a dozen different kind of giants statted out, when they are similar? After some reading, I figured out that as legends pass between cultures, the names change to fit the language, so many creatures could be of the same mythological origin. Ent - Ettin - Vettir - Jotun - Jeti is a likely example of this. Ent and Ettin was the old Anglsaxon name of the giants, and they learned these legends from scandinavia, where the Vettir, and the Jotun were the giants, and finally there's a theory which uses the finnich culture as the missing gap between scandinavia and tibet. So there's no need to stat out many mosters, these names refer to the same creature in different languages. Titans, Djinns, Fomorians mark a different kind of giant, intelligent creatures who use magic.
At first, I'd make only two giant races: one which is like the current "ogre", and the names troll, ent ettin, vettir, jeti, bigfoot, etc. would only mark their place. Perhaps the Jeti is an "ogre" tribe, living in high mountains without any civilisation, while Vettirs are a kingdom of similar giants but with some culture, and so on. The second race would consist mystical, intelligent giants, I possibly have to make one.

Now let's move to the wee folk. It'll be harder, and first I'm only going to use European legends, I don't know the others at all.
+ There are legends about benvolent forest spirits, some call them fays or faires, others call them elves. They most likely can talk with animals, and wield some kind of nature magic.
+ Also, nearly every culture has it's own malevolent spirits. They can differ in their committedness of evil, from tricksters to kidnappers, but they are similar. Goblins, kobolds fall in this category mainly, but trows (drow), dark elves of norse mythology.
+ There are the gnomes, who master magic and have a vast knowedge.
+ Dwarves are present too.

Now, I made a quick sketch (http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f118/amanodel/sketch.jpg) how I imagine the races of such a world. I'd appreciate any help with throwing new names into the hat, and tell me wether they fit into any category or not.



First, the barbaristic giants: Jeti, Bigfoot ogre... Names to be added later

Second, the mystic giants: Titans, Fomorians, Djinni...

Third, the human. for reference :)

Fourth: the dwarves, gremlin?, dwergar...

Fifth: (fey folk) elf, fey, faerie, brownie...

Sixth: (trickster (malevolent) folk) darkelf, kobold, goblin...

Seventh: gnome...

If you have any ideas, add them.


(ps: I know I'm only being totally absurd agin, so if you think this is an useless piece of crap, just ignore me.)

[TheEscapist]

I like the idea, I'm just a little unclear on what sort of input you're looking for from the rest of us. It seems like you have everything pretty well figured out so far.

[TheThan]

Yeah, I’d like to help, but until I understand what you need help with, I really can’t provide advice or anything. A little more input into what you’re looking for in the way of input would be helpful for us, the people who would provide the input.

[Serakus_DeSardis]

As to the giants issue, theres a small problem with your logic.

The giants of different cultures often carry different traits and roles in the myths. For example an ogre is a commonly known "giant" that is usually very dumb, while a ettin has two heads, and the oni in Japan were demons not giants. This is the reason for the multitude of stats out there. Variety is the spice of life, and it allows one to easily pick up a template or stat block and have exactly what they are looking for. Trimming down the monster blocks to one or two subtypes of each thing means alot more work for the DM, because he has to do his own modifications if he wants a certain flavor.

[bosssmiley]

RuneQuest.

Glorantha, with its Bronze Age cultures, local divine cults, and quasi-mythic worldview, *seems* to be the kind of thing you're looking for. Ignore the sillier-seeming elements (the Ducks and Jackobears are a breaker for some people), and soak up the pre-Tolkien ambiance.

One of the major ways characters gain both power and social status in the game is by emulating the gods through symbolic re-enactment of their great mythic tales; a good worshipper *lives* his god's commandments by acting as his god would.

Issaries.com (http://www.glorantha.com/) is a good starting point.

[belboz]

Something to note about things like elves and dwarfs ("dwarves" is a Tolkien-invented word): While creatures called those things are common in mythology, they're much less similar to humans than Tolkien (and later D&D) made them. You're right to classify elves as fey, if you want the old European concept of "elves;" they're not humanoids (in the D&D sense) at all. Same with goblins, hobgoblins, etc. Norse/Germanic dwarfs has their own plane; they're probably (in D&D terms) rightly thought of as outsiders.

And I second Serakus' point. I don't think you want a huge mishmash of existing myths all in one part of your campaign world. They're just incompatible. Both the Europeans and the Chinese had creatures usually translated as "dragon", but European dragons (dumb nasty dangerous beasts) and Chinese dragons (super-intelligent outsiders with an important role in the Celestial hierarchy) have next-to-nothing in common.

If you want a multicultural world; I'd recommend dividing it up into regions with compatible sorts of creatures; possibly with an ocean or big mountain range between them. And do something about the outer planes; maybe each region should have its own mini-great wheel. And don't be afraid to really muck with types--dividing your "dragons" into magical beasts and outsiders, for example, or your "giants" into any number of other types.

For a wonderful, mythographically reasonably accurate (I think) book on European fey, you might want to see if you can find a copy of "Field Guide to the Little People." An easy read, plenty of little stories that can be easily turned into plot hooks, and critters from pretty much every European culture from Ireland to Russia and Norway to Italy.

[thehothead]

WHAT IS IT WITH PEOPLE AND GETTING THE SAME IDEA'S AS ME! This is the second one of seen today that is very similar to one of mine.

now for my main comments...
I might be wrong about this but I think there are elves fairly similar to Tolkein's in norse mytholigy, as well as the ones where the elf name is derived in less-north european mytholigy that is a fey. The dark elf is from the norse mytholigy, so it would probably be humanoid AND human sized. not quite sure though.
Also it's arguably if dwarves actually had their own PLANE in norse mytholigy, and depends on your own interpretation.

Doesn't really matter for this, but some scientists beleive that the Trolls in norse mytholigy were actually Neadrathels (I spelt that wrong, I know it.)

[StickMan]

I would like to add that almost all cultures have a phoenix, next to dragons it is the most common myth I have seen. It apperise in all corners of the world Africa, Asia, Europe and in Central America/South America.

[amanodel]

@ everyone who'd like to help: I was looking for various legendary races of various cultures. If you are asian, or scandinavian, you probably know oriental or norse legends way better than I do. So if you know norse myths, for example, you could give me some ideas about the most profilic norse creatures, and their basic behaviour/look. What I wrote down in my first post is largely basid on wikipedia, and may not be precise. For example, if you could tell me basic traits of creatures like the norse Huldra, or the irish Leprechaun, and possibly suggest if they could fall in one of my "group" things described below, you'd help me a lot.

Phoenixes and dragons: I try to put the mosters aside for now, and work with creatures with two legs and two arms, first.

Elves: Tolkien elves are based on Norse elves, but there are other elves in other cultures. A few hundred years ago, some cultures described elves as winged tiny forest spirits, while others as human-sized forest dwellers. The name, and their attitude towards the forest is common in nearly every culture, so I'd keep that, and use a size between the two, and get rid of their ocassional wings to make things a bit easier. They could use the fey subtype, sure, but I have a different idea. If I have an elf race, I could always give them [favored class: druid], and say that female druid elves are commonly called dryads, and other people often refer to their race as feys, or faeries. That'd make a bunch of a races into on race, from different aspects.

Goblins: hobgoblins and bugbears are goblins. There are absolutely no need to make them into different races, for example, bugbear could be a famous goblin assassin guild (that'd go well with folklore), while the hobgoblin could be something similar. Also, usually they are not described being dumb, and they are often can handle magic, and sometimes they are vicious tricksters. They have a lot in kommon with kobolds. Also, in some myths they maybe have common traits with dark elves, leprechauns, or drows or trows, but I'd like to hear someone's opinion who has more knowledge about this. Also, usually goblins were told to be responsible for changelings, so I see absolutely no reason for their existence as a different race.

Dwarves (or dwarfs, if you insist, but I don't think it matters much how their plural is handled in a certain language): I don't know if they have dwarves in other cultures, but middle-european dwarves are the ones described in Snowwhite. Dwarves always described as miners or smiths, and that makes them similar to kobolds or certain dark elves. I'd put them in the goblins' category, but their personality, and attitude seems highly different to me. If you know anything notable of various dwarves that could help my decision about this, just tell me. I was thinking that the Slavian Domovoi could be classified as a dwarf as well, or perhaps they are more likely to be in the goblins' group? There's the issue of the gremlin. I don't know if they existed a century before, the first time I saw them mentioned was about WW air pilots, who accused them if something in their plane went wrong. They are a reverse dwarf, and could be a nickname of a dwarf who is bad at blacksmithing, or sabotages something. Some info about the nature of norse dwarves would come in handy, too.

Gnomes: the name of gnomes origins from the word [gnosis], which means knowledge. They usually wield illusion magic, and know a lot of ancient lore. As I think they have nothing common with the other races described above, so they need a race on their own. Some info about gnomes in certain myths would be good, too.

@ Serakus and belboz: Anglosaxon and gael ettins are two-headed, sure, but ettins in other cultures are just a kind of giant, usually an ugly one. I brought up Oni, because that's the only oriental monster I know (If you know other ones, just tell me). I think they are big demons, like the djinn of arabia. That would make them basically a big, magic-wieldig race. Like titans. That's why I created two groups of giant, one for the dumb, ugly giants, and one for the intelligent, magic-wielding ones. As for the lack of diversity causing much trouble: I don't like to use pre-made monsters, and I nearly always fudge with their hd, or give them class levels. I know some people don't like to do this, but I prefer this way. Much less template to keep in mind, I think it would make things plainer and easier. I guess it's a matter of taste, so there's no point arguing over it.

@ thehothead: I don't know really much of various dark elves (darkelffar, or something like that in norse), so if you have details please share with me :) Norse legends have light and dark elves, opposed to ech other, as I recall, so I thought I'd make them into my two basic groups. Light elves have much in common with feys, that made group "elf", and dark elves have traits similar with goblins, and that made them into that group. And yes, scientist have pretty much free time these days, they even figured out that the yeti legend could origin from gigantopitecus, a large gorilla-like monkey, or that the greek legends of the cyclops originally referred to gorillas, kidnapping women (their point was that cyclops means round-eyed, not single-eyed, and gorillas do have round eyes, and african tribes have legends about them stealing women).

[TheEscapist]

I don't know really much of various dark elves (darkelffar, or something like that in norse), so if you have details please share with me :) Norse legends have light and dark elves, opposed to ech other, as I recall, so I thought I'd make them into my two basic groups. Light elves have much in common with feys, that made group "elf", and dark elves have traits similar with goblins, and that made them into that group. And yes, scientist have pretty much free time these days, they even figured out that the yeti legend could origin from gigantopitecus, a large gorilla-like monkey, or that the greek legends of the cyclops originally referred to gorillas, kidnapping women (their point was that cyclops means round-eyed, not single-eyed, and gorillas do have round eyes, and african tribes have legends about them stealing women).

All I've got to add at this point is that all of the research I've done regarding Norse mythology (and it has been fairly extensive, though I don't know how it compares to other people's knowledge of the subject) says that the line drawn between dwarves and dark elves was very unclear. It always seemed to me that dark elves had much more in common with dwarves than with regular old elves. Therefore, you may want to consider giving dwarves the fey subtype if you want to maintain their connection to elves. If you're looking to stay as true to real-world mythology as possible, "dark elf" could just be a nickname or regional name for dwarves, or vise-versa. If you want to move a little more toward the D&D mythos, perhaps you could blend both the drow and the dwarf racial statistics and abilities.

[amanodel]

Yes, that crossed my mind when I've read through the Norse mythology. I decided to this because the other, non-Norse myths, but maybe change my mind and go that way.

The "dark spirits" in European folklore did have a lot of common traits. Basically they live underground, work with precious metals, sometimes play cruel tricks on humans, and sometimes they wield magic. Kobolds, goblins, drows, dwarves and darkelves fit into this group more or less, and perhaps the Leprechaun (I'm not sure on that, tough). I'd bend all their abilites together, since they have very much in common at the core.

If someone could tell me about dwarfs in other myths, I could decide it much more easier. Norse dwarfs would fit into that categrory, I remember they were able to cast magic, but I'm not sure.

That'd make "humanoids" into six race. Humans, dumb giants (ogres), intelligent giants (titans), forest elves, kobolds (underground fey), and gnomes.

[belboz]

amanodel -

OK; cool. I certainly have no objections to using homebrewed monsters exclusively; I don't, but that's a matter of what I have time for, not my gaming ideals.

I am *pretty* sure that British hobgoblins actually have more in common with Russian domovoi than with standard goblins. They live in people's houses (hence "hob", or hearth), are benevolent as long as they're treated well, and so on. It's just a matter of naming--one way or the other, they get collapsed into another creature--but that is my impression. And since you wanted help categorizing these myths, it might be relevant.

Admittedly, my knowledge of norse/germanic dwar*s comes primarily from Wagner, who probably isn't a great source in terms of mythographic accuracy (though at least he satisfies the pre-Tolkein requirement). The Ring, IIRC, divides the universe into three parts: "Above the earth, where dwell the gods; on the earth, where dwell the giants; and below the earth, where dwell the dwarfs." I was taking from that that the dwarves's situation was parallel to the gods'; if the latter get their own plane, so should the former.

Anyway, this is also a matter of semantics. If you're going with post-Asgard dwarfs as your "dwarfs", then that's OK.

[Telonius]

Cyclopes. One-eyed giants.
Mermaids/sirens: lured sailors to their doom. Can exist on rivers (i.e. Lorelei)

If any American stuff might help:
Thunderbird. Very dangerous and large type of bird; sometimes considered sacred; some stories have them shapeshifting into humans.
Ogopogo. Canada's "Loch Ness Monster."
White Buffalo: Ordinary buffalo, but it's an albino. Considered sacred by some tribes.
Jersey Devil: Flying creature, two legs and hooves. Inhabits New Jersey.
La Chupacabra: A hairless, dog-like creature that preys on livestock.

[endoperez]

Dominions series of turn-based strategy does this. The descriptions are wonderful. As far as giants go, it has Jotun giants who are cold-resistant and prefer the company of their ancestors, the Niefel giants, or the Vaetti (goblins) of their forests. Their Skratti sorcerers can change shape and try to call back the Rimtursar, ice giants.
Then there are Agarthan one-eyed giants that start their life underwater and later move to live in huge cave systems. They eat moss and olms and other stuff humans consider inedible, and just keep on growing. They are amphibious. The nation is ruled by three castes of Oracles (of Subterranean Waters, of Subterranean Fires, and of the Dead), and Earth Readers study and control the rock and stone all around them. They craft statues to guard their caverns, and later when their race dwindles the immigrated humans start worshipping both the statues' creators and the statues themselves.
Oni of early Yomon are pretty horrible, what with them being demon. They're pretty similar to the Rakshasas of Lanka in that. Both are big but not huge, can survive without food but REALLY like eating, etc. Oni are ruled by the biggest and meaniest ones, while Rakshasas are more civilized and diverse in numbers. Both nations rely a lot on enslaved underlings; to lowly bakemono goblins and humans for Oni Kings of Yomi, and to monkey-castes of Markata (monkeys), Atavi (apes) and warrior Bandar (gorillas) in the isle of Lanka.

Other races aren't generally bigger than normal humans, apart from few exceptions and few specific troops, like Minotaurs of Greek-myhs' Pangaea.

[Yakk]

Underfolk: Goblins, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes
Forestfolk: Fae, Dryads, Elves
Hillfolk: Giants, Ogres
Fieldfolk: Humans
Waterfolk: Merfolk
Skyfolk: Gods/Titans

The world in a pre-modern standpoint isn't nearly as solid as we consider it. Places where mankind does not tread are very different -- time and space don't match up with our time and space.

Dark forests, Wild hills, Large waters and Deep tunnels should be a different plane of reality.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Basically, Norse Dark Elves = Dwarf. There is no distinction what so ever. The word dwarf comes from svart (dark) alfer (elf), compare to what would be something (haven't studied german in 3 odd years) like (d) Schwartz Elfen in modern German. Dungeons and Dragons Drow take their soot black skin from discriptions of Norse Dark Elves. Deurgar is a variant of Svartalfer.

Don't trust Wagner for mythology. He basically tried to adapt the Nibelunglied, found that it had almost no magic in it what so ever, so he borrowed huge ammounts of stuff from the related Norse myths. Then he based the whole plot around a single passage of the Niebelunglied which talks about a magic wand (of power over the entire world if you know the now forgotten way to use it) which is never mention again. He also made up this nonsense about Valkyrie being warriors...

You basically have to re-write the whole monster manual. For example Nixie in the Monster Manual are neutral water sprites that might attack you if you go near them. Mythological Nixies are Siren like Nymphs who will lure you to your death. Then there's the other problem is that most of the words are pretty generic. For example, some germanic Kobolds are gnome-like earth dwellers whilst others are house spirits akin to Zashiki Warashi. Another example is the word Yeti, which the Tibetans actually use to describe a variety of large mammals such as bears and monkeys. The simple fact is that words get thrown about entire languages but mythological beliefs are very region specific.

The other problem is that dnd types are too specific. Mythology is full of creatures that could easily be interpreted in DnD as fey, outsiders or undead. Trolls for example are sometimes undead humans and sometimes a seperate race that breeds among itself. The word Undead itself being invented by Bram Stoker and not necessaraly appliable to mythology.

[Matthew]

Real world mythology is a huge mish mash of confusing and often as not contradictory information and concepts. You could probably find something to support pretty much any view you like.

That said, you might be interested in the Fairy Folk / Elves found in the Middle English Sir Orfeo. Seems to me that they are very much like the Elves of Tolkien in appearance (but bearing in mind that they are pre Tolkien). Of course, the whole tale is a retelling of the Ancient Greek Orfeus myth, which means the Fairy King is Hades / Pluto recast.

[amanodel]

@ belboz: So, It'd be better to make the wee folk into different categories? Forest creatures (elf-like), underground creatures (kobold-like, including dwarfs and darkelfs), gnomes, and "household" sprits (domovoi-like), perhaps? Or perhaps gnomes could go with hobgoblins and domovoi, perhaps with leprechauns, usually they are pictured similar. I'm not sure where I'd put leprechauns, into the gnome, or into the kobold-like category, I need to think over it. Any suggestions?

@ closet skeleton: Yes, that is my main concern too, that similar names decribe different creatures, and differnt names similar creatures... kobolds are mostly earth-dwellers, the name of the metal "cobalt" comes from them. There were even sea kobolds later, but basically they are earth-dwellers.

@ endoperez, Yakk, Telonius, Matthew: Thanks for the help!


So we got now:
Forestfolk: Fey, elf, dryad, huldra, faerie
Underfolk: Goblin, kobold, dwarf, darkelf, duergar, drow
Housefolk: Tomte, domovoi, heinzelmannchen, brownie, hobgoblin
Waterfolk: Sirene, nix. (perhaps could be merged with forestfolk)
Giantfolk: Ogre, jeti, bigfoot, giant, ettin, jotun, troll
Titanfolk: Titan, oni, djinn, fomorian

Where'd you put leprechaun and gnome?

[belboz]

From what little I know (basically your own sources), gnomes sound more like underfolk than anything else. If anything, that wikipedia entry makes it sound like classically, they were elemental creatures (like sylphs, undines, salamanders, etc), but of earth. (Some other creatures have been categorized this way too, I think. "Kobold," I believe, has sometimes been used to refer to not just those who dwell beneath the earth, like goblins, but to earth elemental spirits. Of course, in a lot of cases the distinctions between fey and elementals were pretty blurry; generally commoners were more interested in thinking of them as we think of fey, while "scientists" [such as they were] and magicians cared about them more in their elemental capacities.)

They're certainly forestfolk in some more modern traditions, though.

[Yakk]

You could do a "Folk cross Element" thing?

Ie, N "folks" and M "elements" for NxM "races".

[Brady_Kj]

I was thinking a similar thing. Only my variables were a much lamer size*smarts. i.e. you already have your smart magic giants (Titans) and stupid magicless giants (ogres); if you apply that system to everything, it'd be an interestingly symetrical world.

Anyway, I'd like to comment on Belboz's statement that the dwarfs have their own plane in Norse mythology. What they had was their own world (Read "Big Area") on a distant part of the physical plane.

And I'd like to make another comment that you might want to consider making humans the only player race. Because if you're true to mythology, most other races would be so very overpowered compared to humans. For example, dwarfs would have the ability to craft magic items so neat they make the friggin' GODS want to pay a dear price for them. Speaking of which, do you have any plans about gods?

[amanodel]

I don't really would like to use only Norse myth dwarfs, so it's not that important if they had a plane on their own or not. Basically, I don't want to create a setting based on Norse, or any other mythology, but a setting suitable for nearly all of them. That's why I'm doing this categorizin' business.

Humans as the only player race? I don't see the others too powerful, save for one race. Housefolk, altough have some magical abilites, would be weak in a one on one fight versus a human knight. Forestfolk and Underfolk also has some power, but physichally, are weaker than humans; sure dwarfs can forge well, but 20th level dwarfs could forge on legendary items, not level 1 starters. Giantfolk are strong like hell, but their mental abilities would be limited. The only really powerful race would be Titanfolk. But that sounds right, they are next to the gods in every mythology.

Gods, a tough question. I was planning to go with a few gods, with many aspects associated with them. Perhaps they could be based on elementals, or the sun and the moon, like the Giant did it in his own setting. Still undecided.

Elementals could be an interesting aspect of the races, and altough I can see them related to certain elements or powers, they are not elementals. Underfolk is associated with Earth, Forestfolk with Nature (or water), Waterfolk with water, Titanfolk with air, perhaps. It could be done with some work, and could be merged with the elements as godly powers theory.


Idea about gnomes and leprechauns: They don't go well with underfolk, since all the underfolks have dark skin. But they could be merged into forestfolk. "Gnome" could be a "nickname" of any forestfolk wizard, and "leprechaun" could be the name of any forestfolk who decides to live with the humans in disguise. Sounds acceptable?

[Brady_Kj]

Aren't gnomes and dwarves historically the same thing? I was thinking maybe you could make gnome the word they call particularly powerful dwarves.


Or if you want them to be forestfolks, they could be forestfolks who are good at building or engineering. But, I really think that gnomes are more closely connected to the underground than any other race is. A friend of mine suggested making the gnomes a race of people who have abilities involving moving rocks and strips of land. That would make them pretty badass, I think.

And you definitely need a race of small neutral magic tricksters who hang around people's houses and request gifts of food in exchange for not having some magical bad thing happen to you. Perhaps those can be the leprechauns?

[edit: Nevermind, that's what you have the Nisses listed for. Make sure a lot of them make their living by protecting houses, but like to do mischief. Or, perhaps, the gnomes could be the housefolk who do that. If they live underground.]

[endoperez]

Anyway, I'd like to comment on Belboz's statement that the dwarfs have their own plane in Norse mythology. What they had was their own world (Read "Big Area") on a distant part of the physical plane.

And I'd like to make another comment that you might want to consider making humans the only player race. Because if you're true to mythology, most other races would be so very overpowered compared to humans. For example, dwarfs would have the ability to craft magic items so neat they make the friggin' GODS want to pay a dear price for them. Speaking of which, do you have any plans about gods?

Well, the gods who bought the items from the dwarves were just Aesir or Vanir, who fought the Niefel and Muspel ice and fire giants. Jotun might be a third kind of giant, or just a general word for giant, but any way, the gods are about as powerful as the giants. The "gods" could as well be called Titans, Magical beasts, Tuatha, Dragons, etc. Basically, not that more powerful as monsters, but way more powerful as far as cultural and religious power goes.

Waterfolk:
You should decide whether it's just creatures living in the water, or also creatures living near water.
Merfolk (half-men and half-fish), Selkies and other shape-changers who are animals or part-animals in the water but can take the animal skin off or just transform, perhaps frog-like race of Deep Ones if you count Lovecraft as pre-Tolkien.

Forestfolk, Waterfolk, etc isn't a good way to categorize this. ALL places were imagined to have dozens of different spirits, and now the mountain, or flying, or cemetary or other beings are left out. Gargoyles? Centaurs? Minotaur(s), Satyrs?

I'm not sure if the forests/elves connection came with Tolkien or not. I understand they were connected to wild nature in general. Wild folk, such as satyrs, could hold all spirits of the untamed wild, and most shapeshifter types like Werewolves.
I would move many others to a category that could be called a Seelie court: Fae and elves as organized, inhuman races, or those races mimicking human societies, and especially all those races who leave changelings in the place of the real children. There must be some goblin-like creatures like this outside Finland, too, so the goblins could be added to the list and perhaps later replaced with a better word.

Giantfolk is a pretty good category. Housefolk is good. Underfolk is pretty good, but some creatures are both e.g. giants and live under earth, or elves and live under earth. It can't be avoided, but will cause some categorizing problems at some point.

[amanodel]

@ Brady KJ: Historically, Dwarves and gnomes are lot different, altough in some cases they are similar. Dwarves are underground folk, often benevolent, and they are mining and forging metals. Gnomes have pointy hats, know a lot of lore, are often masters of magic and can hide under a mushroom. The d&d gnome has nearly nothing in connection with myth gnomes. They sometimes live underground, sometimes in forests, and sometimes are associated with earth or the forest spirits, categorizing them is hard. I perhaps go with a version where the term "gnome" would mean a wizard of the forestfolk or underfolk.


And you definitely need a race of small neutral magic tricksters who hang around people's houses and request gifts of food in exchange for not having some magical bad thing happen to you. Perhaps those can be the leprechauns? See "housefolk" category. I don't know a lot from leprechauns, that's why I'd need someone to help me with categorizing them. If you say that leprechauns are house spirits, than I put them into that category.

@ endoperez: I left out garoyles, centaurs and their kin on purpose. These categories are only applied to human-like creatures. The world itself still can have undeads or magical monsters, I only try to reduce the number of human-like races. Elfs' connection with forest are from long before Tolkein, or anyone who wrote myths down. These categories are supposed to function like d&d races. So basically all creatures listed under a category would have the same monster manual entry. The name used to describe them, such as dryad or fae, could either be a local name, one represeting their class or social status or employment.
Werewolves are an entirely different thing, I'd keep the d&d template, since it's quite good.
Goblins are already listed under the "underfolk" category.
Are you from Finland? If so could you tell somethings about finnish "spirits"? Like the tonntu (spelled something similar) (tomte in norse). Wikipedia says they are household spirits, is that true?

[Brady_Kj]

Oh, no, I have no idea whether leprechauns are house folks. I just know they're Irish and wear green. And apparently they give you gold when you catch them.
However, I should point out that I've noticed my error in missing the housefolk category. That's why I wrote "Nevermind, that's what the Nisses are for". Except of course you prefer calling them Tomtes.
By the way, the Nisses protect people's farms and houses, and help keep things in order. But they're very easily ticked off and frequently steal things from people and cause all sorts of havoc. There seems to be an old belief that a Nisse is the spirit of the man who built the farm, and thus when people did things for the Nisses it was like a form of ancestor worship.

I imagine the Finnish Tonntus are exactly the same.

[belboz]

So I gather, as these are player races, that you're going to leave out the...weirder aspects of these folk as told in the stories. You don't want to be able to, for example, evict a goblin from your home by making it say its age; you don't want your forest-types all able to create illusory gold from leaves, etc.

Or maybe you would...it doesn't need to be that easy to make goblins say their age, and I suppose you could explain the forest-folk thing by saying that almost all the ones people actually meet are mid-level or higher illusionists (starting party members are especially young, and NPCs of these creature types almost never have NPC-classes only).

[amanodel]

@ belboz: You got it right, the special abilities, like "creating gold", or "disappearing in the forest", would be abilities gaind from higher class level, like mage or druid.


Okay, so categories are largely settled for now. The only question is wether to megre waterfolk into forestfolk or not. The two waterfolk
Nix and Sirene both bear the same seductive trait like the huldra, only they live by rivers, not at forests.

Now comes the step to d&d-ify them by creatin their MM entry.

Let's take forestfolk firts.

Thier size varies between medium and tiny. I'd make them either small or medium. +2 Wis, +2 Cha, or +2 Dex comes to mind, while -2 Str, -2 Con seems right too. Favored class should be druid. +2 Dex -2 Str only if we choose that they are small. They could be done without any LA. Thinkig of it I like the medium-sizedness, not to leave the humans as the only medium-sized player race.

Any spell-like or extraordinary abilities you can think of? Speak with animals 1/day, charm animal 1/day, pass without trace...

Now let's go to underfolk.

Size most likely small, thus +2 Dex -2 Str. +2 Cha could fin in, as +2 Int or Wis, hard call here. For favourite class I'd either give them rogue or some arcane spellcaster class, probably sorcerer.

Spell-like abilites like darkness 1/day or invisibility 1/day sounds good to me.

Now let's move to housefolk.

Their size could be either smal or tiny (I don't think there are any tiny player races, tough. It'd be interesting). -2 or -4 to Str, some size bonus to dex, wisdom bonus perhaps? Favoured class could be roue or some caster class, I'm not sure.

Spell-like abilites like invisibility 1/day or prestidigitation (perhaps at will)?

Waterfolk... since both of these races have functional legs, I guess I megre them into forestflok, and use the names to describe them that they are living near water. Mermaids an other not-really-humanlike creatures should remain non-player races.

Giantfolk next.

I guess the ogre monster manual entry could be used for them.
+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
Large size, with four levels of giant and +2 LA. Favoured class barbarian for sure.

Titanfolk comes.

The titan entry is way too powerful. I'd modify the ogre entry to create my magical giants.
+8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
Large size, four levels of giant, and an LA around +3.
They schould have a notable amount of spell-like or extraordinary abilities as well. Favoured class should be wizard or the like.


Ideas, opinions?

[Total_Viking_Power]

Now, I have read only 2/3rds of the threat (it was getting long :P), so bear with me if I repeat something allready stated.

I am going to concentrate on Norse/Germanic (incl. Anglo-saxon) myths, since it's what I do best. (A couple of Celtic thingies snuck in :P)
I suggest that you make a different set of creatures for each region, this representing Northern Europe, minus some Finnish and Saami myths.

There is no such thing as inherently "good" creatures in Norse mythology. Every creature is an individual, and can even switch "alignment" on different occasions. That being said, there is an obvious bend in some types of creatures, like Trolls being evil and Dwarfs being neutral.

On names: You want broad categories, yes? with varying names depending on locale and the behaviour of the creature?
Then I suggest this divison:

- Humans (including half-gods and stuff who are mortal)
examples: Beowulf, Tjalfe, Sigurd Fafnirsbane, witches and wizards (sometimes)

- Giants (Not nescecarily large, but tough and (often) ugly creatures with varying degrees of magical powers)
examples: Trolls, Ettin, most unnamed Jotun/jättar, muspelfolk, Ents, Hrimtursar

- Gods (Includes special Giants) (Giant-like creatures with serious exraordinary and/or magical powers. Often beatiful or at least humanely looking)
examples: Thor, Loki, Hrym, Bestla, Mimir, Freya, Hel

- Spirits (for want of better name) (Varyingly good, evil or neutral, even within races)
Examples:Dwarfs/svartalfar, Elves (hollow in the back, trickster kind), the Underground People, Goblins (incl. Nissar & Hobgoblins), Klabautermen (kobolds. Mine/underground spirits, nothing remotely reptilian), Pixies, Brownies, all long-leggity things that go "Bump" in the night. Witches and wizards (sometimes)

- Undead: (spirits of the deceased, not including werewolves. Usually evil, but some ghosts have been known to act as advisors or helpers)
examples: Banshee, Lich (walking corpse), ghosts of varying kinds, mylings (malevolent spirits of drowned infants)

- Demons: (Otherworldly, malevolent spirits)
Werewolves (cursed humans), (Night)mares, the Hel Horse, Orc (Old English, nothing to do with DnD-type Orcs),

None of the categories are near full on examples. Countles creatures can be mentioned.

[Thistle]

- Undead: (spirits of the deceased, not including werewolves. Usually evil, but some ghosts have been known to act as advisors or helpers)
examples: Banshee, Lich (walking corpse), ghosts of varying kinds, mylings (malevolent spirits of drowned infants)

I'd just like to point out that in traditional mythology banshees are actually of the fairy folk. Normally associated with a particular (often noble) house and would act as dirge singers at the funerals for that family. They would sometimes indicate that a family member that was far away had passed on.
Other stories have them as washing the clothes of the deceased.
Sorry for the tangent. Continue on with the normal thread.

[Total_Viking_Power]

There, you see? I've got a bit to learn about Celtic mythos... :)
Anywho, it all needs fleshing out.

[amanodel]

@ TVP, Thistle: Thanks for the info! The gods, were-creatures, demons and the like will only be used later, once I'm done with the player races. I basically made some of the "spirits" as humanoid, player races. Your categories are good, but a little too large for my purpose, as I not only work with Norse mythology. Basically I've got two races of giants, three races of spirits to cover the mythology of the whole world. Perhaps you could tell me where to draw the line about the Norse gaints, which one being barbaristic and which one more magical? As TVP suggested, I don't want to have pre-determined alignment.

(Thistle, by chance, are you not of Scottish origin? :) )

[endoperez]

The base word is Tonttu (although in Finnish, it goes around as tontut (plural), tontun (tonttu's), tonttujen (tonttus') etc), and as was said before, it's a house-spirit that was given food and thought to look over a house, or a sauna, perhaps the lands of a spesific farmer, etc.

[Thistle]

Thistle, by chance, are you not of Scottish origin? :)

Danish, actually, with some ancestry from the Germanic regions and English Isles (mostly Wales).
I'm not quite sure I understand the question. Did I miss something?

[amanodel]

@ Thistle: Nothing. You just happend to comment on Celtic mythology, and Scotland has a nick-name The Land of the Thistle :)

@ endoperez: Thanks!

[Total_Viking_Power]

There are many characters in Norse mythology that would be best described by your Titan class. Most of the Giants (jotun) who fall into that category are named, humanlike people who live like humans. They have farms, castles, fields, whatnot, and are described rather like humans. They just happen to be Giants. Same goes for the gods, of whom not a few are actually jotun (Tyr, Mimir, Loki).
You could make the divison based on whether or not that creature is intelligent enough to live as a human.

The magic of the "Titans" i Norse mythology is not always phenomonal, but it is among these characters you find the most potent scorcerers. Especially the Vana (Njord, Frey and Freya), and Odin are skilled in magic, as well as some of the jotun. They often have special powers, inherent magic (Cha-based).
Odin is different, he uses the runes to make his magic (Int or Wis-based). Sejdr (natural magic, witchcraft), mostly practised by the Vana women (Freya especially) requires deep knowledge of nature (Wis)
There is often an equation of knowledge and (magical) power in the stories.

[amanodel]

@ TVP: Well, I had some problems with Jotuns. They are not nearly as dumb as an ogre should be, but usually don't posess the arcane prowess of the titan, djinn, or oni. I'm still debating what to do with them.
But in other myths the line between dumb and half-divine giants is much more clearer, so I probably remian with my current two groups.

I have a campaign setting -based solution in mind. Maybe I can have a northern giant kingom where the two giant races live together, and the poeple of that land could be called "jotun"... Ogrefolk would be smarter than in other lands, since they are led by titanfolk, and they could easily have a humanlike culture in that way.
Nicknameing smart ogrefok "jotun" could be a viable way, but I like the other idea a bit better.

[Vargtass]

Housefolk should definately be tiny, if you go for a pre-Tolkien/mythological design. They should probably also have natural invisibility or camouflage abilities.

[amanodel]

I gave them invisibility and prestidigitation to be able to cause havoc to a household. :)

[Vargtass]

I gave them invisibility and prestidigitation to be able to cause havoc to a household. :)

Good. That will work!

[Ladoran]

As far as I remember my norse mythology, the jotun (jætter, whatever we call them) mostly use trickster magic. Some of them are indeed as powerful as the gods (aesir), especially the jotun called Utgards-Loki who tricks Thor, Loki and Tjalfe into competing with some very interesting things. Thor tries to drink the ocean, fight old age, and lift the Jormungand (in the shape of a cat). Loki tries to outeat fire, and Tjalfe tries to outrun thought. None of these contests are what they look like of course.

They are definitely not all stupid, if they were a lot of the norse legends could not be.

An aside to werewolves and other were-creatures. I seem to remember that this was not an affliction like it is in normal D&D, it's more of a suit that you could don, this "suit" could be cursed though. A description of how this works can be found here (http://www.tjatsi.fo/?side=fb0a3898ff995526cd252fe02bd16054) under "Sigmund and Sinfjötli in Wolf-Skins" which is part of the Volsung-saga that is in many parts the same as Niebelungen Ring.

Another recurring monster in the norse mythologi is the "lind-orm", literally translated to lindworm. This is basicly just a big snake, sometimes with the added bonus of poisonous blood. Regnar Lodbrok battles one for his first wife. For some reason this sort of beast is often used to keep maidens indoors. Go figure. Probably a metaphor for something :smallbiggrin:.

[Total_Viking_Power]

Year, I forgot Dragons and stuff. You might want a "Magical Beast" category, including drangons, pheonixes, talking dogs and the like. They are a key factor in most mythologies I know of.

P.s. What's with this thread? Two Danes and a Danish-American? Oh well, must be the mythical strain in us :P

[amanodel]

Magical beasts are a different topic, I first wanted to discuss humanoids only.


Vikings swarming the thread? Must have something to do with the fact that Vikings used to write down their myths at ancient times, never got under foreign opression who'd make them to forget their legends, and invaded some nowadays important countries (like UK) to spread their beliefs. Also it helps you a lot when you have the days of the week named after your gods, doesn't it? :) Not to mention that you've got internet even in the bathroom up there in the north, so a post-viking is more likely to get into gitp than someone from a poorer country. :) As I think of it, it's the only pagan mthyology other than greco-roman that really survived. Celtics are kinda disappeared, and the English legends are really just a mixture of Norse and celtic myths. Slavic people didn't had the tendency to write down stuff, but it's still not dead. Tough I wonder if there are too many members here from slavic countries, I heard they are not keen on roleplaying. Finnish culture got influenced by the Norse. And who gives a damn about Hungarian mythology, anyway :) That leaves you the nearly only living bearers of ancient knowledge, my dear Norsemen. (/ramble)

[belboz]

...at least in Europe. I'm actually kind of surprised that more people from Asia (or whose anscestors were from Asia and are still in touch with the ancenstral culture) haven't commented on how (if at all) all the "folk" line up with various Asian stories.

[beholder]

RuneQuest.

Glorantha, with its Bronze Age cultures, local divine cults, and quasi-mythic worldview, *seems* to be the kind of thing you're looking for. Ignore the sillier-seeming elements (the Ducks and Jackobears are a breaker for some people), and soak up the pre-Tolkien ambiance.

One of the major ways characters gain both power and social status in the game is by emulating the gods through symbolic re-enactment of their great mythic tales; a good worshipper *lives* his god's commandments by acting as his god would.

Issaries.com (http://www.glorantha.com/) is a good starting point.

god i love runequest

[amanodel]

Well Asia is a big continent with many people. But. People in Asia either don't have internet, don't know what roleplying is, forbidden from internet, don't know english at all, or are from Japan or South Korea. Seeing that Rich doesn't draw in anime style, they're not interested in this site neither. (Okay, I know I'm saying stereotypes, but stereotypes sometimes prove to be true.) There were a vote once named "Form where do you hail?"

Anglosaxon world (england, north america, australia) got around 170 votes.
Western Europe got 36.
Eastern Europe got 7.
Latin America got 6.
Middle East got 3.
Rest of Asia got 3.
Oceania got 0.
Africa got 0.

That's why.