Possible plothole? Cloister

[HalfTangible]

How did Haley receive that Sending in #893 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html)?

We're told when it's first introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) that the Cloister has a minimum duration of 21 weeks, and Tsukiko tells the MitD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) that Xykon has been renewing it every few weeks (let's be generous here and say he renews it every 6 weeks, and assume Haley left right before Xykon reapplied it.) That leaves 15 weeks. Now, it's been roughly a fortnight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) since Roy was raised. (13 weeks) Haley was in Greysky city for a week before the Thieve's guild attacked (12 weeks), and back when the Order first went to the sunken valley, we were told that the trip was a few days from Azure city. (12 weeks - a few days) Kazumi stated that Haley's Sending got to the fleet a few days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) before Vaarsuvius 'ported into her room. (12 weeks - a few days - another few days) Gonna be generous and assume 'few days' still means 6 days in both cases. (12 weeks - 12 days) (11 weeks - 5 days) (10 weeks, 2 days).

And Cloister blocks Sendings, so it should've been another few months before Haley could be contacted.

Did I miss something?

[Goosefarble]

Remember that the Azure City fleet was well out of the city before Xykon cast Cloister. Only Hinjo's junk stayed in the harbour; everyone else was out at sea, so they weren't affected by the Cloister.

EDIT: OH RIGHT. I see what you're getting at now. My bad. :smallredface: Yeah, I don't know, in that case; I've never been great at getting the timeframes right.

[137beth]

Or Tsukiko was wrong. Or we're being to picky about the meaning of "few." In the geekery thread, it was determined that it was at most 47 weeks between Xykon capturing Azure city and Haley getting the sending. So Xykon's level must be in the range 21-47, probably closer to the lower end. In any case, he wouldn't need to renew it constantly, so he was probably just about to renew it before Haley left. Apparently, Xykon's renewal cycle is longer than 6 weeks.

[Shred-Bot]

Or Tsukiko was wrong. Or we're being to picky about the meaning of "few." In the geekery thread, it was determined that it was at most 47 weeks between Xykon capturing Azure city and Haley getting the sending. So Xykon's level must be in the range 21-47, probably closer to the lower end. In any case, he wouldn't need to renew it constantly, so he was probably just about to renew it before Haley left. Apparently, Xykon's renewal cycle is longer than 6 weeks.

Indeed, a fashionable lich like Xykon would want to wear that lame hippie headband as rarely as possible. Particularly after he got the badass crown back from Roy.

[Emanick]

I think the simplest explanation is that Haley took an extremely long time to get to Greysky City. Remember, she left Azure City after fourteen weeks of hanging with the Resistance and feuding with Pigtail Girl. And it's now five weeks from the end of the year, less than three weeks after Haley sent the Sending spell. Even if Xykon cast Cloister immediately before Haley left, he would have to be level 30-31 in order for the spell to be working on our favorite orange-haired rogue when she Sent to Durkon. And not too many people think Xykon is that powerful.

Now, yes, this means that Belkar, Celia and Haley spent nearly 30 weeks walking from Azure City to the Sunken Valley to Greysky City, which I find strange and weird. But I think it's an unavoidable conclusion, and it's not exactly a plot hole. Maybe they got lost a lot?

[mhsmith]

It's also possible that when Cloister renews, it unmakes the previous casting, so if Xykon recasted sometime after Haley left, she'd be able to get sendings.

[Vinsfeld]

Or Tsukiko was wrong. Or we're being to picky about the meaning of "few." In the geekery thread, it was determined that it was at most 47 weeks between Xykon capturing Azure city and Haley getting the sending. So Xykon's level must be in the range 21-47, probably closer to the lower end. In any case, he wouldn't need to renew it constantly, so he was probably just about to renew it before Haley left. Apparently, Xykon's renewal cycle is longer than 6 weeks.

Maybe there is some kind of mitigating factor from the Cloyster spell. So that Xykon wouldn't cast it as often as Tsukiko said.

[Tock Zipporah]

At the beginning of the last book, Roy finds out he had been dead for three and a half months: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html

Haley leaves Azure City only a few days later: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html . After we saw her battle Tsukiko, Celia got summoned, and insisted Haley leave the city right away. That means Haley left the city before the fourth month since the conquest of Azure City.

Redcloak named Jirix the prime minister of Gobbotopia and said in his speech they are six weeks from the one year anniversary of the conquest: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

That means a six month or so gap between Haley leaving Azure City and receiving the sending

[Gift Jeraff]

When Haley left, about 113 days (103 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) + 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) + 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)) had passed from Roy's death. We are now about 5 weeks away from the anniversary of Roy's death. If Xykon cast Cloister the moment Haley left Azure City, 31 weeks have passed since then.

Yeah, the passage of time in Haley's group seems a little off. I'd just assume that they travelled slowly due to carrying Roy's body, having to find long ways around to avoid hobgoblin camps, and eventually Belkar's curse.

[Grinner]

Does anyone actually know the distances between these cities?

[HalfTangible]

At the beginning of the last book, Roy finds out he had been dead for three and a half months: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html

Haley leaves Azure City only a few days later: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html . After we saw her battle Tsukiko, Celia got summoned, and insisted Haley leave the city right away. That means Haley left the city before the fourth month since the conquest of Azure City.

Redcloak named Jirix the prime minister of Gobbotopia and said in his speech they are six weeks from the one year anniversary of the conquest: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

That means a six month or so gap between Haley leaving Azure City and receiving the sending.... How? Greysky city wasn't months away, she only stayed there for maybe two weeks, and she got the sending two weeks after Roy was raised.

(also, nitpick here, but Roy also ran down a mountain for 9 days. So Haley left roughly 4 months after the conquest)

Where are the other four/five months coming from?


Does anyone actually know the distances between these cities?

Cliffport was more than four weeks away even if they managed to get horses, but Celia implied Greysky city was much closer, just past some mountains.

[Gift Jeraff]

Does anyone actually know the distances between these cities?

Lickmyorangeballshalfling is a few days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) from Azure City.

Greysky City is the first major city north of Hobgoblin City (War and XPs), and the Hobgoblin Horde was able to march from Hobgoblin City to Azure City in the time it took the OOTS to get to the Oracle and back + the 3 days Nale was disguised as Elan + the day Shojo died.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's also possible that when Cloister renews, it unmakes the previous casting, so if Xykon recasted sometime after Haley left, she'd be able to get sendings.

Possible, but magic doesn't generally work that way in D&D so it's kinda a stretch.

[Emanick]

Lickmyorangeballshalfling is a few days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) from Azure City.

Greysky City is the first major city north of Hobgoblin City (War and XPs), and the Hobgoblin Horde was able to march from Hobgoblin City to Azure City in the time it took the OOTS to get to the Oracle and back + the 3 days Nale was disguised as Elan + the day Shojo died.

Do we know for sure that the horde left at the same in-comic time that the Order was acquitted in Shojo's mock trial? I can see the Giant showing stuff that was happening at different times in the same montage for dramatic purposes.

[Xelbiuj]

Remove curse, dispel magic, . . .?
Just a thought. :\

[Gift Jeraff]

Do we know for sure that the horde left at the same in-comic time that the Order was acquitted in Shojo's mock trial? I can see the Giant showing stuff that was happening at different times in the same montage for dramatic purposes.

Good point.

[Cavenskull]

Do we know for sure that the horde left at the same in-comic time that the Order was acquitted in Shojo's mock trial? I can see the Giant showing stuff that was happening at different times in the same montage for dramatic purposes.
According to Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html), it would take several weeks for the hobgoblin horde to march to Azure City.

[Tock Zipporah]

.... How? Greysky city wasn't months away, she only stayed there for maybe two weeks, and she got the sending two weeks after Roy was raised.

(also, nitpick here, but Roy also ran down a mountain for 9 days. So Haley left roughly 4 months after the conquest)

Where are the other four/five months coming from?



Cliffport was more than four weeks away even if they managed to get horses, but Celia implied Greysky city was much closer, just past some mountains.

Well, I'm not sure until I start re-reading the comic. So I'll try following a timeline here and see where it takes us. There's bound to be a margin for error here.

(Disclaimer: I'm thinking out loud here as I go, so I'm not sure how the results will come out. But I'm doing it FOR SCIENCE!)

We start with New Years Day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html), by the Southern Calendar. I'm just going by this because it's an easy benchmark to use. Call this January 1st.

Roy says it's a two day ride to the entrance to the valley. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html) So they get there January 3rd. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0324.html)

Two days of walking back puts them in Azure City again January 5th, when they teleport to Cliffport. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)

Due to teleportation mishaps, they don't get back to Azure city until three days later, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html) making it January 8th.

Roy wakes up in the universe where long-running subplots get resolved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0401.html) on January 9th. That's the same day Shojo gets killed and Miko falls.

So the invasion starts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html) January 10th. This is the Day Cloister is First Cast.

Roy is dead for 103 days, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) which (when remembering only 28 days in February and figuring out the intervening months) puts us at April 23.

Nine days running down the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) puts us at May 2. Scrying on Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) starts the same day.

Celia gets summoned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) that night, and tells Haley it's time to leave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) the very next morning, May 3.

Now's where things get tricky. We cut to Durkon and the others on the ship, and when we come back to Haley, they're eating the birds V sent. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html). There's no evidence in comic to say how much time passed or how long the group had traveled from Azure City. We can't use the distance to the Oracle as evidence here, since Haley says they have to "turn around," implying they were already past the Oracle's area, and had to backtrack a bit.

Thus, the best guess for how long they had been traveling is how long the birds were flying from V to Haley. Celia mentions they were tropical birds that don't belong in this climate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html) So we can go by bird migration speed (http://nationalzoo.si.edu/scbi/migratorybirds/fact_sheets/default.cfm?fxsht=9), keeping in mind that magically compelled birds likely keep on a more direct course without detours and only a little rest. The ranges vary a LOT, but to go far enough that they traveled from tropical to cold mountainous regions, figure 1500 miles, which is right about in the middle range of the averages seen on that site. This is VERY rough, but hey, it's the best I've got. Most of the birds listed there don't go above 100 miles per day, and remember the birds we see V summon are small birds (not eagles or hawks that would have better fly speed). Call it 150 miles a day for "forced march" distance. That gives us an estimate of 10 days. 10 days of travel from Azure City sounds reasonable to me (though it could easily be longer).

That puts us back with Haley on May 13. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html) But since we know the Oracle was only two days from Azure City, that's a decent amount of backtracking since they're already 10 days out. However, Haley says they can cut through the brush to save time. Call it another four days back to the Oracle. They'd get to the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling on May 17.

Haley and Celia are getting along well because Belkar is sick. Haley asks "Why were we arguing so much before this last week." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) That means they reach Greysky City a week after the Oracle dies (and gets better) putting us at May 24th.

They hole up at Blind Pete's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), and we find out they're there for "over a week." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html) Over a week is a minimum of 8 days (one day more than a week), so call it June 1.

Next, we cut to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). We don't know if there's a time jump between Haley staying in the Thieves' Guild and when we skip to V. But we know she contacts Durkon with a Sending "like, days ago." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Since he said "days ago" not "weeks ago," we know it's not more than 14 days (the minimum number to count as "weeks" instead of "days"). Since it has to be enough time for Durkon and Elan to wind walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) all the way there from the fleet, call it 7 days. That puts us at June 8th.

June 6th is the minimum possible time to be free of the cloister (21 weeks from the fall of Azure City).
We're easily past that now.

And we know it's at least two more weeks after that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) when they're in the pyramid.

Therefore, even with very conservative estimates (Haley might have taken longer to get from Azure City to the point they found the birds, or from there to the Oracle, compared to these estimates, and we don't know how much time passed between the stuff at the Thieves' Guild and cutting to V), we're past the "minimum" time for the Cloister to be over.

September 27th is the time it would take to be free of cloister if Xykon cast it RIGHT before Haley left on May 3(and if he were Caster Level 21). But since Redcloak's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) says it's six weeks until the anniversary of the conquest, that puts that comic on about November 29th, which is well past the MAXIMUM time Cloister could have been on Haley.

In other news, I apparently have no life.

[The_Weirdo]

In other news, I apparently have no life.

And we're reading you! :smallbiggrin:

[Tock Zipporah]

And we're reading you! :smallbiggrin:

You'd better be! That took me over an hour!

[Mike Havran]

We know from Redcloak's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) that Darth V attacked them one week before Gobbotopia was established. So the attack was made 7 weeks before Anniversary, in November. Then, Haley was in Greysky probably during October.

So I don't really know what took her so long. Even if Greysky was in opposite direction than Lickmyorangeballshalfling and Haley needed to evade former Azure city, it's still strange that she spent the entire summer out there, looking for the path (the road is apparently just a week's worth of travel).

Edit: Also, props to Tock for her detailed timeline :smallsmile:

[RMS Oceanic]

To my recollection, the "timehole" - the period we have no record of how long has passed - is between Haley leaving Azure City and the Adventure on Orc Island. So it's more like she spent the summer hanging around the Southern Lands, possibly looking for a cleric but not getting anywhere until she hits on the idea of visiting the Oracle. All speculation of course, but what isn't on these boards? :smallsmile:

[Heksefatter]

In other news, I apparently have no life.

You may not, but I still enjoyed that post immensely.

[DavidBV]

Yeah, great post, Tock Zipporah :)

[Tock Zipporah]

To my recollection, the "timehole" - the period we have no record of how long has passed - is between Haley leaving Azure City and the Adventure on Orc Island. So it's more like she spent the summer hanging around the Southern Lands, possibly looking for a cleric but not getting anywhere until she hits on the idea of visiting the Oracle. All speculation of course, but what isn't on these boards? :smallsmile:

Yeah I was inclined to think that was more than a ten day gap. Add a bit more time there, a bit more on getting back to the Oracle, a bit more while staying at the thieves' guild, and all of the "estimated" gaps could easily be padded to add a few months total.

[King of Nowhere]

Haley left azure city less than 4 months after it was conquered. Now around 11 months passed since the invasion of azure city. there's more than enough time for the cloister to wear out.
apparently haley spent 6 months to get to greysky.
that's a long time, but I suppose it can be justified by her need to stay concealed, by having a corpse to lug around, and maybe by a bit of adventuring to raise some money.