[3.5->PF] Updating the Binder to PF

[Novawurmson]

The Binder is already a solid class that doesn't need much in the way of conversion (updating skills, remembering that bonus to attack rolls also apply to CMB and some bonuses to AC apply to CMD, etc.), but I'd like to give the Binder a little more spit-polish, namely in eliminating dead levels.

The only "true" dead level (thanks to PF's revised feat progression) is level 12, but there are still technical dead levels at 3, 7, 15, and 17. I'm tweaking the bonus feat and augment vestige progressions, but I've still got some holes.

What are some ideas for some new class features for the binder? Most of the things I'm thinking of are already covered by feats, and I don't want to absolutely flood the class with feats.

[CyberThread]

For those dead levels, let them get abilities to switch out bindings faster and more often, would easily replace those "dead levels" and bring the power of the class up dramatically, as it would increase the versatility, matching the pathfinder power creep.


I would give level 3 expel vistage as an ability not as a feat, and let it do 1/day and build up for each dead level , for things like 2/day and 3/day.

Also allow a rapid recovery and rapid pact making

[Novawurmson]

I would give level 3 expel vestige as an ability not as a feat, and let it do 1/day and build up for each dead level , for things like 2/day and 3/day.

Also allow a rapid recovery and rapid pact making

I like this. These probably should be base class features anyway, come to think of it...

I think some kind of minor skill bonus would be nice (a floating +1/+2/+3/+4 that can be rearranged once per day).

Something I thought of: A limited boost to augment, something like this:


Tap Connection (Su) At level __, the binder gains the ability to draw additional power from the mystic connection to her vestiges. As a swift action, choose one pact augmentation ability that you are currently benefiting from. You gain an increased benefit from that augmentation for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. You must wait 5 rounds after the ability ends to use this ability again. You can use this ability once per day at level __, and an additional time per day at levels __, __, and __.

Hit points - Gain temporary hit points equal to your binder level or your bonus hit points from pact augmentation, whichever is greater. These stack with temporary hit points from other sources, but never from additional uses of tap connection.

Energy Resistance - Increase the energy resistance to one form of energy from pact augmentation by half your binder level. If this brings your resistance from pact augmentation to 30 or more, you gain immunity to that energy type instead. You can choose to gain this energy resistance to an energy source you don't currently have resistance from, but the resistance overlaps (does not stack) with any source other than pact augmentation.

Saving Throws - A number of times equal to your insight bonus from pact augmentation, as an immediate action, you can reroll a saving throw. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it is worse.

Damage Reduction - Increase the damage reduction from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (minimum 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to negate an opponent's critical threat.

Armor Class - Increase the Armor Class bonus from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to reroll an attack against you.

Attack rolls - Increase your bonus to attack rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to reroll an attack roll.

Damage rolls - Increase your bonus to damage rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one half your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to

Initiative checks - Roll your initiative twice and take either result. Using this ability is a free action instead of a swift action and can only be taken when you roll initiative. This still uses a daily use of tap connection and prevents you from using tap connection again for five rounds.

[Psyren]

There is a 3rd party book that updates Pact Magic to Pathfinder. Their pact-using class is called the Occultist. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist)

I looked it over and their vestiges are really interesting. It shouldn't be too hard to port the WotC vestiges over to their system - a lot of the baseline mechanics like Signs and Influences and binding checks are still there.

[137beth]

The biggest difference with the PF spirits is that there are 9 levels of spirits/vestiges, instead of 8 like in ToM. The ToM vestiges can easily be made into "spirits" (basically renamed vestiges), although you might want to adjust some of them upward one level, to reflect the increased range.

[Novawurmson]

I've got Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic by the same publishers. I'm updating the max vestige progression to include 9th level spirits.

[Psyren]

I honestly can't think of any of the WotC vestiges as 9th-level - the existing range should be fine even if there ends up being a gap at 9th.

The one difficulty might be the constellation aspect, coming up with a constellation that aligns with the WotC vestiges.

[Novawurmson]

I honestly can't think of any of the WotC vestiges as 9th-level - the existing range should be fine even if there ends up being a gap at 9th.

The one difficulty might be the constellation aspect, coming up with a constellation that aligns with the WotC vestiges.

Well, S/VoPM include 9th level spirits, plus they add "anima" spirits that scale extremely well with spirit level, so there's value in adding it in. Plus, it means the Binder gets higher level spirits faster.

S/VoPM include several categories of spirits that lack a constellation (such as the aforesaid anima spirits), so I have no problem with leaving them without. Even so, I don't feel like adding a constellation to most of them would be too difficult (Acererak would probably be Ghoul, Andromalius would probably be Thief, etc.).

[Novawurmson]

Other changes I'm making/considering:

1. Adding Fly to class skills (they can get flying from class abilities, so I don't think this one is debatable).

2. Adding Perception to class skills (Not sure about this one as much, as there's always traits).

3. Increased the bonus damage from pact augmentation from +1 to +2 (to make it comparable to Weapon Specialization).

4. Increased the bonus HP from pact augmentation to +5 hit points (or +1/2 binder level hit points, whichever is greater) to make it scale better and more comparable to the PF Toughness.

5. Pact Augmentation comes at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 for a new total of 6 times.

6. Considering nerfing immunity to mind-affecting affects, as the spell "mind blank" doesn't even grant it anymore. Either way, it comes at 18 now.

7. Slippery mind applies to Magic Jar and other attempts to displace your soul at level 13.

8. Bonus feats come at 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 for a new total of 7. I'm a little worried it's an excessive number of bonus feats, but it is from an extremely limited list...

9. 2nd vestige comes at 7 (as level 8 is now fully featured).

10. The proposed "Tap Connection" comes in 1/day at 5, with an additional time per day at 10 and 15.

11. "Diligent" no longer exists in PF. Neither does "Investigator." Nor "Negotiator." Adding Alertness and Deceitful to list of bonus feats.

12. Expel Vestige 1/day at 3, with an additional at 11 and 19. The penalty decreases to -5 at 11 and no penalty at 19. Added an "extra expel vestige feat."

Edit: 13. The DC to bind a vestige is equal to 15+(vestige levelx2).

[Psyren]

Well, S/VoPM include 9th level spirits, plus they add "anima" spirits that scale extremely well with spirit level, so there's value in adding it in.

"S/VoPM?" What's that?

What I meant by my statement was that I don't think any of the 3.5 Pact Magic vestiges possess 9th-level power. (The non-epic ones that is.)

[Novawurmson]

"S/VoPM?" What's that?

What I meant by my statement was that I don't think any of the 3.5 Pact Magic vestiges possess 9th-level power. (The non-epic ones that is.)

Secrets/Villains of Pact Magic has 9th-level spirits, is what I was trying to say :D

[Mjollnir075]

IF you finish this up, will you be posting it in this thread, or a new one? This is something I am VERY interested in. I am teaching some friends DnD/Pathfinder right now with a lighthearted campaign, and I have peaked their interest with thoughts of some new classes I would be interested in porting over for a new campaign if everything rolls smoothly. This, TOB classes and Truenamer (with a fix someone posted on here a while back) are the ones that garnered the most interest by a large margin.

[Novawurmson]

Mjollnir075: I can post it here, sans non-original game rules. I absolutely adore your signature, btw.

HD, Alignment, Skill per level s, saves, BAB, and weapon and armor proficiency stay the same.

Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Planes), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive
-Note the above angst regarding Perception.

1 - Soul Binding (1 vestige), Pact Augmentation
2 - Suppress Sign, Bonus Feat
3 - Expel Vestige 1/day
4 - Pact Augmentation (2)
5 - Tap Connection (1/day), Bonus Feat
6 - Soul Guardian (immunity to fear)
7 - Soul Binding (2 vestiges)
8 - Pact Augmentation (3), Bonus Feat,
9 - Soul Guardian (slippery mind)
10 - Tap Connection (2/day)
11 - Expel Vestige 2/day (-5), Bonus Feat
12 - Pact Augmentation (4)
13 - Soul Guardian (energy drain)
14 - Soul Binding (3 vestiges), Bonus Feat
15 - Tap Connection (3/day)
16 - Pact Augmentation (5)
17 - Bonus Feat
18 - Soul Guardian (mental immunity)
19 - Expel Vestige 3/day (No penalty)
20 - Soul Binding (4) Pact Augmentation (6), Bonus Feat

Soul Binding - Same as ToM except change in levels additional spirits gained.

Pact Augmentation - Changed progression, increased bonus damage to +2, increased bonus HP to +5 OR +1/2 binder level, whichever is higher.

Suppress Sign - Same as ToM.

Bonus Feat - Diligent, Investigator, and Negotiator no longer exist. Add Alertness and Deceitful.

Expel Vestige - As the feat, only it increases in 1/day and the penalty reduces with level.

Tap Connection - Reproduced here for convenience.

Tap Connection (Su): At level 5, the binder gains the ability to draw additional power from the mystic connection to her vestiges. As a swift action, choose one pact augmentation ability that you are currently benefiting from. You gain an increased benefit from that augmentation for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. You must wait 5 rounds after the ability ends to use this ability again. You can use this ability once per day at level 5, and an additional time per day at 10th and 15th level.

Hit points - Gain temporary hit points equal to your binder level or your bonus hit points from pact augmentation, whichever is greater. These stack with temporary hit points from other sources, but never from additional uses of tap connection.

Energy Resistance - Increase the energy resistance to one form of energy from pact augmentation by half your binder level. If this brings your resistance from pact augmentation to 30 or more, you gain immunity to that energy type instead. You can choose to gain this energy resistance to an energy source you don't currently have resistance from, but the resistance overlaps (does not stack) with any source other than pact augmentation.

Saving Throws - A number of times equal to your insight bonus from pact augmentation, as an immediate action, you can reroll a saving throw. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it is worse.

Damage Reduction - Increase the damage reduction from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (minimum 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to negate an opponent's critical threat.

Armor Class - Increase the Armor Class bonus from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to reroll an attack against you.

Attack rolls - Increase your bonus to attack rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to reroll an attack roll.

Damage rolls - Increase your bonus to damage rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one half your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, before making an attack roll, you can choose to infuse your attack with eldritch energy; if your next attack hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit. If not, this ability is wasted. Either way, your tap connection ends after the attack roll.

Initiative checks - Roll your initiative twice and take either result. Using this ability is a free action instead of a swift action and can only be taken when you roll initiative. This still uses a daily use of tap connection and prevents you from using tap connection again for five rounds.

Soul Guardian - As ToM, but at level 13, slippery mind works vs. magic jar and affects that would displace your soul from your body.

Double check skill requirements for feats and prestige classes (for example, Supernatural Crusader should probably be reduced to Knowledge (Arcana) 1 rank).

New feat:
Extra Expel Vestige
Prerequisites: Expel vestige class feature
Benefit: You can use your expel vestige class feature an additional time per day.
Special: At binder level 10 and again at binder level 20, you can take this feat an additional time. Each time you take it, you can use your expel vestige class feature an additional time per day.


I've also got another new feat a'brewin' in my head.

[Psyren]

One of the things I liked most about the PF Binder (Occultist) is the acceleration of its pacts - i.e. it can bind 2 spirits at 6th rather than 8th level, and 4 spirits at 14th level instead of 20th.

[Mjollnir075]

Novawurmson,





Mjollnir075: I can post it here, sans non-original game rules. I absolutely adore your signature, btw.

HD, Alignment, Skill per level s, saves, BAB, and weapon and armor proficiency stay the same.

Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Planes), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive
-Note the above angst regarding Perception.

1 - Soul Binding (1 vestige), Pact Augmentation
2 - Suppress Sign, Bonus Feat
3 - Expel Vestige 1/day
4 - Pact Augmentation (2)
5 - Tap Connection (1/day), Bonus Feat
6 - Soul Guardian (immunity to fear)
7 - Soul Binding (2 vestiges)
8 - Pact Augmentation (3), Bonus Feat,
9 - Soul Guardian (slippery mind)
10 - Tap Connection (2/day)
11 - Expel Vestige 2/day (-5), Bonus Feat
12 - Pact Augmentation (4)
13 - Soul Guardian (energy drain)
14 - Soul Binding (3 vestiges), Bonus Feat
15 - Tap Connection (3/day)
16 - Pact Augmentation (5)
17 - Bonus Feat
18 - Soul Guardian (mental immunity)
19 - Expel Vestige 3/day (No penalty)
20 - Soul Binding (4) Pact Augmentation (6), Bonus Feat

Soul Binding - Same as ToM except change in levels additional spirits gained.

Pact Augmentation - Changed progression, increased bonus damage to +2, increased bonus HP to +5 OR +1/2 binder level, whichever is higher.

Suppress Sign - Same as ToM.

Bonus Feat - Diligent, Investigator, and Negotiator no longer exist. Add Alertness and Deceitful.

Expel Vestige - As the feat, only it increases in 1/day and the penalty reduces with level.

Tap Connection - Reproduced here for convenience.

Tap Connection (Su): At level 5, the binder gains the ability to draw additional power from the mystic connection to her vestiges. As a swift action, choose one pact augmentation ability that you are currently benefiting from. You gain an increased benefit from that augmentation for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. You must wait 5 rounds after the ability ends to use this ability again. You can use this ability once per day at level 5, and an additional time per day at 10th and 15th level.

Hit points - Gain temporary hit points equal to your binder level or your bonus hit points from pact augmentation, whichever is greater. These stack with temporary hit points from other sources, but never from additional uses of tap connection.

Energy Resistance - Increase the energy resistance to one form of energy from pact augmentation by half your binder level. If this brings your resistance from pact augmentation to 30 or more, you gain immunity to that energy type instead. You can choose to gain this energy resistance to an energy source you don't currently have resistance from, but the resistance overlaps (does not stack) with any source other than pact augmentation.

Saving Throws - A number of times equal to your insight bonus from pact augmentation, as an immediate action, you can reroll a saving throw. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it is worse.

Damage Reduction - Increase the damage reduction from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (minimum 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to negate an opponent's critical threat.

Armor Class - Increase the Armor Class bonus from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to force an opponent to reroll an attack against you.

Attack rolls - Increase your bonus to attack rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one quarter your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, you can end your tap connection ability to reroll an attack roll.

Damage rolls - Increase your bonus to damage rolls from pact augmentation by an amount equal to one half your binder level (min. 1). As an immediate action, before making an attack roll, you can choose to infuse your attack with eldritch energy; if your next attack hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit. If not, this ability is wasted. Either way, your tap connection ends after the attack roll.

Initiative checks - Roll your initiative twice and take either result. Using this ability is a free action instead of a swift action and can only be taken when you roll initiative. This still uses a daily use of tap connection and prevents you from using tap connection again for five rounds.

Soul Guardian - As ToM, but at level 13, slippery mind works vs. magic jar and affects that would displace your soul from your body.

Double check skill requirements for feats and prestige classes (for example, Supernatural Crusader should probably be reduced to Knowledge (Arcana) 1 rank).

New feat:
Extra Expel Vestige
Prerequisites: Expel vestige class feature
Benefit: You can use your expel vestige class feature an additional time per day.
Special: At binder level 10 and again at binder level 20, you can take this feat an additional time. Each time you take it, you can use your expel vestige class feature an additional time per day.


I've also got another new feat a'brewin' in my head.




This is excellent. I think it fits in great with the existing PF classes. What new feat did you have in mind? Also, have you any tips for any changes needed to 3.5 Vestiges? I know how to do the basic porting over work, but my mind for balance isnt as finely tuned as some. Any tips would be helpful.

[Cheiromancer]

The ToM vestige I have seen most often in builds is Naberius. Either because of the ability healing (e.g. in a Hellfire Warlock) or in a diplomancer build (no penalty w/ rushed diplomacy). It would be nice if he could be translated as a spirit rather than an anima. What constellation would he be, and what is his capstone?

Next to Naberius, probably Focolar. In ToM that is. Zceryll would be the main go to vestige otherwise.

[Novawurmson]

Novawurmson,
This is excellent. I think it fits in great with the existing PF classes.

Why, ty :D


What new feat did you have in mind?

Something like skill focus or a +2/+2 feat that can be changed whenever you rebind a spirit. Nothing too fancy, but I would like to make some fancier feats, too.


Also, have you any tips for any changes needed to 3.5 Vestiges? I know how to do the basic porting over work, but my mind for balance isn't as finely tuned as some. Any tips would be helpful.

So far, I haven't seen any that needs major work. Skill bonuses need to be checked (i.e. Paimon's bonus to tumble checks should instead be a bonus to acrobatics checks), and bonuses to attack rolls usually apply to CMB, while non-armor/shield/natural armor bonuses to AC usually apply to CMD. The only thing I can think of that the binder gets that's pretty hard to get in PF is pounce (from Chupoclops at level 12 for the normal binder, level 10 with Improved Binding), which syncs nicely with the PF barbarian getting pounce at 10.

[Cheiromancer]

One of the things I liked most about the PF Binder (Occultist) is the acceleration of its pacts - i.e. it can bind 2 spirits at 6th rather than 8th level, and 4 spirits at 14th level instead of 20th.

I agree very much. Binders seem to lose steam at around 6th level, due to having only one bound vestige prior to level 8. Having the second vestige (err 'spirit') come online two levels earlier is a big help.

I was toying with the idea of allowing one slot to be "split" between two spirits, thus allowing one more vestige to be bound than is currently allowed. Only one of the slots could be split, and there would be some penalty; the associated pacts are automatically poor, or something. That way you could bind two 1st level vestiges at level 3 in place of one 2nd level vestige. Or at fifth level you could have a 1st and a 2nd level vestige. Maybe an ACF could do this.

I am also unhappy with the Improved Binding Feat. First, it seems like an obligatory feat tax (like Natural Spell for a druid), and second it is a bad mechanic. Wizards don't have a feat to cast 4th level spells at level 5; why should Binders be any different? Rather, wizards have a weakened version of higher level spells. Dimension door instead of teleport. There should therefore be weaker versions of desirable high level vestiges (Zceryll especially) and the feat should be dropped.

[Psyren]

You probably shouldn't balance the class around Zceryll, as she is actually a bit on the high end as far as power goes. Zceryll single-handedly bumps Binders up a tier. If you could only have one summon out at a time, or if the summon lasted 5 rounds instead of EBL rounds then it might be more reasonable, but a Zceryll Binder can brute-force almost any challenge in the game by throwing enough of their trick at it - the very definition of T2.

[Cheiromancer]

If you could only have one summon out at a time..

This is how I would play it. Summoning another alien automatically ends the previous summons. I forget where I got this rule from - is there a spirit in SoPM that works similarly? Anyway, even if it is not RAW, this is how I would rule.

[Komatik]

One of the things I liked most about the PF Binder (Occultist) is the acceleration of its pacts - i.e. it can bind 2 spirits at 6th rather than 8th level, and 4 spirits at 14th level instead of 20th.

This still feels horribly slow to me, but meh :D

[Novawurmson]

I was toying with the idea of allowing one slot to be "split" between two spirits, thus allowing one more vestige to be bound than is currently allowed. Only one of the slots could be split, and there would be some penalty; the associated pacts are automatically poor, or something. That way you could bind two 1st level vestiges at level 3 in place of one 2nd level vestige. Or at fifth level you could have a 1st and a 2nd level vestige. Maybe an ACF could do this.

Actually, in Secrets of Pact Magic/Villains of Pact Magic, you can split your spirit slots into multiple lesser spirits, but most of their spirit binding classes can only bind one spirit at a time, and the class that binds multiple spirits gets extra levels of spirits to spend (it can't just bind 4 of its highest level spirits, for example).

[Psyren]

Actually, in Secrets of Pact Magic/Villains of Pact Magic, you can split your spirit slots into multiple lesser spirits, but most of their spirit binding classes can only bind one spirit at a time, and the class that binds multiple spirits gets extra levels of spirits to spend (it can't just bind 4 of its highest level spirits, for example).

Weren't those the d20/3.5 books? I think Pact Magic Unbound is the PF one (which combines both preceding volumes), and there are no restrictions on which spirits you can combine in that one. (There's some issue with combining constellation aspects, but those are explicitly stated to be the system's cantrips anyway.)