do sorcerers learn off the divine list?

[Korivan]

So a friend was telling me that sorcerers can learn divine magic. Specifically this rule is found in the players handbook and is not a feat. Can someone tell me where this is found in the ph if it exists.

[BowStreetRunner]

The Player's Handbook page 54 states "A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192)." Your friend was wrong.

[eggynack]

Eh, on page 179 it says, "With the DM’s permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of." It's a very fiat based thing, so I wouldn't say that sorcerers can just learn off the divine list naturally. You can also use arcane disciple (complete divine page 79) to add a domain to the list of spells you can learn from.

[blackspeeker]

If you compare info on the srd the wizard section says this:


A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
compared to the sorcerer:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

It's a one word difference, but I've seen people justify it to get some cleric spells on their list. So I guess you could.

[Slide]

So a friend was telling me that sorcerers can learn divine magic. Specifically this rule is found in the players handbook and is not a feat. Can someone tell me where this is found in the ph if it exists.


It's not in the Player's Handbook, it's in Complete Champion, page 52. At 5th level, you can choose an Alternate Class Feature (ACF) to get access to a domain power and the associated domain spells, just like a cleric with one domain. In exchange, you give up learning new spells at 5th level, and you trade in one normal spell per day of each level.

[Psyren]

Dragons can learn clerics spells with their sorcerer slots as well - that may have been what your friend was thinking of.

[nedz]

Or you could take Arcane Disciple.

[Sylthia]

The word primarily leaves the door open for divine spells, depending on your DM.

[BWR]

Rainbow Servant also gives you divine spells.

[Vaz]

'A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.'

From D20srd. Essentially, it is up to a DM. For example a Sorcerer whose backstory included a Silver Dragon you might allow to take spells from the domains that Silver Dragons can cast from (possibly if Domains get access to Sor/Wiz spells spells at an earlier level, then you may allow the Sorcerer to choose those spells at the Domain level). DM's don't normally have trouble with players take spells just from Sor/Wiz, but willy nilly taking spells from any lists without concern to the DM is a bit out of order, I personally feel. If you aren't doing something that is not explicitly spelled out or immediately obvious,then try asking your DM first and asking his opinion.

[Krobar]

I read that phrase "...primarily from the sor/wiz list..." to mean that he can also research and learn new spells. It would be DM fiat to allow a sorcerer to pick up spells from the cleric list, but if he legitimately researches it why not? He's awfully limited in the number of spells he can know as it is, so there's really not much harm in letting him learn a couple cleric spells. Especially if the party is short on that as it is.

I would let him.

[Flickerdart]

Sorcerers have some exclusive spells that don't appear on the general Sorc/Wiz spell list (Wings of Cover, for instance).

Then again, so do Wizards (Mnemonic Enhancer, Lucubration).

[Talya]

'A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.'



There it is, right there. I've commented on it before. Without houserules, the sorcerer can learn just about any spell from any class list. However, this is something that they should coordinate with the DM on, and "primarily drawn from the sorcerer list" means that these unusual spell choices should be an exception, not the rule.

[ericgrau]

I think unusual is referring to unusual spells that still match your class, from way back when it wasn't assumed you could grab any spell from any splatbook you wanted. Or from wizard foes you defeat with unique spells in their spellbook not found on any standard spell list, or ones you research yourself.

It's like when some smart*** hears "any" and immediately suggests something outside the context of the situation. "Help myself to anything in your home? How about the plasma TV?"

Likewise I think the change to "primarily" in the SRD refers to sorcerer spells that are not on the sor/wiz list, added later.

Either way allowing a divine spell now and then won't rip the multiverse in twain.

[Mando Knight]

There it is, right there. I've commented on it before. Without houserules, the sorcerer can learn just about any spell from any class list. However, this is something that they should coordinate with the DM on, and "primarily drawn from the sorcerer list" means that these unusual spell choices should be an exception, not the rule.

And note that it is marked with both "unusual" and "by study," meaning that a sorcerer can't just arbitrarily poach spells from any list, they have to sit down and learn the spell.

[Sylthia]

And note that it is marked with both "unusual" and "by study," meaning that a sorcerer can't just arbitrarily poach spells from any list, they have to sit down and learn the spell.

That seems a bit ambiguous for game mechanics. One could say one has to RP to earn it, since there's not a concrete mechanic given for getting divine spells.

[Invader]

Aren't the rules a little fast and loose with what spells a wizard can develop with the whole DM fiat thing as well?

[Talya]

That seems a bit ambiguous for game mechanics. One could say one has to RP to earn it, since there's not a concrete mechanic given for getting divine spells.

Minor quibble: They would never be "divine spells." Much like Cure Serious Wounds when cast by a bard is still arcane, Plant Growth when cast by a sorcerer is still arcane.


I think unusual is referring to unusual spells that still match your class, from way back when it wasn't assumed you could grab any spell from any splatbook you wanted. Or from wizard foes you defeat with unique spells in their spellbook not found on any standard spell list, or ones you research yourself.


There was never a time when it wasn't assumed you could grab a spell from any splatbook you wanted. If the book was published, and available for use in your gaming group -- if the spells existed at all in your setting, and were on your class list, they were always assumed to be available to you.

(I'll note one major exception to that rule: Lost Empires of Faerun is a spectacular book, as so much of that setting's splatbooks are, but it's particularly detailing magics and traditions and knowledge that has been lost to the ages, and generally should not be assumed to be widely known or available in the FR setting, even though it exists. However, if you were using the book as a campaign sourcebook, and your party learned the details on how to cast a particularly nasty cleric spell...the sorcerer doing the research would still possibly be allowed to learn it.)

[Stux]

While that quote from the SRD is interesting it does not give any details as to what constitutes gaining "some understanding of by study". I would say that it is not actually possible to learn any spell not on the wizard/sorcerer list without specific DM intervention.

[Psyren]

Approaching this from strict RAW is pointless, because "unusual" is not defined anywhere. Unusual for a sorcerer? If so, divine spells would be allowed. Unusual for a spellcaster? That throws out anything printed, you'd be forced to homebrew something. It's a contradiction, and so the DM must make a decision.

[eggynack]

Actually, the thing about most sorcerer spells coming off the sorcerer/wizard list could be interpreted as being in reference to sorcerer spells that come off the sorcerer list. There're a few spells, like wings of cover, that are unique to sorcerers.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, the thing about most sorcerer spells coming off the sorcerer/wizard list could be interpreted as being in reference to sorcerer spells that come off the sorcerer list. There're a few spells, like wings of cover, that are unique to sorcerers.
I mentioned this before. It's obviously not what they were referring to, however, because Sorc-only spells didn't exist in Core. Wizard-only spells do exist in Core, but the class entry makes no mention of Wizards learning "primarily" from the Wiz/Sorc list.

[eggynack]

I mentioned this before. It's obviously not what they were referring to, however, because Sorc-only spells didn't exist in Core. Wizard-only spells do exist in Core, but the class entry makes no mention of Wizards learning "primarily" from the Wiz/Sorc list.
I must've missed that post. Your point is a fair one, but I'd always figured that Wizard's was showing a surprising amount of forethought. That might be an unreasonable assertion though.

[Phelix-Mu]

As usual, the community's fine-toothed comb is magnitudes finer than the one used by the developers in the phrasing and coordination of the rules of the game.

[TuggyNE]

I must've missed that post. Your point is a fair one, but I'd always figured that Wizard's was showing a surprising amount of forethought. That might be an unreasonable assertion though.

Indeed. :smallamused:


As usual, the community's fine-toothed comb is magnitudes finer than the one used by the developers in the phrasing and coordination of the rules of the game.

Quite so. :smallwink: What do you mean, I said the same thing twice? I used different words and everything! :P

[Sylthia]

As usual, the community's fine-toothed comb is magnitudes finer than the one used by the developers in the phrasing and coordination of the rules of the game.

They need to keep a rules lawyer or two on retainer for that.

[Sponson]

Approaching this from strict RAW is pointless, because "unusual" is not defined anywhere. Unusual for a sorcerer? If so, divine spells would be allowed. Unusual for a spellcaster? That throws out anything printed, you'd be forced to homebrew something. It's a contradiction, and so the DM must make a decision.

"Common" is not defined either. Like, are all the spells in the sorc/wiz list common? Or are the spells commonly picked by all players around the world "common" among some subset of spells in the sorc/wiz list?

[Flickerdart]

"Common" is not defined either. Like, are all the spells in the sorc/wiz list common? Or are the spells commonly picked by all players around the world "common" among some subset of spells in the sorc/wiz list?
Or are common spells only those that are common knowledge or known by a commoner (none, in either case)? :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

There was never a time when it wasn't assumed you could grab a spell from any splatbook you wanted. If the book was published, and available for use in your gaming group -- if the spells existed at all in your setting, and were on your class list, they were always assumed to be available to you.

(I'll note one major exception to that rule: Lost Empires of Faerun is a spectacular book, as so much of that setting's splatbooks are, but it's particularly detailing magics and traditions and knowledge that has been lost to the ages, and generally should not be assumed to be widely known or available in the FR setting, even though it exists. However, if you were using the book as a campaign sourcebook, and your party learned the details on how to cast a particularly nasty cleric spell...the sorcerer doing the research would still possibly be allowed to learn it.)
One way or another it seems to be referring to some kind of special exception spells which by default are likely to be arcane. The kind perhaps only one wizard has because he made up the spell, or only a limited portion of wizards.

The ability to pick up divine or bard spells or such seems like something big enough that it would be explicitly spelled out rather than implied if it were so. It's too major to assume from half a sentence. That leaves "unusual" spells which you could not normally get and yet are still arcane, sor/wiz and so on. i.e., you go to the default until told otherwise.

I'm thinking partly of modules and 2e which like to introduce new spells. And player controlled wizards did so frequently as well. Heck a lot of the spells accredited to a named wizard were from Gygax's characters.