What happens when one of a pair of Ring Gates is immersed in Quintessence?

[unseenmage]

I asked this question elsewhere but had no takers. Understandable, it is a weird one.

RAW what happens when one of a pair of Ring Gates or Planar Ring Gates is immersed in Quintessence?

Either a) it functions just fine or b) the connection between the two gates keeps the Quintessence from ever truly enveloping the item.

I'm was planning on using Ring Gates to reach into a Quintessence sealed box but that plan is contingent on the answer to this question.

Thanks regardless Playground.

Edit: Question unanswered but workaround found, feel free to continue the debate as a theoretical though. I never tire of those. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

They're still on the same plane, so nothing.

You wouldn't even need to immerse one ring though, just keep it adjacent to the mouth of your quintessence container.

[Spuddles]

They're still on the same plane, so nothing.

You wouldn't even need to immerse one ring though, just keep it adjacent to the mouth of your quintessence container.

I'd suspect putting a ring gate in quintessence would put it in stasis, rendering the gates useless. Putting the ring gate next to your quintessence bag would be the solution, as you point out.

[Psyren]

If they had moving parts of some kind or required activation, then being in stasis would make one useless, I agree. But the magic is sort of always on, so I don't think it's affected in any way by time being stopped.

[TuggyNE]

I more or less came to the same conclusion as Psyren earlier, before anyone had posted (i.e., that ring gates don't care about stasis particularly), but neglected to post. So yeah, I think they work just fine. In fact, if you stuck both ends in quintessence you might argue that the usual lbs/day limit can't be reached while they're in stasis, so you can just keep shoving things through indefinitely. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

If they had moving parts of some kind or required activation, then being in stasis would make one useless, I agree. But the magic is sort of always on, so I don't think it's affected in any way by time being stopped.

Except the magic isn't always on. Both types of gates have weight limits, IIRC. Thus, the magic is somehow changing to keep track of the amount of weight that passes through it, and when the limit is reached, the normal function of the device is halted until the next day. If the magic can't change like it's designed to, then I'd probably say the whole thing doesn't function. That or the limit is just never reached (seems abusive, but, eh, it's RAW:smallcool:).

Quintessence itself is among the least well-defined of all of the ill-defined things that the game has to say about altering/slowing/stopping the flow of time. I know that they probably wanted to save the dreaded chronomancy for some Dragon Magazine article, but the whole matter deserves much better adjudication somewhere in the official publications.

[unseenmage]

Okay, so if the Ring gates keep working, and you can cast spells and make attacks through them...

Does putting only one Ring Gate into a Quintessence sealed box keep the Quintessence from time-locking the box?

Would the opening in the Ring Gate count as an unsealed section of the box's interior?

Edit:

You wouldn't even need to immerse one ring though, just keep it adjacent to the mouth of your quintessence container.

that is an excellent point. This discussion is definitely in theoretical hypothetical territory from here in. Thanks all.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm still eager to read what else the Playground has to say on the issue so please feel free to carry on. :smallsmile: )

[Spuddles]

Quintessence itself is among the least well-defined of all of the ill-defined things that the game has to say about altering/slowing/stopping the flow of time. I know that they probably wanted to save the dreaded chronomancy for some Dragon Magazine article, but the whole matter deserves much better adjudication somewhere in the official publications.

I've always leaned towards making things dipped in Quintessence unable to be interacted by things out the quintessence bath. It's essentially a null space, like a bag of holding, but in the time dimension and not a (null)spacial one.

[Darth Stabber]

The rings would stop their normal function and the carrier of the unfrozen ring, and all other entities withing a 10' radius would be subject to a slow effect, as per the spell only no save, no SR, due to the flow of null-chronometons from the frozen ring to the unfrozen ring.I pulled this ruling out of my backside, but it sounds decent doesn't it. Years of GMing for creative players will help with that

[NeoPhoenix0]

Personally i would come to the opposite conclusion. If a ring was in stasis and it got to it's max weight for the day, its time would never move forward to reset its limit the next day making it useless until it got out of stasis. just my take on the whole thing.

[unseenmage]

I've always leaned towards making things dipped in Quintessence unable to be interacted by things out the quintessence bath. It's essentially a null space, like a bag of holding, but in the time dimension and not a (null)spacial one.

And yet, it's my understanding that a Bag of Holding, like any bigger-on-the-inside container is just an extradimensional space which is in turn just a pocket demiplane. And as a demiplane it is exitable via Planeshift or Planar Ring Gates.
Not really a "null space" at all.

[DeusMortuusEst]

A related question that I haven't seen an answer to anywhere. Does magic items, or creatures with active spells on them, who are submerged in quintessence radiate their magic aura outside the quintessence?

[Nettlekid]

I think that the Ring Gate submerged in the Quintessence is never entirely submerged and enveloped, because part of it is connected to the Ring Gate which is outside the Quintessence. If Quintessence were to flow (does it flow?) to cover the submerged Ring, it would flow through the Ring and try to submerge the other Ring. Only until enough Quintessence had flowed through to shut off the Rings, or the other Ring was covered in a pile of Quintessence too, would they stop functioning, locked in time. In which case, they would stay like that until you picked them up, because the time it takes for their weight limit to reset never happens.

[unseenmage]

A related question that I haven't seen an answer to anywhere. Does magic items, or creatures with active spells on them, who are submerged in quintessence radiate their magic aura outside the quintessence?

RAW all Quintessence does is stop time for what's either a) immersed in it, or b) completely surrounded by it (DM judgement on whether surrounding eg a Quintessence lined box counts as immersed or if immersed but with air pockets counts as immersed).

So you have to ask; are magic auras emanating dependent on the passage of time? Or, when time stands still, do they emanate regardless?

[TuggyNE]

RAW all Quintessence does is stop time for what's either a) immersed in it, or b) completely surrounded by it (DM judgement on whether surrounding eg a Quintessence lined box counts as immersed or if immersed but with air pockets counts as immersed).

So you have to ask; are magic auras emanating dependent on the passage of time? Or, when time stands still, do they emanate regardless?

By asking these questions, you have already put more thought into this than the designers. :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

By asking these questions, you have already put more thought into this than the designers.

you think that's good? Try this on for size:
Step 1: Put an Alchemy Lab and a Dedicated Wright Homunculus into your Bag of Holding.
Step 2: Fill the Bag of Holding with Quintessence until it's about chest high on the Dedicated Wright Homunculus.
Step 3: Realize that the Dedicated Wright Homunculus isn't a "living creature" and so isn't harmed by partial submersion in Quintessence.
Step 3.5: Realize your Dedicated Wright Homunculus has access to both Alchemical construction materials and the ability to immerse said materials in time-lock goo.
Step 4: ?????
Step 5: Profit.

But seriously, I wish there was something that made this a useful scenario.

[Spuddles]

And yet, it's my understanding that a Bag of Holding, like any bigger-on-the-inside container is just an extradimensional space which is in turn just a pocket demiplane. And as a demiplane it is exitable via Planeshift or Planar Ring Gates.
Not really a "null space" at all.

A bag of of holding isn't an extradimensional space. You're thinking of a Rope Trip or Magnificent Mansion.


RAW all Quintessence does is stop time for what's either a) immersed in it, or b) completely surrounded by it (DM judgement on whether surrounding eg a Quintessence lined box counts as immersed or if immersed but with air pockets counts as immersed).

So you have to ask; are magic auras emanating dependent on the passage of time? Or, when time stands still, do they emanate regardless?

I would think that no, bounding something by time incidentally bounds it by space- Quintessence breaks LoE and potentially LoS. I would also think that magical things in Quintessence cease to function for things outside of the Quintessence.

RAW, though, I think a ring gate inside quintessence would still work.

[Jack_Simth]

you think that's good? Try this on for size:
Step 1: Put an Alchemy Lab and a Dedicated Wright Homunculus into your Bag of Holding.
Step 2: Fill the Bag of Holding with Quintessence until it's about chest high on the Dedicated Wright Homunculus.
Step 3: Realize that the Dedicated Wright Homunculus isn't a "living creature" and so isn't harmed by partial submersion in Quintessence.
Step 3.5: Realize your Dedicated Wright Homunculus has access to both Alchemical construction materials and the ability to immerse said materials in time-lock goo.
Step 4: ?????
Step 5: Profit.

But seriously, I wish there was something that made this a useful scenario.

The general way to profit off of Quintessence is to stick Delayed Blast Fireball beads in it for later use. Stockpile during down-time, fill a barrel, and when it's time to set them all off, just blast away some of the surrounding material to expose the beads.

[unseenmage]

RAW, though, I think a ring gate inside quintessence would still work.

I admit I've been leaning in that direction as well, so long as it's the sealed-box method and not the enveloped method.

Enveloped method would probably flow through the Ring Gate until it reached it's daily limit then time-lock the Ring Gate keeping it from ever recharging said limit.


The real question is, would the Ring Gate keep the Quintessence from working? Does the Ring Gate count as an opening in the otherwise sealed Quintessence by RAW?


A bag of of holding isn't an extradimensional space. You're thinking of a Rope Trip or Magnificent Mansion.

Okay, my bad. However a Portable Hole is specifically called out as an extradimensional space and it works on a similar principal.

A little off topic but, at our table, and after much Googling of the portable extradimensional spaces debates, we have portable extradimensional spaces adopt the time/gravity traits of wherever they're opened and retain those traits after they're closed.
This potentially leads to fast-time in a bottle but really, if you've already got access to fast-time then you've already broken something fundamental.

It also means that as long as you're careful with the portable extradimensional space your Dedicated Wright and his crafting supplies aren't tossed about all willy nilly while the thing's in your saddlebags.

On topic, it means that when an open Portable Hole is placed inside a Quintessence sealed box the contents of the Portable Hole adopt the time-locked trait when the box is closed and the normal time trait when the box is open.
Thus, my Quintessence lined vault (where I was debating storing a Ring Gate or two) is lined with many many Enveloping Pits for more time-locked storage goodness.

[Slipperychicken]

What the answer should be:

It rips open a temporal rift to the Far Realms of Madness (which is outside both time and reality) on the spot, shunting everything within 10ft of the rift into this bizarre hellscape without a saving throw, while objects and creatures within 30ft may attempt a DC 25 Reflex save to grab hold of an object (if a suitable one is within reach) to avoid being sucked in. Both Ring Gates and Quintessence are destroyed in this event. There is a 1% chance of a Far Realms denizen (DM's choice, but usually a Pseudonatural creature) being transported through the rift to the location of the ring gates.


What it probably is:

The item glitches reality, like a video-game suffering from clipping issues. Throwing physics a curveball, the item is rocketed in a random direction through time, landing 1d100-1 years in either direction (forward or backward in time, even odds of either. If the result is zero years, it simply falls back out of the Ring Gate harmlessly). There is a 2% chance the item lands outside the timestream entirely and in the Far Realms. In such a case, only a Wish spell, or an expedition to the Far Realms of Madness, can ever hope to retrieve it.

[unseenmage]

What it probably is:

The item glitches reality, like a video-game suffering from clipping issues.

This reminds me of my latest rereading of the physical description of Quintessence, "This substance shimmers like a silver mirror when viewed from some angles but is transparent from other viewpoints."

My first thought on reading this is that it exactly describes video game water effects as per Oblivion or Skyrim when you swim at the top and tilt the view down and the surface gets all screwey and suddenly the water isn't there and you can see the bottom of the sea for miles. Mirrored yet transparent.

It occured to me that maybe Bethesda games are all partially immersed in digital Quintessence and that's what's wrong with them. :smallbiggrin:

[almightycoma]

Oww, thinking about this makes my head hurt. I'm not sure if it's in a good way or a bad way though.

[Phelix-Mu]

And yet, it's my understanding that a Bag of Holding, like any bigger-on-the-inside container is just an extradimensional space which is in turn just a pocket demiplane. And as a demiplane it is exitable via Planeshift or Planar Ring Gates.
Not really a "null space" at all.

Actually, I asked about this in RAW questions, and I'm pretty sure the answer was that you can't plane shift out of a portable hole (maybe I'm wrong, as I asked the question several months ago and never wrote anything down). Curmudgeon was the one to answer, so you can probably get an answer from him again. I believe the justification was that there is some kind of distinction between the planes that plane shift can move between and the plane-like bounded spaces that constitute bags of holding and portable holes.

It's not clear to me that planar ring gates and ring gates can cover the full field of locations possible. Grey space that is unreachable by either seems possible.

[Nettlekid]

You can't Plane Shift out of a Portable Hole? I'd say you can't shift INTO one, since it's not a plane to go to, but the original location isn't specified, is it? Oh, unless maybe you need to be adjacent to the Astral Plane to do so, and the inside of a Portable Hole isn't. Hmm.

That reminds me, is there a listed, in-book way to get to the Far Realm?

[unseenmage]

Actually, I asked about this in RAW questions, and I'm pretty sure the answer was that you can't plane shift out of a portable hole (maybe I'm wrong, as I asked the question several months ago and never wrote anything down). Curmudgeon was the one to answer, so you can probably get an answer from him again. I believe the justification was that there is some kind of distinction between the planes that plane shift can move between and the plane-like bounded spaces that constitute bags of holding and portable holes.

It's not clear to me that planar ring gates and ring gates can cover the full field of locations possible. Grey space that is unreachable by either seems possible.

Okay, I think I have my thumb on the problem. it's an issue of terminology. The phrase "nondimensional and the phrase extradimensional are both used to refer to a Portable Hole while only nondimensional is used to refer to the other bigger-on-the-inside items.

Additionally, extradimensional is the only term used to refer to bigger-on-the-inside spell effects.
On top of all that, the phrase nondimensional doesn't appear at all in either the Planar Handbook or the Manual of the Planes.

I could be mistaken but this would seem to be the root of any confusion about bigger-on-the-inside items and spells.


I've always leaned towards making things dipped in Quintessence unable to be interacted by things out the quintessence bath. It's essentially a null space, like a bag of holding, but in the time dimension and not a (null)spacial one.

(I also couldn't find reference to this "null space" idea anywhere in either the DMG, Planar Handbook, or Manual of the Planes. Couldn't even find the word "null".)