Turning any class into a mini-psion

[mabriss lethe]

This is incredibly feat intensive, but I've figured out a way for any character class to grab powers of higher than 1st level.

What you need:

1. Hidden talent: This gives you a power point reserve and a manifester level alongside the 1st level power it grants. Nevermind, see below. However, you still need either Hidden/Wild talent or to be a member of a psionic race to make this work. You still need that PP reserve for some of the feats down the line.

2. Practiced Manifester: You'll eventually want to take this twice, but you need one iteration of it to get the backbone of this trick to work by bringing your manifester level up above 3. You don't technically need practiced manifester if you use a Host feat to get a Manifester level as it grows at a rate of 1/2 your HD. However, it would speed things up a bit.

3. Illithid heritage: It's a neat feat, adding intimidate to your class list, but is ultimately part of a 2 feat tax.

4. One other Illithid Heritage feat: Doesn't matter which one, it's just a prerequisite for #5

5. Illithid Legacy: By adding Read Thoughts, a 2nd level power, to your list of powers known, it enables you to take #6

6. Expanded knowledge: at this point it can nab you any 1st level power of choice, but we can escalate it further.

7. Illithid Legacy, greater: It adds Psionic Dominate, a 4th level power, your powers known, allowing you to use Expanded Knowledge to nab any power of level 3 or lower.

[Rubik]

Hidden Talent does not grant an actual manifester level. It explicitly states as such in the feat.

The host feats in CPsi, however, are a different story.

[mabriss lethe]

well, crud. I stand corrected.

Though it does look like the Host feats would, in fact, work. Thanks.

[Rubik]

well, crud. I stand corrected.Also, good luck getting enough power points to manifest all of those.

[mabriss lethe]

You can buy power points in the form of cognizance crystals, if you must.

Though you'd either still need hidden/wild talent to get a pp reserve, or be a psionic race.

[Nettlekid]

Why don't you just grab a custom item of Mental Pinnacle?

EDIT: Actually, are there rules of Psionic Items that work the same way as magic items which have like, 2/day uses and the like?

[mabriss lethe]

Because custom items aren't always allowed/available? Mostly this is just a thought experiment that I dug up while working on my "tricks even a commoner can pull" project.

Though looking at it, it does look like parts of this could be scavenged to let a Psychic Warrior get early access to higher level powers, since illithid heritage feats are all psionic feats.

[Waddacku]

Kalashtar's 1 PP per level might be nice here.

[mabriss lethe]

It also looks like a Kalashtar's Mindlink power would also be useful for making this trick work in the same way as the Host feats. If so, you could use a kalashtar and remove the need for hidden talent, the Host feat, and could even get by with without practiced caster.

And as wonky as it sounds, a Warforged with psiforged body could get some use out of it. (For whatever reason, Illithid heritage doesn't put limitations on the types of creatures it can be applied toward.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Athasian Humans (Dragon 319) get a free power of every level up to 4th and 18 pp for +1 LA.

[Prime32]

For whatever reason, Illithid heritage doesn't put limitations on the types of creatures it can be applied toward.For whatever reason, it is possible to be descended from a creature with no reproductive organs...

[shaikujin]

Hidden Talent does not grant an actual manifester level. It explicitly states as such in the feat.

The host feats in CPsi, however, are a different story.


Yo Rubik, would you mind explaining to a slow person like me how the interaction with Host feats work?

I read an older thread on optimizing hidden talent and forcing it to default to highest ML achieved, but I can't work it out with RAW.

Hidden Talent says if you have "psionic class levels", you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level attained.



Do manifester levels from a Psi-Like Ability count as psionic class levels?
What am I missing?

If this works, I remember seeing some other ways of getting ML=HD. Or maybe even using a Duergar.

[Piggy Knowles]

Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent can give you some bonus PP not dependent on any class levels, if that's a concern. But then again, two more feats added to this is rough.

[Rubik]

Yo Rubik, would you mind explaining to a slow person like me how the interaction with Host feats work?Wild Talent grants you two power points, which are added to your power point pool and which you can use on the psionic power granted by the feat. The manifester level granted is not in any way an actual manifester level, but when you gain a manifesting class level, your effective manifester level for the feat defaults to your manifesting class level if it's higher. It's still separate from your class level, however, though there's virtually no real difference between them. Since the ML granted by the feat is explicitly not an actual manifester level for any purpose other than manifesting the power, you cannot use it for any other purpose, including qualifying for (or benefiting from) Practiced Manifester, or for manifesting any other power granted by a feat or racial or class feature. The pp granted, though, can be used in any way you see fit within the rules.

Most of the host feats grant a couple of psi-like abilities usable 1/day (with the use split between both powers). According to the rules in the XPH, psi-like abilities are always manifested at ML = HD, and there's nothing preventing this manifester level from being considered as an actual manifester level for other purposes, though given that the psi-likes aren't considered class levels, and your regular class levels wouldn't grant you manifester levels without being manifester class levels already, Practiced Manifester wouldn't work with them, since you must choose a manifesting class as described in the feat.

Basically, the whole situation wouldn't work without taking at least one level in a psionic manifesting class.


I read an older thread on optimizing hidden talent and forcing it to default to highest ML achieved, but I can't work it out with RAW.It does that already.


Hidden Talent says if you have "psionic class levels", you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level attained.Yep. Hence my answer to the previous comment.


Do manifester levels from a Psi-Like Ability count as psionic class levels?No.


What am I missing?I don't think you're missing anything, other than the trick doesn't work without taking at least one level in a manifesting class for Practiced Manifester to springboard from.


If this works, I remember seeing some other ways of getting ML=HD. Or maybe even using a Duergar.Magic Mantle (from CPsi) + Supernatural Transformation (from Savage Species) would work if you take psionics as the spell-like to be supernaturalized. It auto-boosts your caster level (or in this case, manifester level) to your HD, prevents AoOs against you for manifesting, prevents dispelling, and prevents damage and other conditions from fizzling your manifesting. Otherwise, your psionics would remain the same (using pp and XP components, primarily). It's a seriously great combo for anyone who doesn't like AoOs and dispelling.

[shaikujin]

Ahh I see, thanks! So an actual psionic class level is still required.

But we treat the ML for the Hidden Talent as the highest ML attained.


Further questions if you don't mind:
This highest ML is applied solely to the single power granted by Hidden Talent, right?

I can't for example, apply that higher ML on the powers manifested by that 1 level of psion, can I?

Can Hidden Talent now be used to manifest other powers I have learned (via psy chirugery for example) ?

If not, it still means I need to have 1 level of. Psion, 1 feat on hidden talent + 1 feat for host (or some way to get a PLA). And it'll only work for the 1 single power granted by Hidden Talent.

I want this to work (ie manifesting a large selection of powers without Psion), but I need RAW justification in case I'm questioned. So far, I can only achieve this via psionic tattoos. Mental Pinacle would be another, but has it's own requirements.

[Rubik]

Ahh I see, thanks! So an actual psionic class level is still required.

But we treat the ML for the Hidden Talent as the highest ML attained.Correct on both counts.



Further questions if you don't mind:
This highest ML is applied solely to the single power granted by Hidden Talent, right?

I can't for example, apply that higher ML on the powers manifested by that 1 level of psion, can I?Eeyep.


Can Hidden Talent now be used to manifest other powers I have learned (via psy chirugery for example) ?Technically you can manifest a 1st level power, so you qualify, but only for 1st level powers, and only with whatever power points you happen to have. I'm not sure it would fly for some DMs, but I don't see anything ruling it out, either by the feat or the power.


If not, it still means I need to have 1 level of. Psion, 1 feat on hidden talent + 1 feat for host (or some way to get a PLA). And it'll only work for the 1 single power granted by Hidden Talent.

I want this to work (ie manifesting a large selection of powers without Psion), but I need RAW justification in case I'm questioned. So far, I can only achieve this via psionic tattoos. Mental Pinacle would be another, but has it's own requirements.Mental Pinnacle and the Soul Crystal powers (the latter of which is in Magic of Incarnum, and basically creates temporary power stones which anyone can use).

You really do rather need a psionic class, though yours is a clever workaround for getting higher level powers with a single psionic class level. Ardents can get higher level powers too, but you still need the level.

[shaikujin]

Many thanks for your answers Rubik :D


Cool, I looked at Soul Crystals before as well, and the Quick Potion spell.

One of the idea I was exploring was to cover them in quinessense and put them in a master work potion belt :D

Or simply line the potion belt with quinessense even.

That way, they no longer expire, heh.

Potions of spells of any level.