[3.5] Playable LA +0 Ooze?

[Thurbane]

I may have accidentally stumbled on a way to play as a creature with the ooze type.

In what I believe is a typo (but is RAW) the Hairy Spider (from Monsters of Faerun) is listed as LA +0 in the 3.5 update errata. (Fine Vermin, 1/8 HD, Str -10, Dex +4, Int --, Cha -8).

The Skitterhaunt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a) template turns a vermin type ooze. Now here's the thing - the template lists CR, but not LA. Is there an argument that it is an LA +0 template, or does lack of an LA entry default to LA --?

If it is legal, the Sentry Ooze template (Dungeonscape), will give you an Int score - but this is another template that has no Level Adjustment entry.

Thoughts? - T

Sentry Ooze Skitterhaunt Hairy Spider
Fine Ooze

Str -10, Dex +6, Con +4, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 11
Speed 10 ft
Natural weapon: bite 1d2 (+1d6 acid)
Special Attacks: acid spray, infest vermin
Special Qualities: +4 racial bonus on saves vs. mind affecting spells and abilities, blindsight out to 40 feet, ooze traits, sonic immunity, spell resistance equal to Hit Dice +2
+4 racial bonus to Hide checks, +6 racial bonus to Jump checks, +12 racial bonus to Spot checks

[Curmudgeon]

The rule is that you need to have a listed level adjustment to be a PC-playable race. Lack of listing is the same as "LA: —", as this quote from Monster Manual III indicates:
Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Plus you have to consider that "Far Corners of the World" article is from the 3.0 era, and thus the Skitterhaunt template is subject to DM adjustment.

[Vaz]

A template is not a creature. The templating rules in MM clearly state that if an entry for a template lacks a line stating it changes, then it defaults to the base creatures.

So, yes, the fact it lacks a line stating it changes LA means it has the same as the base creature.

However, you have to remember that Vermin are not normally intelligent, and so ineligible for PC's. In this instance, I'd certainly run it past a DM.

[Spuddles]

A template is not a creature. The templating rules in MM clearly state that if an entry for a template lacks a line stating it changes, then it defaults to the base creatures.

So, yes, the fact it lacks a line stating it changes LA means it has the same as the base creature.

However, you have to remember that Vermin are not normally intelligent, and so ineligible for PC's. In this instance, I'd certainly run it past a DM.

Sweet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

[Vaz]

Yep. Good luck with that LA+8 Vampire template, though.

[Curmudgeon]

The templating rules in MM clearly state that if an entry for a template lacks a line stating it changes, then it defaults to the base creatures.
Actually, it says that if any entry is missing it defaults to no change. However, what it specifically states for LA (on page 293 under READING A TEMPLATE) is:

Level Adjustment: This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

So, yes, the fact it lacks a line stating it changes LA means it has the same as the base creature.
... and that the (unchanged) level adjustment is meaningless because the adjusted creature doesn't have an INT of 3+. That's how a lack of listing in the template, in this case, gets you to a result effectively the same as "LA: —".

[Vaz]

That is applicable in this instance. Unseelie Fey is the same category, with no listed LA. The only way this template is playable is if you allow Vermin's Int-- to be playable (despite the LA).

[Chronos]

You all missed the part of the OP where he mentions adding the Sentry Ooze template.

Step 1: Start with a Hairy Spider. It's LA 0, but still not playable because of its Int --.

Step 2: Turn it into an ooze via Skitterhaunt. The Skitterhaunt template doesn't specify an LA, so it leaves it unchanged, so the skittery hairy spider is still LA 0, but it's still not playable because it's still got Int --.

Step 3: Apply the Sentry Ooze template. Again, the Sentry Ooze template doesn't specify an LA, so our sentry skittery hairy spider is still LA 0. But the template also explicitly gives the creature an Int score. So the resulting creature now has an LA of 0 and an Int score, and so is now a legal playable character.

[Spuddles]

Doesn't sentry ooze only get you 2 int?

You'd need an int boosting template. Dark might work; not sure if it works on oozes, though.

[Thurbane]

You could skip Sentry Ooze and go for Fiendish, which will give you a flat 3 Int, but it comes with LA +2.

Or you could throw something like Spellwarped onto Sentry Ooze, for Int 6, with LA +3. Nope, Spellwarped can't be applied to an Ooze.

[Pesimismrocks]

Feral is LA 1 but you get a minimum of 3 int. I'm not sure it can be applied to oozes though. Fiendish and celestial work for sure though.

[Darrin]

You could skip Sentry Ooze and go for Fiendish, which will give you a flat 3 Int, but it comes with LA +2.


Use Pseudonatural Creature instead (from Complete Arcane/Lords of Madness, not the Epic template). Int = 3, no LA listed.



Nope, Spellwarped can't be applied to an Ooze.

Have to change the type first. Half-Fey or Half-Dragon will work (and the latter also boosts your Int), but those both have positive LA. Corrupted By The Abyss (3.5 update of BoVD's Corrupted template, in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) will change you to Aberration, and I think that doesn't list an LA. However, given everything it gives you, it's hard to argue with any sane DM that it shouldn't have some LA.

[Spuddles]

Pseudonatural template changes the creature's type to outsider, unfortunately.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Use Pseudonatural Creature instead (from Complete Arcane/Lords of Madness, not the Epic template). Int = 3, no LA listed.

If you're running with this patently ridiculous interpretation of the rules, why not just use the one from the ELH? It doesn't have an LA, either. Might as well add Paragon in on top, while you're on it.

[flamewolf393]

Int requirements are a non-issue. Just say the creature got an awaken equivalent cast on it at some point in the past. Problem solved.

[Cheiromancer]

Step 1: Start with a Hairy Spider. It's LA 0, but still not playable because of its Int --.

Step 2: Turn it into an ooze via Skitterhaunt. The Skitterhaunt template doesn't specify an LA, so it leaves it unchanged, so the skittery hairy spider is still LA 0, but it's still not playable because it's still got Int --.

Step 3: Apply the Sentry Ooze template. Again, the Sentry Ooze template doesn't specify an LA, so our sentry skittery hairy spider is still LA 0. But the template also explicitly gives the creature an Int score. So the resulting creature now has an LA of 0 and an Int score, and so is now a legal playable character.

This is a very clear, useful summary. :smallsmile: The only thing lacking is a stat-block of the resulting LA 0 Sentry Ooze Skitterhaunt Hairy Spider. I'm too lazy to put it together - anyone else willing to do so?

[Corndog]

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where an oozing, hairy spider would be a viable PC

[Curmudgeon]

Int requirements are a non-issue. Just say the creature got an awaken equivalent cast on it at some point in the past. Problem solved.
Oh, goodie! I like this line of argument. So next time I make a level 1 build I'll just say my character got a complete set of +5 Tomes and Manuals from his great-grandfather's estate. Many ability problems solved.

[unseenmage]

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where an oozing, hairy spider would be a viable PC

Infiltrating a temple of Jubilex?

Negotiating with an Awakened Living Spell of Heal?

Murderhoboing in general?

[hamishspence]

Oh, goodie! I like this line of argument. So next time I make a level 1 build I'll just say my character got a complete set of +5 Tomes and Manuals from his great-grandfather's estate. Many ability problems solved.

Isn't it the same principle behind Savage Species's rules for playing an Awakened skeleton? The Awaken is part of making it playable in the first place.

[ericgrau]

But then why stop there? Why not say I'm an intensified awakened LA 0 creature and be a wizard?

The complaint is that the player is giving himself as much stuff as he want simply because he feels like it. And it is valid.

Letting players play an awakened skeleton may be a good suggestion, but you better come up with some strict RAW then. You can't go back and forth between abusive RAW silliness and good non-RAW ideas.

[Clistenes]

You all missed the part of the OP where he mentions adding the Sentry Ooze template.

Step 1: Start with a Hairy Spider. It's LA 0, but still not playable because of its Int --.

Step 2: Turn it into an ooze via Skitterhaunt. The Skitterhaunt template doesn't specify an LA, so it leaves it unchanged, so the skittery hairy spider is still LA 0, but it's still not playable because it's still got Int --.

Step 3: Apply the Sentry Ooze template. Again, the Sentry Ooze template doesn't specify an LA, so our sentry skittery hairy spider is still LA 0. But the template also explicitly gives the creature an Int score. So the resulting creature now has an LA of 0 and an Int score, and so is now a legal playable character.

How does a "not playable" creature even have a LA? It must be an errata.

[flamewolf393]

Oh, goodie! I like this line of argument. So next time I make a level 1 build I'll just say my character got a complete set of +5 Tomes and Manuals from his great-grandfather's estate. Many ability problems solved.



How does that even compare? The tomes and manuals would give you a HUGE boost. Awakening something just gives it the *standard* mental stats of a PC to be playable. Its a logical thing to do in this situation. An awakened LA+0 creature would have no advantage over a normal level 1 PC. I see no problem with this.

[georgie_leech]

Oh, goodie! I like this line of argument. So next time I make a level 1 build I'll just say my character got a complete set of +5 Tomes and Manuals from his great-grandfather's estate. Many ability problems solved.

If you're spending WBL on it? Sure. Is there anything preventing you from spending part of your starting wealth on having a caster cast Awakening on you?

[unseenmage]

How does that even compare? The tomes and manuals would give you a HUGE boost. Awakening something just gives it the *standard* mental stats of a PC to be playable. Its a logical thing to do in this situation. An awakened LA+0 creature would have no advantage over a normal level 1 PC. I see no problem with this.

For the record, Awaken also gives you +2HD, which means that there are no 1st level Awakened creatures unless you utilize a negative level adjustment, and to my knowledge there's only one of those.

There are also the Awaken Ooze spell and Awaken Magical Beast spell in a Dragon Magazine somewhere. Awaken Undead and Awaken Construct are in Savage Species and Spell Compendium.

The only one I've never seen is Awaken Aberration, much to my dismay. :smallfrown:

[Alex12]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a
According to WotC, a fiendish gelatinous cube with monk levels is legit. Go nuts.

[TuggyNE]

If you're spending WBL on it? Sure. Is there anything preventing you from spending part of your starting wealth on having a caster cast Awakening on you?

The fact that 1st-level starting wealth is pretty much never enough for the 450gp price tag? The fact that, as an un-awakened ooze/what-have-you, you probably don't actually have any particular cash on hand, and can't choose to pay anyway?

[Spuddles]

But then why stop there?

Because some people don't want to be jerks?
The same reason you make suboptimal choices and every build isn't a triple-9 phaerimm loredrake or nanobots or beholder mages?

I mean, if you're going to be playing D&D, you may as well go all out and play pun pun, right?

[georgie_leech]

The fact that 1st-level starting wealth is pretty much never enough for the 450gp price tag? The fact that, as an un-awakened ooze/what-have-you, you probably don't actually have any particular cash on hand, and can't choose to pay anyway?

Maybe not at level 1 no, but starting at higher levels isn't exactly uncommon.

[Thurbane]

If you're running with this patently ridiculous interpretation of the rules, why not just use the one from the ELH? It doesn't have an LA, either. Might as well add Paragon in on top, while you're on it.
Well, this is the same reason I didn't suggest 1/2 Illithid (Underdark) - applies to any non-Construct corporeal creatures, and adds +4 Int, +4 Wis and +4 Cha.

How does a "not playable" creature even have a LA? It must be an errata.
Ironically, it was the errata that gave it LA +0. :smalltongue:

This is a very clear, useful summary. :smallsmile: The only thing lacking is a stat-block of the resulting LA 0 Sentry Ooze Skitterhaunt Hairy Spider. I'm too lazy to put it together - anyone else willing to do so?
Sentry Ooze Skitterhaunt Hairy Spider
Fine Ooze

Str -10, Dex +6, Con +4, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 11
Speed 10 ft
Natural weapon: bite 1d2 (+1d6 acid)
Special Attacks: acid spray, infest vermin
Special Qualities: +4 racial bonus on saves vs. mind affecting spells and abilities, blindsight out to 40 feet, ooze traits, sonic immunity, spell resistance equal to Hit Dice +2
+4 racial bonus to Hide checks, +6 racial bonus to Jump checks, +12 racial bonus to Spot checks

[ericgrau]

Because some people don't want to be jerks?
The same reason you make suboptimal choices and every build isn't a triple-9 phaerimm loredrake or nanobots or beholder mages?

I mean, if you're going to be playing D&D, you may as well go all out and play pun pun, right?

It does not seem like something the player even has the option to choose. It's more like writing whatever you want on your character sheet and saying "oh such and such happened to me only 'cuz I say so" rather than exploiting some rules loophole.

[Chronos]

Everyone knows that the Hairy Spider really shouldn't have an LA, and that it was intended to be non-playable. This thread is mostly a joke that's taking that editing error and running with it, just to see where it leads.

[flamewolf393]

I played an sentient flying spellbook... I think a hairy spider is a bit more legit. As long as you and the DM are willing to deal with the issues brought up by the build (Like the spider having no hands to manipulate objects) I see no problem with it being awakened (for just the stats, forget the +2HD)

[Thurbane]

Well, there's a lot of RAW that's just plain silly...drown healing et al.

Even if we ignore the problems with using gear as a fine, limbless ooze I'm just curious - is there any templates that will boost your Int above 2 and not come with as many LA as Fiendish (barring blatantly outrageous ones like the above mentioned Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm))?

[Darrin]

Even if we ignore the problems with using gear as a fine, limbless ooze I'm just curious - is there any templates that will boost your Int above 2 and not come with as many LA as Fiendish (barring blatantly outrageous ones like the above mentioned Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm))?

If you don't like using Pseudonatural, then no, there isn't any other template that increases or sets Int = 3 with LA lower than +2.

Int-Boosting templates:

Half-Dragon is probably the easiest: Int +2, LA +3.

Once you've got at least Int 3, Phrenic can add another Int +2 for LA +2.

If you can switch your type to something other than ooze (such as Half-Dragon or Half-Fey), then you might be able to add Spellwarped, Int +4 for LA +3.

[The Viscount]

I find it extremely bizarre that the template mentions losing skills and feats one possessed by being a vermin, because vermin don't have any skills or feats.

Out of curiosity, could we apply mineral warrior, which is int -2 (min 1)?

[Thurbane]

The problem is, by RAW, Int 3 is the minimum for any PC (unlike most other scores, which can be 1 or 2, or a non-ability).

As the point of this excercise is to create an LA +0 (or as low as possible) Ooze, templates that change type (like Half-Dragon or Half-illithid) are a little self-defeating.

Not on my home PC at the moment (limited site access) - can someone post the relevant quote about PCs not having an INT socre below 3?

[Brains]

Not on my home PC at the moment (limited site access) - can someone post the relevant quote about PCs not having an INT socre below 3?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm):


The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable.

Is that what you were looking for?

[Segev]

Interestingly, it says "creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are not playable." There are several playable Undead and Constructs, which have Con --. This means that "--" is not, technically, lower than 1. It probably isn't, by extension, lower than 3.

So, then, let us examine the consequences of having Int --:


A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.Ability Drained has the same line, as well.


Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

So technically, it doesn't out-and-out, by the RAW, say that a Mindless (Int --) creature cannot be a PC. The fact that they're "automaton[s] operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions" does mean that there's no real way to play one. They lack volition.

The inability to gain feats or skills also cramps a PC's style quite a bit.


If we're avoiding Dragon Magazine material (and I generally consider it on par with 3rd party stuff in terms of likelihood of being allowed in a game), I don't think we have an Awaken spell that can target oozes.

This means we need to turn it into a plant, animal, construct, or undead if we want to hit it with a printed Awaken-variant. Skeleton or Zombie look like the go-to options, but both have an LA of --, not merely a lack of one.

So, as it stands...no, I don't think we're quite to "playable" yet, here, certainly not with a +0 LA total. Is there a +int template that might be +1 LA?

[Pesimismrocks]

Interestingly, it says "creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are not playable." There are several playable Undead and Constructs, which have Con --. This means that "--" is not, technically, lower than 1. It probably isn't, by extension, lower than 3.

So technically, it doesn't out-and-out, by the RAW, say that a Mindless (Int --)
So, as it stands...no, I don't think we're quite to "playable" yet, here, certainly not with a +0 LA total. Is there a +int template that might be +1 LA?

Well oddly enough, wotc believe that - is lower than 3. In a web article they had an example encounter with a fiendish gelatinous cube monk. Fiendish gives a creature a minimum of 3 int and the monk had 3 int. And I'm fairly sure templates are irrelevant including awakened as no ooze has an LA