About Vampire the Masquerade

[Scowling Dragon]

Well.....Whats so great about it? I hear about it all the time yet know (And have no will to research anything about it) nothing abut it.

Maybe you guys can explain it too me. Maybe I never found interest because I don't like playing as Vampires, and I don't like settings that are Dark too the core (From what I heard).

[Bulhakov]

It's popular probably because it's such a flexible setting. It can be used for very dark moody horror, it can be used for vampiric politics and court intrigues, and (as I most often play it) it can be used for superhuman action games heavy in combat (with all the different vampire races and powers, you basically play as blood-fueled x-men).

The system is pretty straight-forward and involves just one type of dice. Plus on strong skill checks you get the satisfaction of rolling a cup-full of D10 :)

There's also the compatibility with the rest of the world of darkness for lots of interesting crossovers with hunters, werewolves, mages, ghosts, etc.

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, good news is, Vampire: the Masquerade, or World of Darkness games in general, explicitly do not have universal appeal. Ask two White Wolf fans whether they like a given series or not, and you are likely to get two different answers (I, for one, dislike Promethean: the Created, and love Changeling: the Lost). So, if you do not like vampires, or dark settings, you are probably not gonna like Vampire: the Masquerade, or Vampire: the Requiem. And that's OK. You are not defective or anything.

But a brief overview: in Vampire, you play a vampire. Generally, if you and your sire weren't killed briefly after becoming a vampire, that means an ages old society of vampires believed you had something to contribute to them. Being a vampire, you are largely better than the humans around you in many things. Most vampires are faster and tougher as a baseline, with the ability to control minds, disappear from sight and shapeshift into animals being common powers. But being a vampire, you are also cursed. You can't go out in the sun, or even stay awake easily during sunlight hours, sure. But you are also notably inhuman, having difficulties even acting human after a while, losing the clarity and freshness of your living emotions and inability to see those around you as more than predators or prey. And you too are prey to many. Vampires are powerful, yes, but their society is a political one, and a misstep can be punished severely by those even more powerful, not to mention the threat the likes of werewolves or warlocks can pose. And at its most basic, a vampire will need to feed. Even the most compassionate of vampires will quickly accept that feeding is more important than anything else, and be progressively more willing to do anything to sate its hunger. Despite all this, vampires will hide their nature behind veils of romanticism, flowery metaphors and political power, acting as the nobility of the modern world. Whether you lose yourself in those lies and the rush of power, or are willing to bear the curse in the slim hope that you might one day regain your humanity is a huge part of most character arcs.

[BWR]

At core it's about three things:
- keeping the Masquerade up: how to keep vampires a secret from the mortals, especially when there are vampires who don't care about keeping it
- politics: with ancient, extraordinaily powerful beings with a strong herding instinct yet also immense ego and will to power get together and want to stay on top in society, politics is everpresent and deadly.
- chaining the Beast within. This isn't just a poetic name for the increasing ennui or lessening respect for human life. Vampires really do have some sort of internal monstrosity of a mental condition, howling to be let loose and turn them into mindless, slavering savages. Holding on to their humanity is one way of keeping this in check, of literally keeping their minds, and so much of what they do makes this difficult. Just feeding on humans can be difficult. The more violent or grave the crime, the more the beast's tethers slip.

So, in brief you have to juggle feeding and working (Masquerade breaches and Humanity lessening) with politics (trying to keep alive generally requires moral comprimises which lessen Humanity) and keeping your mind.

Given a decent Storyteller and decent players, this can be really fun. Given a not-so-good ST and crappy players, the setting doesn't work. One of the best games I've ever played was VtM. One of the worst was a VtM story. Interestingly enough with the same ST, the same players and the same characters.

Of course you can always play for laughs, just a bunch of superpowered monsters tearing through mortals or other monsters with abandon, but that isn't what the setting intends.

[Kaww]

In my opinion WoD as a whole is an excellent system. Simple, clean and depends on a good GM being able to provide a good story.

VtM reminds me a lot of playing high powered PCs in D&D. There is a bunch of mortals running around doing who cares what and there are the other people. Those that you, as a player, hunt, from whom, as a real vampire, you would run away faster than a hard core gamer from a level inappropriate encounter.

That said, vampires can be crazy fun, especially the Malkavians, again if you have a good Storyteller. Mortals are weak, die when shot twice by an able marksman and are, personally, infinitely more fun. Especially if you include some supplement books which actually give them a chance of staying alive.

In a mortal game we play a player actually killed a vampire. Eleven wounds with a flamethrower, you should have seen the Storyteller's face...

[BWR]

WoD in general assumes a certain amount of masochism on the part of the players. The setting is against you, your awesome powers are as much a curse as a blessing, there is always something bigger and nastier than you out there and the point of the setting is that it goes to hell, often literally.
You know you have a good group when the ST keeps throwing insane amounts of excrement at you and the players keep coming back for more. And every session we managed to dig ourselves deeper and deeper into the sewer (sometimes literally) and we had a blast.

Fun facts:
From experience, coffee is more dangerous to a vampire than bullets. (some fun soak rolls that day).

Also, nothing like your panicky bureucat soloing what amounts to a mini-godzilla (yup, my Lasombra took on a Mokole and won. During the day. I don't think I've ever rolled as well as that fight).

[Brother Oni]

Well, good news is, Vampire: the Masquerade, or World of Darkness games in general, explicitly do not have universal appeal. Ask two White Wolf fans whether they like a given series or not, and you are likely to get two different answers (I, for one, dislike Promethean: the Created, and love Changeling: the Lost). So, if you do not like vampires, or dark settings, you are probably not gonna like Vampire: the Masquerade, or Vampire: the Requiem. And that's OK. You are not defective or anything.


Further to this, each of the different games within oWoD has a different theme (which you can quite happily ignore).
For example: Vampire is about horror, where the greatest enemy is the one within; Werewolf is about defiance, taking a stand even though you know it's doomed; Mage's is enlightenment and about seeking/spreading truth.

The universal WoD system allows for some crossover between the different systems and they all have a mostly universal lore, with different interpretations of it depending on the system in question (a werewolf believing in the Gaea/Weaver/Wyrm triumvirate is going to see things differently from a vampire who believes he's a descendant of the biblical Caine).

The nice thing I like about the lore, is that which interpretation is correct, is entirely dependent on your Storyteller.

[Scowling Dragon]

Ok. Well thats comforting.

I don't get fun out of "Going Crazy and just killing stuff". At least with P&P RPGs because the system is too slow and chunky in my opinion for the fast adrenalin rush of carnage. I just feel bored when I try. I always prefer something more.

What does intrigue me is the "Depending of the interpretation is always right".

How does that work?

[neonchameleon]

Well.....Whats so great about it? I hear about it all the time yet know (And have no will to research anything about it) nothing abut it.

Maybe you guys can explain it too me. Maybe I never found interest because I don't like playing as Vampires, and I don't like settings that are Dark too the core (From what I heard).

What's great about it is more or less when it came out. In 1991 there was very little like it on the market and it more or less caught the zeitgeist. In the 1990s it was the second best selling RPG (and there was one month in which World of Darkness actually overtook D&D).

The system is very dated and clunky - but in 1991 Dice Pools were new tech (the first published RPG using them being IIRC the Ghost Busters RPG in 1986), and willpower as a resource and humanity as a statistic were both revelations.

It was also set in something that could pass for the real world which, at the time, was a massive novelty. Especially as the themes of the Storyteller games reflect and amplify real life. And they produced setting book after clan book book which people lapped up.

In short, it was ambitious, it was ahead of its time, and it caught the zeitgeist. Probably the second most influential RPG in history, combining the revelation that was the 1974 brown box and the catching the zeitgeist that was whichever red box that sold a million copies.

(The "Depending on the interpretation" is that each of the major White Wolf RPGs is officialy within the same world - but each of them has a mutually contradictory behind the scenes answer to what's really going on, and that's when the Mages aren't screwing with Consensus Reality (again) to change what happened, and with the idea the books are about as accurate as oral histories and the splats frequently contradict each other).

[Brother Oni]

What does intrigue me is the "Depending of the interpretation is always right".

How does that work?

As Neonchameleon said, in oWoD the truth is very subjective and that's if the Mages haven't been messing with reality or the teller isn't outright lying to you.
This applies to the in-universe chronicles as well, especially since they can be several centuries old and written by someone from medieval (or older) times.

The following applies to Old World of Darkness - I haven't played any of the 'New' setting.

Vampire mythology is based on the Christian Genesis, with the first vampire being Caine (of Caine and Abel) and the biblical 'Mark of Caine' has been interpreted as vampirism.

Compare this to Werewolf where three forces govern the universe: Wyld (chaos), Weaver (order) and Wyrm (destruction). Weaver broke creation by trying to control Wyld and the resulting fallout twisted Wyrm into corruption. By Werewolf's interpretation, vampires are just Wyrm tainted humans, something to kill on sight (which they're very good at).

Meanwhile in Mage, all supernatural critters are reality deviants which need to be suppressed so that humanity can achieve enlightenment (I think, I never got to play Mage properly).

All the other games (Changeling, Mummy, Wraith, Demon, Hunter) have similarly different and sometimes contradictory viewpoints, although Hunter is probably the least clued in and Orpheus appears to be semi-independent.
The subtitle of each system (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Mage the Ascension) is a very good clue towards the theme of the setting.

I highly recommend reading up on the White Wolf wiki if you want to know more.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well, good news is, Vampire: the Masquerade, or World of Darkness games in general, explicitly do not have universal appeal. Ask two White Wolf fans whether they like a given series or not, and you are likely to get two different answers (I, for one, dislike Promethean: the Created, and love Changeling: the Lost).

Pistols, dawn, etc. A self-demonstrating article is a self-demonstrating article.

Anyway, I think something that hasn't been mentioned (edit: well, no, neonchamelon did it better) is the historical context. Vampire was the first "big" game that made an explicit choice to focus on role-playing and mature themes and all of that good stuff. It caught on like wildfire and was massively influential.


Meanwhile in Mage, all supernatural critters are reality deviants which need to be suppressed so that humanity can achieve enlightenment (I think, I never got to play Mage properly).

Uuuuuuh, kind of. Those are the bad guys, though. Mage is basically about consensual reality, which is to say, the collective mind of humanity makes things real. Back when everyone thought the world was flat, it literally was flat. Mages are people who can alter reality by will and thought.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah, sadly, classic World of Darkness suffers a lot from the Seinfeld Syndrome, where concepts that were revolutionary when it first introduced them are simply very commonplace now, and have been done far better than White Wolf has.

[Scowling Dragon]

As Neonchameleon said, in oWoD the truth is very subjective and that's if the Mages haven't been messing with reality

HAH :smallbiggrin:

Thats how it works?

"How can all the viewpoints be true?"

"Because they are LITERALLY all true in one form or another"

:smallbiggrin:

Anyway yeah. Sienfelf Syndrome. Well now I feel like im not missing out on anything.

Im sure its great, I just prefer World of Brightness if you know what I mean. Makes it more tragic if it ever becomes dark.

[neonchameleon]

As Neonchameleon said, in oWoD the truth is very subjective and that's if the Mages haven't been messing with reality or the teller isn't outright lying to you.
...
Meanwhile in Mage, all supernatural critters are reality deviants which need to be suppressed so that humanity can achieve enlightenment (I think, I never got to play Mage properly).

In Mage, reality is based on belief. Science is true because people believe it to be true. And if people see things thought to be impossible, that backlashes on the mage that did it with Paradox. Each of the different Traditions in Mage has a different way they think reality should be seen - and alliances between these traditions tend to boil down to "Everyone against the one in control" because the dominant worldview will both be pressing down all the other worldviews and taking steps to make sure that things that conflict with their worldview don't get in the way.

In the Mage part of the oWoD the dominant power is the Technocracy which believes in the ability of science, engineering, and economics to work and to alter the world that way. Which is why science is so powerful - and even more powerful in the hands of skilled mages. The existance of "Reality Deviants" risks undermining peoples belief in science which, if it happens too much, may mean that things ... stop working. Things like computers. Or cardiac pacemakers. Or ... insert small, easily overlooked, and vital piece of technology here. Which means that there are two approaches to handling them. Bring them out in the light so they can be explained - or push them right the way into the darkness so they don't threaten things. (In the case of Werewolves that have literally terrorised humanity to the point that humans go into screaming fits when they see them, darkness sounds the better choice).

The out of power mage factions are a lot more friendly to the occult. Anything that undermines belief in science gives them more of a chance to upset the order of things. The Celestial Chorus, when in control, used to use the Inquisition - with the Enlightenment effectively being a reality-coup.

It is at this point worth noting two things about the Technocracy. The first is that their leaders are victims of their own worldview - it is canon that the overall leaders of the Technocracy are faceless and emotionless, and just carrying out their functions. The ultimate faceless bureaucrats. Because that's what that much belief makes them. The second is that the Technocracy, so far as I can tell, cares a whole lot more for the non-mages than any of the other factions. And almost every other group is about personal Enlightenment.

Everyone can use science. Not everyone can use divine miracles from the Celestial Chorus. Not everyone is a Dreamspeaker shaman. (That said, the Ecstatics would probably say "The more the merrier" - but not really care). Because of this the oWoD Technocracy has a habit of kicking puppies so they remain the official bad guys of the setting. And because the WoD likes its villains to kick puppies.

[Slipperychicken]

I just borrowed some sourcebooks for it (my brother's trying to get me into it). The game's setting seems like the rationalization for some looney conspiracy-theorist's paranoid ramblings.

[example ramblings]
"Aww man, the vampires are out to get me, man. Not just me but my SOUL man. Cuz you know I'm a hunter and I delved into the supernal and uncovered the LIE. Your WHOLE LIFE is a LIE the wizards want you to live. The wizards and the man and the secret government conspiracy made the lie they want you to believe, you're just a sleeper man, you're not really awake. Just gonna get munched by the vampires man. It's a Curse. All you can do is go on not knowing, if you figure it out you're dead meat and the world's gonna end. If you realize the TRUTH you'll just be like them, and if you live the LIE you'll go on being a SHEEP. You can't see the magic, you can't see the monsters. But I WOKE UP I SAW THE TRUTH IN HEAVEN. YOU RUINED IT YOU KILLED THE MAGIC WITH YOUR EYES!!! YOU CAN'T STOP THE MASQUERADE, YOU CAN'T STOP THEM IT'LL DESTROY EVERYTHING!!!!!1"

[Alejandro]

Our long running gaming group has tried various WoD over the years; in my experience they have not lasted long because only some of the players like the 'you're supposed to lose, in the end' flavor the storytellers have often used. The real world has enough moody darkness in it, I don't really enjoy it in my escapist hobby. But others may vary! :)

[Brother Oni]

HAH :smallbiggrin:

Thats how it works?


If the world view of Mages is correct in your campaign, then yes.

Otherwise their magic is due to the manipulation of other forces in the universe and their viewpoint of reality being enforced by the consensus is just their personal delusion.



Im sure its great, I just prefer World of Brightness if you know what I mean. Makes it more tragic if it ever becomes dark.

In Mummy the Resurrection, the main theme is hope if I remember correctly.
Edit: Sorry, it's responsibility. I think Changeling might be what you're looking for though.


Or ... insert small, easily overlooked, and vital piece of technology here.

I think my brother mentioned DNA being found in cells because the Technocracy wanted it to be found there.


The real world has enough moody darkness in it, I don't really enjoy it in my escapist hobby. But others may vary! :)

I like it as it allows me to indulge in things I wouldn't otherwise do (at least not without getting arrested) in a relative safe and mature environment.

[Grinner]

Anyway yeah. Sienfelf Syndrome. Well now I feel like im not missing out on anything.

Im sure its great, I just prefer World of Brightness if you know what I mean. Makes it more tragic if it ever becomes dark.

Eh...White Wolf books usually have extremely well written prose, but I've always felt the Storyteller system is a bit clunky for games focused more on roleplaying than gaming.

[Brother Oni]

Eh...White Wolf books usually have extremely well written prose, but I've always felt the Storyteller system is a bit clunky for games focused more on roleplaying than gaming.

Definitely agree on the good prose. I still remember the Devil Tiger intro story from their splatbook quite clearly even though I must have read it nearly 15 years ago.

I think a great deal of the issues with the mechanics is a result of multiple books and systems just being bolted on over the years until it was creaking under its own weight.
I still think it's relatively rules light compared to something like D&D 3.5 though.

[navar100]

Maybe it's just coincidence as to when I personally noticed the game existing, but my impression has been Vampire The Masquerade gained popularity, especially among women, soon after Ann Rice's "Interview With A Vampire" became a hit, book and movie. All of a sudden the game became all the rage at conventions and women promoted LARP versions.

[Radar]

I think a great deal of the issues with the mechanics is a result of multiple books and systems just being bolted on over the years until it was creaking under its own weight.
I still think it's relatively rules light compared to something like D&D 3.5 though.
For me the basic dice pool mechanic of OWoD was way too random. It worked great for magic, since greater risks=greater effects, but it didn't make sense for reliable skills. Fighting with a max pool of 10 dice should mean you can easily win against someone with half your skills and don't get me started on fumble rules, where a grand master is more likely to injure himself amusingly then a complete newbie.

I didn't have the opportunity to check the NWoD, so can't say anything about those mechanics.

Dice pool mechanic, which I actually like is the one from the old Legend of The Five Rings: you trow your dice, sum them up and check against a given DC. Before you threw them, you could heighten the DC to perform some extra feat like decapitation in a sworfight.

[neonchameleon]

I think a great deal of the issues with the mechanics is a result of multiple books and systems just being bolted on over the years until it was creaking under its own weight.
I still think it's relatively rules light compared to something like D&D 3.5 though.

It started off as moderately heavy. There are heavier games than D&D 3.5, but not that many of them since the 1980s.


Maybe it's just coincidence as to when I personally noticed the game existing, but my impression has been Vampire The Masquerade gained popularity, especially among women, soon after Ann Rice's "Interview With A Vampire" became a hit, book and movie. All of a sudden the game became all the rage at conventions and women promoted LARP versions.

Interview with the Vampire was published in 1976. V:tM in 1991, film of Interview in 1994. May or may not be coincidence that three years was about the time it was really breaking out.

[Scowling Dragon]

The relative reality idea sounds weird (But interesting). Does that mean that people hating each other LITERALLY makes them worse people? Does propaganda (Spells?) actually control reality?

That means that Twilight is actually a SAVIOR for Humanity from Vampires and wherewolves! As they start spontaneously taking off their shirts revealing chiseled hot bods all over the world!

Its a nice something for a story I think, but I wouldn't like too RP in one.

But eh. WOD just can't seem to interest me.

[Slipperychicken]

Does propaganda (Spells?) actually control reality?


The thing with WoD magic is that if you have an ordinary person who doesn't believe in magic (referred to as a Sleeper, because mages "awaken" to how the universe really works) looking at a spell, his disbelief will cause the spell to dissipate, and he'll later forget about it and rationalize it. This is a result of the "lie" or "the curse of the sleepers", which keeps reality working as expected.


An obvious ("vulgar") display of magic like a fireball will be disbelieved because it breaks with people's ideas about how the world works, and suffers harsh penalties in the presence of sleepers. More observers means more penalties, so even the strongest wizard can't toss fireballs at large crowds. Vulgar magic may also result in paradox, which is basically reality lashing out against magic, and that's veeery bad for mages.

A subtle working of magic, which can be easily written off as coincidence, like lightning appearing from a stormcloud during a thunderstorm, or winning a lucky bet, will not suffer a penalty because people believe such a thing can reasonably happen. However, if the same one is used repeatedly, or it undergoes closer scrutiny, it will look less realistic (more vulgar) and will begin to suffer penalties.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

don't get me started on fumble rules, where a grand master is more likely to injure himself amusingly then a complete newbie.

That was super dumb, but never seemed to fail to prove amusing in the games I played.

[Mando Knight]

And you too are prey to many. Vampires are powerful, yes, but their society is a political one, and a misstep can be punished severely by those even more powerful, not to mention the threat the likes of werewolves or warlocks can pose.
Ultimately, the Vampires' main prey isn't humanity... it's each other. Sure, they feed mostly on humans, but vampires' vitae is so much more filling, and one can't necessarily rise to the top of the pack without eating a few rivals...

...Of course, devouring a rival marks you as a potential rival to more powerful vampires, and they don't like bratty upstarts overthrowing their centuries-long dominion. So you usually need a lot of political savvy to devour the lifeblood of another vampire and get away with it...

I don't get fun out of "Going Crazy and just killing stuff".
VtM isn't necessarily played like that. The default assumption, insofar as I've found, is more of one of survival: you are a nocturnal predator with significant weaknesses and a hostile environment. Gather favor with those more powerful or better connected than you, while at the same time remaining hidden in plain sight from both the herds of sometimes-panicky chattel you feed upon and the fellow predators seeking your demise for their gain.

Going crazy and just killing stuff usually happens when you fail at being a competent vampire, and do things that put you at risk at being taken over by the Beast that lives in your undead soul...

[Brother Oni]

So you usually need a lot of political savvy to devour the lifeblood of another vampire and get away with it...

Or just be Sabbat. :smalltongue:

[Cerlis]

when reading about werewolf i actually read something i was disappointed to see wasnt in the system.

In Vamp (apparently), each vampire has a vice and a virtue. Essentially one thing that has a particular chance of driving them over the edge, and one thing that they use to hold onto sanity and control.

I imagined it would be very fun to have a tight nit group of vampires who each have their own great weakness but keep each other in check.


A subtle working of magic, which can be easily written off as coincidence, like lightning appearing from a stormcloud during a thunderstorm, or winning a lucky bet, will not suffer a penalty because people believe such a thing can reasonably happen. However, if the same one is used repeatedly, or it undergoes closer scrutiny, it will look less realistic (more vulgar) and will begin to suffer penalties.
__________________

I imagine a group talking about fighting a big nasty and fretting that they cant use their big guns and wondering what to do, when thunder is heard in the background and one of them gets a big wicked grin.

[Eldan]

One thing to keep in mind with White Wolf is that unlike D&D, their games are very much written with one single, well-developed setting in mind. D&D is meant ot run Greyhawk, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Mystara, Planescape and the Star Wars parody your DM wrote in a bar last Saturday. White Wolf games usually very strongly have a single world in mind and I'm reasonably sure thy wrote their worlds before their rules. If you don't like those worlds and themes, their game probably won't do much for you.

I quite like the background to a few of the games (Changeling and Mage for me, personally), though I haven't ever really had a chance to play any beyond a very short game of Vampire once.

[Brother Oni]

when reading about werewolf i actually read something i was disappointed to see wasnt in the system.

In Vamp (apparently), each vampire has a vice and a virtue. Essentially one thing that has a particular chance of driving them over the edge, and one thing that they use to hold onto sanity and control.

I imagined it would be very fun to have a tight nit group of vampires who each have their own great weakness but keep each other in check.

The problem is that garou just simply don't suffer the same sort of psychological issues that kindred do. Essentially they boil down to a very simple thought process - Is this thing against Gaia? Yes - kill, No - maybe kill.
In my game, they got referred to as eco-terrorists due to their singleminded devotion to protecting the Earth and the way that cause justified anything they did.

As for vampires keeping each other in check, look up Kuei-jin (oriental vampires), who keep themselves in check between their rational mind (Hun) and their base desires (P'o, which is an upgraded version of the kindred Beast with its own personality).

[CombatOwl]

The relative reality idea sounds weird (But interesting). Does that mean that people hating each other LITERALLY makes them worse people? Does propaganda (Spells?) actually control reality?

Yes, for mages. To use a canon (and notably debated) example, the technocracy invented money. As in the concept of using currency to buy things. That only happens because the technocratic paradigm demands it. Among other things attributed to the technocracy; the existence of atoms, the existence of cells, the existence of gravity, and the existence of thermodynamics. Oh, and democracy.

One of the more excessive examples notes that electromagnetism only exists in WOD because a technocratic arch-master willed it into existence with Science! Before then there was no relationship between electricity and magnetism in the WOD.

The whole technocratic faction is rooted in the idea that propaganda actually does control the consensus reality of Mage. Their use of science and technology is rooted in that desire to control how the world works--they spread scientific ideas so aggressively because everyone believing in them actually makes those things real. Conversely, people believing in other things makes those scientific principles less real. Therefore, they kill (or "recondition") mages and other "reality deviants."

It gets very, very strange. It's a fun game, but there is a certain amount of madness required to wrap your head around Mage characters.

[Saito Takuji]

basically everyone in oWOD (from the mage viewpoint anyways) is verry simmilar to orks in WH40k in that belief makes it real.

if you believe clapping your hads brings back faeries to life, then for you it does, but if someone else belives clapping thier hands can cause machines to fail then it does for them.

[TheCountAlucard]

That's a dangerously simplistic way of looking at it.

[navar100]

basically everyone in oWOD (from the mage viewpoint anyways) is verry simmilar to orks in WH40k in that belief makes it real.

if you believe clapping your hads brings back faeries to life, then for you it does, but if someone else belives clapping thier hands can cause machines to fail then it does for them.

Does clapping your hands mean you know you're happy and want to show it or are you happy because you showed clapping your hands?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Can't you pretty much not kill a mummy no-matter what you believe? I remember that you could totally atomize the corpse of a mummy and instead of being for real dead, it would just turn into an unkillable ghost that didn't take crap from Oblivion, much less some two-bit conjurer of cheap tricks.

Mummy: The Resurrection was so cool.

[Brother Oni]

Can't you pretty much not kill a mummy no-matter what you believe? I remember that you could totally atomize the corpse of a mummy and instead of being for real dead, it would just turn into an unkillable ghost that didn't take crap from Oblivion, much less some two-bit conjurer of cheap tricks.

Mummy: The Resurrection was so cool.

I think high level mages could bind it with certain spheres so that when the body is atomised, the spirit is captured which the mage could then keep as a mantelpiece ornament (Life and another one I think).

I'm fairly sure other powers could be substituted (Chi'i Muh for Kuei-jin, some thaumaturgy for Kindred), and mummys don't have the raw grunt to go toe to toe to dedicated combat machines like the garou (then again, not many things do).

I like the M:tR lore and mechanics, but I've been told they don't match up well with the other oWoD heavy hitters.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I thought you needed some kind of weird anti-magic or something super-obscure, but I might be remembering wrong.

I haven't read the rules in too long to really say how they would hold up against other heavy-hitters (although, I mean, yeah, garou are garou), but I remember not having too much trouble running them alongside vampires.

[Aron Times]

I find Mage: the Ascension to be more morally ambiguous than Mage: the Awakening. The bad guys of Ascension really do have a point, and their dominance is the reason why normal people get to live relatively normal lives. A world dominated by the Traditions would be nice for mages, but not so much for Average Joe and Plain Jane.

On the flip side, I find Masquerade's overabundance of high level characters terrible for actual play, and many ST's used them to railroad their players. It didn't help that White Wolf back then was quite different from what they are now, and actively encouraged railroading the game more than once. The Samuel Haight fiasco is a big example of officially encouraged railroading.

Thankfully, the nWoD setting is much less railroady, having been written by a more mature and experienced White Wolf. The nWoD is currently on its second edition, named the God Machine rules update. However, this is a topic for another thread, so I'll leave it at that.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

From what I've seen, I really wish they'd made a lot of the changes they did in nWoD while keeping more of the oWoD fluff. A lot of stuff seems improved, at least at first glance, but the idea of a world (of darkness) without Malkies and Brujah and so on doesn't seem quite right.

[TheCountAlucard]

Malks and Brujah were reintroduced to VtR in the core book.

[The Glyphstone]

Malks and Brujah were reintroduced to VtR in the core book.

It's WW's fault for reusing so much terminology. OWoD players are used to 'Clan' being a character-package-in-a-box, with Disciplines, history, notable NPCs, stereotypical behaviors, and even default character builds all standardized for the clan. NWoD uses 'Clan' for Disciplines and vague stereotypes only, and introduces 'Bloodlines' as sub-clans for the history+NPCs+flavor that came standard to OWoD clans, where an OWoD Bloodline was just a Clan-by-a-different-name that claimed ancestry from a 'real' Clan.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Well, that's what I get for skimming.

Did something similar happen with garou, where most of the old stuff still exists, just not under the same terms since those now mean different things, or is the Werewolf fluff actually as different as it seems?

[Aron Times]

This is where I learned most of my nWoD lore:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/NewWorldOfDarkness

[Scowling Dragon]

This is where I learned most of my nWoD lore:

http:// tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/NewWorldOfDarkness

Huh. This changed my view of the setting a complete 180. A Dark setting where Humans AREN'T just cattle and there ISN'T a billion apocalypses meaning that I can actually get invested in the setting? How novel! seriously though sounds nice.

Maybe will check it out now.

[Brother Oni]

Huh. This changed my view of the setting a complete 180. A Dark setting where Humans AREN'T just cattle and there ISN'T a billion apocalypses meaning that I can actually get invested in the setting? How novel! seriously though sounds nice.

Maybe will check it out now.

You are aware that the Vampire the Masquerade and Vampire the Redemption are two separate games? And that V:tR, being new World of Darkness, is incompatible with V:tM which is old World of Darkness, as they have significantly different settings?

Even in oWoD, humanity fights back rather effectively, from Hunters, to Shih (oriental monster hunters) to Mages, who are just awakened humans.

[BWR]

I'm not sure you can count mages as 'just' awakened humans. They are not mere mortals anymore. They are movers and shakers and the kind of people all other supernatural beings advise newbs to stay well away from.
They might have the most human starting point, apart from Hunters, but they don't necessarily stay that way for long.

[Longes]

Well, that's what I get for skimming.

Did something similar happen with garou, where most of the old stuff still exists, just not under the same terms since those now mean different things, or is the Werewolf fluff actually as different as it seems?

New Werewolf is very different from the Old Werewolf, just like everything else is. No Wyrm, no Pentex, no fighting the Man.

[EriktheRed]

Generally, i like the new world of darkness system better than the old world of darkness system. I also very much prefer nWoD Changeling to oWoD Changeling, as well as new Mage compared to old Mage.

[Cerlis]

The problem is that garou just simply don't suffer the same sort of psychological issues that kindred do. Essentially they boil down to a very simple thought process - Is this thing against Gaia? Yes - kill, No - maybe kill.
In my game, they got referred to as eco-terrorists due to their singleminded devotion to protecting the Earth and the way that cause justified anything they did.

As for vampires keeping each other in check, look up Kuei-jin (oriental vampires), who keep themselves in check between their rational mind (Hun) and their base desires (P'o, which is an upgraded version of the kindred Beast with its own personality).

Eh, sounds like you are mixing DnD with the fact that SOME tribes are very violent and when it comes to powerful rage filled monsters that have a hard time killing each other, that a difference of opinion often results in violence.

Seems like it would be a quick fix to have a vice and virtue as things that risk a Garou going berserk, and something that helps them keep control. respectively

[Brother Oni]

Eh, sounds like you are mixing DnD with the fact that SOME tribes are very violent and when it comes to powerful rage filled monsters that have a hard time killing each other, that a difference of opinion often results in violence.

With the sometimes exception of Gangrel, kindred are pretty much kill on sight by garou, so I wouldn't call it too much of a stretch.



Seems like it would be a quick fix to have a vice and virtue as things that risk a Garou going berserk, and something that helps them keep control. respectively

Kindred don't use the Vice system (they have enough problems as it is) and I think you might have misunderstood what is meant by Virtue.

In the oWoD system, Virtue refers to spiritual and personal integrity and what it models is entirely dependent on the system in question.
Vampire uses Conscience, Self Control and Courage, which are used for the secondary characteristics of Willpower and Humanity.

These various traits are used to stop themselves falling to the Beast and going mindlessly berserk. Falling to the Beast means you become uncontrollable and will fight or flee whatever the trigger was.
It also usually entails a loss in Humanity, which makes it harder to resist the Beast later, and dropping to 0 Humanity means you've lost your mind entirely and effectively become a NPC.

Garou don't have to bother with ANY of this (they don't use Virtues and going berserk with Rage is typically a good thing for them), hence my comment.
If you want to house rule a system, then feel free - it's your game.

Edit: Just realised, are you referring to the virtues and vices of the nature/demeanour Archetype mechanic? That's more a quick guide for a character roleplaying and while it has a small mechanical bonus, it's certainly not something to rely on.
Garou don't really use the Archetype mechanic - their roleplaying bonuses are granted from following their auspice (which phase of the moon they were born under).

[TheCountAlucard]

DMPCWrong terminology, there. You become an NPC; if you became the ST's let character after falling to the Beast, it'd be even more dreaded. :smalltongue:

[Brother Oni]

Wrong terminology, there. You become an NPC; if you became the ST's let character after falling to the Beast, it'd be even more dreaded. :smalltongue:

Ooops, I'll correct that.

It's probably just me being used to my ST describing what my characters did while in the midst of P'o induced rage.

[SaurOps]

New Werewolf is very different from the Old Werewolf, just like everything else is. No Wyrm, no Pentex, no fighting the Man.

Still involves spirit warriors inheriting a thankless duty and often dying in the line of fire and being forbidden from forming intimate relationships with one another. Only, the werewolves cribbed the problems that the Mokole had in pairing together. Their war form may be more of a snore form, but they still have an array of five forms that accomplish about the same things as the old five forms.

[Longes]

Still involves spirit warriors inheriting a thankless duty and often dying in the line of fire and being forbidden from forming intimate relationships with one another. Only, the werewolves cribbed the problems that the Mokole had in pairing together. Their war form may be more of a snore form, but they still have an array of five forms that accomplish about the same things as the old five forms.

Well "Spirit is kind of an ass, and we need to tore off his arms as a warning and then go out for a beer" is kind of different from "Evil corporation of Evil is kind of an ass, and we need to make a guerilla war against them, row row fight da powah!"

[SaurOps]

Well "Spirit is kind of an ass, and we need to tore off his arms as a warning and then go out for a beer" is kind of different from "Evil corporation of Evil is kind of an ass, and we need to make a guerilla war against them, row row fight da powah!"

You'll be doing the former and latter in Apocalypse, whereas Forsaken is almost always the former. The people who worked on Forsaken have stated point blank that it is a refinement of material that shows up in Apocalypse. We can also see that they shaved off an awful lot. It's like W:tA, without an awful lot of everything.