Confused About Divine Rank 0

[Sugashane]

For deities it seems that a minimum stat array is 35, 31, 25, 24, 24, 24 plus 1 per 4 levels. Even in Deities and Demigods it shows more than that for Imhotep, who is only a level 20 expert, so he has 3 more point attributed to INT in some manner, be it race, magical or using rolled modifiers and porting them to the new array (like he was a 10 or 11 on all but INT which was a 16-17 when he ascended).

But they did a poor job in referring to rank 0 deities especially in the book. Does anyone know if quasi-deities get any bonuses to their ability scores or if this or similar array is granted? Or do these only come into effect when one hits the divine rank of at least 1?

[137beth]

The higher-than-normal ability scores you are seeing for the gods are not coming from divine ranks. Basically, it is implied that even without divine powers, most gods deities are already very powerful outsiders. You'll notice, also, that almost all of them are listed as having 20 racial hit-dice. The high ability scores are just because they happen to have higher ability scores than humans. They are unique outsiders, so there is no "standard" ability score for their species.

[Sugashane]

See that is something that confuses me. Vecna and St. Cuthbert are just two more examples other than Imhotep of ascended beings that have this as well. And if they were mortal and had those stats then there was some serious manipulation to be able to do so.

I'm not saying I'm right or anyone else is wrong, I'm just sure there are several opinions on this and hoping someone will have any detail on it. Or how they ruled in their own games as well. I am still surprised there has not been errata on this as they have monsters that are as powerful or more powerful than deities in the Epic Level Handbook.

[dascarletm]

See that is something that confuses me. Vecna and St. Cuthbert are just two more examples other than Imhotep of ascended beings that have this as well. And if they were mortal and had those stats then there was some serious manipulation to be able to do so.

I'm not saying I'm right or anyone else is wrong, I'm just sure there are several opinions on this and hoping someone will have any detail on it. Or how they ruled in their own games as well. I am still surprised there has not been errata on this as they have monsters that are as powerful or more powerful than deities in the Epic Level Handbook.

The thing is NPC's and monsters are not necessarily bound to the same rules as players. You could have a level one commoner in a module/setting with 30 int. He was just born a super genius.

[Clistenes]

What I really want to know is how did St Cuthbert got those 20 Outsider Hit Dice (other ascended mortals, like Vecna or Imhotep doesn't got those)...do gods get to augment their HD absorbing their follower's souls, like the Planescape Setting claims? Or maybe St Cuthbert was in fact never a mortal?

It becomes weirder if you check Forgotten Realms's deities. Cyric, who was a quite normal guy when a mortal, got 53 class level as a deity...how did he manage to get those class levels? As a deity, he must have an insane LA, how is he even able to get xp, and to get it so fast?

[137beth]

What I really want to know is how did St Cuthbert got those 20 Outsider Hit Dice (other ascended mortals, like Vecna or Imhotep doesn't got those)...do gods get to augment their HD absorbing their follower's souls, like the Planescape Setting claims? Or maybe St Cuthbert was in fact never a mortal?

It becomes weirder if you check Forgotten Realms's deities. Cyric, who was a quite normal guy when a mortal, got 53 class level as a deity...how did he manage to get those class levels? As a deity, he must have an insane LA, how is he even able to get xp, and to get it so fast?

Deities don't have LA:smalltongue:

[Zubrowka74]

What I really want to know is how did St Cuthbert got those 20 Outsider Hit Dice (other ascended mortals, like Vecna or Imhotep doesn't got those)...do gods get to augment their HD absorbing their follower's souls, like the Planescape Setting claims? Or maybe St Cuthbert was in fact never a mortal?

It becomes weirder if you check Forgotten Realms's deities. Cyric, who was a quite normal guy when a mortal, got 53 class level as a deity...how did he manage to get those class levels? As a deity, he must have an insane LA, how is he even able to get xp, and to get it so fast?

But the mad god did defeat 3 gods and absorb their powers / portofolio instead of just ascending. Perhaps that's where he got the class levels. I recall he was a dual-classed human thief / fighter.

[Clistenes]

But the mad god did defeat 3 gods and absorb their powers / portofolio instead of just ascending. Perhaps that's where he got the class levels. I recall he was a dual-classed human thief / fighter.

So...if you defeat a deity and claim its divinity, you also get to steal its class levels?...:smallconfused:

How come the most murderous deities, like Lolth, for example, doesn't have 100 class levels each, from the weaker godlings they hunt and eat?

[nyjastul69]

What I really want to know is how did St Cuthbert got those 20 Outsider Hit Dice (other ascended mortals, like Vecna or Imhotep doesn't got those)...do gods get to augment their HD absorbing their follower's souls, like the Planescape Setting claims? Or maybe St Cuthbert was in fact never a mortal?

It becomes weirder if you check Forgotten Realms's deities. Cyric, who was a quite normal guy when a mortal, got 53 class level as a deity...how did he manage to get those class levels? As a deity, he must have an insane LA, how is he even able to get xp, and to get it so fast?

I don't think St. Cuthbert was ever a mortal. He's one of the oldest Greyhawk deities.

[Clistenes]

I don't think St. Cuthbert was ever a mortal. He's one of the oldest Greyhawk deities.

His church claims that he was once a mortal, and St Cuthbert, being lawful, can't lie or endorse a lie, unless he himself is deluded into thinking that he was once a mortal.

According to some sources, the faith of the believers can alter deities' minds and personalities...the 2nd edition Shaman Handbooks says that maybe deities are nothing but very powerful shamanic spirits born from the Dreamscape, and all their pasts are lies (even those who believe to be ascended mortals would be nothing but spirits born from the faith of their followers, the true mortal hero being somewhere else, very confused because there is a god claiming to be him).


But the mad god did defeat 3 gods and absorb their powers / portofolio instead of just ascending. Perhaps that's where he got the class levels. I recall he was a dual-classed human thief / fighter.

I have re-read it...do you mean that defeating those 3 god gave him enough XP to gain a ****ton of levels?

[Invader]

His church claims that he was once a mortal, and St Cuthbert, being lawful, can't lie or endorse a lie, unless he himself is deluded into thinking that he was once a mortal.

According to some sources, the faith of the believers can alter deities' minds and personalities...the 2nd edition Shaman Handbooks says that maybe deities are nothing but very powerful shamanic spirits born from the Dreamscape, and all their pasts are lies (even those who believe to be ascended mortals would be nothing but spirits born from the faith of their followers, the true mortal hero being somewhere else, very confused because there is a god claiming to be him).



I have re-read it...do you mean that defeating those 3 god gave him enough XP to gain a ****ton of levels?

Churches claiming things about their deities might not be true?! Preposterous! :smallamused:

[Clistenes]

Churches claiming things about their deities might not be true?! Preposterous! :smallamused:

St Cuthbert is the god of Honesty, among other things. He can't be dishonest, at least not at that level. Unless the Athar are right and all the gods are cosmic conmen and frauds, of course.

[Zubrowka74]

I have re-read it...do you mean that defeating those 3 god gave him enough XP to gain a ****ton of levels?

Maybe, I don't know. What I'm saying is that it's part of a story that doesn't have to abide by game rule. Same as plot-armor ;)

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

St Cuthbert is the god of Honesty, among other things. He can't be dishonest, at least not at that level. Unless the Athar are right and all the gods are cosmic conmen and frauds, of course.

But if faith really can shape reality, then who's to say that faith can't retcon existence to make the background of the God of Honesty one hundred percent true?

Anyways, back on topic. Most deities have stats that would be appropriate for PCs and monsters of their CR. That would be either through temporary day buffs or magic items. I would imagine that they've converted their magic items into slotless buffs, of course, or integrated them into their divine power so that the ability score buffs are as natural as the divine rank.

[nyjastul69]

His church claims that he was once a mortal, and St Cuthbert, being lawful, can't lie or endorse a lie, unless he himself is deluded into thinking that he was once a mortal.

According to some sources, the faith of the believers can alter deities' minds and personalities...the 2nd edition Shaman Handbooks says that maybe deities are nothing but very powerful shamanic spirits born from the Dreamscape, and all their pasts are lies (even those who believe to be ascended mortals would be nothing but spirits born from the faith of their followers, the true mortal hero being somewhere else, very confused because there is a god claiming to be him).



I have re-read it...do you mean that defeating those 3 god gave him enough XP to gain a ****ton of levels?


Fair enough, you probably got me on the current canon. I should have elaborated a little. His first introduction to the game, when it was still called 'The Fantasy Game' was as a deity, along with Pholtus IIRC. He wasn't a former PC that ascended to godhood through play. I don't think Gygax allowed for that. I believe the closest PC's ever got to divinity was demi-god status. Regardless of current or prior canon I don't think it matters much. It seems the designers just designed the gods as they saw fit without regard to worrying about how they got that status. More to the point, I don't think they cared if the fluff matched the mechanics.

[Gemini476]

Of course St.Cuthbert was a mortal before he ascended! He was also from England and apparently left a mace on Golarion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert)
I have no clue why they gave non-PC gods 20RHD though. Maybe they figured that since they were gods they clearly should be the most outsidery outsiders. And since nothing is more outsidery than outsider Hit Dice, they get as many of those as non-epic character could have, 20.
Still doesn't make sense though.

[BWR]

There was an old adventure, in Dragon IIRc, where PCs travel to other worlds (ours, I believe) where they break into a museum to recover his cudgel.

[nyjastul69]

There was an old adventure, in Dragon IIRc, where PCs travel to other worlds (ours, I believe) where they break into a museum to recover his cudgel.
I think that was Dragon Magazine issue #100. The museum was in London IIRC.

[BWR]

That sounds about right.

[nyjastul69]

That sounds about right.

I just checked and it was indeed that issue. The adventure was named The City Beyond the Gate: An adventure for high-level AD&D characters.

[Zombulian]

What I really want to know is how did St Cuthbert got those 20 Outsider Hit Dice (other ascended mortals, like Vecna or Imhotep doesn't got those)...do gods get to augment their HD absorbing their follower's souls, like the Planescape Setting claims? Or maybe St Cuthbert was in fact never a mortal?

It becomes weirder if you check Forgotten Realms's deities. Cyric, who was a quite normal guy when a mortal, got 53 class level as a deity...how did he manage to get those class levels? As a deity, he must have an insane LA, how is he even able to get xp, and to get it so fast?

Just going to point out that if he were really a Saint by D&D's standards (the Saint Template), then he would be an Outsider.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Just ignore St Cuthbert, completely, the story of him having once been a mortal has been called dogma and its been called rumor. At one point he was Lawful Good with Lawful Neutral tendencies and at another he's been Lawful Neutral with good tendencies.

[Bogardan_Mage]

There are lots of ways to increase your ability scores in the game. Nowhere does it say that being a deity automatically increases your ability scores, in fact the FAQ that explains the scores suggests that acquiring them might be a prerequisite of divine ascension, rather than the other way around. The point is simply to ensure deities have very high stats.