[PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

[Novawurmson]

As was brought up recently in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15524398&postcount=53), there really isn't a solid Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) optimization guide is an opening for a new and improved alchemist guide. I am notoriously bad at finishing projects I start, so I would like to enlist the aid of several fine denizens of the playground to co-author or at least aid in the creation of a "crowd-sourced" alchemist guide.

Most importantly: Is anyone willing to help create an alchemist guide? If not, the rest of this post is meaningless.

If there is interest, here's some points of discussion or ways people could help:


Creation of a suitable/unified rating system.
Evaluating races, including favored class bonuses and racial feats
Evaluating discoveries
Evaluating feats
Evaluating skills
Evaluating mutagens/other class features
Evaluating archetypes
Evaluating prestige classes
Evaluating extracts
Evaluating third-party material
Evaluating gear
Snarky/amusing/witty comments
Silly/awesome/interesting pictures for the guide
Evaluating stat weights
Creating example builds
FAQ of common rules questions that apply to alchemists

[Deathkeeper]

I'm no optimizer, but I can help with basic input on races, archetypes, class features, and such.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There should really be at least two guides, one for bombers and one for melee alchemists (or even just Vivisectionist specifically), just as Ogre had. You can try to do a hybrid, but you're better off not doing so, and they are completely different classes, effectively.

[Psyren]

What's wrong with Ogre's? It has the essentials - ratings for the in-class options, discussion on variables like race/items/feats, and even discusses both the melee and ranged alchemist paths. He even posted an updated one after Ultimate Magic.

I'm not against a new one being made, but I don't think it's fair to say there isn't a solid guide out there already.

[Novawurmson]

There should really be at least two guides, one for bombers and one for melee alchemists (or even just Vivisectionist specifically), just as Ogre had. You can try to do a hybrid, but you're better off not doing so, and they are completely different classes, effectively.

Definitely. At least a discussion of a "Bruce-Banner" style Str-based alchemist vs. Dex based melee (Vivisectionist) vs. bomber vs. support alchemist. I think you can squeeze a ranged non-bomber in there as well, with a little creativity.


What's wrong with Ogre's? It has the essentials - ratings for the in-class options, discussion on variables like race/items/feats, and even discusses both the melee and ranged alchemist paths. He even posted an updated one after Ultimate Magic.

I'm not against a new one being made, but I don't think it's fair to say there isn't a solid guide out there already.

It's a fair point, but there are a number of reasons I'd like to make a new guide:
-Visibility: A guide on the forums is more likely to be used by people on the forums and encourage people on the forums to play that class. Look at any of the recruiting threads on the forums; I guarantee that at least 50% of the builds of the characters being posted are based off optimization guides.
-Thoroughness: Ogre's guide does a good job covering the basics, but I think we can bring more in-depth analysis of the class.
-Variety: Simply the fact that we are different people means that we will find different character goals, build options, and optimization levels more appealing. We can give a wider variety of choices and opinions to budding alchemists.
-Community: I feel like the PF optimization community is still lagging behind the 3.5 optimization community; making more guides and provoking more discussion is one of the main ways to raise the standard, in my opinion.
-Organization and readability: I think we can make a guide friendlier to the reader.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Rating system? Here's my suggestion. No reason to get fancy.

Great/Essential
Good
Average/Circumstantial
Bad
Very bad/Rarely Useful


*starts looking at races*
Just so we're all clear, the most important stat for almost everything (#of Bombs per day, extracts, Dicovery DCs) alchemists do is Int , so expect that to play highly into any recommendation. With the only exception being the effect of mutagens, any race that gets a penalty to Int will automatically be bad (Orc) or very bad (anything else).

For the Bomb Thrower
Core Races:
Dwarf:
Elf:
Gnome: No bonus to int, but bonus bombs per day from favored class
Half-Elf:
Half-Orc:
Halfling:
Human: but not as good as the halfbloods or the elf, IMO.

Featured Races:
Aasimar: They do nothing to help you, and not thing to hurt you, either.
Catfolk: As above
Dhampir:
Drow:
Fetchling:
Goblin:
Hobgoblin: They can get the same favored class bonus that gnomes get, for some reason.
Ifrit: At least they have a decent favored class bonus, with no penalty to int.
Kobolds: Even with their favored class bonus. No.
Orc: Orcs smash things, not make bombs.
Oreads
Ratfolk: Finally a bonus to int.
Sylph:
Tengu
Tiefling
Undine

For the Mutagen User
Core Races:
Dwarf:
Elf:
Gnome:
Half-Elf:
Half-Orc: Rated above the half elf because of better racial abilities (ferocity, darkvision, weapon prof., etc.)
Halfling:
Human:

Featured Races:
Aasimar:
Catfolk:
Dhampir: Only because of an interesting favored class ability.
Drow: As Dhampir
Fetchling
Goblin: More useful if you're going to be a vivisectionist. Avoid otherwise.
Hobgoblin: Very useful as a vivisectionist, with bonuses to dex and con scores and stealth checks.
Ifrit
Kobolds: Can't be red enough
Orc: Penalty to int, but a +4 to strength makes them not the absolute worst choice for a mutagen using alchemist.
Oreads
Ratfolk
Sylph
Tengu
Tiefling
Undine

Feel free to disagree with ratings. It was a cursory look. I wanted to get some discussion started on the topic. Biggest issue I had was finding a really great option for either build. There just isn't a really astounding pick for alchemist like there is for other classes (tielfling/samsaran/elf wizards, half-elf/human Oracle/Sorc) that I could see.

[Novawurmson]

Rating system? Here's my suggestion. No reason to get fancy.

Great/Essential
Good
Average/Circumstantial
Bad
Very bad/Rarely Useful

Seconded for the rating system


Just so we're all clear, the most important stat for almost everything (#of Bombs per day, extracts, Dicovery DCs) alchemists do is Int , so expect that to play highly into any recommendation. With the only exception being the effect of mutagens, any race that gets a penalty to Int will automatically be bad (Orc) or very bad (anything else).

I think Con and Dex should be next in line for stat weight for most alchemists, Con for the obvious health and Fort saves, Dex for Initiative, AC, Reflex saves, and ranged attacks. Wis is nice for will saves and spot checks. Str and Cha are mostly useless unless going for a Str-melee build, Cha if a party face is needed.

Small size is nice for bomb throwers (bonus on attack rolls and AC).

I'll make notes where my conclusions differ.

For the Bomb Thrower
Core Races:
Dwarf: Hardy is good, bonus Natural Armor from mutagens is good, but it's so hard to justify the lack of Int bonus.
Elf: Bonus to Perception is nice, proficiency with longbows could be interesting for a ranged build I'm considering. Bonus against enchantment is nice when you have a low Will save. Bonus formulae are excellent. Stabbing Shot, Elven Accuracy, and Breadth of Experience can all be useful.
Gnome: No bonus to int, but bonus bombs per day from favored class. Saboteur isn't awful, but it isn't anything to write home about.
Half-Elf: Dual Minded is solid and Ancestral Arms can be put to good use for a melee build. Bramble Brewer is interesting.
Half-Orc: Bonus to bomb damage is OK. It seems it would apply on splash damage, too. Numerous martial weapons able to be picked up for the martial alchemist.
Halfling:
Human: but not as good as the halfbloods or the elf, IMO. Bonus formulae is powerful, but you can get that from being an elf.

Featured Races:
Aasimar: They do nothing to help you, and not thing to hurt you, either.
Catfolk: As above
Dhampir:
Drow:
Fetchling:
Goblin:
Hobgoblin: They can get the same favored class bonus that gnomes get, for some reason.
Ifrit: At least they have a decent favored class bonus, with no penalty to int.
Kobolds: Even with their favored class bonus. No.
Orc: Orcs smash things, not make bombs.
Oreads
Ratfolk: Finally a bonus to int.
Sylph:
Tengu
Tiefling: Bonuses to Int and Dex and no penalty to Con? Bonus to bomb damage? Heck, yes! Drop Fiendish Sorcery for Prehensile Tail. Blinding Sneak Attack is great for Vivisectionist.
Undine

For the Mutagen User
Core Races:
Dwarf:
Elf:
Gnome:
Half-Elf: As a note, Ancestral Arms means the Half-Elf can pick up one weapon it wants.
Half-Orc: Rated above the half elf because of better racial abilities (ferocity, darkvision, weapon prof., etc.)
Halfling:
Human:

Featured Races:
Aasimar:
Catfolk:
Dhampir: Only because of an interesting favored class ability.
Drow: As Dhampir
Fetchling
Goblin: More useful if you're going to be a vivisectionist. Avoid otherwise.
Hobgoblin: Very useful as a vivisectionist, with bonuses to dex and con scores and stealth checks.
Ifrit
Kobolds: Can't be red enough
Orc: Penalty to int, but a +4 to strength makes them not the absolute worst choice for a mutagen using alchemist.
Oreads
Ratfolk
Sylph
Tengu
Tiefling: I feel like if the alternate racial benefits (like Oni-Spawn) are in play, Tieflings could move up here.
Undine


There just isn't a really astounding pick for alchemist like there is for other classes (tielfling/samsaran/elf wizards, half-elf/human Oracle/Sorc) that I could see.

I feel like Tiefling bomb-thrower is pretty awesome, tbh. Maybe not as good as a samsaran wizard being able to pick up cleric spells, but awesome in its own way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, favored class to bomb damage adds to splash damage; that's what makes it good, really... Also, I strongly disagree that Stabbing Shot is useful for...anyone, ever. :smallyuk:

For a bomber, int is most important, then dex and con. Charisma is a total dump stat, str is somewhat of a dump stat, just not too low (or use Ant Haul and muleback cords). Wis is not important but covers your weak save.
For a melee alchemist, str or dex (whichever you attack with) or wisdom (if you can get guided enhancement allowed) is most important, then kind of a tie between Con, Int, and Dex (if it's not your attack stat already). Charisma is the total dump stat; str is somewhat if not using it, wisdom is as w/ bomber.

For the Bomb Thrower
Core Races:
Dwarf: Solid race, but doesn't boost any of the most important stats.
Elf: Good stat bonuses, con penalty hurts a bit.
Gnome: Small size is sadly the most useful thing here. This should've been the best bomber race!
Half-Elf: Bramble Brewer is decent; main reason H-E is good is Paragon Surge. You can't abuse it to smithereens like an actual (spontaneous) caster, but having general, combat, and extra discovery feats on demand is still super helpful.
Half-Orc: Bonus to bomb damage and darkvision; can get luck bonus to saves, too.
Halfling: If your DM allows Ogre's idea of warslinger to chuck bombs via the sling for 50 ft range increment...not a bad choice.
Human: Strong choice for any class; can steal other racial unique stuff with Racial Heritage feat (like paragon surge use).

Featured Races:
Aasimar: None of the variants give Int *and* dex or con, but you also lose nothing...
Catfolk
Dhampir: Base race SUCKS; variants can be very good. Mutagen duration boost is handy to anyone who loses Persistent Mutagen (like beastmorphs).
Drow: Mutagen duration boost can't make up for awful stats.
Fetchling
Goblin: Stats could be more useful, but don't hurt. Access to Rocket Bomb is the major draw; it works very nicely w/ the cloud effects you should be using as a bomber.
Hobgoblin
Ifrit: Bomb damage is nice, but better races have that.
Kobolds
Orc
Oreads
Ratfolk: Small race with perfect stats; archetype is interesting but probably not a good idea.
Sylph: Elf that can't use reduce person and lacks all the elf-related options. Yay?
Tengu
Tiefling: Perfect stats; tail to hold stuff; boosts bomb damage; can even get some natural armor.
Undine

For the Mutagen User
Core Races:
Dwarf: Great for wis-users; Orange for anyone else.
Elf: For dex-users; Red for others.
Gnome
Half-Elf: Again, Paragon Surge. Ancestral Arms can be useful.
Half-Orc: Solid option if stuff like Agile and guided weapon aren't available.
Halfling: For a dex-user; Red for others.
Human: Strong choice for any class; can steal other racial unique stuff with Racial Heritage feat (like paragon surge use).

Featured Races:
Aasimar: Depends on your attack stat. Garuda-blooded gets dex/wis for guided weapon users; others are less useful. Can count as humanoid via a variant, so Enlarge Person is still an option.
Catfolk
Dhampir: Base race SUCKS; variants can be very good. Mutagen duration boost is handy to anyone who loses Persistent Mutagen (like beastmorphs).
Drow: Mutagen duration boost can't make up for awful stats.
Fetchling
Goblin: Excellent for dex-users, terribad for anyone else.
Hobgoblin
Ifrit: Just terrible.
Kobolds
Orc: I guess +4 str is kind of a big deal, I'd still like to make this orange...
Oreads
Ratfolk: Great stats for dex-users.
Sylph
Tengu
Tiefling: Great options for dex- and wis-users, Oni is ok for str- users. Tail and natural armor again; maw or claw for (added) natural weapons. Blinding Sneak Attack is pretty good.
Undine

[Squirrel_Dude]

Orcs probably also get pushed up to green (and I'll admit, it's only barely there) because of ferocity. In terms of low-level survivability, ferocity is awesome, especially when you have the ability to heal yourself like an alchemist does.

[Novawurmson]

Orcs probably also get pushed up to green (and I'll admit, it's only barely there) because of ferocity. In terms of low-level survivability, ferocity is awesome, especially when you have the ability to heal yourself like an alchemist does.

I remember seeing a simulation about how good ferocity is...Here it is (http://faustusnotes.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/the-epidemiology-of-pathfinder-the-effects-of-orc-ferocity/). Basically, an Orc without ferocity wins vs. a level 1 fighter around 30% percent of the time, while an orc with ferocity wins the same fight about 60% of the time. Level 1 combat is already pretty swingy, but it's basically adding your Con to HP (that's Con, not Con modifier).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ferocity is also a great way to turn "dying, and left alone for still active threats" to "dead." *shrug*

Yeah, you can heal, but Alchemist isn't terribly good at in-battle healing; past very low levels a cure spell just doesn't cut it. The best part of ferocity is being able to trade it out for something awesome, like +1 luck to saves, or a bite attack. Neither of which full Orcs can legally do.

As for melee alchemists in general...

Str-based: The typical build. Doesn't require any special items or feats to function. Suffers from the worst MAD of any alchemist build at all, and buffing str w/ mutagen hurts int, which is annoying. Can make best use of the melee buff extracts, especially Enlarge Person and Monstrous Physique (to turn into a Calikang for lots of arms/attacks). Most likely to 2H a weapon for the added str bonus. Once pounce is available (Beastmorph), may switch to natural attacks or simply add them in. Even at low levels, may add a bite attack to the 2H weapon routine.

Dex-based: Needs Weapon Finesse and Agile property to function, and a poor choice for low level games. Often will be natural/unarmed based, since you can put Agile on an Amulet of Mighty Fists without a +1 first and affect every weapon/attack, making it *far* more economical than enhancing a weapon. The least MAD of the melee alchemists. Many typical melee buffs to gain reach and such will actively hurt you. Mutagen lowering wis hurts, but is less painful than for str- or wis- users.

Wis-based: Relies on the Guided enhancement to function at all, has an even rougher time at low levels than dex-based. However, is probably the strongest choice later on and doesn't even cost a feat. Even more likely to be unarmed/natural based, as w/ dex-based above. Most likely to mix unarmed iteratives w/ 2ndary natural attacks and/or TWF, thanks to not getting half wis to damage on the off-hand and 2ndary attacks. Because PF fears bonuses to two physical stats but loves physical/mental combos, tends to have the most # of good races to choose from. Mutagen will hurt dex, which is at least as annoying as the str-based guy's hurting int.

[Psyren]

Healing while you're down may not be very effective past low levels, but a higher downed alchemist can also turn invisible, shadow walk away, turn to dust, or burrow underground, followed by healing himself once he is out of harm's way. And Heal itself is also on the alchemist list, which is efficient enough to use in combat.

[The Random NPC]

I too would like more guidance on how to make a Bramble Brewer/battlefield controler. Ogre really only covers direct bomb damage or physical damage. Master Chymist/Cognitigen might be good to explore too.

[NamelessNPC]

How good is really a WIS based melee alchemist? I've never built or seen one, but it seems a bit counter intuitive. You have to use a cognatogen tu buff your wisdom, but that doesn't improve your CON and lowers your DEX. Do you use mutagen and cognatogen?

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can't use a mutagen and cognatogen together as far as I know... And honestly, I had just thought of it as a possibility when I started writing up my races review. Cognatogen does introduce a lot of issues, between needing to spend a discovery or taking an archetype that is good but might not stack with others you want, to the int and cha boosts of greater/grand being useless, to the lasting ability damage cognatogens do.

Still, it has some nice appeal. Again, you get the replacement to attacks and damage in one item, and you can have as many 2ndary natural attacks and (unarmed, if you car about $$) two weapon fighting as you want and still get full modifier to damage. And will is by far the alchemist's Achilles' Heel, much more so than the other saves or AC. I don't know, it might not actually be the best option at higher levels after all, but it's still quite worthwhile.

[Novawurmson]

Note: We need to theorycraft if a poison build could ever be viable.

Getting a start on discoveries:

Acid Bomb - Acid is less commonly resisted than fire, plus it does an extra 1d6 damage a round later. Not must-have, but not bad.

Alchemical Simulacrum - It's a fancy little scout. Note that it costs 100gp per HD, making it significantly cheaper than a regular casting of the spell. Required for Doppelganger Simulacrum, which is better.

Alchemical Zombie - More expensive than animate dead, and takes about an hour longer. On the other hand, it can be used an indefinite number of times as long as you have money and time, so you can build quite an army if those things are in abundance.

Blinding Bomb - Blind is a nasty status condition, especially if there's a Rogue in your party to support. Note that it lasts an entire minute.

Bottled Ooze - A CR 6 ooze does not equal a 6th level extract slot.

Breath Weapon Bomb - Definitely not the first thing to pick up, but the fact that it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity adds value. Too bad it can't be mixed with another bomb modifier (but it can be mixed with Dispelling Bombs - see below) Nice for the person who really just wanted to play a dragonfire adept.

Celestial Poisons - Ah, ravages - I mean, goody-goody poisons. Too bad poisons aren't that good to begin with.

Chameleon - It's a flat bonus on stealth checks. If you want to be sneaky, take it once you have room for it. It's a better ratio of feat/bonus than Skill Focus (Stealth) at least.

Change Alignment - I'm leaving this unjudged. I feel like there's some really fun use for this somewhere.

Cognatogen - You have bonuses to damage from Int. This gives bonus Int. Do the math.

Combine Extracts - This feels like it could be useful, but +2 might be too harsh. Needs theorycrafting.

Concentrate Poison - It's pretty cool, but poisons are mostly not worth it.

Concussive Bomb - Sonic is almost never resisted, but you are taking a DPS hit for the benefit. Deafened on a Fort save just screams "Throw me at the arcane spellcaster!"

Confusion Bomb - There's...no save listed. Sweet, sweet Desna, there's no save listed.

Deadly Excretions - Grippli-only. If you're Grippli anyway, this is decent, but Grippli isn't the best race for the alchemist to begin with.

Defoliant Bomb - I guess if you're fighting an army of Druids, this is pretty cool. Otherwise, skip it.

Delayed Bomb - I feel like this has uses for a clever alchemist, but it's definitely not a must-have-immediately.

Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

Elixir of Life - It's a green mushroom. It's a red balloon/one hundred bananas. It's a Guardian Angel. It's pretty expensive, but it's pretty incredible.

Enhance Potion - It's decent. It makes up a little bit for how non-cost efficient potions are. Note that you don't have to be the one to make the potion, or even have the spell on your class list. If your DM likes handing out potions like they're going out of style, it's even better.

Eternal Potion - Permanency for the price of a potion is pretty useful. Keep a rounds per level buff going all day.

Explosive Bomb - Bonus damage, bonus AoE, plus a fire that doesn't go out unless they take a full-round action to roll around. Pretty nifty.

Explosive Missile - I really like the concept of this discovery, but I don't think it'll pan out past level...6 or so. For a level 4-5 one-shot campaign, it hits its stride. Even so, you're probably better going with Rapid Shot and Vivisectionist.

Extend Potion - It's really not that great, but there are some interesting things to do with this. The main catches are cash flow and time to spend crafting potions. If your party can't wait for you to brew potions, or you're not getting much gold, it's definitely a skip.

Fast Bombs - If you are a bomb alchemist, you need this. Bonus bombs per round based on BAB. Bonus bombs per round for haste. Bonus bombs per round from rapid shot. Bombs bombs bombs.

Feral Mutagen - Rating assumes a Str-based build. Three natural attacks at level 2 is nothing to sneer at; even if you ignore the claws and use a two-handed weapon, the bite is still good.

Fire Brand - Melee weapon discovery for goblins only. But wait, the Vivisectionist...! Nope, it requires bombs. Skip it.

Force Bomb - Force damage is almost never resisted. Possible trip is a nice bonus.

Frost Bomb - Cold is still a fairly common immunity, but staggered is a powerful status condition. Good for denying Rogue-types their full attack

Grand Cognatogen - It's a +8 to Intelligence...what more do you want in a discovery? Oh, you're a melee? Hold that thought, because we've also got...

Grand Mutagen - It's a +8 to a physical ability score of your choice. Everyone happy now? Good.

Grease Bomb - Grease is a nasty spell, but this doesn't have all of the same utility. Still decent for area control at low levels, but at level 6, flight is starting to come into play.

Greater Plague Bomb - Waiting to review Plague Bomb

Greater Alchemical Simulacrum - Doppelganger Simulacrum is cooler, but Simulacrum is still a pretty awesome spell to have around.

Greater Cognatogen - Raw stat increases goooood.

Greater Mutagen - As above. Stat bonuses that stack with everything.

Healing Touch - Waiting to review Spontaneous Healing

Holy Bombs - Comma, Batman! I guess there's some benefit if you've really grown to love your Frost Bombs and then get pitted against a ton of evil outsiders with cold resistance.

Immolation Bomb - Fun fact: It's the only alchemist discovery that requires an odd alchemist level, so you'll need to pick it up with a feat if you want it ASAP. Technically, it's a DPS boost (instead of, say 3d6+Int, it's 1d6+Int+1d6+Int+1d6+Int=3d6+Intx3)...as long as it actually burns for several rounds. Most combat sadly doesn't go much beyond four rounds or so, so you're unlikely to see much actual benefit.

I'll leave it at there for now.

[Squirrel_Dude]

For any future suggestions, I would recommend bolding the name of the option being described. It will make it much easier to read the cyan against the bold text. The other way would be to switch it from cyan, blue, green, orange, red to blue, green, black, orange, red

[Novawurmson]

For any future suggestions, I would recommend bolding the name of the option being described. It will make it much easier to read the cyan against the bold text. The other way would be to switch it from cyan, blue, green, orange, red to blue, green, black, orange, red

Dangit, man, you were the one who suggested cyan! :smallwink:

How about switching cyan to purple?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Maybe. I liked Cyan because it made the best options stand out.


E.G.
Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

But it may also be less of an issue if it's in a spoiler tag and not on the white background. Testing that now.

Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.Eh....

Maybe if it's in a spoiler and bold...
Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card. Eh...


Maybe if it's not Cyan but Medium Turquoise

Without bold
Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

Oh, that is so much better.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think poison is ever viable, but if you were to do it...and being a caster that just turns into stuff w/ a poison attack is unappealing... I suppose Alchemist is the way to go. Mainstays would be the Sticky Poison and Poison Conversion discoveries; the others really aren't that good. Sticky cuts your costs to 1/4 or so; conversion lets you think up ka-wazy combos like "inhaled drow poison". Primary tactics would be fighting in melee with a poisoned weapon while also tossing down some inhaled poison and fighting within it (once you get poison immunity at level 10).

I think you're being too kind in your rankings, overall.


Alchemical Simulacrum: It costs double what the equivalent spell does in gp. No freaking thank you. Red, orange at best.

Alchemical Zombie: Orange, Green is too kind. IME, animated undead tend to get destroyed frequently, the price just is not right. I also just really don't like that a tier 3 class has to pay double what a tier 1 class has to and wait till higher levels just to do the same thing. That's really my problem w/ all these zombie/simulacrum discoveries.

Breath Weapon Bomb: Orange. The only reason to ever use it is to do so w/ dispelling bomb, and that's just too narrow / dspelling ain't so great, either.

Celestial Poisons: Actually should be green, if poisons have any use at all. Undead have weak fortitude saves, this could be a huge edge against them.

Chameleon: It may be slightly better than skill focus, but skill focus is a weak feat, and unlike rogue talents...a lot of discoveries actually ARE worth more than a feat. Orange.

Cognatogen: Cyan. It's a must for a bomber, though most of them will be getting it via Mindchemist anyway. Obviously useless to a physical-based alchemist.

Combine Extracts: I've struggled to find a good use for it w/ my Alchemist and have avoided taking it thus far. The general accepted equivalence (Versatile Spellcaster feat in 3E) is that two slots of level X is worth 1 slot of level X+1, so this looks weak on a cursory glance.

Concentrate Poison: Red; not just because poisons are weak, this is also just not worth it.

Concussive Bomb: Orange; if you want unresisted damage and are willing to sack damage for it, take Force Bomb.

Confusion Bomb: I agree it's blue. But it does have drawbacks over the spell. You need to touch them, and it's single target only. The power of confusion is confusing a lot of foes so they inevitably start killing each other. To use this, you basically need to nova.

Deadly Excretions: Red. Bad race, very limited use ability.

Defoliant Bomb: Red. Will seldom come up.

Dispelling Bomb: It's nice that it can stack with other stuff, but dispel is nerfed in PF and this version doesn't even let you choose which one spell you get to dispel, so I'd make it green. A very good green perhaps, but still green.

Doppleganger Simulacrum: It's not bad, but for *players* it seems very limited in usefulness, cyan is way too high. Green at best, possibly orange for being situational and requiring alch. simulacrum.

Elixer of Life: Again, cyan is just way too high. Costs nearly the same as a scroll of true res, so why are you wasting a high level class feature on this? Also, in 4 more levels, you can create a true res elixir once/month for FREE. So yeah, Orange.

Eternal Potion: Should probably be Blue.

Fast Bombs: I think it's just Blue and that blowing 4+ bombs in one round is a sure-fire way to be worthless by the end of the 2nd combat. But apparently a lot of people have very short adventuring days.

Feral Mutagen: It's good for dex- and wis- based, too! Does kind of suck relying on it instead of a full-time set of claws/bite, but Undead Anatomy I is a good fallback option.

Holy Bombs: Green. Also has utility in not having to worry about harming allies with splash damage.

Immolation Bomb: It's red. Very, very red.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'd actually defend Dispelling Bomb with a blue rating, but only if you're going for Fast Bombs.

I'm playing in a game where a buddy of mine is playing an alchemist, and just now Dispelling Bombs and Fast Bombs are coming 'online.' With Haste, he's able to dispel up to three spells a round. Even without the ability to choose which ones, that tears into enemy buffs. We basically curb-stomped a lich because he was able to strip his defenses away in seconds.

It's essentially like early access to Greater Dispel. It eats through bombs something fierce, though...

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'll defend Alchemical simulacrum. Alchemists don't get alchemical any simulacrum on their spell list, so this is their only way to get what is still one of the most broken spells in 3.X.

At least in terms of all-around utility, it might be better than the doppelganger simulacra because things like Succubi, Wyverns, and Aboleths have less than 10 hit dice, and so it's actually less expensive to create them than it would be a copy of yourself.

Obviously, other casters (wizards, sorcerers) are better at it, but they're better at most things, and I still think any alchemist should have this ability in his repetoir.

[avr]

Alchemical Simulacrum is based off the spell Lesser Simulacrum, so it's actually double the cost of the spell. The main use of the discovery is as a prerequisite to Doppelganger Simulacrum.

I like Combine Extracts though. There are some handy low level extracts which combine well; Bomber's Eye and Longshot (both 1st) for example, or Heroic Fortune (2nd) and a buff like Fox's Cunning (2nd) or Haste (3rd). Circumstantial (green), perhaps.

[avr]

BTW, if you really want lesser simulacrum in its' own right, there is an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/clone-master) which might serve you better.

[Squirrel_Dude]

And just like that it goes from being really good in my estimate to being average at best.

[Novawurmson]

I think you're being too kind in your rankings, overall.

Definitely. If I was in doubt about something, I put it towards the middle. I mostly didn't feel like saying "this is the best thing ever" or "this is the worst thing ever" without some peer review.


I don't think poison is ever viable, but if you were to do it...and being a caster that just turns into stuff w/ a poison attack is unappealing... I suppose Alchemist is the way to go.

Yup...I'd like to eek out at least one "fun" build with poisons for less-optimized groups or maybe for DMs. If it only has to be fun to play one time, it can be a little more forgiving.


Alchemical Simulacrum: It costs double what the equivalent spell does in gp. No freaking thank you. Red, orange at best.

Gah. Didn't catch that lesser is 50g/HD. Note that it doesn't appear to have a duration (as it creates a creature, not a spell affect), potentially making up for the increase in price.


Alchemical Zombie: Orange, Green is too kind. IME, animated undead tend to get destroyed frequently, the price just is not right. I also just really don't like that a tier 3 class has to pay double what a tier 1 class has to and wait till higher levels just to do the same thing. That's really my problem w/ all these zombie/simulacrum discoveries.

I like the undead a little too much. I agree that orange is probably a more objective rating.


Breath Weapon Bomb: Orange. The only reason to ever use it is to do so w/ dispelling bomb, and that's just too narrow / dspelling ain't so great, either.

I stand by an "average" rating. A discovery to throw a bomb against a target within 15ft. without provoking attacks of opportunity is already solid, dealing direct hit bomb damage in a cone is better AoE damage than a regular bomb, along with the interaction with dispelling bomb give it three potential uses.


Celestial Poisons: Actually should be green, if poisons have any use at all. Undead have weak fortitude saves, this could be a huge edge against them.

Hrm. Interesting. It's worth looking into. I still feel like poisons are generally too weak to make it worth it for the average alchemist, as much as I want to find a "working" poison build.


Chameleon: It may be slightly better than skill focus, but skill focus is a weak feat, and unlike rogue talents...a lot of discoveries actually ARE worth more than a feat. Orange.

Eh, I can agree.


Cognatogen: Cyan. It's a must for a bomber, though most of them will be getting it via Mindchemist anyway. Obviously useless to a physical-based alchemist.

Not sure why I didn't rate it Cyan; I guess I was just trying to avoid handing out Cyan/Red ratings without further input.


Combine Extracts: I've struggled to find a good use for it w/ my Alchemist and have avoided taking it thus far. The general accepted equivalence (Versatile Spellcaster feat in 3E) is that two slots of level X is worth 1 slot of level X+1, so this looks weak on a cursory glance.

Agreed. I wouldn't mind adding a "Suggestions to DMs" section for homebrew fixes to discoveries that could be decent with a little tweaking.


Concentrate Poison: Red; not just because poisons are weak, this is also just not worth it.

I feel like the bonus to save DCs would make it worth it for a poison-focused build...which have already been discussed to not be worth it. It'd be nice if it really explained what +50% frequency meant (I think it increases the number of rounds?).


Concussive Bomb: Orange; if you want unresisted damage and are willing to sack damage for it, take Force Bomb.

I can agree on a drop to orange in light of Force Bomb.


Confusion Bomb: I agree it's blue. But it does have drawbacks over the spell. You need to touch them, and it's single target only. The power of confusion is confusing a lot of foes so they inevitably start killing each other. To use this, you basically need to nova.

Even just dropping one on the BBEG (or on a player) is a 75% chance of losing an action. If it wasn't for the existence of creatures immune to mind-affecting and compulsion effects, I would recommend it for cyan (or purple, as the case may be).


Deadly Excretions: Red. Bad race, very limited use ability.
I guess it's improving a 1/day ability. I can agree.


Defoliant Bomb: Red. Will seldom come up.

I feel like that's the point of the orange rating: This is useful if it's useful for your needs; for most people, skip it. This one might be too limited use for orange, but I'm actually going to be DMing a campaign where plants are a major category of recurring enemy, so it stood out to me.


Dispelling Bomb: It's nice that it can stack with other stuff, but dispel is nerfed in PF and this version doesn't even let you choose which one spell you get to dispel, so I'd make it green. A very good green perhaps, but still green.

Eh, I can see that. You're not going to base your build around it, but if you have room for it, pick it up.


Doppleganger Simulacrum: It's not bad, but for *players* it seems very limited in usefulness, cyan is way too high. Green at best, possibly orange for being situational and requiring alch. simulacrum.
I'd be fine with dropping it to green/orange with a note that it's cyan for NPCs/BBEGs. I just have this vision in my head of a room full of marionettes for a major boss fight...


Elixer of Life: Again, cyan is just way too high. Costs nearly the same as a scroll of true res, so why are you wasting a high level class feature on this? Also, in 4 more levels, you can create a true res elixir once/month for FREE. So yeah, Orange.

I could see dropping it to blue or green, but it automatically activates (no action cost) in combat for a full HP restore. That basically doubles your effective health for an important combat. Weren't you planning on getting resurrected anyway? Why not pay the cost up front? Once you hit the level you can actually use this, you're probably getting towards the end of the campaign anyway. Even if you only use it once, I feel like it's worth the discovery slot.


Eternal Potion: Should probably be Blue.

I guess it depends on what potion gets the Eternal treatment. A list of good potions would probably be nice, but I'm fine with upping it.


Fast Bombs: I think it's just Blue and that blowing 4+ bombs in one round is a sure-fire way to be worthless by the end of the 2nd combat. But apparently a lot of people have very short adventuring days.

Several people have commented on the need for more bombs, but I'm not getting it. I played an alchemist from 1 to around 6 and I never really had to worry about running out of bombs. I started with an 18 in Int, I think. I'm fine with downgrading it to blue, but I still think it's a superb nova option.


Feral Mutagen: It's good for dex- and wis- based, too! Does kind of suck relying on it instead of a full-time set of claws/bite, but Undead Anatomy I is a good fallback option.

Excellent notes to add.


Holy Bombs: Green. Also has utility in not having to worry about harming allies with splash damage.

Ooooh, fancy. Also, for people for playing Paizo APs, once they hit a certain level, almost every enemy is going to be evil. Worth mentioning that you need to check your allies' character sheets first.


Immolation Bomb: It's red. Very, very red.

Yeeeeeeeah. The long-term MMO player in me still wants DPR to matter for more than one round, though ::tears::

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, we seem to mostly agree on things. The parts we don't are pretty minor and probably just nitpicking, I'm ok with your rankings on those things.


I like Combine Extracts though. There are some handy low level extracts which combine well; Bomber's Eye and Longshot (both 1st) for example, or Heroic Fortune (2nd) and a buff like Fox's Cunning (2nd) or Haste (3rd). Circumstantial (green), perhaps.

And see, while those may be decent combos, I can honestly say there are multiple extracts of 3rd, 4th, and 5th level (respectively) that I would rather have than those combinations. The fact that they won't cost me a discovery only sweetens it more. And I would seriously never want to use extracts of different levels to combine. Then you're paying an even higher level when one of them is a low level buff.
If the discovery is worth it, there should be combinations that are noticeably better than just using your higher level extract slots normally. It's not some free option, you're paying a cost for the option.

[Novawurmson]

This seems to be stirring up discussion nicely, so I'll move on with some more discoveries.



Inferno Bomb - This is actually pretty solid with the FAQ explanation that the Inferno Bomb damage is in addition to your regular bomb damage, effectively giving an additional 6d6 damage to your bomb (in addition to the battlefield control/vision hampering effects)

Infuse Mutagen - Not really seeing a purpose to this, possibly red.

Infusion - Allows your party to use your infusions. I could possibly see downgrading it to blue, but I feel this is a no-brainer if you have a discovery open (or as a first discovery gained).

Lingering Plague - Disease isn't that great to begin with. Possibly red.

Lingering Spirit - Situational, but possibly useful.

Madness Bomb - No-save Wisdom damage is fun, but it's hard to rack it up. Still potentially debilitating to a cleric or druid, and it can soften someone up for an important Will save effect from a party member.

Malignant Poison - Wow. This is great for poison users. Too bad by level 10 they're already long overdue for something like this. Could be much better if your DM lets you take it early.

Mummification - Immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep for a discovery is wonderful. Needing to wait a month is not. Talk to your DM to see if mummification is right for you.

Mutagen - If you need it, you already have it from taking a level of alchemist. If you dropped it for an archetype, you probably don't need it.

Nauseating Flesh - Cute. Could go green to red depending on the prevalence of creatures with bite attacks in your campaign.

Parasitic Twin - If only it wasn't once per day. Still, it kicks in once you've already failed the save.

Plague Bomb - Potentially red. Diseases have pitifully low DCs.

Greater Plague Bomb - Potentially red. I feel like there's some use if you can soften up an enemy, but this really only feels like its good for a plot device ("Oh, no! The village is diseased!")

Poison Bomb - Cloudkill + bomb damage? Only one level after the Wizard gets it? Pretty sweet.

Poison Conversion - Oh, poison. Poison, poison, poison.

Precise Bombs - This is pretty important unless your allies all have immunity/heavy resistances to your primary bomb energy type. Obviously worthless for non-bomb users.

Preserve Organs - It's probably better to just shell out the gold for light fortification armor, but you can get it from level 2, and critical hits are a leading cause of death in low level characters.

Rag Doll Mutagen - The bonus on Escape Artist is a poor man's freedom of movement. But you get freedom of movement from the alchemist extract list, so this is just a poor choice.

Ranged Baptism - Hilariously named, but impractical.

Rocket Bomb - More chances to hurt your allies? Can't be used with two of the leading discoveries? Hooray!

Scrap Bomb - Its one saving grace is that it doesn't have an asterisk, meaning it can be stacked onto any bomb. By RAW, it looks like it can be mixed with Breath Weapon Bomb, allowing you to cough shrapnel onto your foes.

Shock Bomb - Electricity is less likely to be resisted than fire, but dazzled is just worthless. Go with Acid Bombs or Frost Bombs if you want to shift elements without DPS loss.

Siege Bomb - I don't know enough about the siege weapon system to accurately rate it.

Smoke Bomb - Possible blue. Stack battlefield control onto your primary damage ability.

Spontaneous Healing - The one thing I really have to recommend it is the fact that it's a free action, but this is potentially red.

Healing Touch - The only reason I can see to taking it is increasing the amount of healing from Spontaneous Healing each day.

Sticky Bomb - It's a straight DPS increase that stacks with everything (it's essentially adding Int+number of bomb dice to every hit). It applies on direct hits, so sticky breath away!

Sticky Poison - I feel like there's a sweet spot for a poison alchemist right about level 6. This is solid for them, plus they get swift-action poisons at this level.

Stink Bomb - Nausea+battlefield control+damage all in one go? Heck, yes!

Strafe Bomb - Interesting but mostly impractical. Feels like it would be really good in cramped hallways or as an alternative to Precise bombs.

Sunlight Bomb - +2 damage per die to undead is potentially useful, as they're one of the most common enemy types.

Tanglefoot Bomb - Not bad. Sadly has an asterisk and can't be combined with other kinds of bombs.

Tentacle - It's fancy, but possibly red.

Tumor Familiar - Familiars are already a good value as an extra set of actions each round, plus a skill bonus (or initiative bonus!), plus alertness, plus the disgusting mental image. Possibly blue. Also, check out Die for Your Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/die-for-your-master).

Underwater Demolition - This is pretty awful. Even if you're going underwater, this is pretty awful.

Vestigial Arm - I've seen some creative things done with this and Gunslinging builds. Probably red for general use.

Wings - Extraordinary flying. 'nuff said.

[The Random NPC]

Tanglefoot Bomb - Not bad. Sadly has an asterisk and can't be combined with other kinds of bombs.


I'd say the Tanglefoot Bomb goes to blue if you have the Bramble Brewer archetype. Although the rounds of entanglement goes from 2d4 to Int mod rounds, the splash radius entangles and becomes difficult terrain for that duration. The radius also increases by 5ft every odd level, so 55ft radius at 19th level. Combine it with Precise Bomb to exclude your teammate from being entangled, and you have some fairly decent battlefield control.
It'll probably be too silly to see actual play, but is there anything preventing the air from becoming difficult terrain?

EDIT: Two other things that probably don't work, Strafe Bomb turns it into a line 8 times as long as the splash radius (RAW it doesn't work, as it gives a set distance that doubles if Explosive Bomb is applied), and Greater Plague Bomb lacks the asterisk allowing it to stack with the Tanglefoot Bomb, it causes a Greater Contagion effect in an area double the radius. Of course it's the smoke that causes the effect, which our Tanglefoot Bomb doesn't create.

[Squirrel_Dude]

And because I'm insane and possibly unqualified, I'll start looking at extracts. As with races, unless I feel the need to say something, I'll be keeping it to color.


One nice thing about the Alchemist in this regard is that they get both divine and arcane spells like bard does, but unlike the bard, can in theory know all of them. Also unlike the bard, you don't get cantrips. So there's that This also means that spells will be rated more on overall usefulness as opposed to "if you get this, you can't get this." Even if there are somehow 15 good first level extracts, you have the ability to get all of them.

Also, getting to copy a spell-equivalent-formulae from a wizard's spellbook without needing to make a spellcraft check to decipher it is nice. If you have a party wizard, you should probably ask him if you can take time look through his spellbook every so often.

1st level extracts
Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
Ant Haul:
Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
Bomber's Eye: Bomber's want this, mutants don't
Comprehend Languages:
Crafter's Fortune:
Cure Light Wounds:
Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
Detect Undead:
Disguise Self:
Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
Enlarge Person: A buff for you or your friends.
Expeditious Retreat:
Identify:
Illusion of Calm:
Jump:
Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
Linebreaker: Decent for a mutagen user
Longshot: Bombers get this
Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
Recharge Innate Magic:
Reduce Person: A buff for stealth/recon, or a debuff for your enemies.
See Alignment:
Shield: Better for people staying out of melee
Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
Stone Fist:
Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this
Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
True Strike:
Urban Grace:
Vocal Alteration:
Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly

Tired. More another day.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Inferno Bomb: This is also a moderate amount of fire damage at 16th level...it's really not that amazing for when you get it. Green?

Infuse Mutagen: Yeah, red.

Infusion: I hate this freaking thing! It makes you pay for what other casters get for free. Except it's not even just THAT bad! It also still doesn't let you actually use multi-target buffs like haste properly! WTF? And then the coup de grace came from JJ (class creator) himself, when he said you cannot dismiss an infusion, it lasts until "used," which opens up all kinds of "gotchya!" risks of permanently losing those extract slots should an infusion be stolen, with no means to recover! RED RED RED RED RED The only thing I hate worse than blatant feat taxes are ones that that also can massively **** you over.

Mummification: Rating couldn't be more accurate. I really wanted this for my alchemist, but it doesn't let you start the regimen till you take the extract, and 30 days in my game means 2-3 character levels gained, it's so fast paced. Totally just not worth it in games like that. :smallfrown:

Parasitic Twin: How would you rate Slippery Mind? Take that, then drop it like 2 colors because this is basically SM but far more limited use. I guess Orange works... It's just really underwhelming; red might even be appropriate.

Poison Conversion: This should not be red unless all poison discoveries are red. It is one of the best of them, and like I said has potentially good combos like inhaled drow poison. Might even be green.

Rocket Bomb: Whoah! How is this red? The range and area increases go perfectly with the cloud type bombs that are already the best choice to use. You can't use Precise Bombs, so it won't be useful all the time, but it's still going to be in lots of situations and will often be a great lead-off on round 1. I'd make it blue!

Siege Bomb: I don't know a lot about them either, but I do know I've used exactly zero siege weapons in a decade of D&D. Should be red until proven otherwise. By level 12, I'm skeptical armies are even attacking with siege weapons any more, why isn't this available right away?!

Sticky Bomb: I think it's only green if you have a favored class bomb damage bonus, otherwise the splash damage will be too little to care about for this.

Stink Bomb: Biggest plus is that you can get it at level 3, before the wizard! Downsides are smaller area (fixed w/ rocket bomb) and only 1 round duration (that part just sucks, oh well).

Tanglefoot Bomb: I think on its own, it's Orange, just not good enough. Bramble Brewer's version is easily at least Green, though.

Tentacle: It's awesome! ...Maybe better for melee or archer alchemists than bombers, though. I use mine to hold a (darkwood; no check penalty!) heavy shield, which is a pretty basic use but means I spent a discovery and a small amount of money for +2 to +7 AC, depending on enhancement level, without having to forfeit one of my hands from attacking. Totally worth it. At least green.

Tumor Familiar: It's great, possibly blue. Compsognathus means you're getting Imp. Init if nothing else. And UMD is a class skill, and you can xfer your ranks to it. Opens up Improved Familiar for even more awesome. I would not check out die for your master, though...it's HORRIBLE.

Vestigial Arm: As with Tentacle, except this also means you have a spot for any extra claw attacks you may gain. Say you have claws from race and Feral mutagen, for example. The arms would give you a spot for those claw attacks. For a str-user, they can 2H your main weapon while you still have the other hands for claws or the like to 2ndary with. Definitely at least green. Less useful for bombers, again, but they aren't the target audience for this one.

[The Random NPC]

I'd assume Rocket Bomb is red because it's Goblin only.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, Goblin does not boost Int, but it gives a whopping +4 to the 2nd most important stat, drops your super dump stat, and is small sized. So it's hardly a horrible race choice, just not the best one.

Also, again... Humans can take the feat to count as another race anyway.

Now, since it's short and mostly garbage (ie, easy to rate), I will rank the Grand Discoveries if the OP doesn't mind.

Awakened Intellect: +2 Int? That's your capstone? WEAKSAUCE.
Greater Change Alignment: I'm sure this has all sorts of interesting story potential and crap, and the sheer illogical mess that turning an outsider MADE OF EVIL into good-aligned is hilarious. But this is just not practically useful at all.
Eternal Youth: Oh, yay. It's Timeless Body even later than normal! You get to remove existing penalties, but unless you were actually sucking them down this whole time already, that probably is meaningless to you.
Fast Healing: This won't make a difference at level 20 in combat. Out of combat...you seriously still can't afford wands of CLW?
Philosopher's Stone: Ok, at least this one is interesting. You can create a minor artifact, for free! It can be used to make lots of money, or to make True Res oil, both nice. Your DM might allow using it for other things, too, who knows?
Poison Touch: I don't think this is even useful by level 20...
True Mutagen: Now hold on a sec. I know the numbers *look* good. But think about it. Your prime stat is not increasing. At all. Your 2nd most important is going up by only +2. Your 3rd most important physical stat, which you may very well not even actually care about (especially if dex-based and not str) gets a +4. Oh, and +2 natural armor...sexy... This really isn't so good. Possibly green for a str-based melee alchemist, but I think even that's seriously lowering your expectations for what a capstone should be.

[ArcanistSupreme]

This is a great project! I wouldn't mind formatting all of this into one place, if nobody else intends to. If not, my proposed layout is as follows:

Introduction
Color Coding
Class Overview
Bomber vs. Melee
Role Overview

Race Selection
Bomber Attribute Priorities
Bomber Race Comparison
Bomber Attribute Distribution
Melee Attribute Priorities
Melee Race Comparison
Melee Attribute Distribution

Class Features
Class Feature Overview
Bomber Discovery Overview
Melee Discovery Overview

Skills and Feats
Skill Selection
Bomber Feat Selection
Melee Feat Selection

Equipment
Weapons and Armor
Wondrous Items
Wands and Consumables
Why Potions are a Trap

Extracts
1st Level Extracts
2nd Level Extracts
3rd Level Extracts
4th Level Extracts
5th Level Extracts
6th Level Extracts

Archetypes
Bomber Archetypes
Melee Archetypes
IT'S A TRAP Archetypes

Multiclassing
Bomber Multiclassing
Bomber Prestige Classes
Melee Multiclassing
Melee Prestige Classes

Sample Builds

Also, I would like to note that I strongly prefer that color coded words be bolded. To me,

Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.

is leaps and bounds more readable than

Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.

/2 cents

[Squirrel_Dude]

Note: With all of these, I have not taken whether or not they are racially exclusive into account. I know that things like Blend (elf), and Paragon surge (1/2 elf) are, but am unsure about the other ones. Also, because the paizo pathfinder society reference document (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/indices/spelllists.html) is easier to copy+paste, that's the list of extracts that I'm using.

1st level extracts
Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
Ant Haul:
Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
Bomber's Eye: Bomber's want this, mutants don't
Comprehend Languages:
Crafter's Fortune:
Cure Light Wounds: If you get this, make sure to help someone make a wand of it.
Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
Detect Undead:
Disguise Self:
Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
Enlarge Person: A buff for you or your friends.
Expeditious Retreat:
Identify:
Illusion of Calm:
Jump:
Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
Linebreaker: Decent for a mutagen user
Longshot: Bombers get this
Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
Recharge Innate Magic:
Reduce Person: A buff for some friends, or a debuff for your enemies.
See Alignment:
Shield: Better for people staying out of melee
Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
Stone Fist:
Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this, but it's not that amazing.
Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
True Strike:
Urban Grace:
Vocal Alteration:
Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly

2nd Level Extracts
Ablative Barrier: When your nonlethal damage = your current health, you fall unconcious, so it's just not that great as a defense.
Acute Senses: Only not blue because I don't like things that only increase skill points.
Aid: I've mellowed on Aid. Temporary HP is nice, but if you have a bard, the morale bonus is meaningless
Alchemical Allocation:Find a potion you like, and you can keep it forever.
Alter Self:
Ancestral Regression: What is this, I don't even.
Animal Aspect: Like P. Panacea. It has many ways for you to use it.
Ant Haul, Communal: Communal spells don't work on your friends. Skip all of them.
Barkskin:
Bear's Endurance:
Bestow Weapon Proficiency:
Blistering Invective: More flavorful than effective.
Blood Blaze: I'm sure there is some random use for this, but it's not worth a spell
Blood Transcription: Creepy, and rarely useful.
Blur:
Bull's Strength:
Bullet Shield: Only useful if there are guns in your game and you think you'll be fighting people with guns.
Cat's Grace: Every Alchemist will probably want an increase in dex for some reason.
Certain Grip:
Cure Moderate Wounds:
Darkvision: Darkvision can be useful.
Defensive Shock: It's halfway decent damage, but once you cast it on yourself your allies can't buff you with touch spells anymore. No.
Delay Disease:
Delay Poison:
Detect Thoughts: Other classes are better at divination, but at this level it's still not a bad investment.
Eagle's Splendor: Not useful for you, but useful for friends.
Elemental Touch:
False Life:
Fire Breath:
Fox's Cunning:
Ghostly Disguise:
Invisibility:
Kinetic Reverberation: "Stop hitting yourself" Fun.
Levitate:
Minor Dream:
Owl's Wisdom:
Perceive Cues: Just use Acute Senses.
Poison:
Protection from Arrows:
Resist Energy:
Restoration, Lesser:
See Invisibility:
Shadow Bomb Admixture: Don't give enemies concealment, until you have a way to ignore it.
Sickening Strikes: If you're in melee, it's not that bad.
Skinsend: It's creepy but pretty interesting
Spider Climb:
Squeeze: Reduce person was 1 level ago. It's more useful.
Touch Injection: Be creative and find a use for that
Transmute Potion to Poison:
Undetectable Alignment: It has it's place, especially if you're evil, but it's a small place.
Vomit Swarm: You're lying if you say you like fighting swarms, you're lying if you wouldn't wish they were messing with the enemy caster instead of you.

3rd Level Extracts
Absorb Toxicity: For when you're walking the sewers. And weird.
Absorbing Touch: It's a glove of storing. Better for rogue types or maybe bombers. Be creative.
Age Resistance, Lesser: There's a way to take advantage of this, I'm sure. It just probably won't come into play unless the game is starting at higher levels, or your playing something like an orc who can roll into being middle aged at the start of a game.
Amplify Elixir: Be creative
Animal Aspect, Greater: As before
Arcane Sight: Alchemists don't get detect magic, and although it's a nice ability to have, others will probably do it better.
Battle Trance: Bonuses against fear and a small amount of temp HP, with a penalty to Int? No.
Beast Shape I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Bloodhound: Scent can be handy
Blood Scent:
Burrow: Burrowing can be useful, but Earthglide will be far better than this
Burst of Speed: Only somewhat useful if you're a character that would normally rely on tumble to get through threatened squares.
Countless Eyes: It's alright if you think you'll be fighting a bunch of rogues.
Cure Serious Wounds:
Darkvision, Communal: Communal spells still don't work on your friends
Delay Poison, Communal:
Displacement:
Draconic Reservoir: It's interesting, but normally if something is hitting you with fire it will be immune to the fire you hit it back with.
ElementalAura: Only interesting if you'll be wading into melee.
Endure Elements, Communal:
Eruptive Pustules:
Fire Trail: Flavorful/funny to imagine but ineffective
Fly:
Gaseous Form: Not that useful for someone who can't use any spells when in gaseous form
Haste: It's haste, but it's only for you
Heroism: A +2 to everything is normally nice
Lightning Lash Bomb Admixture: If enemies move they save or take damage. It would be higher if the damage wasn't just 1d6. Still not a bad pick for a bomber
Marionette Possession: Magic Jar, but only on willing subjects. There is a save, but it doesn't actually say how it works.
Monstrous Physique I: Polymorph still solves problems
Nondetection:
Paragon Surge: Hi Paragon Surge
Prehensile Pilfer:
Protection From Energy:
Protection from Arrows, Communal:
Rage:
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Clerics have had Remove X for two level now. Wizards just got it. Let them do it.
Remove Curse:
Remove Disease:
Resinous Skin: I don't see a use for this, even if you like to enter melee. I
Resist Energy, Communal:
Seek Thoughts:
Spider Climb, Communal:
Thorn Body: Useful if you'll be entering melee a bunch. Less helpful otherwise
Tongues: By the time you got this everyone else already has it and had it for a while. Get it from the wizard you really need it.
Undead Anatomy I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Vomit Twin: If the duration was min/level and not round/level it would be much more useful. Still being able to change places with it as teleport is sweet.
Water Breathing:

4th Level Extracts:
Absorbing Inhalation: For when the guy casts stinking cloud or cloudkill at you. And that's it.
Age Resistance:
Air Walk: This would be great, but...
Air Walk, Communal: Communal spells don't work on your friends.
Arcane Eye: Wizards have been doing this for 3 levels now. Forget it.
Beast Shape II: Polymorph is still useful
Cure Critical Wounds:
Darkvision, Greater: I would rather have 40 ft. blindsight.
Death Ward: Enervation and death effects aren't what they were in previous editions, and the cleric has been doing this for a while, now.
Detonate: If you want a damage spell. Get this or dragon's breath.
Discern Lies: The Bard is going to beat the saving throw.
Dragon's Breath: If you want a damage spell, get this OR detonate.
Earth Glide: It has it's place
Echolocation:.
Elemental Body I: It's still useful
False Life, Greater: At this level 2d10+X is less helpful, but it's still not the worst thing to have
Fire Shield:
Fluid Form: You had me at increasing Reach 10 ft.
Freedom of Movement: No matter what level. The ability to just say no to a grappler is always nice.
Healing Warmth: Turning ignored damage into healing isn't that terrible.
Invisibility, Greater:
Miasmatic Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Monstrous Physique II: It's still useful.
Mutagenic Touch: This could be amazing (No save? No SR? Not mind effecting?). But it's only a -4 penalty to any mental stat, and you lose the Mutagen effect on yourself.
Neutralize Poison:
Restoration: I prefer this to Death Ward.
Scorching Ash Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Spell Immunity: It's only useful if you know an enemy's (in that hands of the GM) favorite tactic.
Stoneskin: Expensive, but a good buff.
Tongues, Communal:
Touch of Slime: Green slime is mean, but not with your mediocre saves.
Universal Formula: Forgot to ready X extract against the enemy? Now you didn't. This is one of the big reasons to try and fill out your formulae book as much as possible. This extract gives you access to any of them at a moment's notice.
Vermin Shape I: It's still useful.
Viper Bomb Admixture: Might be nice if you can find a really nasty venom to put on your enemy.
Vitriolic Mist: I'm rating this the same as fire shield but in reality it's worse.

Feel free to disagree and criticize, it wouldn't be the first time. I found myself waffling on some of these ratings while I wrote them.

[Corinath]

I'm completely lost here.

Where are you all getting this information? All I see for alchemical items are things like Instant Rope from the A&EG. Is there a grand compilation of Alchemical items with the book reference listed somewhere?

[Khosan]

I'm completely lost here.

Where are you all getting this information? All I see for alchemical items are things like Instant Rope from the A&EG. Is there a grand compilation of Alchemical items with the book reference listed somewhere?

Indeed. Right here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances).

EDIT: Or, if you're confused about the Extract list, that's from here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/formulae-lists---alchemist).

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure if this matters but Bomber's Eye only increases the range of thrown weapons by 10ft, while Longshot increases the range increment. Would that mean a Longshot thrown weapon can be thrown up to 150ft while a Bomber's Eye thrown weapon can be thrown 60ft?

[Squirrel_Dude]

For bombers the bomber's eye matters more as they both increase the distance of the weapon by 10 ft., but bomber's eye also provides an additional +1 bonus. Longshot is slightly nicer because it lasts minutes per level and not rounds per level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to need to do the extracts, I guess... A lot of the cyan ones are worth green at best, and then on the other hand the absolute best extract on the entire list, Alchemical Allocation, is rated only green... I just completely disagree with a great deal of it.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I don't know why Alchemical Allocation doesn't impress me, like I know it should. My thought process went kind of like this:

"Oh man, never expending potions, that could be amazing. Now you wouldn't be spending all that money on making the same potion you like over and over."

"But potions kind of suck."


In reality, I think for some reason I was stuck on them being healing potions, and not more useful ones. 1 invisibility potion lasting forever, sweet.


I'll claim that it was late as the reason that you disagree with them. Even though it was today when I looked through levels 2 to 4. Whatever. Running through the list again, I can see where and why you would disagree with the ratings. I might just be overrating some things because I'm just not wowed by the list like I should be.

But I'm also the guy who has yet to use a polymorph (beast shape, form of the dragon, etc.) in Pathfinder (playing a wizard in two straight games) for some reason.

[grarrrg]

Infuse Mutagen - Not really seeing a purpose to this, possibly red.

The main purpose is to have more than one Mutagen available if/when needed.

Mutagens take an hour to prepare, and you can only have one prepared at a time.
Depending on the adventuring day, you may not have time to prepare a second one. So you may be limited to one "hulk-out" per day.

With Infuse Mutagen you can have a couple 'spares' to carry around, just in case.

I still agree that it is a rather poor choice overall, and the cost is fairly high for what you get out of it.

If you do like to "hulk-out" often, then just 1 level of Master Chymist gives you 2/day 'no mutagen needed' uses of Mutagen.


Speaking of Master Chymist...
Not many PrC's (other than the Master) really do much to help the Alchemist, mainly due to the "not being an actual caster" bit.
One suggestion would be the Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) for 2 levels to gain INT-to-AC (instead of DEX).
Admittedly, this would not be for most Alchemist builds, due to the Pre-Reqs, and loss of Bombs/Extracts and such.
Among the pre-reqs are 3 feats (none are considered "great" feats, but they aren't all stinkers either), and the 2 Martial Weapon prof req.
But being able to (semi-)dump DEX does have it's advantages.

[avr]

I'm not sure if this matters but Bomber's Eye only increases the range of thrown weapons by 10ft, while Longshot increases the range increment. Would that mean a Longshot thrown weapon can be thrown up to 150ft while a Bomber's Eye thrown weapon can be thrown 60ft?
The only listed range is the range increment, I'm pretty sure Bomber's Eye affects this.

[avr]

Re Squirrel Dude's list:

Targeted bomb admixture is nice for bombers doing damage, but less useful if your bombs are primarily used for control and of course entirely useless to a vivisectionist. Not cyan.

Alchemists are good at making stuff. Crafters fortune makes them better. Orange perhaps?

Elemental touch - vivisectionists love this. If you're doing split ratings for vivisectionists, blue for them, if not, green?

Heroic fortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroic-fortune) is a handy utility/buff missing from your list of 2nd level extracts. Green or blue IMO.

Haste affects the alchemist only. If possible, get someone else to cast it so it affects the whole party. Green.

Marionette possession only affects willing targets. Magic Jar it's not. Orange.

Nondetection is also missing from your list. Situational, orange or green.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Agree on targeted admixture. Thought it was better than it is the first time I read it. It's probably only green. It just doesn't have all that much punch behind it.

Heroic Fortune wasn't included because it's only there for the alternate ruleset of hero points.

Somehow I didn't see this line: "save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist." Allow me to go change every "communal" spell's rating to not worth it because it only effects the alchemist.

On marionette possession. Excuse me while I get confused with the wording of the spell. The one that says there is a will save (see text) and then doesn't mention the will save anywhere in the text

Could have sworn nondetection was on my list. Nope, just undetectable alignment. I'll fix that. I agree with the orange or green.

I don't like crafter's fortune because it's only a +5 bonus to any one craft skill. If you're already good at alchemy it's one of the last things you'll want to add to your formulae book.

Anyway, I'm going to edit that list a bit. Cause waffling is what I do.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A rough mock up of the first post of the guide:


The Alchemist

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mad-scientist2_mtg-lab-maniac_3244.jpg

Credits:
This handbook is the result of the collaborative efforts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290974) of the following people (in order of appearance): Novawurmson, StreamOfTheSky, Squirrel_Dude, CockroachTeaParty, avr, The Random NPC, Arcanist Supreme, grarrrg, and Chained Birds.

Contents

1 - Introduction
Class Overview
Color Coding
Bomber vs. Melee
Role Overview

2 - Race Selection
Bomber Attribute Priorities
Bomber Race Comparison
Bomber Attribute Distribution
Melee Attribute Priorities
Melee Race Comparison
Melee Attribute Distribution

3 - Class Features
Class Feature Overview
Bomber Discovery Overview
Melee Discovery Overview

4 - Skills and Feats
Skill Selection
Bomber Feat Selection
Melee Feat Selection

5 - Equipment
Weapons and Armor
Wondrous Items
Wands and Consumables
Potions and Poisons

6 - Extracts
1st Level Extracts
2nd Level Extracts
3rd Level Extracts
4th Level Extracts
5th Level Extracts
6th Level Extracts

7 - Archetypes
Bomber Archetypes
Melee Archetypes

8 - Multiclassing
Bomber Multiclassing
Bomber Prestige Classes
Melee Multiclassing
Melee Prestige Classes

9 - Sample Builds

Introduction

Class Overview
Insert literary-quality work of stunning brilliance here, eloquently describing what makes the alchemist unique and sets this class apart from every other class.

Color Coding
This guide uses the following rating system:
Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.


Bomber vs. Melee
The alchemist is an odd class; it seems to encourage wading into melee at the same time it encourages peppering enemies with bombs from afar. When it comes to building your alchemist, you have to decide if you want a Jekyll/Hyde melee brute or a mad bomber that debuffs and dissolves his foes. Otherwise, you will end up with a character that is capable of doing both, but fails to excel in the way a dedicated Bomber/Melee Alchemist would.

- The Bomber
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/014/8/7/Fighting_Combat_Alchemist_by_FStitz.jpg

Pros:
Lot's of debuff potential
Decent damage
Good utility
More stuff I can't think of

Cons:
Fragile
Lacks the damage of a dedicated blaster
AoE damage mediocre at best by mid-high levels
More stuff I can't think of

- The Brute
http://gamerscrib.net/pics/bane.JPG

Pros:
Potential to soak up damage
Potential to dish out plenty of damage
Self buffs offer utility that other fighters lack
More stuff I can't think of

Cons:
Poor will saves
Lackluster bombs
More stuff I can't think of

Role Overview
In the words of Chained Birds:

As an Alchemist, you are given several rolls to choose from,

Buffer: You can give yourself many of the common buffs used on the wizard's spell list + a few nifty Alchemist only buffs for your bombs. You also have a mutagen that is pretty much an awesome buff that does either 1 of the following: Make you Stronger but Dumber, Make you more Dexterous but crazy, or Make you Tougher but less Attractive.
If you take the right discoveries you can give these buffs, and even your mutagen to another guy. You can also change your mutagen to do pretty much the exact opposite of what it used to do, meaning it improves your mental stats by reducing your physical ones.

Fighter: If you focus on improving your mutagen, you can be a fairly competent warrior. Your improved strengths from the mutagen, coupled with your own buffs can make you quite the intimidating force, though your mental stats would probably drag behind. Think Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Monster.

Crowd Control: First few levels, a bomber Alchemist (Traditional Alchemist) will be the bane of all hordes as anything you throw that does splash damage does extra damage equal to your Int Mod! Your bombs are free alchemist's fire that get progressively stronger making your splash damage better. Splash starts to go unnoticed towards mid-to-late game, but your bombs now do more than just blow stuff up. They can freeze and stagger, poison and obscure, instant kill and maim, shock and awe, or whatever you are going for for your particular Bomber.

Crafter: They get brew potion as a bonus feat... So you can make cheap potions to share with your friends. You can also use your discoverys to make a caster lvl 1 potion into a caster lvl X potion when you drink it where X is your lvl; You can also extend the effect generated by the potion to double its usual duration. That's something more alchemists can do unless an archetype trades in the free feat for something a little more suited for your alchemist theme.

Utility: Not as good as a wizard by far, but really what is? Alchemists have a good extract list (spell list) and can get some good mileage out of it. Alchemist can make an extract on the spot (1 minute) if necessary as long as they have at least an unused "extract slot" (spell slot) available for the day, so that can be useful.

I'll have to ask Chained Birds if we can quote him, unless someone would like to rewrite that section.

Thoughts? Comments? Complete and utter disagreements?

[Squirrel_Dude]

And now to drive StreamoftheSky crazy by rating more extracts. I've also edited many of the ratings I already gave. Waffling. It's what I do.

Extracts
1st level extracts
Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
Ant Haul: You have a fighter/paladin/crazy third option with high strength.
Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
Bomber's Eye: The problem here is the duration. 1 round/level just isn't very helpful. Longshot will probably be more useful, even with the +1 attack bonus.
Comprehend Languages:
Crafter's Fortune: Unless you really need to make those crafting DCs, this probably won't be helping you too much in the long run.
Cure Light Wounds: If you get this, make sure to help someone make a wand of it.
Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
Detect Undead:
Disguise Self:
Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
Enlarge Person: A buff for mutagen users looking to hit harder.
Expeditious Retreat: +30 ft. move speed for 1 min/level. Handy.
Identify: It serves it's purpose.
Illusion of Calm: Don't provoke AOOs when you throw your bombs, drink your extracts, or move out of a threatened square. Very handy.
Jump: Like that it improves over time. You may want it in your formulae book, but probably won't prepare it all that often.
Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
Linebreaker: Expeditious retreat lasts as long and provides a 10 ft. greater increase in speed, but doesn't have the +2 bonus to Bull Rush or Overrun. I'd rather have expeditious retreat.
Longshot: Lose the bonus to hit, but the minute duration means that you can throw it on at the start of combat and expect it to last.
Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
Recharge Innate Magic:
Reduce Person: A buff for bombers who would prefer to not be hit.
See Alignment:
Shield: Better for people staying out of melee, and better overall
Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
Stone Fist: 1d6 damage just isn't that great.
Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this, but it's not that amazing.
Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
True Strike: It's the auto-hit button. All alchemists will be trying to hit something at some point. You'll want this in your arsenal
Urban Grace: If you're not in an Urban setting, skip.
Vocal Alteration: Only helpful if you're doing some serious disguising.
Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly

2nd Level Extracts
Ablative Barrier: When your nonlethal damage = your current health, you fall unconcious, so it's just not that great as a defense.
Acute Senses: Only not blue because I don't like things that only increase skill checks. Still, it's an increasing bonus to the best skill in the game.
Aid: Temp HP and a bonus to hit, and minute/level duration. Solid.
Alchemical Allocation:Find a potion you like, and you can keep it forever.
Alter Self: Use this to get yourself scent, darkvision, low-light vision, or increases to strength or dex for a little bit.
Ancestral Regression: What is this, I don't even.
Animal Aspect: Like P. Panacea. It has many ways for you to use it.
Ant Haul, Communal: Extracts only affect the person who is drinking them, so unless you have the Infusing Discovery you should completely avoid taking these.
Barkskin:
Bear's Endurance:
Bestow Weapon Proficiency: May be better than I'm giving it credit for.
Blistering Invective: More flavorful than effective.
Blood Blaze: I'm sure there is some random use for this, but it's not worth a spell
Blood Transcription: Creepy/[evil], and rarely all that useful. If you killed a wizard, just grab his spellbook.
Blur: Miss chance is nice
Bull's Strength: More useful if you're as strength based mutagener
Bullet Shield: Only useful if there are guns in your game and you think you'll be fighting people with guns.
Cat's Grace: Every Alchemist will probably want an increase in dex for some reason. It loses it's luster after a while, being an enhancement bonus.
Certain Grip:
Cure Moderate Wounds:
Darkvision: Get it through alter self.
Defensive Shock: It's halfway decent damage, but once you cast it on yourself your allies can't buff/heal you with touch spells anymore without taking damage themselves. No.
Delay Disease:
Delay Poison:
Detect Thoughts: Other classes are better at divination, but at this level it's still not a bad investment.
Eagle's Splendor: Most of the time, you dont' care about charisma.
Elemental Touch:
False Life: On average, this is only going to give you 1 more hitpoint than Aid, without the extra morale bonus. Go with Aid for your temp HP.
Fire Breath:
Fox's Cunning: Improves your int. This is probably a thing you like.
Ghostly Disguise:
Invisibility:
Kinetic Reverberation: It's fun, but it would be better if it wasn't a fort save.
Levitate:
Minor Dream:
Owl's Wisdom:
Perceive Cues: Just use Acute Senses.
Poison:
Protection from Arrows:
Resist Energy: It won't win combats, but it will help in many of them.
Restoration, Lesser:
See Invisibility:
Shadow Bomb Admixture: Don't give enemies concealment, until you have a way to ignore it.
Sickening Strikes: If you're into melee, it's not that bad.
Skinsend: It's interesting but risky. Leans towards orange.
Spider Climb:
Squeeze: Reduce person was 1 level ago. It's more useful.
Touch Injection: Be creative and find a use for that
Transmute Potion to Poison:
Undetectable Alignment: It has it's place, especially if you're evil, but it's a small place.
Vomit Swarm: You're lying if you say you like fighting swarms, you're lying if you wouldn't wish they were messing with the enemy caster instead of you.

3rd Level Extracts
Absorb Toxicity: For when you're walking the sewers. And weird.
Absorbing Touch: It's a glove of storing. Better for rogue types or maybe bombers. Be creative.
Age Resistance,Lesser: If you're in a game where you're allowed to start at an advanced age, take this. It's a free stat boost. If not, or you don't think you'll get there, skip it.
Amplify Elixir: Be creative
Animal Aspect, Greater: As before
Arcane Sight: Alchemists don't get detect magic, and although it's a nice ability to have, others will probably do it better.
Battle Trance: Bonuses against fear and a small amount of temp HP, with a penalty to Int? No.
Beast Shape I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Bloodhound: Scent can be handy, but you can get it with Alter Self 1 level ago.
Blood Scent:
Burrow: Burrowing can be useful, but Earthglide will be far better than this
Burst of Speed: Only somewhat useful if you're a character that would normally rely on tumble to get through threatened squares.
Countless Eyes: It's alright if you think you'll be fighting a bunch of rogues.
Cure Serious Wounds:
Darkvision, Communal: Communal spells still don't work on your friends
Delay Poison, Communal:
Displacement:
Draconic Reservoir: It's interesting, but normally if something is hitting you with fire it will be immune to the fire you hit it back with.
ElementalAura: Only interesting if you'll be wading into melee.
Endure Elements, Communal:
Eruptive Pustules:
Fire Trail: Flavorful/funny to imagine but ineffective
Fly: Flight is very nice (practically necessary at high levels). There are way to get it other than this spell.
Gaseous Form: Not that useful for someone who can't use any spells when in gaseous form
Haste: It's haste, but it's only for you
Heroism: A +2 to everything is normally nice
Lightning Lash Bomb Admixture: If enemies move they save or take damage. It would be higher if the damage wasn't just 1d6. Still not a bad pick for a bomber
Marionette Possession: Magic Jar, but only on willing subjects. There is a save, but it doesn't actually say how it works.
Monstrous Physique I: Polymorph still solves problems
Nondetection:
Paragon Surge: Hi Paragon Surge
Prehensile Pilfer:
Protection From Energy:
Protection from Arrows, Communal:
Rage:
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Clerics have had Remove X for two level now. Wizards just got it. Let them do it.
Remove Curse: Curses suck, but someone else probably has this handled.
Remove Disease:
Resinous Skin: I don't see a use for this, even if you like to enter melee. I
Resist Energy, Communal:
Seek Thoughts:
Spider Climb, Communal:
Thorn Body: Useful if you'll be entering melee a bunch. Less helpful otherwise
Tongues: By the time you got this everyone else already has it and had it for a while. Get it from the wizard you really need it.
Undead Anatomy I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Vomit Twin: If the duration was min/level and not round/level it would be much more useful. Still being able to change places with it as teleport is sweet.
Water Breathing:

4th Level Extracts:
Absorbing Inhalation: For when the guy casts stinking cloud or cloudkill at you. And that's it.
Age Resistance: As the previous version. If you can take advantage of it, do. If you can't, skip it.
Air Walk: You should get this OR the communal version.
Air Walk, Communal: The only communal spell on your list that is the same level as the original. Get this on OR the original. Not both.
Arcane Eye: Wizards have been doing this for 3 levels now. Forget it.
Beast Shape II: Polymorph is still useful
Cure Critical Wounds:
Darkvision, Greater: I would rather have 40 ft. blindsight.
Death Ward: Enervation and death effects aren't what they were in previous editions, and the cleric has been doing this for a while, now.
Detonate: If you want a damage spell, get this OR dragon's breath.
Discern Lies: The Bard is going to beat the saving throw.
Dragon's Breath: If you want a damage spell, get this OR detonate.
Earth Glide: It has it's place
Echolocation:.
Elemental Body I: It's still useful
False Life, Greater: At this level 2d10+X is less helpful, but it's still not the worst thing to have
Fire Shield:
Fluid Form: You had me at increasing Reach 10 ft.
Freedom of Movement: No matter what level. The ability to just say no to a grappler is always nice.
Healing Warmth: Turning ignored damage into healing isn't that terrible.
Invisibility, Greater:
Miasmatic Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Monstrous Physique II: It's still useful, but the other ones are better.
Mutagenic Touch: This could be amazing (No save? No SR? Not mind effecting?). But it's only a -4 penalty to any mental stat, and you lose the Mutagen effect on yourself.
Neutralize Poison:
Restoration: I prefer this to Death Ward.
Scorching Ash Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Spell Immunity: It's only useful if you know an enemy's (in that hands of the GM) favorite tactic.
Stoneskin: Expensive, but a good buff.
Tongues, Communal:
Touch of Slime: Green slime is mean, but not with your mediocre save DCs.
Universal Formula: Forgot to ready X extract against the enemy? Now you didn't. This extract gives you access to any of them at a moment's notice.
Vermin Shape I: It's still useful.
Viper Bomb Admixture: Might be nice if you can find a really nasty venom to put on your enemy.
Vitriolic Mist: I'm rating this the same as fire shield but in reality it's worse.

5th level extracts
Age Resistance, Greater:Free boost to stats, or not very helpful. As before
Beast Shape III: Polymorph spell mostly handles this for you now.
Contact Other Plane:
Delayed Consumption: It's contingency, but you're only allowed to do it with one extract at a time, and you can choose when it happens.
Dream:
Dust Form: Handy if you can use extracts while in it (you can use magic items, after all). Not that great otherwise.
Elemental Body II: Polymorph spell mostly handles this for you now.
Elude Time: It's kind of like Sanctuary except no one can do anything to you, and you can't do anything to them.
Half-blood Extraction: Wut.
Languid Bomb Admixture: Fatigue is a pretty good status to inflict on enemies. Edges towards blue.
Magic Jar: Shows up a little late, but it's still useful.
Monstrous Physique III: Polymorph will probably do the trick.
Nightmare:
Overland Flight: Still nice, even if it is showing up a bit late.
Planar Adaptation:
Plant Shape I: Polymorph doesn't do Plants, Undead, or Vermin.
Polymorph: It's Polymorph.
Resurgent Transformation: The benefits are nice, but you take 1d4 points of Int. and Wis. damage when it activates. Be very careful or avoid altogether.
Sending:
Spell Resistance:
Stoneskin, Communal:
Undead Anatomy II: Polymorph doesn't do Undead, Vermin, or Plants.
Vermin Shape II: Polymorph doesn't do Vermin, Plants or Undead.


6th level extracts
Analyze Dweomer:
Beast Shape IV: Polymorph is more versatile for problem solving, but your higher level ones will pack more of a punch.
Caging Bomb Admixture: Awesome
Elemental Body III: Now with immunity to critical hits and sneak attack.
Eyebite: Close to red
Form of the Dragon I: Nice, but only medium size
Giant Form I:
Heal:
Mislead:
Monstrous Physique IV: Just not as strong as the other polymorph options.
Plant Shape II: Not that many benefits to be gained, and you can only go to large size.
Shadow Walk: Another spell showing up a bit late for you.
Statue:
Transformation: After you transform you can't cast spells.
True Seeing: It's nice, but it's showing up really late for you.
Twin Form:
Undead Anatomy III:
Walk through Space: There are many other ways to accomplish this.
Wind Walk: Someone else probably has a way to teleport you where you need to go at this point.


Also, let's finish up the ARG races, but looking at the uncommon races. Before we go to much further, I'll add that in many cases I find that the Uncommon races are either poorly balanced options (Samsaran) have some really weird fluff baggage (Changeling), or a little of both (Strix).

For the Bomber
Uncommon Races

Changeling: Bonus to Dex, but a Penalty to con, with no unique favored class options.
Duergar: Slightly better than the dwarf, with their unique SLAs.
Gillmen: Don't help any of your key stats, and dump Wisdom when you already have a bad Will save.
Grippli: Bonus to dex, and penalty to strength. Small size and they still have normal speed. If only there was a bonus to Int, too.
Kitsune: Similar to Grippli in that they dump your least important stat, but don't help Int.
Merfolk: Really only for aquatic campaigns, and no bonus to Int.
Nagaji: Ugh. No.
Samsarans: If your DM rules that you can take advantage of mystic past life then it's blue. Green if you can't. It still has a bonus to Int, after all.
Strix: Fly speed and a bonus to dex, but with the fluff baggage of hating all humans.
Sulis: As Nagaji.
Svirfneblins: You could do worse
Vanara: No bonus to Int, but good favored class options, and alterante racial traits.
Vishkanyas:
Wayangs: Bonus to Int and Dex? Sold.


For the Mutagen User
Uncommon Races

Changeling: Penalty to con really hurts.
Duergar: Slightly better than the dwarf, with their unique SLAs.
Gillmen: Bonus to con more helpful for you than a bomb throwing friend
Grippli: Not a bad set of traits for a dex based fighter.
Kitsune: Again, as Grippli. Slightly better with larger size.
Merfolk: That land speed is just awful, toping out at 15 ft.
Nagaji: There's a bonus to strength, and everything else is pretty lame.
Samsarans: Green with mystic past life, orange without it. Penalty to con means more to you.
Strix: Green if dex based. Orange if strength based. Flight is definitely nice, though.
Sulis: As Nagaji
Svirfneblins: Closer to orange than to blue for a mutagen user.
Vanaras: As Grippli.
Vishkanyas:
Wayangs: Small size hurts a bit, but not too much.

[Novawurmson]

@ArcanistSupreme - I love the layout! It's so much better than what I would have done XD (See: My barbarian guide).

@Squirrel_Dude - I'll throw my opinions on the extracts up soon. The only disagreement I'm definitely seeing is with Heal; it's probably the best (and one of the few good) healing spell in the game.

I have some points to make about everything, but work calls soon, and I need to get ready.

[Corlindale]

I think Anticipate Peril might need a slightly higher rating - our alchemist uses it all the time and it really makes a noticeable difference. And it's one of very few ways to buff an extremely important stat.
Often you'll be able to know in advance when an encounter might be coming (ex. you're walking around in a dungeon).

Fox Cunning and Cat's Grace as sky blue is also a bit debateable. Most bombers are going to definetely get a +2 Int and probably a +2 dex item, cutting the bonus in half early on. I'd say alchemical allocation is better than either, since it can duplicate them and any other effect you have a potion of, giving better versatility. You aren't going to be using them in combat anyway, so might as well go with AA.

Ratings of some third level extract should perhaps also take the existence of AA into account. There's little reason to use a third level slot to prepare Heroism when you can just use AA one slot lower. Once again, you'll almost never be using Heroism mid-combat anyway. A similar argument could be made with other 3rd level extracts that also exist as potions (Fly may sometimes be an exception, since you might need to use it mid-combat and then AA is impractical).

[KutuluKultist]

Concerning extracts, ant-haul and cure light wounds should be higher rated.

Cure light wounds: It's not great, but because it costs you next to nothing to learn but will be useful whenever you can rest and heal by converting a renewable resource into healing. That seems useful enough to me to warrant a green rating.

Ant-haul helps with the strength dump. Again, it cost next to nothing to learn and by the time it lasts all day, spending a first level slot on it is hardly cutting into your abilities. Alchemicals are heavy, too. Again, I would rate it green. It's commonly useful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ratings of the uncommon races looks solid. The only thing I'd change is Strix. It is Blue for bombers, but for melee, I think it's green at best (orange if not a dex-based build).

Flying is always useful for a ranged person to avoid harm entirely; for melee it's more of a situational thing when you need it to reach an enemy and you don't need/desire it all the time, it's just nice to have.

Further, a melee alchemist is much more likely to be able to afford Beastmorph archetype and/or the Wings discovery, while as the bomber has more directly useful archetypes that conflict and is much more heavily pressed for discovery slots.

When I feel like spending the time, I'll try and go over extracts...

[Squirrel_Dude]

A rough mock up of the first post of the guide:


The Alchemist

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mad-scientist2_mtg-lab-maniac_3244.jpg

Credits:
This handbook is the result of the collaborative efforts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290974) of the following people (in order of appearance): Novawurmson, StreamOfTheSky, Squirrel_Dude, CockroachTeaParty, avr, The Random NPC, Arcanist Supreme, grarrrg, and Chained Birds.

Contents

1 - Introduction
Class Overview
Color Coding
Bomber vs. Melee
Role Overview

2 - Race Selection
Bomber Attribute Priorities
Bomber Race Comparison
Bomber Attribute Distribution
Melee Attribute Priorities
Melee Race Comparison
Melee Attribute Distribution

3 - Class Features
Class Feature Overview
Bomber Discovery Overview
Melee Discovery Overview

4 - Skills and Feats
Skill Selection
Bomber Feat Selection
Melee Feat Selection

5 - Equipment
Weapons and Armor
Wondrous Items
Wands and Consumables
Potions and Poisons

6 - Extracts
1st Level Extracts
2nd Level Extracts
3rd Level Extracts
4th Level Extracts
5th Level Extracts
6th Level Extracts

7 - Archetypes
Bomber Archetypes
Melee Archetypes

8 - Multiclassing
Bomber Multiclassing
Bomber Prestige Classes
Melee Multiclassing
Melee Prestige Classes

9 - Sample Builds

Introduction

Class Overview
Insert literary-quality work of stunning brilliance here, eloquently describing what makes the alchemist unique and sets this class apart from every other class.

Color Coding
This guide uses the following rating system:
Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.


Bomber vs. Melee
The alchemist is an odd class; it seems to encourage wading into melee at the same time it encourages peppering enemies with bombs from afar. When it comes to building your alchemist, you have to decide if you want a Jekyll/Hyde melee brute or a mad bomber that debuffs and dissolves his foes. Otherwise, you will end up with a character that is capable of doing both, but fails to excel in the way a dedicated Bomber/Melee Alchemist would.

- The Bomber
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/014/8/7/Fighting_Combat_Alchemist_by_FStitz.jpg

Pros:
Lot's of debuff potential
Decent damage
Good utility
More stuff I can't think of

Cons:
Fragile
Lacks the damage of a dedicated blaster
AoE damage mediocre at best by mid-high levels
More stuff I can't think of

- The Brute
http://gamerscrib.net/pics/bane.JPG

Pros:
Potential to soak up damage
Potential to dish out plenty of damage
Self buffs offer utility that other fighters lack
More stuff I can't think of

Cons:
Poor will saves
Lackluster bombs
More stuff I can't think of

Role Overview
In the words of Chained Birds:


I'll have to ask Chained Birds if we can quote him, unless someone would like to rewrite that section.

Thoughts? Comments? Complete and utter disagreements?
The picture for the bomber might be a bit large. Here's my recommendation for the mutagen user, at least in terms the character that I think could represent it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZcvxspKp-5g/T9ObUfRu0tI/AAAAAAABMd0/K3SENScR2Q4/s400/118290-103378-bane_super.jpg
As for layout, I would move extracts and archetypes up before the equipment list. From there I would move archetypes up above feats, but below skills. I would suggest the order become this:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills
5 - Archetypes
6 - Feats
7 - Extracts
8 - Equipment
9 - Multiclassing
10 - Sample Builds

[ArcanistSupreme]

The picture for the bomber might be a bit large. Here's my recommendation for the mutagen user, at least in terms the character that I think could represent it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZcvxspKp-5g/T9ObUfRu0tI/AAAAAAABMd0/K3SENScR2Q4/s400/118290-103378-bane_super.jpg
As for layout, I would move extracts and archetypes up before the equipment list. From there I would move archetypes up above feats, but below skills. I would suggest the order become this:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills
5 - Archetypes
6 - Feats
7 - Extracts
8 - Equipment
9 - Multiclassing
10 - Sample Builds

I think that it makes sense to move equipment lower, but it doesn't make sense in my mind to split skills and feats when skills is essentially a subsection. Archetypes and multiclassing also dovetail together so nicely that I'll probably roll that into one section (especially since multiclassing seems to be Master Chymist or don't). My proposed new order is as follows:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills and Feats
5 - Archetypes and Multiclassing
6 - Extracts
7 - Equipment
8 - Sample Builds

As for the images, I'm sure with a little fiddling I can resize them to not take up the entire screen. And speaking of images, let's see 'em! No guide is complete without awesome art!

WARNING: Some of these are absurdly big and I'm too tired to fix them right now.

Bomber images:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGFbwllHetcPPJqFFCkt3On0m4HhrZV m2K2puSXvQgKbLWwEGFzg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1121-GoblinAlchemist.jpg
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs25/PRE/i/2008/115/7/b/goblin_bomber_squad_done_by_travsthebean.jpg


Mutagen images:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DQNUlgd5xAY/Tt8Wnb8TdzI/AAAAAAAAArQ/91wWz6_HaEA/s1600/MiniAlchemist.jpg
http://randomc.net/image/Fullmetal%20Alchemist/Fullmetal%20Alchemist%20-%2018%20-%20Large%2009.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s292/Loba87/snapshot20090504115037.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109662/3156720-mr-hyde.jpg

General images:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Ronule/101029044332704240.jpg
http://newagesearch.com/images/alchemical.JPG
http://irontavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/paizo-Alchemy.jpg
http://kaleidoscopeydp.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/dr-jekyll-hyde-image.jpg
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/355/5/3/alchemy_by_jonhodgson-d35bri8.jpg
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/362/d/4/age_past_alchemy_by_tsabo6-d35uoww.jpg
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/010/1/9/spell_books_by_tsabo6-d36v4sp.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/173/4/8/alchemy_by_applesin-d6a4mgl.jpg

[Crustypeanut]

Bump, because the Alchemist is an awesome class!

Also I'd like to throw in my 2 cents when it comes to Poison-based Vivisectionist Alchemists: Daggermark Poisoner PrC. 6 levels of that allows you to sacrifice your sneak attack to increase the DC of your poison for each dice lost. Now.. this obviously means that your damage goes down horribly. But just imagine hitting someone with an extremely nasty Con poison that you use Concentrated, use Malignant Poison on, and sacrificed, say, 5 dice of sneak attack? Not to mention has 3-4 uses due to Sticky Poison?

Now, your Poison's DC is up by +11 and is dealing Con damage. Even Greenblood Oil would have a DC 24 Fort save. Use something more expensive like Deathblade for a DC 31 Fort save, gaining a +2 DC per dose you pump into them. Even Dragon Bile, which does Strength Damage, could be potentially useful with its DC 37 Fort Save. With a +22 Fort Save, an Ancient Red Dragon would need to roll a 15+ on the first dose of that Dragon Bile. You could turn an Ancient Red Dragon into a 0-strength weakling with that poison.

Granted, if you're sacrificing sneak attacks to increase the DC of your poison.. you're only going to prolong combat (Unless you're using Con-based poisons, then it is more likely worth the pay off). Con-based poisons also are useless against Undead, even if you CAN poison them thanks to the discovery that allows you to do so.

I'd say that poisons, when used properly, are best for campaigns where straight up combat is something you wish to AVOID. That, or campaigns were you want to take prisoners alive. Sacrifice Sneak Attack damage to from your Sap or other non-lethal weapon to poison someone with a higher-DC Drow Poison, for example. One hit and they're out cold. Or perhaps poison someone's drink to kill or render them unconcious, avoiding attention.

Overall though.. poisons don't seem to be 'as' good as normal alchemists who just blow things up. But they have their niche.. a more subtle niche. One that I find fascinating.

[StreamOfTheSky]

*Looks at Daggermark Poisoner (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/prestige-classes/daggermark-poisoner)*

My first thought is, again, HOLY CRAP I HATE MEDIUM BAB PRESTIGE CLASSES MEANT FOR MEDIUM BAB CLASSES THAT YOU ENTER AT LEVEL 6. "Did you enjoy not advancing your BAB last level? Here, have another! Because ending up for a while with BAB comparable to a wizard isn't much of an issue, it was so much more important to nerf PrC save progressions to prevent 'abuse', y'know?"
/short rant

Entry Requirements: Those skill ranks are actually pretty expensive, considering all but Alchemy are horrible skills. If you're entering as a Viv., which...you should be if you plan to sack SA dice..., then the Heal ranks are literally worthless (because you use know nature for that). The 1000 gp b**** tax isn't that harsh, but is kind of a slap in the face when a one of a poisoner's biggest problems is money. Entering right at 6 is extra painful because it means forsaking all the important Alchemist level 6 required poison discoveries, maybe it's better to enter at 7.

Class features...

No extract progression at all, same HD, BAB, and skill points, worse saves... Not to mention not advancing other level-based stuff like for discovery qualification. The extract and level progression loss alone basically guarantee this PrC will nerf you, no matter how good its class features are. Anyway...

Master Poisoner: The first half of this is strictly inferior to the Alchemy class feature you're no longer advancing. The latter half is just the Poison Conversion discovery you could've gotten from Alchemist already.

Poison Resistance: Thanks to the level stacking (why don't they do this more?), this is solidly...about identical to what Alchemist would grant anyway. Still an improvement from Master Poisoner... If Alchemist levels stack even if you swapped poison resist/immunity for an archetype, this is pretty sweet.

Quick Poisoning: Largely redundant w/ Alchemist; might be decent if you lost said features to an archetype.

Toxic Apothecary: You get a lame cantrip. I don't know why Alchemists don't get cantrips... Still, this is pretty weaksauce.

Toxic Trick: Nothing too amazing here, but some of it looks interesting. Combine Poison is probably the best one, just for nova potential.

Toxic Manufactory: Cuts poison creation time drastically down, if you create in bulk. Pretty handy in games w/o much downtime.

Trapster: Garbage; not much more to say.

Sneak Attack: Super slow progression (+1d6 per 5 levels)... better than nothing.

Treacherous Toxin: What Crusty was talking about. Sack SA dice for save DC. Totally worth it against anyone with a fortification % or some ability to reduce precision damage. Might be more viable with Sap Master.
EDIT: I guess it's debatable if you get the DC bonus should they shrug off the SA damage you're no longer inflicting.

Swift Poisoning: Bleh. Comes MUCH later than the Alchemist class feature. Will inevitably end up being redundant unless you never hit Alchemist 6.

Instantaneous Toxicology: Holy crap is this laughably inferior to Instant Alchemy of the Alchemist! To be fair, you get it as early as ECL 13 instead of 18, but still... Also to be fair, Crusty advised bailing out 2 levels before now.

Levels 9 and 10: Dude, where's my capstone? Wow... Alchemist levels already stack, so you already have poison immunity... You by default would pick up the extra +1d6 SA just by spending those two levels in Viv. Alchemist. All that's left from these last 2 levels is a worthless additional +1 to trapster and your 5th toxic trick. There is no sane reason to ever go to the end of this PrC. None.

In conclusion: Entry sucks; definite nerf due to progression losses. Possibly worth it through 5th level for Treacherous Toxin, that's basically *the* reason to take this class. Level 6 isn't awful but s hard to justify taking. Level 7+ is just appallingly bad.

[Corinath]

I now understand why I was lost.

I'm still relatively new to the forms, and recently figured out that PF meant Pathfinder. LoL.

That being said, is there an equivalency for regular 3.5 via craft alchemy or the like? Or is this strictly a PF thing?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) is a new class designed by Paizo strictly for Pathfinder, however with some tweaking (mostly the skill list and the spell infusion list) it should be able to be played in a 3.5 game.

[Crustypeanut]

I do agree with those points - its not an amazing PrC.. but I think it is the one of the best ways to make Poisons doable.

[grarrrg]

Multi-classing
Arcane Bomber Wizard: You gain a "similar" Bomb ability, and Alchemist levels stack to determine Bomb damage, but you specifically can NOT apply Discoveries to the Arcane-Bombs. (As an added bonus it "stacks with" the Alchemist Bomb ability but "you do not gain" the Alchemist Bomb ability. So by RAW it stacks with nothing?).


There should potentially be 3 sections for PrC's, a 'Bomber/Extract' one, a 'Mutagen Beatdown' one, and an 'if your DM lets Alchemists count as actual casters' list.

Master Chymist Awesome if going for Mutagen Beatdown. Less so otherwise. Still stacks for Bomb damage, but Discoveries are limited to those on the Chymist list (which does not include Bomb enhancers).
Bonus points for being the _only_ PrC to advance Extracts.

Daggermark Poisoner (color is up for debate, see previous discussion)

Student of War (potentially Green) 2 levels lets you use INT for AC instead of DEX, can help reduce MAD, but doesn't advance any Alchemist features.

[avr]

On PrCs, both Assassin and Sleepless Detective get a fair bit of use out of high intelligence and utility spells/formulas such as the alchemist provides, even if they don't advance them. Sherlock Holmes is perfect as an alchemist (mindchemist) / sleepless detective. Not exactly high-op choices though. I might rate the Assassin as green for alchemists (especially if the alchemist has the vivisectionist archetype) and the Sleepless Detective as orange.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Assassin is horrible in PF and not green for anyone. Sleepless Detective...it's alright, sort of... The main purpose of either is as a 1 level dip for +1d6 SA, to enter Arcane Trickster w/ only 2 lost caster levels (wiz 4 / SA class 1 / SA PrC 1) instead of 3 (wiz 3 / SA class 3). Speaking of which, Mindchemist Viv. Alchemist is probably the best class to combine with wizard to go into Arcane Trickster. May be worth mentioning.

I don't particularly like Master Chymist. You still lose some extract progression and you gain a bunch of annoying random/unwanted mutagen triggering. Further, the class features it grants are overall worse than high level discoveries, and you're also losing out on the higher level beastmorph (or other archetypes...but mainly beastmorph) class features. Worst of all, by strict RAW, it would not advance a Viv Alchemist's sneak attack despite advancing the bomb damage that SA is replacing. And MC is definitely a poor choice for a bomber. So...

EDIT:
For multiclassing, you can certainly do worse than a Ranger dip. The higher BAB initially can really help, you get full martial weapon proficiencies, and the Natural Weapon style means you qualify for (even if it's not taken as a ranger bonus feat!) Aspect of the Beast, a simple way to gain more claw attacks for your vestigial arms. And early entry on Improved Natural Attack. Then, the archetypes... Freebooter is very nice for a dipper. As is Trapper, to officially steal the rogue's job.

[grarrrg]

I don't particularly like Master Chymist. You still lose some extract progression and you gain a bunch of annoying random/unwanted mutagen triggering. Further, the class features it grants are overall worse than high level discoveries, and you're also losing out on the higher level beastmorph (or other archetypes...but mainly beastmorph) class features. Worst of all, by strict RAW, it would not advance a Viv Alchemist's sneak attack despite advancing the bomb damage that SA is replacing. And MC is definitely a poor choice for a bomber. So...

Master Chymist is very much for the beatstick Alchemists (and/or those wanting to play Jekyll/Hyde or Hulk).
And it does the beatstick thing quite well. Full Bab, d10hd, same Saves, and Brutality for outright extra damage.
For the "part time" beatstick, even a dip for a level or 2 can be worth it, without majorly interrupting Discoveries/Extracts.
For the non-beatsticks, it is not worth it.

The Extract loss is annoying, but even with a full 10 levels of Chymist you'll still hit level 6 Extracts at level 19 at the worst.

The unwanted Mutating only triggers if you are Critical Hit, or fail a Fortitude save. And in situations where those are likely to occur, you are probably already Mutated, and so the triggering does nothing.

The biggest draw of Beastmorph is Pounce at level 10. And one of the big draws of Chymist is the first level ability of +2/day Mutate without needing to brew a Mutagen. So a quick dip into Chymist at level 8, back to Alchemist til Pounce, then Chymist all the way to 20 (or Alchemist straight to 10, then Chymist to 20).

While Vivisectionist with Sneak would be the preferred entry, entering with Bombs backed with battlefield control discoveries would still be quite handy.

And most of the Discoveries that requires 12 or more levels would not be missed much anyway.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Random questions to be considered:

1. Does anyone have any clever ideas for the title of the handbook? The best I've been able to come up with is "The Philosopher's Stone: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook." That just feels like it could be a misnomer because I'm not sure how grand the Philosopher's stone really is as a discovery.

2. Do we want to give any thought to demarcating if the archetype or feat recommended isn't on the paizo prd, but is from something like a Pathfinder Chronicles or Pathfinder Adventure Path? I can't imagine there would be many things that there are many standouts that are, but I figured it may bear mentioning.

Examples of material that isn't on the PRD, but is commonly used/recommended
- The Dervish Dance feat is only the in Inner Sea World Guide
- The Piranha Strike (Power Attack for Finesse fighters) feat is in "Sargava, the Lost Colony"
- The Wayang Spellhunter ('Metamagic Master') trait is from the "Dragon Empires Primer," and not published in Ultimate Campaign

As I said, I'm not sure that this will often bear mentioning, but it may bear mentioning that something is from a niche source. For example, the Visionary Researcher and Cryptbreaker archetypes are in Inner Sea Magic, and the Grenadier archetype is the from Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

3. Who wants to try and rate archetypes, and how much do we want to focus the guide on making suggestions for each archetype? I ask because, as with most tier 3 classes the Alchemist really has quite a few directions that it could go in and many fields it could try to specialize in.

[Crustypeanut]

I have two questions for everyone:

First: Does the Bomb-Thrower ability of the Master Chymist allow your Sneak Attack ability from being a Vivisectionist to stack? Or, by taking Master Chymist as a Vivisectionist Alchemist, does your sneak attack no longer progress?

Two: Do you still add your Intelligence modifier to damage when throwing alchemical splash weapons when you're a Vivisectionist? Or does it go away with bombs?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have two questions for everyone:

First: Does the Bomb-Thrower ability of the Master Chymist allow your Sneak Attack ability from being a Vivisectionist to stack? Or, by taking Master Chymist as a Vivisectionist Alchemist, does your sneak attack no longer progress?

Two: Do you still add your Intelligence modifier to damage when throwing alchemical splash weapons when you're a Vivisectionist? Or does it go away with bombs?

1. Strict RAW: You get nothing. Any reasonable DM would let the SA-for-bombs swap carry over into the PrC.

2. Int to damage with splash weapons is part of Throw Anything, not part of the Bombs class feature. As long as you keep that, you keep int to damage. This also applies to the bombs themselves (I think; paizo certainly could have made it clearer), which is why Internal Alchemist is a super bad idea for a bomber.

[Crustypeanut]

1. Strict RAW: You get nothing. Any reasonable DM would let the SA-for-bombs swap carry over into the PrC.

2. Int to damage with splash weapons is part of Throw Anything, not part of the Bombs class feature. As long as you keep that, you keep int to damage. This also applies to the bombs themselves (I think; paizo certainly could have made it clearer), which is why Internal Alchemist is a super bad idea for a bomber.

#1: Yeah I figured that, strict-raw wise. I'm seriously hoping my DM will allow it, though.

#2: Woo! My 16 Intelligence will come in handy beyond extracts and skills then! I do love me some alchemical weapons indeed.. now this will make me use them even more. When I'm not stabbing people with my obsidian daggers, of course.

[Khosan]

Does anyone have any clever ideas for the title of the handbook? The best I've been able to come up with is "The Philosopher's Stone: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook." That just feels like it could be a misnomer because I'm not sure how grand the Philosopher's stone really is as a discovery.

Drinking For Fun and Profit: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook

EDIT: Or "Getting Drunk and Throwing Things." That works too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Donating your body to science"

Or, "Weird Science"

[grarrrg]

Drinking For Fun and Profit: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook

EDIT: Or "Getting Drunk and Throwing Things." That works too.

I'm fine with either of those.


For the Multiclassing/PrC section, a couple more.
Ratings are for Beatstick builds. For Bomber/Extract focused builds the following would be Red.

Kensai Archetype Magus for 2-to-4 levels. Kensai gains the "Canny Defense" ability that a Duelist does, this adds INT to AC as a Dodge bonus (limited by class level). Gives you proficiency with the Martial or Exotic weapon of your choice, grants Weapon Focus with that Weapon (so you effectively don't lose any Bab). And the Spell Combat and Spellstrike abilities (combined with a decent Cantrip) can be used to get an extra attack every round.

Duelist Grants the Canny Defense ability (Int added to AC). Has full Bab, and grants +1 Precision damage/level. +2 Initiative at 2nd. Rated low due to Entry Prereqs, and the lack of decent synergy outside of "INT to AC".

[Novawurmson]

Random questions to be considered:

1. Does anyone have any clever ideas for the title of the handbook? The best I've been able to come up with is "The Philosopher's Stone: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook." That just feels like it could be a misnomer because I'm not sure how grand the Philosopher's stone really is as a discovery.

Several good names have been suggested. "Getting Drunk and Throwing Things" and "Donating your body to science" both have a ring to them. Even if they don't become the name of the guide, they can be included as titles of subheadings. Allow me to put forth the title/subheading: "How to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb(s)."


2. Do we want to give any thought to demarcating if the archetype or feat recommended isn't on the paizo prd, but is from something like a Pathfinder Chronicles or Pathfinder Adventure Path?

Definitely include them with a note. Most games that I've heard of are either "core only," "main books only," or "most things on the pfsrd, with DM permission." Since the Alchemist is only going to be considered for the last two, there's definite value in rating anything that is easily accessible.


Who wants to try and rate archetypes, and how much do we want to focus the guide on making suggestions for each archetype? I ask because, as with most tier 3 classes the Alchemist really has quite a few directions that it could go in and many fields it could try to specialize in.

I feel that, like discoveries, archetypes should be rated by how good they are for a person with that goal - obviously a physically-focused archetype isn't good for a bomber, but how good is it for a beatstick (etc., etc.)?

Also, finishing moving. Lack of internet is limiting posting potential XD

[Crustypeanut]

I vote for "Donating your Body to Science for Fun and Profit."

[Psyren]

Random questions to be considered:

1. Does anyone have any clever ideas for the title of the handbook? The best I've been able to come up with is "The Philosopher's Stone: The Pathfinder Alchemist Handbook." That just feels like it could be a misnomer because I'm not sure how grand the Philosopher's stone really is as a discovery.

It's pretty grand in the sense that it is perhaps the only player-creatable artifact in PF. The GDs tend to be pretty outlandish considering they are capstone abilities and not really intended for use in play, at least not for very long.

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure how grand the Philosopher's stone really is as a discovery.


It's about the only discovery worth getting at 20th level, the other being +2 Int.

[Novawurmson]

As mentioned previously, I'd like to include any PF material that is easily accessible to players. I figured I'd try my hand at rating the psionic races. Psionics Expanded has a number of feats for thrown weapon characters that could be worth looking at.


3rd Party Material
Note: Always talk with your DM before using third party material.
Blue - Blues are, unsurprisingly, blue for bomb-focused alchemists. Bonuses to Dex and Int, Small size, and bonuses to stealth and perception are all excellent. No alchemist favored class bonus in Psionics Expanded, though.
Dromite - Solid bonuses all around for a bomber, but no Int bonus probably means this is a pass.
Duergar - Expansion 1/day is OK for melee alchemists, but Half Giant is definitely the superior choice if you're going for a psionic race.
Elan - Bonus to a stat of your choice. Resistance is excellent; consider throwing a few favored class points to pick up more PP to power it. The other favored class bonus is meh (energy resistance).
Half-Giant - For beatstick alchemists, it's hard to argue with Powerful Build plus a bonus to your Str.
Maenad - Better for beastick alchemists, as the bonus to Str from Outburst is untyped.
Ophiduan - Bonuses to secondary stats, penalty to a dump stat. I feel like this is a nice choice for the Vivisectionist, as the bite gives another attack for a full-attack sneak attack. Certainly not a bad choice for beatstick, but not the best.
Xeph - Nothing really here for the alchemist.

[Novawurmson]

Archetypes, as mentioned previously, are going to be strange to rate, as some of them are extremely different in their focus and purpose. Here's a first draft.


Beastmorph - For beasticks. The only serious thing you're missing out on is persistent mutagen, but you're getting pounce at level 10, and you're only really losing poison immunity and swift poisoning.
Chirurgeon - You're not losing much, but you're not gaining much.
Clone Master - The big problem is the amount of time it takes for your archetype features to work.
Crypt Breaker - If you absolutely need a trapmonkey for your group, you might consider this (or if it's an extremely heavily undead-focused campaign).
Grenadier - This is a solid archetype for bombers. You're getting things that you almost definitely want (precise bombs), losing things you don't care about (Brew Potion), and getting some fun new features (Staggering Blast is brutal).
Internal Alchemist - Losing Int to bomb damage is bad. There's nothing to cool to live without here. Uncanny dodge is nice.
Mindchemist - Not losing much (for a bomber or support alchemist) for an incredible bonus to Knowledge checks and Cognatogen.
Visionary Researcher - Not losing much, not gaining much.
Preservationist - Summoning is a powerful ability to have in your back pocket.
Psychonaut - Wouldn't be quite so bad without all the penalties to bomb damage. Some interesting extracts, still.
Ragechemist - Possibly interesting for a boss fight (another way of disabling the BBEG), but pretty terrible for a PC. You do not want to give yourself another weakness, particularly one as simple as "Hit it and it goes comatose."
Reanimator - Whyyyy so many penalties to bomb damage. It gives you absolutely nothing for the first 6 levels, too, possibly showing some of the worst archetype writing in PF (most of which give you at least something small from the beginning so you feel different from a standard member of your class. I love undead. I love Herbert West: Reanimator, by H. P. Lovecraft. I love the Dr. Reanimator (http://youtu.be/7BnOUOkcr9c) movies (YouTube link). Despite the name, this is a terrible archetype.
Vivisectionist - Suddenly, you're a rogue with quasi-6th level spellcasting. An excellent archetype, but it needs to be optimized around.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I kind of want to rate the preservationist higher because you're basically only giving up your ability to work with poisons (oh teh noes) in order to gain the ability to summon creatures. Losing on discovery kind of hurts, as the fact that it's summon nature's ally and not summon monster.

That said, it's hard for me to rate it as a green because I don't think you really lose anything for a very nice addition to your formulae list.

[Tokuhara]

Good Dips for Alchemist:

Knifemaster Rogue for a Vivisectionist Alchemist: take 2 levels to open up Rogue Talents and d8 SA dice.

Barbarian for Melee Alchemist: Rage + Rage Powers on top of Mutagen

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are a bunch of archetypes that reduce bomb damage or take other stuff away right from the start and don't give anything until level 6 or more in return. I hate all of them with a passion, that's just really crappy to do to people starting at level 1, whose campaigns may die before they even reach mid levels for all they know. I kind of want all such archetypes to get downgraded one spot just for doing that.

Summoning is good, but I really don't know if Preservationist is that good for it. If you do take the archetype, Planar Preservationist is basically a required feat. I still think Green is pretty accurate, though. The losses themselves may not matter, but it's precluding other good archetypes from being taken, so it's still a big opportunity cost.

Overall, archetype rankings seem pretty accurate to me. I don't suppose there's a "redder than red" color for Rage Chemist?


Good Dips for Alchemist:

Knifemaster Rogue for a Vivisectionist Alchemist: take 2 levels to open up Rogue Talents and d8 SA dice.

Barbarian for Melee Alchemist: Rage + Rage Powers on top of Mutagen

I'd take 1 level for the d8's...rogue talents largely suck and 3/4 of the good ones are bonus feats. Only exception is if you have a sneak attacking ally and both of you are going Sap Master. Then both of you getting 2 levels in rogue for Distracting Attack talent is totally worth it.
I'm still not too sold on knife master, either. Upgrading two weapons is expensive, while as Alchemist affords you several natural attacks right out of the gate and you have Greater Magic Fang on your list (though ideally you're chugging CL 20 GMF potions with Alchemical Allocation anyway).

As for Barbarian... have you actually looked at the rage powers? Almost all the initial ones suck and the ones that don't are based on barb level for their effects, no good for a dipper. It's at levels 6 - 12 that all the best rage powers come online (aside from the level based ones, like Superstitious and Reckless Abandon). Maybe 1 level of Wild Rager just to have a whole lot of rage per day (if you nuke your Cha score, the will save is pretty easy to make; just choose to fail it when you want to stay confused), along w/ martial proficiencies and such.

[Tokuhara]

I'd take 1 level for the d8's...rogue talents largely suck and 3/4 of the good ones are bonus feats. Only exception is if you have a sneak attacking ally and both of you are going Sap Master. Then both of you getting 2 levels in rogue for Distracting Attack talent is totally worth it.
I'm still not too sold on knife master, either. Upgrading two weapons is expensive, while as Alchemist affords you several natural attacks right out of the gate and you have Greater Magic Fang on your list (though ideally you're chugging CL 20 GMF potions with Alchemical Allocation anyway).

As for Barbarian... have you actually looked at the rage powers? Almost all the initial ones suck and the ones that don't are based on barb level for their effects, no good for a dipper. It's at levels 6 - 12 that all the best rage powers come online (aside from the level based ones, like Superstitious and Reckless Abandon). Maybe 1 level of Wild Rager just to have a whole lot of rage per day (if you nuke your Cha score, the will save is pretty easy to make; just choose to fail it when you want to stay confused), along w/ martial proficiencies and such.

To answer your points in-turn:

Rogue - What you do is cherry pick the one Rogue Talent that fits your concept best. Plus, Sticky Poison + Knives. Hard to not see the value. And if you're so inclined, Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Insert Trick here.

Barbarian - Yes I have, and see my argument for Rogue here. Here though, I'd open with Barbarian 2 (grabbing the one rage power I want, and likely going with Barbarian of the Society for +3 rounds of Rage), then go into Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and charge-pounce-explode my enemies.

[NamelessNPC]

Summoning is good, but I really don't know if Preservationist is that good for it. If you do take the archetype, Planar Preservationist is basically a required feat. I still think Green is pretty accurate, though. The losses themselves may not matter, but it's precluding other good archetypes from being taken, so it's still a big opportunity cost.

I'm really comfortable with the fact that Preservationist is the only green archetype. It represents the frontier between the really cool ones and the other ones that no one uses. Summoning as a standard action is something cool, but it's not very synergetic with any other class feature if you are a bomber: You can't buff your summons with your extracts and you may damage them with the bombs, but they do help you set up sneak attacks if you take Vivisectionist. Giving up persistent mutagen is hard, but is the only real downside.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rogue - What you do is cherry pick the one Rogue Talent that fits your concept best. Plus, Sticky Poison + Knives. Hard to not see the value. And if you're so inclined, Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Insert Trick here.

Which talents would those be? Please, name some of these stellar talents that are worth delaying all your alchemist stuff yet another level.

Sticky poison + knives: what are the knives bringing to the table here, exactly? If I was doing a sticky poison build and using a weapon, I'd probably want bludgeoning ones to use Sap Adept/Master with.

Ninja Trick actually isn't so good as a rogue talent. Most require ki points to use. And the rogue talent for ki points is terribad and based on wisdom, not a high stat for you. Without ki, the only choices are Wall Climber (not bad, but beastmorph and later on, flight, make it less useful), the sabotage one, and...uh... maybe a few more. *shrug*


Barbarian - Yes I have, and see my argument for Rogue here. Here though, I'd open with Barbarian 2 (grabbing the one rage power I want, and likely going with Barbarian of the Society for +3 rounds of Rage), then go into Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist and charge-pounce-explode my enemies.

Again...what is this one rage power you want? Give examples. The opening rage power selection is extremely disappointing, I find. At least if dipping (which makes Reckless Abandon and Superstitious, the best low level rage powers, worthless...hell, I'd actually call Superstitious on a 2 level Barb dip to be an outright newb trap).

If dipping Barb 2, I would start as Barb 1 for the higher maxed HD and BAB +1 to start; then go Alchemist 2 so I can still start taking Extra Discovery at 3rd level, then go back to Barb 2. Just my advice...

[Tokuhara]

Well, Knife master procs d8 with knives, hence the idea of using a knife.

And I haven't really read into Rogue talents/Rage Powers (I play Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Witch/Gunslinger/Human Order of the Dragon Standard Bearer) so I outright couldn't tell you

And another option for a melee Alchemist is 3 levels of Cleric (Domains, Spells, Spell List), which having a 12 Wisdom could be useful

And to note: The one time I played Alchemist, I ran a Gnome Mindchemist, so melee isn't my forte.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This entire thread got swordsage'd! Another guy's Alchemist guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293307

EDIT: I don't agree with a lot of his rankings thus far, though.

[The Random NPC]

This entire thread got swordsage'd! Another guy's Alchemist guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293307

EDIT: I don't agree with a lot of his rankings thus far, though.

The post before yours was about 36 hours before the first post in that other thread, so it isn't much of a swordsage.

[Novawurmson]

Refer to earlier explanation about more guides = better. If we can go from 1 guide to 3, that's great!

Work on this guide seems to have slowed down a little, though. What's next on the agenda? I'd say we're most of the way through a 1st draft.

Some things that need input:

-Suggested feats
-Sample builds
-Gear

Edit: N.Jolly (the other of the other guide), sent me a PM to make sure there were no hard feelings. I assured him there weren't and went ahead and added his guide to the Optimization Guides Compendium. He suggested cross linking each other's guides, which I think is a great idea for when ours is finished.

[Novawurmson]

Random addition: We should make sure to link the archetype combinations thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229326) in the handbook. Probably the juiciest for raw DPS is Vivisectionist/Beastmorph, but there aren't too many abusable combinations I saw.