Mind Flayers have genders?

[gurgleflep]

So, there's a redeemed mind flayer monk in BoED that's listed as a female.

Originally posted by Book of Exalted Deeds
Sample Redeemed Villain
Thaqualm is an extraordinary redeemed villain: a mind flayer who has joined the cause of good. Living deep underground on the outskirts of a mind flayer city, Thaqualm was a victim of a small-scale slave rebellion: Her duergar thralls broke free of her mental control and forced her into three years of wretched servitude, her mental powers suppressed and her body at the verge of starvation. Finally, she was liberated—by an adventuring party from the surface who killed her duergar masters but spared the pathetic illithid, showing her kindness unlike anything she had ever experienced before. Eventually, she joined the adventurers and traveled with them for two years. She joined a monastic order, and has now retired to a life of contemplation. She has sworn a vow of nonviolence and works hard to redeem any evil humanoids she may encounter, hoping to set them on the same course that has proven so rewarding for her.

In Savage Species, they've got an example Illithid Savant that's listed as a male.

Originally posted by Savage Species
Sample Illithid Savant
Sugglir Wissenka is a male mind flayer who pursued the path of the shadowdancer almost from birth. He and his shadow companion gathered many slaves for the glory of Sugglir’s city. An assault by drow made Sugglir realize that his true loyalties lay among the illithids, so he abandoned his career as a shadowdancer and began developing his skills as an illithid savant. Sugglir is a devoted defender of his people. He may be encountered on missions to destroy threats to the illithids of his city.

These are the only two gender specific mind flayers I'm aware of that are gender specific. I'd always thought they didn't have genders - is this something of an adopted sexuality? Do they take the gender of the human that they replaced the mind of or something?

[Jeff the Green]

They could easily have gender without sex. Gender's in the brain, sex is between the legs.

[gurgleflep]

They could easily have gender without sex. Gender's in the brain, sex is between the legs.

So what you're getting at is that their gender's all in the head? I think. I stink with words, but as long as I understand what I mean/think, I'm alright with it :smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's probably a lot like warforged.

[Karnith]

So what you're getting at is that their gender's all in the head? I think. I stink with words, but as long as I understand what I mean/think, I'm alright with it :smallbiggrin:
The difference between gender and sex in the real world is a rather contentious issue, and full exploration of the differences between the two is probably well beyond the scope of this thread, but a very simplistic explanation is that (biological) sex is based on anatomy, while gender is a set of characteristics relating masculinity and femininity. Or, to put it another way, sex is based on your physical body, while gender is based on your actions and thoughts.

If you wish to read more on the topic, I would suggest starting on Wikipedia's Gender page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender).

[Waker]

So what you're getting at is that their gender's all in the head? I think. I stink with words, but as long as I understand what I mean/think, I'm alright with it :smallbiggrin:

What Jeff is trying to say is that sex is biological. Gender is an amalgam of psychological and sociological traits. You can sexually be a female, while your gender could be male, in which case you would be called a Tomboy, at least in America.

[gurgleflep]

It's probably a lot like warforged.

I've read up on them, the ones with a female personality will often use skin grafts to appear as the gender they prefer while the male ones just stick with what they look like - they already have an appropriate build.


The difference between gender and sex in the real world is a rather contentious issue, and full exploration of the differences between the two is probably well beyond the scope of this thread, but a very simplistic explanation is that (biological) sex is based on anatomy, while gender is a set of characteristics relating masculinity and femininity. Or, to put it another way, sex is based on your physical body, while gender is based on your actions and thoughts.

That's quite a bit easier for me to wrap my head around, thank you :smallsmile:


What Jeff is trying to say is that sex is biological. Gender is an amalgam of psychological and sociological traits. You can sexually be a female, while your gender could be male, in which case you would be called a Tomboy, at least in America.

This is also easy for me to wrap my head around, so thank you too :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

I'm not sure why a squidface would have a gender even bordering on anything we're familiar with.
In Lords of Madness, it goes into Illithid psychology, and they're motivated almost entirely by negative emotions.

It actually might be kind of interesting to construct "genders" for mindflayers.

[Snowbluff]

Uh, of course they have genders. They only only parasite infesting a host body, which is humanoid and has a gender. Jesus guys, Aberbiology 101. :smalltongue:

[Humble Master]

If you look at Fiend Folio it explain on page 90 how Illithids reproduce. Basically they stick a Illithid tadpole into someone's brain (preferably a human), the tadpole eats the person's brain and then mutates the body creating an Illithid (or half Illithid if the host is not human). It never explains were the tadpoles com from however so it is possible that a male Illithid has to fertilize an egg or something.

[Gorgondantess]

Let's not get into real life social issues here, folks. Snowbluff has the right of it: the body that was created into an illithid remains the same gender as before. However since there are no physiological trends to differentiate between the two, I'd imagine that gender as a social construct does not exist in illithid society.

[Waker]

Generally speaking, if you are biologically female, but gendered male, you would generally be termed a trans man, as gender identification goes far beyond what the phrase "tomboy" generally signifies. A tomboy is (usually) a girl who displays some traits more commonly expected of men - that is to say, who sometimes acts masculinely, when she is expected to act femininely. A trans man, by contrast, is someone who identifies completely as male, who is biologically female.

I meant to type masculine rather than male, was just in a bit of a rush when typing that out.

[gurgleflep]

I'm not sure why a squidface would have a gender even bordering on anything we're familiar with.
In Lords of Madness, it goes into Illithid psychology, and they're motivated almost entirely by negative emotions.

It actually might be kind of interesting to construct "genders" for mindflayers.

Maybe at a younger age they decide on a gender and their body style changes? The difference could be as different as a color change or maybe a head shape (squid vs. octopus).
Maybe a completely different look (http://sayuri-nitta.deviantart.com/art/Riley-TiH-Commission-197011854?q=favby%3Abobbobbbbob%2F40041861&qo=140) for the women? The picture doesn't have a mouth or nose, the tentacles are in a different location, and I don't know quite how it would eat, but it looks neat!


Uh, of course they have genders. They only only parasite infesting a host body, which is humanoid and has a gender. Jesus guys, Aberbiology 101. :smalltongue:

So, they just change their heads/brains/faces and the rest of their anatomy doesn't change?


If you look at Fiend Folio it explain on page 90 how Illithids reproduce. Basically they stick a Illithid tadpole into someone's brain (preferably a human), the tadpole eats the person's brain and then mutates the body creating an Illithid (or half Illithid if the host is not human). It never explains were the tadpoles com from however so it is possible that a male Illithid has to fertilize an egg or something.

Don't they just create a massive spawn of tadpoles into a water and hope some live? They develop over time until they're able to do their whole ceremorphosis thing.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If you look at Fiend Folio it explain on page 90 how Illithids reproduce. Basically they stick a Illithid tadpole into someone's brain (preferably a human), the tadpole eats the person's brain and then mutates the body creating an Illithid (or half Illithid if the host is not human). It never explains were the tadpoles com from however so it is possible that a male Illithid has to fertilize an egg or something.

One version has each illithid community build around its elder brain, an extremely powerful psionic and evil monster that produces illithid tadpoles in a pool full of humanoid cerebrospinal fluid. Illithids reproduce by requesting a tadpole from the elder brain, then stuffing it into a human's mouth. The tadpole promptly eats the brain, grows bigger, and uses psychometabolism to alter the humanoid's body into an illithid body. The psychometabolic process works better on some humanoids than others, but the end result is unrecognizeable as the original. Githyanki and githzerai are optimal, but humans work well too.

Needless to say, illithids are asexual and have no gender roles in their society. They don't need male or female genders because they don't produce offspring the same way the majority of humanoids do. A particular illithid could declare itself to be a particular gender, but all other illithids would find this to be a perverse and deviant practice. Most illithids who deal with humanoids would probably allow themselves to be called by a gender pronoun, and most illithids wouldn't care which one is used.

[ArqArturo]

In my opinion, mind flayers have three genders:

The 'I will eat your brain' gender, the 'I will weaken you and eat your brain' gender, and the 'I will weaken you, kill you, but can't eat your brain because I'm sort of a lich' gender.

Other than that, it's all in the brain... And the host that the tadpole was inserted into.

[Yael]

From birth to death, the physiology of the illithid life cycle is unique, and unspeakably horrible.
In basic configuration, a mind flayer is amphibious. The first portion of its life is spent as a tadpole hatched from an egg. An adult illithid spawns hermaphroditically two or three times during its lifetime, depositing about a thousand eggs in a briny pool constructed for just this purpose. The eggs hatch after about a month, releasing the writhing tadpoles into the
pool.
The tadpoles spend ten years in the pool, where they are fed a fatty mash of brain material and other organs prepared by nursery attendants. After a decade, they have grown from a fraction of an inch to around 3 inches in length. At this point, in terms of sentience and intellect, they are still little more than intelligent frogs.
The nurseries are home to more than just tadpoles. At the bottom of the pool resides an elder brain, which survives by preying on the defenseless tadpoles. The tiny percentage of tadpoles that survive a decade in the pool—no more than a few in a thousand—are rightly considered by the illithids to be the fittest, canniest specimens. By surviving, they earn the privilege of undergoing ceremorphosis.
This is the real mystery of the illithid life cycle, for illithids do not grow their own bodies. Instead, a mature tadpole is inserted into the ear, nostril, or eye of a helpless humanoid captive. Over a period of several days, the tadpole burrows
into the host brain, consuming gray matter and gaining body mass in a nearly equal ratio. When the process is complete, the victim’s brain is completely replaced by the tadpole’s bloated tissue. The tadpole is neurologically melded onto what remains of the lower brain stem and assumes complete control of the body’s nervous system. The victim dies irrevocably, but the body lives on with a parasite serving as its brain. Victims have been rescued from this horrid fate, but only if help arrives quickly. A victim is permanently drained of 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Dexterity every hour after tadpole insertion. When any one ability is reduced to 0, the victim’s psychic essence is destroyed and replaced by the tadpole’s awakening mind. Before that point is reached, restoration can reinstate lost ability points but won’t kill the tadpole, so damage keeps accruing. The only sure way to save the victim is to kill the tadpole. The tadpole itself is very easy to kill (automatic kill with a coup de grace), but its location inside the victim’s head is a serious complicating factor. Spells such as cure disease and remove curse have no effect; only a heal spell can save a victim undergoing ceremorphosis.
In most cases, the only way to guarantee the tadpole is slain is to crush or incinerate the victim’s head. At that point, resurrection, true resurrection, or raise dead come into play. Raise dead alone is of no avail if the victim’s head was destroyed in the process of killing the tadpole. The process of ceremorphosis takes a week to complete but it cannot be reversed after
any of the victim’s ability scores are reduced to 0.
From that point, no means can bring the victim back short of a miracle.
Only certain races are used by the mind fl ayers as recipients of ceremorphosis. In general, donors must be humanoid, mammalian, between 5 feet 4 inches and 6 feet 2 inches tall, and weigh from 130 to 270 pounds. Humans, elves, drow, githzerai, githyanki, grimlocks, gnolls, goblinoids (of Medium size), and orcs are sought-after donors. Races smaller or larger than
these, whether in height, weight, or size category, are neverused, and neither are reptilian or amphibian races. Halflings, dwarves, derro, duergar, gnomes, centaurs and their relatives, giants, and kuo-toas might be used as thralls or as food, but they are never used as ceremorphosis subjects.

There it is, from the Lords of Madness, the process of birth for an Illithid~~
So, as said before, it would depend on the cocoon used to do the ceremorphosis.

[Gerrtt]

In the PS2 game Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2 you face an illithid with a female sounding voice. Now, granted, it's voice has kindof a chorus effect to it, but the primary voice sounds female to me.

[Big Fau]

It never explains were the tadpoles com from however so it is possible that a male Illithid has to fertilize an egg or something.

This was actually expanded upon in Lords of Madness.

[Humble Master]

Man, I need to get me Lords of Madness.

[gurgleflep]

Man, I need to get me Lords of Madness.

Same, it's got my favorite type of monster (aberration) and creatures (mind flayers) in it!

[shadow_archmagi]

Heh, I'd forgotten about the gestation period. I remember designing an encounter where a sorcerer-archaeologist accidentally gets a tadpole in his brain, but his Ring of Regeneration keeps raising his mental scores even as the tadpole eats, and so he's driven mad by the pain of having a gradually swelling tadpole in his partially functioning brain. The party can only kill him by severing his ring-finger, at which point he "dies." Later, he shows up again having been fully converted!

[Venusaur]

MMV says they're genderless.

Like other mind flayers, Disciples of Thoon are genderless.

Honestly, I'd just blame this on WoTC's lazy editing.

[karkus]

They're hermaphrodites that reproduce asexually. Y'all are right to say that it's all in the brain. :smallwink:

[angry_bear]

There it is, from the Lords of Madness, the process of birth for an Illithid~~
So, as said before, it would depend on the cocoon used to do the ceremorphosis.

So that's where babies come from! Got it.

As far as referring to illithid by gender goes, it's kind of the same way with V in OOTS. It's not that they know V is male or female, so much as it is they need to refer to them somehow; and doing so by gender is easier than typing shkler or shkle...

[karkus]

Adding to what angry_bear said, we don't have many 3rd person singular pronouns (besides the dozen or so from Wikipedia :smallwink:) that can apply to V very aptly, so we just use whichever we feel best with.

[Ashtagon]

The host body would still have whatever gender it originally had, although the reproductive organs would no longer serve any biological function (or be functional). The transformational process would also reduce most of the gender-based differences from the original species.

[shadow_archmagi]

The host body would still have whatever gender it originally had, although the reproductive organs would no longer serve any biological function (or be functional). The transformational process would also reduce most of the gender-based differences from the original species.

No, the host body would have whatever sex it had. Its gender would be destroyed during the brain-eating process.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I think if a Mind flayer told me that she was female, I probably wouldn't rush to correct her. I'd mostly be rushing in the opposite direction to keep my noggin intact.

[gurgleflep]

I think if a Mind flayer told me that she was female, I probably wouldn't rush to correct her. I'd mostly be rushing in the opposite direction to keep my noggin intact.

I'd do the same, but would also run in a manner that a mindblast wouldn't easily hit me, zig-zag, tuck and weave, barrel rolls, jumping, crawling, throwing rocks and such at them while running... anything to make it more challenging! :smalleek:

------------

Thank you all for the knowledge I've required through this thread :smallsmile: it has been most helpful.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Though the transformation process involves the consumption of a humanoid brain that presumably has a gender and assimilated some or all of its host's memories, a illithid will most certainly not think in a way we would perceive as masculine or feminine unless you have a very negative view of one gender.

Chalk gender pronouns up to a deficit in our language and writers and authors that default to differant genders.

[inuyasha]

mind flayers n gender hmm? I have an idea for a new homebrew project!! thanks gurgle!

[gurgleflep]

mind flayers n gender hmm? I have an idea for a new homebrew project!! thanks gurgle!

Ha! Helped you out with your project and didn't even know it :smalltongue: We're all helpful, yay!

[BWR]

I can imagine illithids have non-sexually based genders. Gender would be more akin to jobs than strict social norms and expectations. The Creeds probably have a role in this. Nourishers are more likely to be ...nurturing. Their job is to tend to their livestock and some might have some odd feeling of care and affection for its flock.
Like a farmer cares about each and every sheep in his herd, right up to the point they are sent off to the butcher.

Or even more interesting, maybe illithid gender is a product of the host. Perhaps there are minor but relevant differences between illithids created from humans and illithids created from elves.

[JaronK]

The base body (humanoid whose brain got eaten) has a sex, but it's unclear what happens to that after the metamorphosis. The Illithid most likely has no gender. So the hes and shes in the description are just how humans might perceive them.

JaronK

[inuyasha]

hmm, ive seen that some mind flayers have breasts, gender though, hmm. also, do mind flayers have...junk?

[gurgleflep]

hmm, ive seen that some mind flayers have breasts, gender though, hmm. also, do mind flayers have...junk?

The general consensus (and the multiple books statements) seems to be that the tadpole only ate the brain and replaced the head, the rest of the body would remain the same, just thinner and taller (depending on the human used in the ceremorphosis process). While very believable, their hands only have three fingers and a thumb, so take that as you will.

[angry_bear]

hmm, ive seen that some mind flayers have breasts, gender though, hmm. also, do mind flayers have...junk?

They've got pretty big tentacles, but besides that I don't think so...

[Drachasor]

Hmm, next time I encounter a Mind Flayer I'll have to ask it to explain the gender thing. If that doesn't work then I'll have to "ask" it to explain.

[Jack_Simth]

we don't have many 3rd person singular pronouns (besides the dozen or so from Wikipedia :smallwink:) that can apply to V very aptlyThere's no real unified form for a non-gender-specific singular pronoun that also implies 'person' - many writers have invented terms for the purpose, but none have caught on well enough to be widely recognized (partly because it's a rather niche use, I imagine).

[Spuddles]

Uh, of course they have genders. They only only parasite infesting a host body, which is humanoid and has a gender. Jesus guys, Aberbiology 101. :smalltongue:

That would be sex. I think if you asked an illithid what its gender it was, it'd tell you that sex organs its host body once had, but that would be meaningless trivia for it.


Let's not get into real life social issues here, folks. Snowbluff has the right of it: the body that was created into an illithid remains the same gender as before. However since there are no physiological trends to differentiate between the two, I'd imagine that gender as a social construct does not exist in illithid society.

The body may remain the same sex, or at least have some left over bits, but ceremorphosis destroys the host- there would be no gender to remain.


They're hermaphrodites that reproduce asexually. Y'all are right to say that it's all in the brain. :smallwink:

Hermaphrodite suggests sexual reproduction, actually It basically means "both parts". Molluscs (squids, snails, clams) have some pretty interesting mating strategies. Hermaphrodite snails, in particular, are simultaneous hermaphrodites. Mating involves a sort of sexy combat where both snails try to impale the the other snail with a sperm impregnated harpoon or "love dart". The love dart is stabbed through the mantle of the other snail in order to fertilize them. Sex competition at its finest.

Does LoM actually say anywhere that illithids reproduce asexually? Them being hermaphrodites makes me think they don't reproduce parthenogenically.


I can imagine illithids have non-sexually based genders. Gender would be more akin to jobs than strict social norms and expectations. The Creeds probably have a role in this. Nourishers are more likely to be ...nurturing. Their job is to tend to their livestock and some might have some odd feeling of care and affection for its flock.
Like a farmer cares about each and every sheep in his herd, right up to the point they are sent off to the butcher.

Or even more interesting, maybe illithid gender is a product of the host. Perhaps there are minor but relevant differences between illithids created from humans and illithids created from elves.

I think that may be the right of it.

If illithids are sequential hermaphrodites, then they will very likely have sex based genders. If they're simultaneous hermaphrodites, I suspect that slight variations around how "male" and "female" (preference to fertilize vs. be fertilized) an illithid would lead to genders. That is, if they have sex combat. If they just unceremoniously swap spermatophores like octopus, then they probably don't have a sex based gender.

[BWR]

I'm pretty sure they are simultaneous hermaphrodites. The Illithiad merely says they lay a clutch of eggs twice in their life, with no more detail on fertilization. My guess is that most people don't think of sequentials when they use the word 'hermaphrodite' (unless you are Ursula LeGuin).

Maybe they are self impregnating. In a fantasy world, would genetic variation be that important, or even a driving force of species variation at all?
Maybe illithids are clones of their parent, and there is almost no genetic variation within a single community. Do illithids even have something akin to genes and DNA?
Perhaps species variation comes about via host choice, a melding of the illithid's existing DNA (for lack of a better word) and the repurposed sexual organs of the host.

[Spuddles]

Octopus have "sex" via a handshake, well tentacle shake. The males have a specialized tentacle that they pass some sperm to the female with.

Maybe when one mindflayer gets along nicely with another mindflayer they exchange some sperm via their tentacles. Then they hold onto the sperm for a long time and choose the sperm from the best mindflayers for the next generation.

Or something like that.

[Eldan]

I'd make them hermaphrodites in the snail style. Both pass some DNA packets to the other.

[Chronos]

Even if their bodies originate as humanoid bodies, they don't remain so. An illithid's body is composed almost entirely of brain tissue, meaning that the original tissue must be replaced at some point in the process.

[Snowbluff]

That would be sex. I think if you asked an illithid what its gender it was, it'd tell you that sex organs its host body once had, but that would be meaningless trivia for it.

The only determining difference between mind flayers would be this. It's the bodies they identify with, and no other are probable factors involved. Mindflayers also seem to gain their intelligence from their host body as well.

[Ashtagon]

Even if their bodies originate as humanoid bodies, they don't remain so. An illithid's body is composed almost entirely of brain tissue, meaning that the original tissue must be replaced at some point in the process.

So what you're saying is, they keep their brains in their pants :smallbiggrin:


Thank you thank you, I'll be here all night, and please, tip the bar tender well.

[gurgleflep]

Even if their bodies originate as humanoid bodies, they don't remain so. An illithid's body is composed almost entirely of brain tissue, meaning that the original tissue must be replaced at some point in the process.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound right. Where'd you read that?


So what you're saying is, they keep their brains in their pants :smallbiggrin:


Thank you thank you, I'll be here all night, and please, tip the bar tender well.

This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI)

[BWR]

Even if their bodies originate as humanoid bodies, they don't remain so. An illithid's body is composed almost entirely of brain tissue, meaning that the original tissue must be replaced at some point in the process.

Um, no.
The bodies are per definition humanoid. Upright, two legs, two arms, torso, head. Humanoid.
Second, they have their brains where other humanoids have them. In their heads. The rest of the body is filled with repurposed humanoid innards. The autopsy picture and explanation in the Illithiad is quite specific.

[Spuddles]

The only determining difference between mind flayers would be this. It's the bodies they identify with, and no other are probable factors involved. Mindflayers also seem to gain their intelligence from their host body as well.

Eh? That's like saying "the only determining difference between humans are there bodies." It's either false or so trivially true as to be meaningless.

Unless you are using your words in such a way that I cannot divine your meaning.

[Snowbluff]

Eh? That's like saying "the only determining difference between humans are there bodies." It's either false or so trivially true as to be meaningless.

Unless you are using your words in such a way that I cannot divine your meaning.

Until they eat a host body's brain, it is a non sentient creature. Judging from this and the neolithid, their host is the determinator and originator of their behavior.

[Shalist]

I think this demotivator is worth a post:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3cmp7Qxa41rv231do1_1280.jpg

[elonin]

Was that the "genius bar"?

The main hangup is that the possessed body has or had a gender. The tadpole is a child and doesn't reproduce until it becomes a part of an elder brain.

[BWR]

They reproduce after ceremorphosis, before joining the Elder Brain.
Basically, when they are adults.

[gurgleflep]

I think this demotivator is worth a post:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3cmp7Qxa41rv231do1_1280.jpg

I can't believe I'm saying this, but.... Giggity.


Was that the "genius bar"?

The main hangup is that the possessed body has or had a gender. The tadpole is a child and doesn't reproduce until it becomes a part of an elder brain.

Maybe not "genius bar", if you look, there's either an orc or a half-orc's skull sitting there - there are smart ones, but most people think of dumb brutes when they think of orcs.