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View Full Version : What do you prefer? Weak enemies at 100% or strong enemies at 50%?



Talakeal
2013-07-04, 06:50 PM
One thing I have noticed in every gaming group I have ever DMed for is that the players bitch that the NPCs always start encounters fresh with full HP and spell slots, despite it still being a "fair" challenge.

That got me thinking, would it help or hurt the situation to introduce stronger NPCs who are down resources, but with overall the same level of difficulty.

For example instead of a 100% level 5 fighter, have them encounter a wounded level 8 fighter with the same total HP (or slightly less to balance out his higher offensive powers). Or instead of a level three wizard with full spell slots have the PCs encounter a level five wizard who has used many of his spell slots and only has left what a level three wizard does.

Do you think this will make the PCs feel better, or do you think they will instead start bitching about having to fight "over CRed" enemies?

Grinner
2013-07-04, 07:06 PM
I imagine it would depend entirely on the circumstances. Did they beat Mr. Fighter 8 earlier? If so, absolutely. If, on the other hand, they're facing him down in his lair after cutting through his minions, no. It would make little sense for him to be wounded, barring some earlier brush with the local law enforcement.

valadil
2013-07-04, 07:27 PM
I like enemies to be at 100% except when there's a reason for them not to be. Whenever I've used a weakened high level enemy the players always figure out the level, guage how tough the enemy is, and the get disappointed when he dies too soon. But if there's a known reason in story (PCs planned a well timed ambush, PCs stole wizard's primary spellbook, etc) then the fight becomes unique and interesting.

Belril Duskwalk
2013-07-04, 07:45 PM
I like enemies to be at 100% except when there's a reason for them not to be. Whenever I've used a weakened high level enemy the players always figure out the level, guage how tough the enemy is, and the get disappointed when he dies too soon. But if there's a known reason in story (PCs planned a well timed ambush, PCs stole wizard's primary spellbook, etc) then the fight becomes unique and interesting.

Pretty much I'd say this. One thing I have wanted to try though, was to put a rival adventuring company partway through the same dungeon. Litter the place with dead enemy bodies in parts of the dungeon. If the players bump into them the wizard is somewhat down on spells, the fighter is obviously bloodied up a bit, etc. Have them more or less equal level to the PCs and play them smart. The players only edge is the fact that the NPC group is a bit roughed up and maybe one or two more members more on the PC side. Unless the PCs make all the same turns as the first group, they'll catch up to them in similar shape. Now it's a fair fight. Should be interesting.

More hostile approach: Put something that is CR appropriate for when they are full health about halfway through their adventuring day. Fighting weaker enemies at full health will seem like no big deal after that. (Note: Not advisable for volatile players, volatile DMs or explosive dice)

Mastikator
2013-07-04, 07:46 PM
One thing I have noticed in every gaming group I have ever DMed for is that the players bitch that the NPCs always start encounters fresh with full HP and spell slots, despite it still being a "fair" challenge.

This is because the D&D is designed around the idea that the PCs encounter multiple squads of enemies daily but these enemies do not. The PCs have to deal with resource management and the enemies can always go full nova.
It's a game design flaw. If the PCs are to encounter enemies that are equally taxed with resource management then the PCs should either encounter enemies sporadically so they can always go full nova, or the enemies should have a 50% chance of TPK.

Scow2
2013-07-04, 08:06 PM
This is because the D&D is designed around the idea that the PCs encounter multiple squads of enemies daily but these enemies do not. The PCs have to deal with resource management and the enemies can always go full nova.
It's a game design flaw. If the PCs are to encounter enemies that are equally taxed with resource management then the PCs should either encounter enemies sporadically so they can always go full nova, or the enemies should have a 50% chance of TPK.

It's also built around the idea that a Level Appropriate challenge drains only 20% of a party's resources. They have almost no chance of losing unless they're pressing on.

holywhippet
2013-07-04, 08:09 PM
The question I have is how are you going to handle experience points? The XP for a healthy level 8 fighter is different to the XP for a healthy level 5 fighter. If you reduce the HP for the level 8 fighter to that of a healthy level 5 fighter they are still a harder opponent due to more BAB, attacks per round etc.

I suppose you could divide the XP by the amount of HP the fighter is down by. But if the players catch on they might start hitting their enemies with healing spells so they don't get less XP.

I'd say unless you have some justification for their reduced HP (like the players arranged for them to be attacked earlier) you shouldn't go that route.

Thrudd
2013-07-04, 08:23 PM
I say they are a bunch of whiny babies. (jk) :smallamused:
Seriously, I agree with what was said above, the circumstances dictate the status of the enemies they face, it should make logical sense. An NPC party who has been fighting through the same dungeon might be equally beat up. An NPC party who has been sneakily following the PC's and letting them do all the work will be pretty much full strength. An enemy waiting in its lair with minions defending it will be at full strength. It should depend on what your adventure requires. If the PC's aren't strong enough to fight head on, I guess they will just have to find another way than fighting, or find a way to gain an advantage to offset the enemy's strength. The problem comes from different sorts of gaming expectations. If your players and your game is based on the idea that the only solution to every encounter is combat, then they are right: it isn't fair to place them at half strength against a powerful full-strength enemy. They need a place to rest before they get there, or a game mechanic that lets them heal up and recover spells in between encounters. 4th edition is probably what they want to play. Otherwise, you should explain to them that fighting is not the only solution to all situations. Sometimes running away is the appropriate response. Sometimes sneaking in and stealing stuff is the best plan. Sometimes there is an environmental or conditional advantage to be found that will let them overcome the challenge. Sometimes diplomacy or bargaining is appropriate. Your adventures should be planned accordingly for these different options, if that is your intent.

Talakeal
2013-07-04, 08:56 PM
Either way it is an appropriate challenge, and thus the XP was would be roughly the same.

The party is not at a disadvantage when they come upon a 100% strength enemy because the enemy is, at full strength, still weaker than the party at partial strength.

Douglas
2013-07-04, 08:59 PM
I go with what makes logical sense for any given enemy. For most of them, they don't typically lead the kind of resource-draining risky lives that adventuring PCs do, so they walk around at full health with all their spell slots and daily abilities ready. If they had an earlier encounter with the PCs that day, or led a raid on someone else, or are busily crafting magic items and wards and such, then they will be down an appropriate amount of resources for whatever caused them to consume those resources.

Slipperychicken
2013-07-04, 09:35 PM
As a player, I don't mind this unless the enemy reeally ought to have used some resources (like if they just came out of an intense battle or were dungeon crawling), and haven't had time to rest or heal. Otherwise, I'll leave it to the DM's discretion; if he thinks the Wizards's Guild would logically be down a few spells when we meet them, that's fine with me.

Kasbark
2013-07-05, 07:52 AM
I use both. Most commonly i used enemies who are at 100%, but sometimes it just makes sense to have enemies who are wounded or otherwise not at 100%. If the heroes hear of a hill giant who are terrorizing villages or caravans, it would make sense that it is at least a bit wounded when they track it down - presumably it's fighting quite often against guards of said caravans or villages.