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Doomboy911
2013-07-05, 12:57 AM
The old one not the new one.

So a good friend of mine and I always have a little argument but first lets understand who these folks are.

I consider myself a practicing pacifist (I believe it's the best route and in all efforts attempt to achieve my goals without violence) and it can be seen in my characters, they're not physically weak but they use their force wisely and think before they act. (Well most of the time we all have our moments of going nuts with power but I try to limit myself)

My friend likes to see himself as that ideal hero who stands atop a mound of fallen foes drenched in their blood victorious. He likes the classical hero and has called me out many a time for going against the "norm". He's played a few paladins types but every once and awhile he plays a powerful monk or an antipaladin if he wants to be evil.

Too long didn't read. I'm nice he's a pooty head. Want more information read it.

So many a time him and I have but heads on how to proceed in dealing with monsters. He says slaughter them all, I want to scare them off or even better talk to them and help them with their problem. For example I had once gained telepathic control over a dangerous giant spider, I tried leading the spider away from us while we would escape and he proceeded to try and kill it because I kept trying to be nice to it. (bare in mind it had earlier tried to kill me)

I look at most monsters and see people of a different culture that deserve the respect I want from them, every goblin bandit probably spends more nights hungry than I do so maybe they need the food.

He sees a threat that should be wiped out because they're monsters.

What do you think? Are these blood thirsty beasts worth reasoning with or is their death a necessary precaution?

Tridax
2013-07-05, 02:04 AM
Err, I think it depends on the monster. A kobold rogue may in fact be a starving poor soul, while a demon from the depths of Hell is, well, a demon.

But I also think that most creatures who walk around the forests have their own lives. Who knows, maybe that bear killed earlier during the travel was just trying to protect its cubs.

It mostly depends on the character. Usually players tend to kill the bandits or let them go rather than tracing them to their hideouts and burning, raping and pillaging the place.

SethoMarkus
2013-07-05, 07:59 AM
I think the best way to approach this situation is to compromise and take turns with the play styles you each enjoy. Maybe for one adventure, you both make characters that are the "traditional hero" as you put it; slaying the "evil" foes to save the day. Then, the next adventure, you both make characters that are more paragons of "good", viewing enemies as "misunderstood" and attempting to resolve the situation without relying on violence.

If the two of you can't put aside those differences in the name of fun and friendship, maybe you just don't have play styles that are compatible with each other and should find some other way to pass the time together. Find different D&D (or your preferred system) groups, and remain as friends.

JeenLeen
2013-07-05, 10:36 AM
I think the best way to approach this situation is to compromise and take turns with the play styles you each enjoy. Maybe for one adventure, you both make characters that are the "traditional hero" as you put it; slaying the "evil" foes to save the day. Then, the next adventure, you both make characters that are more paragons of "good", viewing enemies as "misunderstood" and attempting to resolve the situation without relying on violence.

If the two of you can't put aside those differences in the name of fun and friendship, maybe you just don't have play styles that are compatible with each other and should find some other way to pass the time together. Find different D&D (or your preferred system) groups, and remain as friends.

Or even IC, your characters make an agreement like that. You two are working together for some reason (defeat evil, collect loot, whatever), so you need to compromise to work together well. On mission x, he leads; on y, you.

Doomboy911
2013-07-06, 12:43 AM
Well it's not as though he and I can't play together. We usually just go after different goals and keep out of each others hair. I'm more curious on the argument. In the long run are you better off just killing these monsters or saving them? And are they happy saved?

Brookshw
2013-07-06, 06:06 PM
Fight more mind flayers, undead, far realm nonsense? Not much grey area there. Talk to the dm and try to get different opponents where this is no longer an issue?

Doomboy911
2013-07-06, 08:37 PM
Well mindflayers are simply a parasitic manifestation that can be cleared up and undead are more like things to be cut down (I'm not Tsukiko) the soul is fine it's the body being manipulated.

QuintonBeck
2013-07-06, 09:36 PM
I honestly think the repercussions of in game moral choices will be handled however the GM deems fit. Is your GM in agreement that a monster with an "evil" tag (disregarding demons and similar) is not necessarily horrible and irredeemable and has likely been forced to evil by circumstance or is your GM more "classical", if you will, in their fantasy going by the book that goblins are irredeemable abominations and if they're evil they must be killed? Either perspective could be right depending on the answer.
Me personally as a GM I usually have my intelligent beings who are evil by choice not be entirely monsters and capable of reasoning, but if the party wants to storm in there and kill the evil SoB I wouldn't call that wrong either. They're making the world a less evil place one way or another so they're doing good somehow.
Plus, I mean sure, saving the evil thing leads to redemption sometimes but other times you just look like a schmuck when you get stabbed in the back down the road by the same thing you spared. It's all in how the game pans out.
Also, can I suggest that it would be totally awesome if you and your buddy played a pair of Paladins together who were like good cop bad cop? (Your friend could even be a Greyguard)
"One thinks there's a bit of good in everyone and everyone deserves a fair chance to face the law, the other believes slaying evil is the only way to stop it. This summer, the fantasy buddy cop movie you've been waiting for! PAL-adins!"

Nemesis67
2013-07-06, 10:21 PM
(Mostly echoing Quinton's points)

Generally it completely depends on the GM and campaign setting involved. The more classic style of game would be monsters are evil and heroes are good, plain and simple. Any goblin or orc you find are probably bandits or barbarians who are certainly deserving of being killed, people slaying them are generally perceived as good folk. Which is more fitting with your friend.

More modern styles(by my guess at least), Wizard's Eberron setting for example, take it as more of monster races are people too, and not necessarily evil. Or if they are evil, they are more of reasonable but selfish or brutal folk and not corrupt to the core. Which fits more with you, as you can easily cut them a deal if you want, considering they are characters with emotions and sympathies. Or maybe even convince them to change their ways, if you make a compelling enough case.

In my campaigns? I prefer Shades of Gray settings. Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, etc, are literal evil incarnate, but aside from that, people have reasons for doing what they do. Almost no one views themselves as the villains of their story, after all. Monstrous races are simply different cultures that may have a bit more violent of traditions, but aren't actually "evil". Undead are constructs (in an abstract definition of the word, not in game terms) powered with negative energy (which is again simply negative and not evil), orcs are a race who have had a history of being subjugated and abused by the more "civilized" ones, hobgoblins have a bit of a similar story. Even the so-called villains are doing what they're doing because they think they are trying to save the world, even if that means massacring an entire city to do so.

Though I will say that animals (as in the spider thing) are generally neutral, and killing them I wouldn't call necessarily evil or good. Self defense is self defense, and if you let it go, it may very well hurt someone else later. Also true of a number of "monstrous" races, but they can be converted with enough effort.

Mnemnosyne
2013-07-07, 12:28 AM
Depends on the situation. Consider your typical goblin clan raiding a small village; they steal the livestock and some of the crops, and sometimes injure or kill villagers during their raids. Come winter, the villagers may not survive without their food, so the goblins need to be stopped.

Now, party of adventurers goes out and defeats the goblins, routing them, but the larger part of the clan flees. The adventurers can give chase and finish them off.

One might argue that they've been driven off and their cowardly nature will prevent them from returning even if they're not killed. Another might argue that they're a threat so long as they yet live.

What's the flaw in the first one's argument? The goblins don't cease to exist when driven off; a dangerous group of creatures is a dangerous group of creatures even if they're not dangerous here and now. They run off, regroup, they may not return to this village, but three villages down they set up camp again and go back to their raiding. Is there much of any chance that they won't do exactly that, if they're let go? Would the goblins, just because they were defeated today, rethink their lives and decide to become peaceful miners, crafters, or whatever? ...odds are low.

Not to say that killing them is necessary, because with sufficient time, effort, and the cooperation of others, they could very well become a part of a peaceful society, but they're sure not going to do it on their own, and changing their society isn't going to be a matter of telling them to be good now. You're going to have to find a society that will accept them, keep a close eye on them, punish them when they get out of line, but not treat them like dirt, so that they can become respected and contributing individuals. If you have a place like that, then sure, not killing them is the way to go. Most of the time, though? You can't really achieve that goal. So while a peaceful resolution might be theoretically ideal, it's simply not practical in the vast majority of situations.

Your example of a giant spider that tried to eat you is another similar situation. You managed to survive and gain control of it, but the spider itself is a hostile and dangerous monster that can and will kill anyone that comes across its path. So, should it be let loose? If the place is far enough away that the odds of anyone falling into its clutches are very small, then sure, let it live if you really want to, but if you're anywhere near civilization, it's better to kill the thing. Especially considering it's mindless vermin. If that spider kills a hunter, or even the hunter's prized hunting dog, it's done some not-insignificant harm that could have been avoided by ending it.