The widespread restriction of wizards

[Melcar]

I have got to ask...

I personally play a level 30 wizard, where I have had the possibility to use almost any d20 product I could find when I chose feats and spells. Here I mean 3ed party products. Mongoose and Legends and Lairs have been my primary sources of power.

WE have banned no spells nor given my character any taboos or restrictions, letting me play my character, my apparent tier 1 character to the best of its and my abilities. Now... A lot of posts is about banning or nerfing the wizard class. Either by restricting spells, feats, or something else... And this I don’t understand. I know that Shapechange will make you win 90% of all encounters... combined with Gate and Wish... A wizard is an almost unstoppable force, but I will reckon that any DM worth his metal should be able to kill off a wizard or at least slow down a wizard by sheer creativity of encounters, so that an encounter takes a long time and is not determined by who cast the first Gate, Shapechange or Wish. I think it kind of throwing in the towel for a DM to alter the class... Even though I totally know, respect and understand the fact that a DM can do whatever he likes! Should it not be up to the DM to balance off the characters ingame?


Secondly as a long time wizard player, in many different RPGs, I personally don’t think its fun to cast these "victory" spells. I have created my own spells, which are very powerful, but not encounter ending in 1st, 2nd or 3ed round. I do however carry with me scrolls of these spells, but rarely use them... My question is; Does everyone have exploiting players that always when playing a wizard, creates a Pun Pun thing??? The amount of wizard restricting threads on/in this forum tells me yes, but I'm hoping no.

Again... I’m not saying that it breaking rules or that you DMs out there are a bad DM or stupid, I just simply think there is better or perhaps more fun ways of creating g a balanced game.

[georgie_leech]

The point isn't that it's not possible to shut Tier 1's down, nor that it isn't possible to not play the wizard as efficiently as possible if you don't want to just win. The problem is that this potential is hard-baked into the class; the fact that a Wizard has abilities that let them solve encounters in a single standard action while a Fighter doesn't is a problem with the balance of the game. A wizard alters reality in about 3 seconds or less, while a fighter needs 6 to stab something 4 times.

To put it another way, NBA (or whatever sport you prefer) players should not be paired with the average teenager for a game. Just because the NBA player can hold back does not make this a good idea.

[Scarce]

I personally play a level 30 wizard

Whoa-ly crap. What are you even doing at that level, smacking Orcus with a shoe and telling him to go to bed?

Let me begin by saying that a level 30 wizard, with the sources you've cited should be effectively something that a DM cannot neutralize without using yet another wizard of equally nigh-unstoppable power. Further, do you think a level 30 fighter could come close to defeating you? A level 30 paladin? A level 30 monk? The list goes on and the solution to each is the same: cast wish and make them go away. Or just kill them with any spell from 6 and up. Or any one of a dozen solutions.

Wizards become so powerful by level 10 that martial core classes are irrelevant. Nerfing them is a DM shortcut to saying, "It's okay, you DON'T have to wear a robe and wizard hat to be cool in my fantasy world!"

[Drachasor]

Whoa-ly crap. What are you even doing at that level, smacking Orcus with a shoe and telling him to go to bed?

That really sounds like something he'd delegate to someone else.

[Lachdan]

I think the problem is more that if you manage to challenge the wizard with an appropiate complex encounter (which is possible) the rest of the party will not be able to contribute to the solution. And therefore if you challenge the wizard enough to take him out, the rest will most likely be killed due to that fact.

[ericgrau]

You probably could make a mess of things with heavy optimization and sifting through 50 books for some rules loophole. Infinite loops could wreck the world too, but unlike heavy optimization loops never actually see play.

Yes for everyone else who doesn't do such things nor employ things like infinite loops, the restrictions are a bit overdone.

Depending on how many tricks you've found on your own you might have already seen some problems. But with the sharing of knowledge on the internet it could be done 100 times as hard.

[eggynack]

I don't even really understand this thread. The tier system doesn't even cover things post level 20, but the difference in power between a wizard and a monk in normal games is a pittance compared to the difference in power between a wizard and a monk in epic games. Without wealth by level, what does a monk even do at level 30 without extreme cheese? With wealth by level, what can he achieve that an equal level warrior can not? The answers to both these questions is, "Not much." Seriously, you have epic spellcasting, which is one of the more broken mechanics in the game.

As a side note, I don't see why you'd think that the tier system, which is based on nothing but first party 3.5 stuff, would continue to apply perfectly when you bring in third party material. If there's something in those books that grants any kind of equity between fighters and wizards, that's the solution that you found, compared to other folks who nerf wizards instead. I honestly know nothing about the content of those books, so I'm just going to leave this section of the argument vague.

In any case, you'll probably have to give more details about your game before we can make a solid assessment about what is going on. If your other party members are casters of a different nature, that's your answer right there. Otherwise, I'm lacking a real understanding of how your game can function without limiting wizards.

[Thrudd]

Whoa-ly crap. What are you even doing at that level, smacking Orcus with a shoe and telling him to go to bed?

Let me begin by saying that a level 30 wizard, with the sources you've cited should be effectively something that a DM cannot neutralize without using yet another wizard of equally nigh-unstoppable power. Further, do you think a level 30 fighter could come close to defeating you? A level 30 paladin? A level 30 monk? The list goes on and the solution to each is the same: cast wish and make them go away. Or just kill them with any spell from 6 and up. Or any one of a dozen solutions.

Wizards become so powerful by level 10 that martial core classes are irrelevant. Nerfing them is a DM shortcut to saying, "It's okay, you DON'T have to wear a robe and wizard hat to be cool in my fantasy world!"

I assume the game is an exercise in deity-hood. Managing one of the outer planes and growing custom races from scratch to do your bidding? lol I assume the DM in inventing Universe devouring outer gods to provide any sort of challenge, who uses the likes of Orcus and Asmodeus as lesser henchmen. Ancient red dragons fly around in swarms like so many packs of kobolds, pestering unwary demigods. Getting in bar fights with Thor and Zeus. Good times all around.

[ArcturusV]

I honestly can't even imagine what it'd be like to have a level 30 Wizard in a game myself. You're talking what... over a decade of running sessions once a week to reach a level like that? Course you could just have made it starting at Epic... but I never liked those sort of games myself. Somehow always felt... off. Lack of history, lack of growth. Too artificial.

But a level 30 Wizard? You should effectively be Sarda at that point.

http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Sarda

"We used to have 36 hour days, but I keep them at 24 now just to make everyone hurry."

When you sit down and realize that, really, your Wizard has nothing better to do than say, screw with universal Causality because he felt like eating dinner without actually having to prepare it first... how do you really "Adventure" anymore? Sure you can purposefully gimp yourself... but it's not really any source of drama and adventure when you are saying "Okay, this is BARELY going to be challenging for me, and that's only because I choose to fight with no arms, only kicking him in the shins on purpose."

Adventure needs Drama. Drama needs Risk. At a certain point, a Wizard stops having Risk unless he purposefully chooses to do so. Thus why I cut off games earlier than that personally. It's not really level 10 where it gets screwy. But somewhere in 15-17 when not only do they have high level magic, but enough of it to make the use of even truly powerful answers to problems trivial to use.

So I just end my games before that point.

[TuggyNE]

I assume the game is an exercise in deity-hood. Managing one of the outer planes and growing custom races from scratch to do your bidding? lol I assume the DM in inventing Universe devouring outer gods to provide any sort of challenge, who uses the likes of Orcus and Asmodeus as lesser henchmen. Ancient red dragons fly around in swarms like so many packs of kobolds, pestering unwary demigods. Getting in bar fights with Thor and Zeus. Good times all around.

I agree with this picture. What's really funny, though, is the people who try to stat up (say) CR 288 monsters, in all seriousness, as though there is any way those can even be conceived of. The dangers of a logarithmic power scale, eh?

[Zanos]

I honestly can't even imagine what it'd be like to have a level 30 Wizard in a game myself. You're talking what... over a decade of running sessions once a week to reach a level like that? Course you could just have made it starting at Epic... but I never liked those sort of games myself. Somehow always felt... off. Lack of history, lack of growth. Too artificial.

But a level 30 Wizard? You should effectively be Sarda at that point.

http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Sarda

"We used to have 36 hour days, but I keep them at 24 now just to make everyone hurry."

When you sit down and realize that, really, your Wizard has nothing better to do than say, screw with universal Causality because he felt like eating dinner without actually having to prepare it first... how do you really "Adventure" anymore? Sure you can purposefully gimp yourself... but it's not really any source of drama and adventure when you are saying "Okay, this is BARELY going to be challenging for me, and that's only because I choose to fight with no arms, only kicking him in the shins on purpose."

Adventure needs Drama. Drama needs Risk. At a certain point, a Wizard stops having Risk unless he purposefully chooses to do so. Thus why I cut off games earlier than that personally. It's not really level 10 where it gets screwy. But somewhere in 15-17 when not only do they have high level magic, but enough of it to make the use of even truly powerful answers to problems trivial to use.

So I just end my games before that point.
You have them kill gods. Or become gods. Questing for ascension can be an interesting capstone for an epic campaign, ends it on a good note, and gives some of the current gods plenty of reason to be rather irritated that you would even try.

Although I agree that balance at level 30 is sort of out the window.

[Melcar]

My mage does not have Epic magic, have never met a diety, is still chalenged by anti mage fighters and other npc wizards/sorcerers...


Male human Wizard 15/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Arch Mage 5/Wizard King 5: CR 30; Medium–size humanoid (human); HD 15d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d4 plus 3d6 plus 196; hp 321; Init + 9; spd 30 ft.; AC 30 (touch 22, flat-footed 25); Atk + 19/+14 melee (1d4+5/19-20, +5 silver dagger) or +18/+13 ranged touch (by spell); SQ Arcane Avatar abilities, Arch Mage High Arcana, Wizard King abilities, enhanced constitution, enhanced intelligence, SR 30; AL CG; SV Fort +23, Ref +21, Will +29, (+5 bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects); Str 12, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 23, Cha 9; Height 6 ft. 2 in.
Skills and Feats: Alchemy +21, Appraise +15, Balance +9, Bluff +0, Climb +8, Concentration +38, Decipher Script +17, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +5, Forgery +15, Gather Information -1, Heal +15, Hide +5, Intimidate -1, Jump +7, Knowledge (arcana) +50, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +28, Knowledge (Elven Culture) +32, Knowledge (Geography) +28, Knowledge (History) +29, Knowledge (Imaskar) +29, Knowledge (Nature) +28, Knowledge (Netheril) +28, Knowledge (The Planes) +28, Knowledge (Religion) +35, Listen +21, Move Silently +5, Perform -1, Ride +8, Scry +25, Search +25, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +52, Spot +21, Swim +11, Use Rope +5, Wilderness Lore +10; Automatic Quicken 1, Automatic quicken 2, Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Intelligence, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Improved Meta-magic, Insightful Caster, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe scroll, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Summon Familiar.

Base DC of spells is 35. 38 for evocation and transmutation. Casterlevel 28

I have not yet finished with the writeup, but heres a start.

The group I play with have been playing our characters since 2002. We started at level 1.

Oh and cant see how at level 30 my mage could take on orcus?

Here is a spell list to go with him.







Wizard Spells

Name Sch. Comp. Cast Time Range Duration Save SR Effect


0 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _0_ = _5_ Save DC: 35 (38)
Arcane Mark Un VS 1 act Touch Permanent - N Inscribes a personal rune. (visible or invisible)
Dancing Lights [Light] Ev VS 1 act Medium 1 min (D) - N Fragments torches or other lights.
Daze [Mind-Affecting] En VSM 1 act Close 1 round Will N. Y Creature Looses next action.
Detect Magic Un VS 1 act 60 ft. 1 min/lvl (D) - N Detect spell and magical items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison Di VS 1 act Close Instantaneous - N Detect poison in one creature or small object.
Disrupt Undead Ne VS 1 act Close Instantaneous - Y Deals 1d6 damage to one undead.
Flare [Light] Ev V 1 act Close Instantaneous For N. Y Dazzles one creature. (-1 to attack)
Ghost Sound Il VSM 1 act Close 1 round/lvl (D) Will dis. N Figments sound.
Light [Light] Ev VM 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl (D) - N Object shine like a torch.
Mage Hand Tr VS 1 act Close Concentration - N 5 – pound telekinesis.
Mending Tr VS 1 act 10 ft. Instantaneous Will N. Y Makes minor repairs to an object.
Open/Close Tr VSF 1 act Close Instantaneous - Y Open or closes small or light things.
Ray of Frost [Cold] Ev VS 1 act Close Instantaneous - Y Ray deals 1d3 cold damage.
Read Magic Di VSF 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance Ab VSM 1 act Touch 1 min Will N. Y Subject gains +1 on saving throws.


1 – Level Spells Spells: _6_ + _5_ = _11_ Save DC: 36 (39)
Burning Hands [Fire] Ev VS 1 act 10 ft. Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y 1d4 fire damage/lvl. (max 5d4)
Change Self Il VS 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl (D) - N Change your appearance. (+10 to Disguise checks)
Charm Person [Mind-Affecting] En VS 1 act Close 1 hour/lvl Will N. Y Makes one person your friend.
Comprehend Languages Di VSM 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N Understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors Di VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl (D) - N Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead Di VSM 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl (D) - N Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Expeditious Retreat Tr VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl (D) - N Your speed increase 30 ft.
Feather Fall Tr V Free Close 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Object or creature falls slowly at 60 ft./round.
Hold Portal Ab V 1 act Medium 1 min/lvl - N Holds door shut, adding 5 to the DC for forcing it.
Identify Di VSM 1 hours Touch Instantaneous - N Determines single feature of magic item.
Jump Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl (D) - Y Subject gets +30 on jump checks.
Mage Armor Co VSF 1 acct Touch 1 hour/lvl (D) - N Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Magic Missile [Force] Ev VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous - Y 1d4+1 damage/missile. (max 5)
Mount Co VSM 1 round Close 2 hours/lvl - N Summons light horse or pony to serve as mount.
Obscuring Mist Co VS 1 act 30 ft. 1 min/lvl - N Fog surrounds you, obscuring all sight beyond 5 ft.
Protection from Evil [Good] Ab VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. N +2 AC and saves, no mind control, hedge out outsiders.
Ray of Enfeeblement Ne VS 1 act Close Instantaneous - Y Ray reduces Str. by 1d6+1/2 lvl. (max 1d6+5)
Reduce Person Tr VSM 1 round Close 1 min/lvl Fort. N. Y Humanoid creature halves in size.
Shield [Force] Ab VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N Invisible disc gives +4 AC, blocks Magic Missile.
Shocking Grasp [Electricity] Ev VS 1 act Touch Until discharged - Y Touch delivers 1d6/lvl electricity. (max 5d6)
Sleep [Mind-Affecting] En VSM 1 round Medium 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Put 4 HD into slumber.
True Strike Di VF 1 act Personal Until next r. - N Adds + 20 insight bonus to your next attack roll.


2 – Level Spells Spells: _6_ + _4_ = _10_ Save DC: 37 (40)
Aganazzar’s Scorcher Ev VSF 1 act Close Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y Path of fire deals 1d8/lvl. (max 5d8)
Arcane Lock Ab VSM 1 act Touch Permanent - N Magically locks a portal or chest, adds +10 to DC.
Blazing Shield Ab VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl (D) - N Protects the caster against melee and missile attacks.
Blindness/Deafness Ne V 1 act Medium Permanent (D) Fort. N. Y Makes subject blind or deaf.
Blur Il V 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Attack miss 20% or the time.
Bull’s Strength Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Subject gains +4 strength.
Continual Flame [Light] Ev VSM 1 act Touch Permanent - N Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Darkvision Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 hour/lvl - N See 60 ft. in total non-magical darkness.
Daylight [Light] Ev VS 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl - N 60 ft. radius of bright light.
Fox’s Cunning Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Subject gains +4 intelligence .
Hero’s Luck Di VSM 1 ac Touch 1 hour/lvl/used - N +2 to a roll once.
Knock Tr V 1 act Medium Instantaneous - N Opens locked or magically sealed doors.
Melf’s Acid Arrow [Acid] Co VSMF 1 act Long 1 r. + 1r/3lvl - N Ranged touch attack, 2d4 for 1 round +1 round/3lvl.
Mirror Image Il VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N Creates 1d4+ 1/3lvl decoys of you. (max 8)
Rebuke En VSF 1 act Close 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Subject is dazed then shaken.
Reflective Disguise Il VS 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl Will N. Y Viewer sees you as its own species and gender.
Resist Elements Ab VS 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl - N Ignores 12/round from one energy type.
See Invisibility Di VSM 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Sharpen Senses Tr VS 1 act Touch 1 hour/lvl - N Subject gains + 10 in search, spot and listen.
Shatter [Sonic] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous Special Y Sonic vibrations damages objects or crystalline creatures.


Name Sch. Comp. Cast Time Range Duration Save SR Effect

3 – Level Spells Spells: _6_ + _4_ = _10_ Save DC: 38 (41)
Analyze Portal Di VSM 1 min 60 ft. 1 round/lvl (D) Special N You can tell whether an area contains a magical portal.
Arcane Sight Di VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N Magical Auras become visible within 120 ft.
Blink Tr VS 1 act Personal 1 round/lvl - N You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/lvl.
Deeper Darkvision Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 hour/lvl - N Subject can see 60 ft. in magical darkness.
Dispel Magic Ab VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous - N Cancels magical spells and effects, max +10 on check.
Displacement Il VM 1 act Touch 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Attacks miss subject 50%.
Dragon Skin Tr SM 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N +1 natural armor and + 2 elemental resistance / 2 lvl. (max +5/+20)
Explosive Runes [Force] Ab VS 1 act Touch Until disc. (D) Special Y Deals 6d6 damage when read.
Fireball [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act Long Instantaneous Ref ½ Y 20 ft. radius, 1d6 damage/lvl. (max 10d6)
Flame Arrow [Fire] Co VSM 1 act Medium 1 r. / Instant. -/ Ref ½ Y 1 flaming projectile/lvl or 1 fiery bolt/4 lvl (4d6) damage.
Fly Tr VSF 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl - N Subject fly at speed 60 ft.
Greater Magical Weapon Tr VSM 1 act Close 1 hour/lvl Will N. Y 1 weapon become +1/3 lvl. (max +5)
Haste Tr VSM 1 act Close 10 min/lvl Fort. N. Y One creature/lvl moves faster, +1 on attack, AC, and Ref saves.
Hold Person [Mind-Affecting] En VSF 1 act Medium 1 round/lvl (D) Will N. Y Holds one person helpless for 1 round per level.
Illusory Script [Mind-Affecting] Il VSM 1 min+ Touch 1 day/lvl Will N. Y Only intended reader can decipher.
Improved Alarm Ab VSM 1 act Close 8 hours/lvl - N As the Alarm spell, but works on coexistent planes .
Invisibility Sphere Il VSM 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl (D) Will N. Y Makes everyone within 10 ft. invisible.
Leomund’s Tiny Hut [Force] Ev VSM 1 act 20 ft. 2 hours/lvl - N Creates Shelter for 10 creatures.
Lightning Bolt [Electricity] Ev VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y Electricity deals 1d6/lvl. (Max 10d6)
Phantom Steed Co VS 10 min 0 ft. 1 hour/lvl - N Quasi-real magical horse appears for 1 hour per level.
Protection from Elements Ab VS 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl - Y Absorb 12 damage per level from one kind of element.
Sleet Storm [Cold] Co VSM 1 act Long 1 round/lvl Ref. part N Hampers vision and movement.
Slow Tr VSM 1 act Close 1 round/lvl Will N. Y 1 subject per level takes only partial action. -2 AC, and attack.
Spell Vulnerability Tr VS 1 round Close 1 min/lvl Fort. N. N Reduces creature’s SR by 1/caster level. (Max 15)
Summon Monster III Co VSF 1 round Close 1 round/lvl (D) - N Calls outsider to fight (1 3rd, 1d3 2nd or 1d4+1 1st)
Tongues Di VM 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl - N Speak any language.
Vampiric Touch Ne VS 1 act Touch Instant./1 hr - Y Touch deals 1d6/2 lvl (Max 10d6) caster gains dam as HP.
Water Breathing Tr VSM 1 act Touch 2 hours/lvl Will N. Y Subject can breathe underwater.


4 – Level Spells Spells: _6_ + _4_ = _10_ Save DC: 39 (42)
Acid Orb [Acid] Ev VS 1 act Close Instantaneous Fort. ½ Y Ranged touch, 1d6/lvl (max 15d6) damage divided as fit.
Arcane Eye Di VSM 10 min Unlimited. 1 min/lvl - N Invisible moving eye moves 30 ft./round.
Assay Resistance Di VS Swift Personal 1 round/lvl - N +10 on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance.
Chains of Vengeance [Fire] Ev VS 1 act Medium 1 round/lvl Ref. N. Y Subject is bound and takes 2d6 points of fire damage per round.
Dimensional Anchor Ab VS 1 act Medium 1 min/lvl - N Bars extradimensional movement.
Enervation Ne VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous - Y Subject gain 1d4 negative levels.
Evard’s Black Tentacles Co VSM 1 act Medium 1 hour/lvl - N 1d4+1/lvl tentacles grapple randomly within 15 ft.
Fire Shield [Fire/Cold] Ev VSM 1 act Personal 1 round/lvl(D) - N Attackers take damage, protected from heat or cold.
Fire Trap [Fire] Ab VSM 10 min Touch Perm. Until dis Ref. ½ Y Opened objects deal 1d4+1/lvl damage.
Gird of the Warrior Tr VS 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl - N +10 to AC, +4 to attack and damage.
Greater Magical Flow Enhancement Un VSM 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N Offers +2 bonus to spell save DCs.
Improved Invisibility Il VS 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Subject is invisible even if it attacks.
Leomund’s Secure Shelter Co VSMF 10 min Close 2 hours/lvl (D) - N Creates sturdy cottage.
Minor Globe of Invulnerability Ab VSM 1 act 10 ft. 1 round/lvl - N Stops 1st through 3rd –level spells.
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere [Force] Ev VSM 1 act Close 1 min/lvl Ref. N. N Globe of force protects, but traps one subject.
Polymorph Tr V 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N Gives one willing subject a new form.
Polymorph Other Tr VSM 1 act Medium Permanent Fort. N. Y Gives one subject a new form.
Stoneskin Ab VSM 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl Will N. Y DR 10/adamantine per hit. (max 150)
Titan’s Strength Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Str. 40 for the purpose of lifting, moving, holding. Not combat.
Wall of Fire [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act Medium Conc. + 1r/lvl - Y Deals 2d4 points of fire damage out to 10 ft. 1d4 out to 20 ft. 2d6+1/lvl if passing


5 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _4_ = _9_ Save DC: 40 (43)
Arcing Death [Electricity] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous For. Part. Y Creature suffers 1d8 points of damage/lvl; creature is stunned or unconscious.
Bigby’s Interposing Hand [Force] Ev VSF 1 act Medium 1 round/lvl(D) - Y Hand provides cover against one creature. +4 AC.
Cloudkill Co VS 1 act Medium 1 min/lvl For. Part. N Kills 3HD or less; 4-6HD save or die; 6+HD take Con damage.
Cone of Cold [Cold] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y 1d6 cold damage/level. (max 15d6)
Contact Other Plane Di V 10 min Personal Concentration - N Lets you ask questions for extraplanar entity.
Dominate Person [Mind-Affecting] En VS 1 round Medium 1 day/lvl Will N. Y Controls person telepathically.
Dream [Mind-Affecting] Il VS 1 min Unlimited Special - Y Sends message to anyone sleeping.
Feeblemind [Mind-Affecting] En VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Will N. Y Subject’s Intelligence drops to 1.
Fireburst, Greater [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act 10 ft Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y Subjects within 10 ft. take 1d8/lvl damage. (max 15d8)
Hold Monster [Mind-Affecting] En VSM 1 act Medium 1 round/lvl(D) Will N. Y Holds one creature helpless.
Leomund’s Secret Chest Co VSF 10 min Special 60 days - N Hides chest on ethereal plane. 1cu.ft/lvl up to 60 days.
Lesser Ironguard Ab VSM 1 act Touch 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Subject becomes immune to non-magical metal.
Loyal Guardian [Force] Ab VSM 1 act Personal 1 round/lvl - N Force sphere negates one attack per round.
Melcar’s Elemental Guardian [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act Close 1 round/ 4 lvl Ref. ½ Y Elemental hydra attacks enemies. 1d6/ 4 lvl per head. (max 5d6)
Mestil’s Acid Sheath [Acid] Co VSMF 1 act Personal 1 round/lvl - N Sheath of acid damages those who attack you, lets you make touch attack.
Permanency Un VSX 1 round Special Permanent - N Makes certain spells permanent.
Sending Ev VSM 10 min Unlimited 1 round - N Instantly delivers short message anywhere.
Teleport [Teleportation] Co V 1 act P/touch Instantaneous Will N. Y Instantly teleports you and 50lbs/lvl anywhere.
Vulnerability Tr VS 1 act Touch 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Reduces an opponent’s damage reduction.
Wall of Force [Force] Ev VSM 1 act Close 1 min/lvl - N Wall is immune to damage and unaffected by spells.
Wall of Stone [Earth] Co VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous - N Wall with 30hp/4 lvl, can topple unto foes.

Name Sch. Comp. Cast Time Range Duration Save SR Effect

6 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _3_ = _8_ Save DC: 41 (44)
Analyze Dweomer Di VSF 1 act Close 1 round/lvl(D) Special N Reveals magical aspect of subject.
Antimagic Field Ab VSM 1 act 10 ft. 10 min/lvl (D) - SP Invisible barrier negates magic within 10 ft.
Chain Lightning [Electricity] Ev VSF 1 act Long Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y 1d6 damage/ lvl (max 20d6), secondary bolts deal half damage.
Contingency Ev VSMF 10 + min Personal 1 day/lvl - N Sets trigger condition for another spell.
Control Weather Tr VS 10 min 2 miles 4d12 hours - N Changes weather in local area.
Disintegrate Tr VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous For. Part Y Disintegrates one creature. 5d6 damage on save.
Electrical Deluge [Electricity] Ev VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y Inflicts 1d6 damage (max 15d6) in a 100ft. spread.
Flesh to Stone Tr VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Fort. N. Y Turn subject creature into statue.
Geas/Quest [Mind-affecting] En V 10 min Close 1 day/lvl - N Commands subject.
Globe of Invulnerability Ab VSM 1 act 10 ft. 1 round/lvl - N Stops 1st-4th level spell effects.
Greater Dispelling Ab VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous - N Cancels magical spells and effects. Max +20 on check.
Greater Shatter [Sonic] Ev VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous See Text Y Sonic vibrations damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Oroster’s Revenge [Force] Ab VS 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - Y 2d6 points of force damage + 1/lvl to any who attack you.
Stone to Flesh Tr VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Fort. N Y Restores petrified creature. Fort. Save DC 15 to survive.
Teleport Tracer Di S 1 act Medium Instantaneous - N Destination of teleport discovered.
True Seeing Di VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl Will N. Y See all things as they really are up to 120 ft.
Undeath to Death Ne VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous Will N. Y Destroys 1d4 HD/lvl (max 20d4) undead in 50ft. radius.


7 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _3_ = _8_ Save DC: 42 (45)
Avasculate [Death, Evil] Ne VS 1 act Close Instantaneous For. Part. Y Ray reduces target’s hit points by 50% and stuns for 1 round on a failed save.
Banishment Ab VSF 1 act Close Instantaneous Will N. Y Banishes 2 HD/lvl extraplanar creatures.
Control Undead Ne VSM 1 act Close 1 min/lvl Will N. Y Command up to 2HD/lvl of undead creatures.
Delayed Blast Fireball [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act Long Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y 1d6 damage/lvl (max 20d6) delay up to 5 rounds.
Disrupting Wave [Positive-energy] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous For. Part. Y Cone of positive energy destroys all undead in area, or deals 1d8/lvl (15d8)
Drawmij’s Instant Summons Co VSM 1 act Special Perm. Unt. Dis - N Prepared object appears in hand.
Energy Immunity Ab VS 1 act Touch 24 hours - Y Subject is immune to damage from one kind of energy.
Final Rebuke [Fear, Mind-affecting] En VSF 1 act Close 1 round/lvl Will part. Y As Rebuke, but subject must save or die.
Finger of Death [Death] Ne VS 1 act Close Instantaneous For. Part. Y Kills one subject, on a save deals 5d6 damage +1/level.
Force Cage [Force] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous - N 20ft. or 10ft cube of force imprisons all inside.
Greater Ironguard Ab VSMF 1 act Touch 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Subject becomes immune to all metal.
Insanity [Mind-affecting] En VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous Will N. Y Subject suffers from continuous Confusion.
Melcar’s Missile Storm [Force] Ev VSM 1 act Medium Instantaneous - Y 2d6 damage/ missile. (max 20)
Mordenkainen’s Sword [Force] Ev VSF 1 act Close 1 round/lvl - Y Floating magic blade strikes opponents.
Plane Shift [Teleportation] Co VSF 1 act Touch Instantaneous Will N. Y Up to 8 subjects travel to another plane.
Power Word, Blind [Mind-affecting] En V 1 act Close Special - Y Blinds up to 200 hp worth of creatures.
Spell Turning Ab VSM 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl (D) - N Reflects 1d4+6 spell levels back at caster, totally or in part.
Teleport without Error [Teleportation] Co V 1 act P./ Touch Instantaneous Will N. Y Instantly teleports you and 50lbs/ lvl anywhere.
Vanish [Teleportation] Co V 1 act Touch Instantaneous Will N. Y Teleports touched object anywhere.


8 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _3_ = _8_ Save DC: 43 (46)
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting Ne VSM 1 act Long Instantaneous Fort. ½ Y Deals 1d8 damage/lvl (max 25d8) within 30ft.
Antimagic Resistance Ab VSM 1 act Personal 1 round/lvl Special N Will save against spells to cast in dead/antimagic zones.
Chains of Antimagic Ev VSM 1 act Close 10 min/lvl Ref. N Y Chains bind and create local antimagic area on creature.
Discern Location Di VS 10 min Unlimited Instantaneous - N Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Iron Body Tr VSM 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N Your body becomes living iron, with DR 50/+3
Mantle of Egregious Might Tr VSF 1 round Touch 10 min/lvl - N Subject has +4 luck bonus to AC, attack, saves and ability scores.
Mark of Death [Death] Ev VS 1 round Touch 1 hour/lvl Will. N Y Subject is immune to death effects and has other powers.
Maze [Teleportation] Co VS 1 act Close Special - N Traps creature in extra dimensional space.
Melcar’s Holy Bolt Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous For. Part. Y 1d6+2/lvl to undead. Save or die. Living 6d6-12
Mind Blank Ab VS 1 act Close 24 hours Will N. Y Subject is immune to mental magic and scrying.
Otiluke’s Telekinetic Sphere [Force] Ev VSM 1 act Close 1 min/lvl Ref. N. Y Force globe protects one subject. Can be moved.
Protection from Spells Ab VSMF 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl Will N. Y Confers a +8 resistance bonus versus spells.
Screen Il VS 10 min Close 1 day Will dis. N Illusion hides area from vision and scrying.
Strength of Kadum Tr VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/ lvl - Y Target receives +1/caster level bonus to strength.
Sunburst [Light] Ev VSM 1 act Long Instantaneous Ref. part. Y Blinds within 10 ft. 3d6 damage or 1d6/lvl to undead.
Superior Invisibility Il VSM 1 act Touch 1 min/lvl - N Subject is invisible to sight hearing and scent, and can attack.


9 – Level Spells Spells: _5_ + _3_ = _8_ Save DC: 44 (47)
Arcana Form Tr VS 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - Y Caster become pure energy and can power spells.
Astral Projection Ne VSM 30 min Touch See text - Y Projects you and companions into astral plane
Binding Chains of Fate Ev VSM 1 act Close 1 round/lvl Will N. Y Binding chains creates a deadmagic zone around target.
Dominate Monster [Mind-affecting] En VS 1 act Medium 1 day/lvl Will N. Y Controls monster telepathically.
Elminster’s Effulgent Epuration Ab VS 1 act 60 ft. 10 min/lvl - N One sphere/lvl stops incoming magic.
Energy Drain Ne VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous Fort. N. Y Subject gains 2d4 negative levels. Save after 24 hours.
Foresight Di VSM 1 act Touch 10 min/lvl Will N. Y Sixth sense warns of impending danger.
Hindsight Di VSF 1 hour Personal Instantaneous - N You see into the past.
Imprisonment Ab VS 1 act Touch Instantaneous - Y Entombs creature beneath the earth.
Melcar’s Aurora Tr VSM 1 act Personal 1 min/lvl - N 50% spell miss chance. + 2 DC, girding and spell penetration. 1d6 damage/ round
Melcar’s Balefire [Fire] Ev VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous Ref. ½ Y Line deals 6d6/lvl (max 25 x 6d6). Caster takes 2d6 damage/lvl.
Melcar’s Disintegrating Sphere Tr VSM 1 act Close Instantaneous Special Y Disintegration in a 40ft. radius blast.
Melcar’s Spell Enhancer Un VSM 1 act Personal Instantaneous - N Confers intelligence bonus to DC of next offensive spell.
Melcar’s Spell Miasma Ab VSM 1 act Personal Instantaneous - N Makes next offensive spell affect target no matter what.
Melcar’s Weave Sphere Ev VSMX 1 hour Personal 24 hours - N Creates a concentrated sphere of weave energy.
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction Ab V 1 act Close Instantaneous Will N. N Dispels magic and disenchants magic items.
Power Word, Kill [Death, Mind-affecting] En V 1 act Close Instantaneous - N Kills one subject up to 100hp.
Shapechange Tr VSF 1 act Personal 10 min/lvl - N Can change into any creature. Up to once per round.
Summon Elemental Monolith Co VSM 1 round Medium 1 round/lvl - N Calls powerful elemental creature to fight for you.
Time Stop Tr V 1 act Personal 1d4+1 rounds - N You act freely for 1d4+1 round.
Unbinding Ab VSMDF 1 act 180ft Instantaneous - N Frees everyone in range from spells that constrain and bind.
Wail of the Banshee [Death, Sonic] Ne V 1 act Close Instantaneous Fort. N. Y Kills one creature/ lvl.
Weird [Fear, Mind-affecting] Il VS 1 act Medium Instantaneous Special Y Fearsome illusion kills subjects within 30 ft. or deals 3d6 damage
Wish Un VX 1 act Special Special Special Y Alters reality



Name Sch. Comp. Cast Time Range Duration Save SR Effect

10 – Level Spells Spells: _4_ + _2_ = _6_ Save DC: 43 (46)
Melcar’s Equilibrium [Teleportation] Co VSM 1 hour Unlimited Instantaneous - N You and the target switch places.
Melcar’s Final Solution Ev VSM 10 rounds Long Instantaneous Special Y 1d6 points of damage per spell level channeled into sphere.
Melcar’s Weave Mythal Ab VSM 1 round Personal 10 min/lvl - N Globe blocks all magic.


11 – Level Spells Spells: _4_ + _2_ = _6_ Save DC: 44 (47)
Melcar’s Weave Requiem Ab VSM 6 hours Unlimited Permanent Special N You gain control of The Weave.

Sorry the spell list is crap:smallfrown:

[Zanos]

What system are you playing in?
Arcane Avatar and Wizard King are not prestige classes I am familiar with, nor are enhanced[ability score] abilities I am familiar with.

Oh, I see lots of homebrew spells and stuff. Nevermind, I guess.

[Melcar]

I assume the game is an exercise in deity-hood. Managing one of the outer planes and growing custom races from scratch to do your bidding? lol I assume the DM in inventing Universe devouring outer gods to provide any sort of challenge, who uses the likes of Orcus and Asmodeus as lesser henchmen. Ancient red dragons fly around in swarms like so many packs of kobolds, pestering unwary demigods. Getting in bar fights with Thor and Zeus. Good times all around.

He he... thats some good fun... But no not at all. My wizard is training some apprentices and doing archeology at the moment. Thor(from dieties and demi gods) would kill my mage en the first round! Remember the always 20 on rolls for greater deities!!!

[Melcar]

What system are you playing in?
Arcane Avatar and Wizard King are not prestige classes I am familiar with, nor are enhanced[ability score] abilities I am familiar with.

Oh, I see lots of homebrew spells and stuff. Nevermind, I guess.

We play 3.x in forgotten realms. We do not play the game RAW, and yes there is a lot of homebrew spells.

The Arcane Avatar PrC is from Quintessential Wizard, Wizard King is from Path of Magic, which is Legends and Lairs product.

The question at hand was not: Look at my powerful wizard, but merely a question about wheather or not people always exploit there wizard if not restriced? And if the DM shouldn't be better at balancing the game "ingame"

Im not trying to say what is right and wrong... just simply trying to get a discussion started! :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

How, exactly, are anti-mage fighters able to threaten you? If you're playing under your full capacity, that's a whole other issue, but you can continually send astral projections from a private demi-plane, and be basically untouchable by anything short of a wizard casting wish. I mean, your spell list is weird and 3rd partyish, so I can't adequately evaluate it, but you're missing some high optimization stuff. For example, you appear to be missing any form of celerity, which is just a basic maneuver. You also seem to be missing persistent spell, which is excellent at high levels. Some of your feats are good, but some are rather mediocre, so I'd probably not have those mediocre ones, and replace them with more great ones. Craft contingent spell is a must by level 30. If your mage doesn't have epic magic, he's not playing up to his full capacity as a 30th level wizard, and is thus intrinsically restricted. Not the most important thing, but it's something. I could keep on listing ways that you are effectively self-restricting your own wizard by playing under par, but there's not much point in that, ultimately. Your wizard has just about all of the 9th level game breaking spells, and that should be more than enough to obsolete any low tier character.

Anyways, no one's questioning the ability of casters to defeat casters. Casters can obviously beat casters, because casters are better than everything short of other casters. That's just how the game is played. If you want to show that wizards should not be restricted, you have to prove that not-casters can beat casters. Moreover, because you question the validity of restricting wizards in general, the game being discussed must have halfway normal conditions. This means that you have to stick to first party material to make your argument. I'd say that you should also discuss play that doesn't take place in epic levels, but you should probably just do that out of self preservation in the argument. Let's use level 20 as a baseline, because the contention is that wizards should never be restricted, and never includes level 20 (but probably not 30. Seriously, I can't even imagine that game as a fighter).

[Spuddles]

It's super impressive that you played that character for 10 years. That's awesome. I appreciate the organic growth, and all the 3.0 spells amuse me, in a good way.

But he's poorly built and unoptimized. I'm not surprised you don't think wizards aren't powerful- you're SERIOUSLY underplaying what you can do.

For starters, you could throw out a (limited) wish to replicate Psychic Reformation and repick all your skills, feats, and spells. For a piddling amount of xp, you can be awesomesauce at whatever you like.

You don't have simulacrum or polymorph any object, for instance, but have horrid wilting (why???) and Mage's Sword.

You're in FR and don't even have any persistent spell metamagic abuse going on. You should really have all your buff spells up all day.

It also seems that you have an extremely small spell list, given how much playing of this character you've done. I have a level 7 PF&3.5 sorcerer with close to 100 spells known. I feel like a level 30 wizard should have 1,000s of spells known.


You probably could make a mess of things with heavy optimization and sifting through 50 books for some rules loophole. Infinite loops could wreck the world too, but unlike heavy optimization loops never actually see play.

Yes for everyone else who doesn't do such things nor employ things like infinite loops, the restrictions are a bit overdone.

Depending on how many tricks you've found on your own you might have already seen some problems. But with the sharing of knowledge on the internet it could be done 100 times as hard.

Eh, it's not even infinite loops. Using Polymorph Any Object to qualify for Beholder Mage, or just using Polymorph Any Object. PAO is INSANE. A sorcerer spamming that for instant whatever the hell you want? Oh look, I turned this bone into the animated skeleton of a 30 HD monster, then hit it with command undead.

Ray of Stupidity means animals are never a threat. Command Undead means unintelligent undead are never a threat. And that's just two level 2 spells. A little Shivering Touch optimization makes dragons without scintillating scales much easier to kill, not to mention everything else in the game.

Then there's fly and teleport and plane shift. Not saying that there aren't ways around this stuff, but that's not the issue. When was the last time a fighter made 4 beholders a day, just because? Or teleported across the world/planeshifted to go get a macguffin or some bat repellent?

DMing for no holds barred wizards is hard. Playing a fighter alongside such a wizard can be frustrating, especially when said wizard can create/summon/transform allies out of nowhere to be more powerful than you can ever hope to be.


What system are you playing in?
Arcane Avatar and Wizard King are not prestige classes I am familiar with, nor are enhanced[ability score] abilities I am familiar with.

Oh, I see lots of homebrew spells and stuff. Nevermind, I guess.

Read the OP, it's all there.

[Thrudd]

Whatever you guys like to do in your game is fine. Lvl 10 and 11 spells are epic, btw. Normal book rules only go up to 9. Are level 30 characters common in the world you play in, and all the monsters super powered as well? Save DC 47? What in the world could resist that besides a god-like being? A pit fiend only has saves of +19 and +21 and spell resistance of 32. You only have to roll a 2 to overcome it, and it has absolutely no chance of saving against any of your higher level spells. That is one of the most powerful creatures in the book and the most feared creature in hell, besides the arch fiends and evil gods themselves. So yeah, an arch fiend like Asmodeus or a demon lord like Orcus is definitely in the range of something you should be able to take on. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is about as powerful, it does have slightly better saves, so a slight chance that it could actually save against some your spells. But only slight. Depending on your equipment, you could potentially solo that fight.
In another generation of play, level 30 would definitely have been time to retire the PC's and start a new campaign, and likely much earlier. The lvl 30's would be at least powerful extraplanar rulers if not minor gods. The only reason you play after lvl 20 is to do an avatar trilogy/overthrow the gods or save/recreate the universe type of campaign. So that's why I reacted this way when you say you are "playing" a lvl 30 character, in the present tense. I can see having a character that you once raised to lvl 30 after an epic campaign, but not continuing after that. I did that once (though we started at 20). It ended with the PC's becoming the gods of a new universe and creating a new world in which to start lvl 1 characters. After that the stats are irrelevant, and you aren't really "playing" those characters anymore. You win. :smallsmile:

[Drachasor]

I don't know Spuddles, you seem to be laboring under the assumption a level 30 wizard is ever going to personally leave his heavily fortified demi-plane. Not sure why'd he do that.

Also, I don't think we need to bring up cheese like PAO for a PrC when there are some many things a DM is likely to allow that would still dominate the game.

[Zanos]

We play 3.x in forgotten realms. We do not play the game RAW, and yes there is a lot of homebrew spells.

The Arcane Avatar PrC is from Quintessential Wizard, Wizard King is from Path of Magic, which is Legends and Lairs product.

The question at hand was not: Look at my powerful wizard, but merely a question about wheather or not people always exploit there wizard if not restriced? And if the DM shouldn't be better at balancing the game "ingame"

Im not trying to say what is right and wrong... just simply trying to get a discussion started! :smallsmile:

I was just curious because Wizard King sounded like a cool prestige class. :smallwink: Not criticizing you for playing a different way, but doing so does affect your own experience with the class.

[Melcar]

It's super impressive that you played that character for 10 years. That's awesome. I appreciate the organic growth, and all the 3.0 spells amuse me, in a good way.

But he's poorly built and unoptimized. I'm not surprised you don't think wizards aren't powerful- you're SERIOUSLY underplaying what you can do.

For starters, you could throw out a (limited) wish to replicate Psychic Reformation and repick all your skills, feats, and spells. For a piddling amount of xp, you can be awesomesauce at whatever you like.

It also seems that you have an extremely small spell list, given how much playing of this character you've done. I have a level 7 PF&3.5 sorcerer with close to 100 spells known. I feel like a level 30 wizard should have 1,000s of spells known.


Poorly build... ha ha. Damn that a first! I must be doing something terrible wrong. Nice of you guys to point them out! :smallbiggrin:

How the hell do you get so many spell with a sorcerer?:smalleek:


I don't know Spuddles, you seem to be laboring under the assumption a level 30 wizard is ever going to personally leave his heavily fortified demi-plane. Not sure why'd he do that.

Also, I don't think we need to bring up cheese like PAO for a PrC when there are some many things a DM is likely to allow that would still dominate the game.

I have got to ask.. What is the fun in hiding on a demi plane?

[Drachasor]

I have got to ask.. What is the fun in hiding on a demi plane?

Lots of ways to still interact with the multiverse including sending your consciousness out in created creatures or the like.

[Spuddles]

Poorly build... ha ha. Damn that a first! I must be doing something terrible wrong. Nice of you guys to point them out! :smallbiggrin:

I don't mean to be rude- I am actually super jealous that you've played a character from 1st to 30!

For instance, I would never pick up burning hands on a wizard unless I was a) planning to recharge a staff that had burning hands in it via PF rules or b) doings some crafting of a friend's flaming sword.

I guess... your character could be made much more powerful. Not that I am saying it should be, or that you are doing anything wrong. That you've been able to play a wizard for 30 levels without having the game fall apart is really a testament to doing it right.

It's merely poorly built in the context of your OP- it's not a very powerful wizard on the scale of powerful wizards.


How the hell do you get so many spell with a sorcerer?:smalleek:


I have a Bachelors of Science in D&D :smallwink:

[eggynack]

I have got to ask.. What is the fun in hiding on a demi plane?
Well, you basically just astrally project yourself down to earth for adventuring purposes. That way, when you die, it's temporary and costless. I think Spuddles is overstating it, as your list is passable in some places, but it's definitely worse than it could be. You don't have that many spells known, and a decent number of them are direct damage. You could be doing a lot better.

[Emmerask]

I have got to ask...

I personally play a level 30 wizard, where I have had the possibility to use almost any d20 product I could find when I chose feats and spells. Here I mean 3ed party products. Mongoose and Legends and Lairs have been my primary sources of power.

WE have banned no spells nor given my character any taboos or restrictions, letting me play my character, my apparent tier 1 character to the best of its and my abilities. Now... A lot of posts is about banning or nerfing the wizard class. Either by restricting spells, feats, or something else... And this I don’t understand. I know that Shapechange will make you win 90% of all encounters... combined with Gate and Wish... A wizard is an almost unstoppable force, but I will reckon that any DM worth his metal should be able to kill off a wizard or at least slow down a wizard by sheer creativity of encounters, so that an encounter takes a long time and is not determined by who cast the first Gate, Shapechange or Wish. I think it kind of throwing in the towel for a DM to alter the class... Even though I totally know, respect and understand the fact that a DM can do whatever he likes! Should it not be up to the DM to balance off the characters ingame?


Secondly as a long time wizard player, in many different RPGs, I personally don’t think its fun to cast these "victory" spells. I have created my own spells, which are very powerful, but not encounter ending in 1st, 2nd or 3ed round. I do however carry with me scrolls of these spells, but rarely use them... My question is; Does everyone have exploiting players that always when playing a wizard, creates a Pun Pun thing??? The amount of wizard restricting threads on/in this forum tells me yes, but I'm hoping no.

Again... I’m not saying that it breaking rules or that you DMs out there are a bad DM or stupid, I just simply think there is better or perhaps more fun ways of creating g a balanced game.

in general when I played a wizard in a 3.5 game what I "gimped" myself rather heavily with "interesting" builds.

That way I did not have to hold back during encounters in the fear of ending the encounter the first round.

One was a Elemental Savant who made every spell possible to the least optimal FIRE!!11 type some minor control stuff like wall of xy and some utility like fly, invisibility etc... I did not even take the spells that could be used for broken stuff.

The other was a Rogue/wizard doing ranged sneak attack stuff and buffs.

So overall yes I do similar stuff ^^

[Melcar]

I don't mean to be rude- I am actually super jealous that you've played a character from 1st to 30!

For instance, I would never pick up burning hands on a wizard unless I was a) planning to recharge a staff that had burning hands in it via PF rules or b) doings some crafting of a friend's flaming sword.

I guess... your character could be made much more powerful. Not that I am saying it should be, or that you are doing anything wrong. That you've been able to play a wizard for 30 levels without having the game fall apart is really a testament to doing it right.

It's merely poorly built in the context of your OP- it's not a very powerful wizard on the scale of powerful wizards.



I have a Bachelors of Science in D&D :smallwink:

Yeah... I think its cool too. We still have a lot of fun and dont go fighting or killing that much any more. But what I still love, is that there is so much history and good times in them characters... some times it takes hours just to get started because we keep falling back on funny stories from years ago.

I take no offence in you stating that my wizard is poorly build. He was not build as a level 30 powerhouse, but through natural progression from 1-30 and I totally acknowledge that Combat Casting was a poor if not directly wrong choice. Thanks to you, it will be changes next session through Limited wish and Psychic Reformation. Muhahaha...

The reason for not having epic magic is simply. I dont like it. I have never thought it fitted Forgotten realms, and since I never realy had any need for more power I just thought I would do without it. I created my own way of casting 9+ true dweomers.

The reason for having so many direct damage spells is that I have never realy looked into the whole optimization(exploitation) of the game. In 2ed when I started Horrid Wilting was a cool spell... so naturally I chose it. I have always been bit of a blaster, and took spell acording to that. I see though, that that is an un-intetional limitation of the possibilities of a wizard. But it fits the character...

When we do fight, monsters usually are from Epic level handbook, with some massive saves in the 50-60-70... so even though my mage have a high DC of spells... they are not neerly high enough to take down all of them.

[eggynack]

Yeah... I think its cool too. We still have a lot of fun and dont go fighting or killing that much any more. But what I still love, is that there is so much history and good times in them characters... some times it takes hours just to get started because we keep falling back on funny stories from years ago.

I take no offence in you stating that my wizard is poorly build. He was not build as a level 30 powerhouse, but through natural progression from 1-30 and I totally acknowledge that Combat Casting was a poor if not directly wrong choice. Thanks to you, it will be changes next session through Limited wish and Psychic Reformation. Muhahaha...

The reason for not having epic magic is simply. I dont like it. I have never thought it fitted Forgotten realms, and since I never realy had any need for more power I just thought I would do without it. I created my own way of casting 9+ true dweomers.

The reason for having so many direct damage spells is that I have never realy looked into the whole optimization(exploitation) of the game. In 2ed when I started Horrid Wilting was a cool spell... so naturally I chose it. I have always been bit of a blaster, and took spell acording to that. I see though, that that is an un-intetional limitation of the possibilities of a wizard. But it fits the character...

When we do fight, monsters usually are from Epic level handbook, with some massive saves in the 50-60-70... so even though my mage have a high DC of spells... they are not neerly high enough to take down all of them.
That's all entirely reasonable. It's just rather non-indicative. You're not being restricted by house rules or a DM, but you're being restricted by a lower amount of optimization, and a desire to avoid more broken stuff. Wizards need to be restricted to be balanced with the low tiers, whether it's the DM who does it, or the player. Also, high saves aren't anywhere close to enough to stop a prepared high level wizard. Many of the wizard's best spells skip saves and SR entirely, and some of them can even bypass an antimagic field. Wizards are cool like that.

[Eldan]

Well, you basically just astrally project yourself down to earth for adventuring purposes. That way, when you die, it's temporary and costless. I think Spuddles is overstating it, as your list is passable in some places, but it's definitely worse than it could be. You don't have that many spells known, and a decent number of them are direct damage. You could be doing a lot better.

This perhaps needs a bit more information.

Astral Projection creates a long-lived, perfect copy of yourself. You can send that copy adventuring, you just have to keep your body safe. The safest place to be is a world you created yourself, hence Demiplane.

[Melcar]

I was just curious because Wizard King sounded like a cool prestige class. :smallwink: Not criticizing you for playing a different way, but doing so does affect your own experience with the class.

True... They are cool! :smallbiggrin:

[Spuddles]

Many of the wizard's best spells skip saves and SR entirely, and some of them can even bypass an antimagic field. Wizards are cool like that.

To be fair, 3.0 had a noted dearth of these. The infamous orb spells first appeared in Tome & Blood, required touch attacks, and had saves. Not sure if they were SR: No or not, though.

Playing though 30 levels since 2002 is going to leave you with things like Polymorph Other.

[Krobar]

I don't generally exploit my casters' power to auto-win. That's not fun for me, let alone anyone else in the game. I tend to not be very optimal when it comes to character design. I pick a theme I like at the moment, and build around that, rather than build to be the most bad*** in the world.

Optimizing with a level here and a dip there always seems to me to be rules raping to take advantage. If that's what you want in your games, more power to you. We don't play like that. We pick a class and stick with it. Maybe one class change when we reach epic levels or something, or on prestige class, but that's about it. No 2 levels of this, 2 levels of that, 5 levels of the other, 4 levels of something different, and 7 levels of whatever else.

[Melcar]

Polymorph Other I have, but I have never found much use for it... is it realy that good?

[Spuddles]

Polymorph Other I have, but I have never found much use for it... is it realy that good?

Polymorph Self/Other became polymorph (lvl 4) and baleful polymorph (lvl 5) in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion.

On context of buffing, polymorph (other) is AMAZING. War Troll gives your friend stunning blow- all his attacks force stun checks. Hydra gives standard action full attacks of 12 heads. Firbolg sets your friend's base str to 32.

At your level, offensive polymorph (so baleful or other) is pretty useless.

[Daisuke1133]

Not sure if they were SR: No or not, though.

They weren't. But the revised versions can't target multiple creatures/objects; which might have been the rational for making them ignore spell resistance and being made instantaneous conjurations instead of evocations. Plus they could be used like grenades, so that your target had to make reflex saves against the splash damage.

All in all, I would say that the orbs were always pretty powerful.

[Spuddles]

I feel like I am corrupting you, Melcar. It'd be a real shame if ******* compulsive optimizers like me ruin your game

[Cheiromancer]

Probably the gold standard for a wizard "fix" would be to impose restrictions that don't affect casual players. Too often a fix will leave enough loopholes for optimizers to exploit but render the class joyless for everyone else.

I think the goal of a fix should be to make it harder to accidentally overshadow the rest of the party and frustrate the DM. In other words, players should still be able to build cool characters without risking harm to the overall game experience.

[Melcar]

I feel like I am corrupting you, Melcar. It'd be a real shame if ******* compulsive optimizers like me ruin your game

Dont be silly... Its very kind of you to think like that, but its nice/fun to learn new stuff about a game i have known for so long. Even now 10-15 years since I started playing D&D I can still be surppriced and lean new stuff. What a great game!!!

After thnking and re-reading my char. I have to say that I see that some feats are for the cool-effect and not for sheer combat prowes. But I feel it fits the character... so screw it!:smallbiggrin:

I was thinking though... Does anyone have a writeup of a fully optimized, non-restricted wizard 3.5 rules? I would very much like to se such a creature! :smalleek:

[J-H]

Google say this good place to start:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

[Elycium]

Whoa-ly crap. What are you even doing at that level, smacking Orcus with a shoe and telling him to go to bed?



You can always try to mess whit Larloch.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Again... I’m not saying that it breaking rules or that you DMs out there are a bad DM or stupid, I just simply think there is better or perhaps more fun ways of creating g a balanced game.

Yes, there are ways to have fun in an imbalanced game. But the problem is that the D20 experience and leveling system assumes and asserts that a level in monk is equivalent to a level in wizard, which is patently false. This is unfair to new GMs and players alike.

[Xervous]

Lazy wizard outline.


Wizard 5 / incantatrix 3 / dweomerkeeper 3 / incantatrix +7 (10) / anything else

End result: wizard 5 / incantatrix 10 / dweomerkeeper 3 / any 2

Feats:

Wizard: scribe scroll
Human: extend spell
Flaw:
Flaw:
Otyugh hole: Iron Will
1:
3: Southern magician
wizard 5: traded out for spontaneous divination
6:
incantatrix 1:
9: craft contingent spell
12:
incantatrix 4: selective spell
15:
incantatrix 7:
18:
incantatrix 10:

You have oodles of feats to use for just about whatever, people feel free to fill this in if you deem it necessary.

One level of cleric could be mixed into this to save a few feats and to open up divine metamagic shenanigans.

[Spuddles]

Google say this good place to start:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

It's good for practical optimization.

Here's an old playground thread discussion of "Cindy" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136914), the first real concrete example of metamagic abuse. I would put it at the upper threshold of practical optimization, before you get into infinite loops, nanobots, or Gating Phanes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) to be eaten by your Illithid Savant.

And here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258580) a list of famous TO builds, like nasty gentleman (and his nasty tricks) and nanobots. Some have been found not to work, like The Wish & The Word.

[Karnith]

I was thinking though... Does anyone have a writeup of a fully optimized, non-restricted wizard 3.5 rules? I would very much like to se such a creature! :smalleek:
It's not a single character, but you may be interested in taking a look at Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138) to get an idea of what kind of buffs/defenses/etc. are possible with a high-op party full of spellcasters.

[Spuddles]

It's not a single character, but you may be interested in taking a look at Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138) to get an idea of what kind of buffs/defenses/etc. are possible with a high-op party full of spellcasters.

Oooh, good link. That's a great example of persistent spell abuse.

[Melcar]

You can always try to mess whit Larloch.

Larloch is supposed (as of Ed Greenwood) to be around level 47. So he is well out of my league. And he is supposed to be über powerful, so im guessing I would fall before I even saw him! :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

My mage does not have Epic magic, have never met a diety, is still chalenged by anti mage fighters and other npc wizards/sorcerers...

(spells)

Ya that's what I thought. Then don't worry about it. You are not the kind of wizard to restrict. Others are polymorphing into wartrolls, 1 shotting anything with a low dex/int with the right spells and so on. The most abusive thing you're doing is bypassing SR. It's possible that you are also polymorphing into abusive forms from X splatbook, but based on the rest I'm going to take a wild guess that you are not.

You do have some decent battlefield control spells on that list. It's not like you're playing an ineffective wizard. You simply aren't pulling abusive tricks.

The links people are giving and tricks people are mentioning here give you an idea of the problems you and your DM are missing out on. So it's an educational experience but an education on what to avoid rather than what to use to make your build better.

[Melcar]

Ya that's what I thought. Then don't worry about it. You are not the kind of wizard to restrict. Others are polymorphing into wartrolls, 1 shotting anything with a low dex/int with the right spells and so on. The most abusive thing you're doing is bypassing SR. It's possible that you are also polymorphing into abusive forms from X splatbook, but based on the rest I'm going to take a wild guess that you are not.

You do have some decent battlefield control spells on that list. It's not like you're playing an ineffective wizard. You simply aren't pulling abusive tricks.

The links people are giving and tricks people are mentioning here give you an idea of the problems you and your DM are missing out on. So it's an educational experience but an education on what to avoid rather than what to use to make your build better.

I have my very powerful homebrew spells and PrC from 3ed party sources which even though some might say is OP still fits the character concept. As you say I have never used Gate or Shapechange to abusive levels... I have though had to, in a wizard dual with a friend of mine had to Shapechange into a Demi Lich... to win the battle... third time we tried. But "in game" I don’t really use it...

The links I sought after was I you point out an education in what is possible. to "broaden my horizon" so to speak. Because I was unaware of the options and couldn’t understand why so many people was talking about restricting the wizard. But I am starting to see that if you have a crafty player, that disregard balance and possible the overall fun (no offence) then you need to do something...