help building a newbproof druid. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 03:48 AM

So a new player is joining my D&D campaign, and the group is kind of at the high end of mid-op. She is interested in playing a druid and being an elf, and while my normal limit for this campaign is t3, I am perfectly willing to make exceptions for new players to have t1 & 2 classes. She really has played 2 sessions of 4e, and that is the sum total of her roleplaying experience, so I have agreed to make her character. Unfortuntely I am uncertain of exactly how to make an easy character to play, I know how I would do it, but I am a complication junky, so I need some help keeping it simple, without just picking natural spells and several instances of toughness.

Current skeleton

Elf druid 12
Str 8, dex14, con14, int12, wis21, cha 10
Skills: concentration 15, spellcraft 15, spot 15, know:nature: 10, survival 10, handle animal 5, ride 5

Feats:
1) spell focus (conjuration)
3) augment summoning
6) natural spell
9) ???
12) ???

Keep in mind that she is keeping up with a fairly caster heavy party, that has a strong tactical mindset (even amoung the inexperienced players), so I don't want her to find it hard to contribute.

The other party members
Strong heart halfling rogue5/assassin5/swordsage2 (NE)
Tibbit dread necromancer 12 (CE)
Elf sorcerer 12 (other newb) (CN)
Elan psion5/uncarnate12 (given leave due to ml loss) (N)
Human Swordsage10/shadowsun ninja1/barbarian1 (works better than you would initially think) (CE)

Additional note: good alignment and anything requiring it are off the table. The party has a strong evil and chaotic bent (and yes I allowed an evil shadow sun ninja, but that's due to personal feeling about both the class and the character taking it), so a good or lawful druid is likely to issues with the kind of behavior and tactics this party routinely engages in.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 03:55 AM

Mnemnosyne

2013-07-05, 04:04 AM

I think it would be wise to find out how she would like to play this Druid. You say she's interested in it, but not why or what attracted her to the Druid class in the first place. If you build for summoning, for example, you may discover that she primarily wanted to wildshape and most of her feats are wasted.

If she wants to summon, eggynack's suggestions are good. Ashbound and Rashemi elemental summoning are good at that level.

If you're enforcing the handle animal rules to control her animal companion, max out the skill.

If she wants to wildshape, pick feats that will help with that. The well known dragon wildshape at 12, and some of the others. I'm not a big fan of cryohydra wildshape, but I love aberration wildshape. And make sure to explain the enhance wildshape spell to her, and go through a list of solid creatures to shift into.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 04:04 AM

Well, if she's summoning anyway, maybe you should just keep tossing feats at that. My favorites are ashbound and rashemi elemental summoning, though I think there are some other ones that are worthwhile. I would probably move the skill selection a little towards full points into anything, but it's not a big deal. The thing is, the build construction of a druid is pretty newbproof to begin with. It's all down to spell selection, summoning choices, magic items, wild shape forms, and animal companion choice, possibly in that order. As long as you point her towards good options out of those, it's not that hard to play. The biggest issue for new players is the book keeping of it all, so you might need to help out with that. So, what particular facet of this do you need help with? Depending on the answer, different recommendations are necessary.

Mostly feat choices, but a simple sample spell list, list of mostly easy to use summons, and animal companion recommendations would be appreciated. I know what of these I would pick, but as stated I am a complication junky, leading me to naturally pick things that aren't exactly newb friendly. I tend to pick fairly niche spells (and MAKE them relevant), obsess over the best summon for a particular situation and otherwise get weird with things. This is not a situation for weird and niche, but general and widely applicable. I really have a hard time getting into a newb mindset and any help is appreciated.

sleepyphoenixx

2013-07-05, 04:05 AM

Summoning is probably the most newb-friendly choice for a druid since you can experiment with the different spells while still always having an useful option.
It's a lot of paperwork though. Add Wild Shape to that and you have a lot of calculating and bookkeeping for a rookie.

A simpler option would be to take the deadly hunter variant (UA) to cut down on the complexity and focus on BFC and buffing.
Throw in Zen Archery to have an easy "something to do when you're saving spells" option that fits thematically with an elf druid.
It won't be the strongest build ever but it's easy to play and not too confusing.

Ketiara

2013-07-05, 04:23 AM

I personally like to keep it simpel by ws into a an eagle and casting spells. Or ws into a steel dragon and do a bit of melee along with breaths, while im all buffed out.

If you have many casters in the groupe you could have a dire bat as companion and have it carry one of the casters around. (You could have said caster control the companion to keep it simple for the newbie).

eggynack

2013-07-05, 04:31 AM

Mostly feat choices, but a simple sample spell list, list of mostly easy to use summons, and animal companion recommendations would be appreciated. I know what of these I would pick, but as stated I am a complication junky, leading me to naturally pick things that aren't exactly newb friendly. I tend to pick fairly niche spells (and MAKE them relevant), obsess over the best summon for a particular situation and otherwise get weird with things. This is not a situation for weird and niche, but general and widely applicable. I really have a hard time getting into a newb mindset and any help is appreciated.
Well, if you go with the feats I recommended, she'd obviously be well of summoning orglashes and thomils. The downside to this approach is that those summons are probably some of the most complicated. The probably bigger upside is that they're powerful enough that she could proceed through the game without summoning anything else. Thus, she could cut the high level summoning list down to two. For summons, you could always just go with a brown bear, converting it to a dire bear next level. That's probably a simple enough thing to work out. A good spell list will probably take longer to figure out, but the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) might be able to help out with that, among other things. It's certainly nowhere near as comprehensive as Treantmonk's wizard guide, but it's helpful. In the meantime, I'll just toss out my hearty recommendation of the heart of X spells from complete mage, particularly heart of water, and work out a better list later. Also, primal instinct from dragon magic. +5 to initiative is nothing to be scoffed at. As one final note, natural bond from complete adventurer is a fairly low complexity feat, so that might be worth consideration.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 04:40 AM

I personally like to keep it simpel by ws into a an eagle and casting spells.

If you mean this figuratively, it's a good plan, but eagles don't really work for it. As far as I know, eagles all have average maneuverability, which means they don't get free hover, which makes it difficult to cast spells while flying around. Instead, go with something in the desmodu X bat line from the MM II page 65. They get good maneuverability, high defense, and if you cast enhance wild shape from the SpC, 120 foot blindsight for hours/level. I said desmodu X bat instead of desmodu guard bat because the choice between the three is a bit of a matter of preference. Basically, if you need to go into an area that's only suited for medium creatures, or don't plan to enter combat, the guard bat is actually probably the best. If you plan to sometimes enter combat, the other two forms are probably better.

Elric VIII

2013-07-05, 05:50 AM

I generally do 4 things for newbie Druids:

1) Use the ACF from PHBII that trades Wildshape for at-will shapeshifting.

2) Make Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps work with that ACF.

3a) Let them use the Urban Companion ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) for a little utility buddy.

3b) Let them start with whatever animal they want (within reason) and adjust the stats to a progression (rather than changing out for better ACs at higher levels).

4) Make them up a quick reference sheet with the ACFs and AC stat progressions.

The basic idea behind this is that the most complex and tedious parts of a Druid id AC and Wildshape optimization and management; whereas just picking any old spells will usually come in handy. So, by making the Wildshape and AC more streamlined you take off a lot of the stumbling blocks of playing a Druid.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 05:56 AM

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 06:10 AM

The problem with making a powerful druid is that most of the options for making a druid powerful involve the some of the most convoluted D&D rules. Summoning and wildshaping means having to use polymorph rules and run multiple monsters.

Unless your noob player is familiar with recalculating everything on her character sheet, you may want to reconsider pushing her towards polymorph/summoning.

If you don't mind making up character sheets for her greenbound summons, rashemi elementals, and all her animal forms, and she doesn't mind running a lion, a druid turned into a bat, and a pack of storm orglash storm elementals, then alright.

Not sure on the set up of your game- if you're playing out of books, it may be best to try and keep all her spells coming from only a couple sources, like the PHB & SpC.

If you're using laptops, or don't mind writing/printing stuff off, a sheet with the good stuff on it is very valuable.

I would recommend a control/blaster/buffer druid.

Control with entangle and wall of thorns.
She can put bull str & halo of sand on her AC.
For blasting, get her some rings of mystic fire & mystic lightning, and energy sub (lightning) and energy admixture as feats. A rod of empower (lesser) would be neat, too.

In her 5th level slot, she can prepare an energy admixtured produce flame that does 1d6+5 lightning and and 1d6+5 fire damage. With her two rings, she can add 4d6 fire & 4d6 lightning damage. Total damage is 10d6+10 damage on a ranged touch attack, and she can make CL number of these attacks.

Point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot would all greatly up her damage. At level 8, she'd be throwing out 3 of these attacks a round. If haste is out, she gets 4 attacks per round.

A scaled down version would simply be mystic fire ring, produce flame, lesser metamagic rod, and rapid shot.

I like this setup for noobs because it's easy to pull off, scales with as many resources as you want to put into it, you get to roll a lot of dice (multiple attacks a round, fist full of d6), it's actually pretty powerful, and it doesn't have a particularly high opportunity cost or preclude you from doing cool stuff with your spells. Unlike most blasting, it is very efficient, so you still have room for stone shape or restoration or whatever.

As she gains more familiarity with the game, you can start introducing more stuff, but if she ever always has a strong backbone to fall back on- burninating.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 06:14 AM

Summoning and wildshaping means having to use polymorph rules and run multiple monsters.

Actually, according to the errata, wild shape is based on the alternate form special ability, rather than polymorph. It kinda supports your point that druids can be frigging complicated. Also, getting full use out of gray text is fun.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 07:05 AM

I'm not really looking at going too far down any specialization hole, at least until she's given the character a whirl and chooses an aspect from there. Given that we already have a minionmancer (dread necro), 2 BC'rs (the psion and sorc), and damage dealers (the assassin and swordsage) she doesn't have an immediate hole to fill, giving her the freedom to make her own role.

Due to the normal prohibition against top tiered class I am somewhat hesitant to move too far out of what's immediately on hand (srd + 1st round completes + MM1-3 + HoB + HoH + LoM + MoI + LM + ToB), though there are several deviations from that list, but all but one of those exceptions involves magic items. Obviously I am playing these restrictions by ear, and they are ill defined, if I had something more concrete I'd include it, but this entire campaign I have been flying by the seat of my pants so I am throwing out the vague general idea.

As far as rashemi summoning and ashbound go, they are pretty much out, as there is been a blanket rule against forgotten realms and eberon material (with the exceptions of strongheart halfling and warforged).

nedz

2013-07-05, 07:48 AM

I'd be tempted to go with both the Deadly Hunter and Avenger ACFs. That way she would be able to melee and only have spells to worry about. Walking into to a game at 12th level, with 6th level spells available, is going to be complicated enough without AC and Wildshape. YMMV.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 07:50 AM

I find vancian spellcasting fairly easy for noobs- guide them to picking out some spells, and the spells do exactly what they say on the tin. They're fairly modular and self contained, really, compared to the ridiculous mess that is turning into a bat.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-07-05, 08:05 AM

Snow Elf in Frostburn gets Cha -2 instead of Con -2.

Natural Bond, to help negate the effective level penalty of a stronger animal companion. Companion Spellbond so she can share spells out to 30 ft. and use touch range spells at close range.

Get Lesser Rods of Extend, Ring of the Beast (CC), Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp, Rod of Bodily Restoration if using Luminous Armor. Regardless of magical properties, one function of a belt is to hold other items. Since a Wilding Clasp causes the clasped item to 'continue to function' when wild shaped, any items held on a clasped belt will also be usable when wild shaped.

1st- Entangle, Produce Flame, Longstrider, Enrage Animal
2nd- Creeping Cold, Splinterbolt, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Cloud Wings, Luminous Armor, Primal Hunter
3rd- Heart of Water, Sleet Storm, Icelance, Mass Resist Energy, Primal Instinct
4th- Heart of Earth, Ice Storm, Arc of Lightning, Greater Resistance, Dispel Magic, Primal Senses
5th- Bite of the Weretiger, Wall of Thorns, Call Avalanche
6th- Bite of the Werebear, Drown, Miasma, Primal Speed

Invader

2013-07-05, 08:08 AM

Summoning is probably the most newb-friendly choice for a druid since you can experiment with the different spells while still always having an useful option.

I'd completely disagree with this. Summoning is probably the worst route for a new player. As you mentioned its a lot of paperwork, prohibitively so if you run summons the way you're supposed to and are well prepared.

Add on top of that you not only have to know how to properly run your own character but you know have to know how to use hundreds of abilities from dozens of other monsters.

Its probably the least newb friendly way to go.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 08:10 AM

I'd completely disagree with this. Summoning is probably the worst route for a new player. As you mentioned its a lot of paperwork, prohibitively so if you run summons the way you're supposed to and are well prepared.

Add on top of that you not only have to know how to properly run your own character but you know have to know how to use hundreds of abilities from dozens of other monsters.

Its probably the least newb friendly way to go.

Agreed.

One exception would be to pre-select a handful of good ones and explain them to the player beforehand. Like unicorns for some healing or a crocodile for grappling.

Actually, grappling is pretty lame.

eggynack

2013-07-05, 08:29 AM

Get Lesser Rods of Extend, Ring of the Beast (CC), Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp, Rod of Bodily Restoration if using Luminous Armor. Regardless of magical properties, one function of a belt is to hold other items. Since a Wilding Clasp causes the clasped item to 'continue to function' when wild shaped, any items held on a clasped belt will also be usable when wild shaped.
Does monk's belt work with luminous armor? I'm not entirely sure either way. I'd probably also consider tossing a belt of battle onto the monk's belt at some point, and maybe adding a wisdom booster to the mix.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-07-05, 08:47 AM

Does monk's belt work with luminous armor? I'm not entirely sure either way. I'd probably also consider tossing a belt of battle onto the monk's belt at some point, and maybe adding a wisdom booster to the mix.

Of course it does, just like it works with Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor. What would give any indication that they don't work together?

eggynack

2013-07-05, 08:51 AM

Of course it does, just like it works with Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor. What would give any indication that they don't work together?
Well, mage armor and bracers of armor don't actually give you armor. Luminous armor comes significantly closer to doing so. Still, on a rereading of the spell, I notice that, "luminous armor resembles a suit of dazzling full plate," which means that it resembles armor, without actually being armor. I think I misread it as actual armor, rather than effective armor.

Studoku

2013-07-05, 10:06 AM

Grod_The_Giant

2013-07-05, 11:08 AM

I would strongly consider replacing Wild Shape with the Shapeshift variant, and houseruling the animal companion back in in one form or another. That makes things a lot simpler, and it's fun to be able to change shape back and forth at will.

I would also make use of the Spontaneous Divine Caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) rules for simplicity-- it's a far less overwhelming number of spells to keep track of. Maybe grant a few more spells known than the table shows, though.

Either way, for a newbie, I'd go whole-hog on the preparation. Prepare alternate character sheets for the best wildshape forms (or all the shapeshift forms, if going that way), the best summons (with appropriate boosts from feats), and so on. Write out what all the feats and spells do. And so on.

Darrin

2013-07-05, 11:25 AM

Is your player that set on playing a druid? If so, could their concept work with Favored Soul (possibly replacing the cleric list with the druid list- it's not RAW but it's not going to break anything) or Wildshape Ranger?

I thought the "training wheels" version of Druid is generally regarded as the Spirit Shaman. Just handwave the spellcasting stats as Wisdom/Wisdom, and it solves pretty much anything that could confuse a new player.

To address your own list specifically:

"Their own stats": Stats don't change.

"Their wildshape stats": Ditto.

"Memorised casting from an entire spell list": Spontaneous casting from the Druid list, but if you make a bad choice, you're not locked into it, and can retool your selections just by waiting a day.

"Their animal companion": Spirit Guide is invisible/incorporeal and doesn't interact with anything except the Spirit Shaman, but is still useful enough to be used by the DM to feed the PC clues, provide warnings/guidance, etc.

"Their summons." You can ease them into this by introducing specific summoned creatures slowly or steer them toward more immediate spells. If summoning is confusing them, they can retool their spell selections for more interesting spells.

Another option would be to use the Druidic Avenger/Simple Druid ACFs. This trades Animcal Companion and Spontaneous Summoning for Fast Movement and Rage (somewhat easier to pick up than Wild Shape, or trade it for Whirling Frenzy/Ferocity), and also trades Armor/Shield proficiency and Wild Shape for Monk's AC bonus and Ranger's Favored Enemy, which are also easier to explain to new players. Unfortunately, throwing a bunch of obscure ACFs at a new player can be even more confusing.

Spuddles

2013-07-05, 11:59 AM

Druid is one of the least newb-friendly classes there is when it comes to actual play because of the massive amount of bookkeeping. A druid has to keep track of:
Their own stats
Their wildshape stats
Memorised casting from an entire spell list
Their animal companion
Their summons.

Is your player that set on playing a druid? If so, could their concept work with Favored Soul (possibly replacing the cleric list with the druid list- it's not RAW but it's not going to break anything) or Wildshape Ranger?

It really depends how much work you're really willing to do for them. I've found them to be both the worst and the best, really. Give them a two page char sheet, a page for their barded riding dog, and show them in the PHB where the spells are and which ones you recommend.

Honestly, druids are so good, you can flat out not have some of their feats & class features working (spontaneous summons, wild shape, natural spell) until they get the hang of the game, and still have them do just fine with a longbow, entangle, produce flame, ice storm, wall of thorns, lesser vigor, and a war trained riding dog.

sleepyphoenixx

2013-07-05, 12:19 PM

It really depends how much work you're really willing to do for them. I've found them to be both the worst and the best, really. Give them a two page char sheet, a page for their barded riding dog, and show them in the PHB where the spells are and which ones you recommend.

Honestly, druids are so good, you can flat out not have some of their feats & class features working (spontaneous summons, wild shape, natural spell) until they get the hang of the game, and still have them do just fine with a longbow, entangle, produce flame, ice storm, wall of thorns, lesser vigor, and a war trained riding dog.

True enough. For starters it's probably enough to print out a combat and a flying WS form and one or two good combat summons.
Include a few universally useful spells (like Entangle, Barkskin, Flamestrike, Cure Critical Wounds, Baleful Polymorph). Iconic spells that demonstrate the possibilities.

Give her a taste, if she wants more she can look up the rest herself.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 10:06 PM

The current general feat outline I am considering is as follows:

Flaw (shakey): improved unarmed strike.
1st: spell focus (conj)
3rd: augment summoning
6th: natural spell
9th: extend spell
12th: multiattack

This list is based on the idea of not committing to any one strategy, but making them all doable.

Augment summoning + SNA is plenty good enough summoning, especially considering she'll have 3 other casters all with their own summons (summon undead, summon monster, and astral construct), and the necromancer's more permanent minions.

Adding either multiattack and improved unarmed strike will make the option of animal shaped offense an attractive option, capable of dealing with almost any threat of vaguely appropriate CR.

Natural spells is just the obvious druid6 feat tax.

Blastomancy is doable enough without specific support, and I would rather not lead newbs down the inobvious trap of blastomancy (because being really good at it requires significantly more optimiation than I can tech that quickly).

Invader

2013-07-05, 10:29 PM

Why are you taking improved unarmed strike?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-07-05, 10:35 PM

Don't use Shaky, there are actually some useful ranged attack spells. I'd go for any of Vulnerable, Weak Willed, or Murky Eyed.

Throw on Improved Grapple, there's no reason to have Improved Unarmed Strike because it becomes redundant with a Monk's Belt.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 11:00 PM

Why are you taking improved unarmed strike?

Bear fisting

eggynack

2013-07-05, 11:14 PM

Bear fisting
I don't think that bears need improved unarmed strike to claw people in the face. I'm pretty sure that natural attacks differ greatly from fisticuffs in this manner. I'd advise a replacement feat, but I'm not sure that you necessarily need to add flaws to the build, especially if there's not that much you can add. I'd probably toss in rapid spell, or natural bond, but she's a frigging druid. It's a nice thing, but not a strictly necessary thing. Also, natural bond helps with the, "do everything" thing, because animal companions are a thing, and natural bond is sweet. You could also consider craft wondrous item, because wondrous items are nice. Anyways, druids don't actually need any of this stuff to be good at all of this stuff at once. You could easily toss her a druid specialized for archery, and she'd still be capable of doing everything this druid does. Still, it's nice to toss her a multipurpose build, if only for signalling purposes.

Edit: Actually, are you thinking of improved natural attack? It seems possible that you are.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-05, 11:19 PM

I don't think that bears need improved unarmed strike to claw people in the face. I'm pretty sure that natural attacks differ greatly from fisticuffs in this manner. I'd advise a replacement feat, but I'm not sure that you necessarily need to add flaws to the build, especially if there's not that much you can add. I'd probably toss in rapid spell, or natural bond, but she's a frigging druid. It's a nice thing, but not a strictly necessary thing. Also, natural bond helps with the, "do everything" thing, because animal companions are a thing, and natural bond is sweet. You could also consider craft wondrous item, because wondrous items are nice. Anyways, druids don't actually need any of this stuff to be good at all of this stuff at once. You could easily toss her a druid specialized for archery, and she'd still be capable of doing everything this druid does. Still, it's nice to toss her a multipurpose build, if only for signalling purposes.

Edit: Actually, are you thinking of improved natural attack? It seems possible that you are.

Bear attack routine: claw, claw, bite

Bear attack routine with IUS: punch, punch, claw, claw, bite.

Invader

2013-07-06, 12:07 AM

Bear attack routine: claw, claw, bite

Bear attack routine with IUS: punch, punch, claw, claw, bite.

I wasn't aware bears got unarmed strikes :smallamused:

Plus IUS doesn't change your attack routine, it doesn't give you any more attacks, it just changes the damage.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 12:18 AM

I wasn't aware bears got unarmed strikes :smallamused:

Plus IUS doesn't change your attack routine, it doesn't give you any more attacks, it just changes the damage.

You can use unarmed strikes in any form, and you are allowed to make all of natural weapon attacks as secondary, thus adding an iterative of unarmed strikes to your natural weapon routines.

Invader

2013-07-06, 12:27 AM

But why are you getting 2 unarmed strikes to begin with and why are you getting 2 claws afterwards.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 01:39 AM

But why are you getting 2 unarmed strikes to begin with and why are you getting 2 claws afterwards.

By making all of you natural weapon attacks secondary you are allowed to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons first. Due to the rules for unarmed strikes they count as manufactured weapons for this purpose. Also since unarmed strikes don't have to necessarily be with your hands (or hand analogous paws), you can declare them to kicks, or elbow attacks or whatever, getting around the specious argument of having already attacked with your hands causing your claw attacks to go away. So to be technically unimpeachable it would be elbow, elbow, claw, claw, bite in the bear example. The reason you get two punches/kicks/elbows is due to BAB (+8/+3), not due to having two hands.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-07-06, 01:49 AM

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 05:10 AM

You don't need Improved Unarmed Strike if you get a Monk's Belt. It's a waste of a feat if you're not using it to qualify for something else, the only reason it's ever recommended for a Druid build is to get Improved Grapple.

There's feats at 15 and 18, but I don't want to dump her face first into the mess that is grapple rules, at least not until she had some time behind the wheel.

Norin

2013-07-06, 05:38 AM

Kung fu panda.
Also, "bear fisting" is just wrong.

Invader

2013-07-06, 07:50 AM

By making all of you natural weapon attacks secondary you are allowed to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons first. Due to the rules for unarmed strikes they count as manufactured weapons for this purpose. Also since unarmed strikes don't have to necessarily be with your hands (or hand analogous paws), you can declare them to kicks, or elbow attacks or whatever, getting around the specious argument of having already attacked with your hands causing your claw attacks to go away. So to be technically unimpeachable it would be elbow, elbow, claw, claw, bite in the bear example. The reason you get two punches/kicks/elbows is due to BAB (+8/+3), not due to having two hands.

Isn't there a lot of contention that this isn't necessity how it works and you don't necessarily get iterative attacks from unarmed strikes and all these assumptions only work if you also assume that even though the rules specifically call out the monks unarmed strikes work this way it never says anything else unarmed strikes are identical?

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 01:43 PM

Darrin

2013-07-06, 03:25 PM

Isn't there a lot of contention that this isn't necessity how it works and you don't necessarily get iterative attacks from unarmed strikes and all these assumptions only work if you also assume that even though the rules specifically call out the monks unarmed strikes work this way it never says anything else unarmed strikes are identical?

No, there isn't much contention, the PHB is pretty clear about this. For the purposes of iteratives and TWF, you treat unarmed strikes as if they were manufactured weapons. For most other purposes (mostly spell effects) you treat them as natural weapons.

The MM is also pretty clear about mixing unarmed strikes with natural weapons. If unarmed strike is your primary weapon, then all your other natural attacks become secondary attacks. If a creature with natural attacks gains IUS, or if a Druid with IUS wildshapes into an animal form, then they can attack with unarmed strike as their primary (and get iteratives as per the PHB), and still get all their weapons as secondary attacks.

That's RAW (Rules As Written). And along with that, there is of course the caveat that RAW is not on speaking terms with Common Sense, 110% silly, etc.

From a balance standpoint, there really isn't much of an issue with IUS + wildshape. If a druid wants to turn into a bear, wade into melee, and curbstomp someone with headbutts/elbows/knees + claws + bite, then that's one of the least effective things a druid can do in combat (even if it does still humiliate the fighter and/or monk... it's not exactly the druid's fault they suck in melee).

The only other objection I can imagine is the whole "Kung Fu Panda" schtick might look a little silly. But if that's what's bothering you in a game with flaming frost acid burst swords and polymorphing wizards flying around on half-dragon tuaric centipede half-ogre unicorns, then I have to wonder if checking thine own eye for a few beams might be a good idea.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 03:53 PM

That's RAW (Rules As Written). And along with that, there is of course the caveat that RAW is not on speaking terms with Common Sense, 110% silly, etc.

This is not just a RAW case. With the article I linked it is clearly also RAI (given skip was one of the creators of 3.x). You could, as a GM, rule otherwise, but that is purely a rule zero case.

Spuddles

2013-07-06, 04:02 PM

You don't need Improved Unarmed Strike if you get a Monk's Belt. It's a waste of a feat if you're not using it to qualify for something else, the only reason it's ever recommended for a Druid build is to get Improved Grapple.

Monks Belt doesn't give you unarmed strike proficiency- just bumps your damage up.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-06, 04:10 PM

Monks Belt doesn't give you unarmed strike proficiency- just bumps your damage up.

I was operating under that assumption, but I haven't really looked into it that much, so I can't say for certain it doesn't work (but as a GM I probably should know that rule). I was also going to put her in armor (thus invalidating half of the monk's belt anyway), but if it does work than maybe bracers of armor instead.

The other important equipment thought is talking in animal form. I know pearl of speech, and if she's in cat form the tibbit can talk to her, but is there any other good options there?

Spuddles

2013-07-06, 04:21 PM

Wild armor & shield gives you the armor bonus of the armor & shield you have equipped but otherwise doesn't have any rule to overwrite the armor melding with you and becoming nonfunctional. This means you can be wearing dragonhide wild fullplate and carrying a wild tower shield, then turn into a bear and keep the 9 armor ac and 5 shield ac, but not have any armor check penalties, nonp-proficiencies and also get AC from wis thanks to the monk's belt.

Kind of abusive, though.

Darrin

2013-07-06, 04:30 PM

This is not just a RAW case. With the article I linked it is clearly also RAI (given skip was one of the creators of 3.x). You could, as a GM, rule otherwise, but that is purely a rule zero case.

Skip Williams isn't always a reliable authority on unarmed strikes. I think I've seen him claim that unarmed strikes aren't natural weapons in one of those Rules of the Game article (magic weapon/magic fang be damned!). "Ask Sage" and the FAQ are at the same level of authority, "Rules As Intended", which only need be consulted if RAW is unclear. There is a great deal about unarmed strikes and natural weapons that is unclear by RAW, but not on the issue of IUS = iterative attacks and claw/bite = secondary attacks.

druidicforest

2013-07-07, 02:11 AM

From SRD, Monk's Belt:
If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.

So gains unarmed damage.. which means got then everything that are for Level 5 monk?

Spuddles

2013-07-07, 03:06 AM

From SRD, Monk's Belt:
If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.

So gains unarmed damage.. which means got then everything that are for Level 5 monk?

No. It gets the AC (wis to ac and +1 untyped bonus) and the damage on unarmed attacks (1d8 instead of 1d3). However, the non-monk wearer of a monk's belt doesn't get the Unarmed Strike ability of the monk, which means no proficiency with unarmed attacks (-4 to attacks) and more importantly, doesn't get to treat their whole body as a weapon (so no primary/secondary/etc/claw/claw/bite).

eggynack

2013-07-07, 03:11 AM

No. It gets the AC (wis to ac and +1 untyped bonus) and the damage on unarmed attacks (1d8 instead of 1d3). However, the non-monk wearer of a monk's belt doesn't get the Unarmed Strike ability of the monk, which means no proficiency with unarmed attacks (-4 to attacks) and more importantly, doesn't get to treat their whole body as a weapon (so no primary/secondary/etc/claw/claw/bite).
Unarmed strike doesn't give proficiency with unarmed attacks, which is amusing, because it means that monks actually lack proficiency with unarmed attacks. I'd give a fancy list of stuff it does do, but you can just read it yourself if you want.

ericgrau

2013-07-07, 03:29 AM

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 04:09 AM

Well it's a good thing you're building it, so that saves a lot of new player headaches. The second critical step would be to stat out a few major wildshape forms for your player, print it out and hand it to the player. Be sure to include attack routines with attack bonuses and damages. You could do a full sheet for the combat form(s), then maybe only speed and defenses for mobility forms unless the form can fight ok too. Stat out the animal companion too.

Yeah, I realized that was what I would have to do after I sobered up (the invitation was issued at a 4th of july party, and thus I was slightly intoxicated at the time, and significantly more intoxicated by the time I got home). Probably going to use a stat block as opposed to a full character sheet for the alternate forms to save some trees, keeping the irrelevant/duplicate info to a minimum.

For unarmed strikes I'd assume that everyone is proficient or that it is a special attack where "proficiency" doesn't apply, like tripping. Don't remember if it's RAW or not but IMO you shouldn't be able to punch and claw in the same full attack. Nor headbutt and bite.
As far as not being able to punch and claw, it's not raw, as per raw you may make a full iterative as a primary attack, and all natural weapons as secondary. This is stated quite clearly in both the monster manual, and the article I linked earlier.

eggynack

2013-07-07, 04:16 AM

sleepyphoenixx

2013-07-07, 04:22 AM

Actually, come to think of it, druids aren't proficient with unarmed strikes either. Thus, they incur a non-proficiency penalty. It's not a crazy oversight like with monks either, so that's the kinda thing that sticks.

That's not quite true. Unarmed strike is a natural attack, so druids are proficient with it... but only when wildshaped :smallconfused:

eggynack

2013-07-07, 04:24 AM

That's not quite true. Unarmed strike is a natural attack, so druids are proficient with it... but only when wildshaped :smallconfused:
I'm not so sure about that. It says that they're proficient with the natural attacks of the creature they become, but I can't think of any animals that have unarmed strike as part of their iteratives. If a bear could punch you in the face naturally, I would think that would be listed.

Edit: Also, what is a "natural attack"? I'd think it would be an attack with a natural weapon, in which case it'd only work with a character with the unarmed strike ability. I don't think that unarmed strikes are natural weapons for these purposes under any circumstances.

Spuddles

2013-07-07, 04:41 AM

Unarmed strike doesn't give proficiency with unarmed attacks, which is amusing, because it means that monks actually lack proficiency with unarmed attacks. I'd give a fancy list of stuff it does do, but you can just read it yourself if you want.

Didn't really think this was the thread to discuss monk's technical non-proficiency with unarmed attacks.

TuggyNE

2013-07-07, 04:52 AM

Didn't really think this was the thread to discuss monk's technical non-proficiency with unarmed attacks.

Every thread is that thread.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 04:58 AM

I'm not so sure about that. It says that they're proficient with the natural attacks of the creature they become, but I can't think of any animals that have unarmed strike as part of their iteratives. If a bear could punch you in the face naturally, I would think that would be listed.

Edit: Also, what is a "natural attack"? I'd think it would be an attack with a natural weapon, in which case it'd only work with a character with the unarmed strike ability. I don't think that unarmed strikes are natural weapons for these purposes under any circumstances.

Non-proficiency with unarmed strikes on the part of monks and improved unarmed strike holders seems a bold call. I am uncertain as to what the point of improved unarmed strike would be, or what little remains of the point of Monk. Mr. Williams (unreliable as he may be) has made significant indications to the contrary. Also note that you keep all of your feats that you continue to meet the prerequisites for while wildshaped, thus your ability to punch efficaciously (which comes from feat, not form) is unhindered, infact often bolstered by increased size. The same way normal bear doesn't cast spell, but a shapeshifted druid (with natural spell) does, because of class ability not a racial ability.

Every thread is that thread.

Not seeing how that's sarcastic.

eggynack

2013-07-07, 04:59 AM

Didn't really think this was the thread to discuss monk's technical non-proficiency with unarmed attacks.
I wasn't really the one to bring up monk's proficiency with unarmed strikes. The monk's belt doesn't give the ability "unarmed strike", but that's irrelevant with reference towards the issue of druidic proficiency. Also:

Every thread is that thread.
It may be sarcastic, but it is also true. All threads must bow in deference to the crappiness of monks.

eggynack

2013-07-07, 05:03 AM

Non-proficiency with unarmed strikes on the part of monks and improved unarmed strike holders seems a bold call. I am uncertain as to what the point of improved unarmed strike would be, or what little remains of the point of Monk. Mr. Williams (unreliable as he may be) has made significant indications to the contrary. Also note that you keep all of your feats that you continue to meet the prerequisites for while wildshaped, thus your ability to punch efficaciously (which comes from feat, not form) is unhindered, infact often bolstered by increased size. The same way normal bear doesn't cast spell, but a shapeshifted druid (with natural spell) does, because of class ability not a racial ability.

Not seeing how that's sarcastic.
The feat absolutely does not give proficiency. If it gave proficiency, it would say it gave proficiency. That is not a bold claim at all. The point of improved unarmed strike is to do the things that it says it does. Specifically, it causes you to not provoke AoO's with your punches, and it lets you use lethal or non-lethal damage, at your discretion. You keep your nifty feat in bear form, but it continues to not provide proficiency, because it doesn't provide proficiency.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 05:16 AM

The feat absolutely does not give proficiency. If it gave proficiency, it would say it gave proficiency. That is not a bold claim at all. The point of improved unarmed strike is to do the things that it says it does. Specifically, it causes you to not provoke AoO's with your punches, and it lets you use lethal or non-lethal damage, at your discretion. You keep your nifty feat in bear form, but it continues to not provide proficiency, because it doesn't provide proficiency.

So every punch thrown is at a -4 penalty? Yeah, I buy that. It's non-proficency the same way that drown healing is a thing, or the skillpoints of a first level swordsage.

eggynack

2013-07-07, 05:20 AM

So every punch thrown is at a -4 penalty? Yeah, I buy that. It's non-proficency the same way that drown healing is a thing, or the skillpoints of a first level swordsage.
Well, it's really dumb on a monk. That's obvious enough. Folks should just throw proficiency to them for free, because they were clearly intended to have it. However, druids have no such claim to the divine way of the punch, so they are unprotected by the mighty weight of RAI and RACSD. The feat clearly doesn't grant this ability, so that's all there is to it. This isn't some murky RAW issue that can be argued around. It's just an absolute truth, shone clearly through the might of plain text on the page.

sleepyphoenixx

2013-07-07, 05:24 AM

Unarmed Strike is a natural attack. If you can use it in a WS form you are proficient with it. That's RAW.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 05:30 AM

Well, it's really dumb on a monk. That's obvious enough. Folks should just throw proficiency to them for free, because they were clearly intended to have it. However, druids have no such claim to the divine way of the punch, so they are unprotected by the mighty weight of RAI and RACSD. The feat clearly doesn't grant this ability, so that's all there is to it. This isn't some murky RAW issue that can be argued around. It's just an absolute truth, shone clearly through the might of plain text on the page.

You 're talking out both sides of your mouth on this one, handing it to monks (who in theory would have gotten it from IUS), but not to IUS users who took competent classes. And normal ius is very much covered by rai (the article I linked earlier by one of the ground floor creators). And covered by racsd, as a thoroughly trained martial artist can fight as 99% as well with their fists as with a knife (though gun is better than both). And it gets plenty murky as no sample ius users have a non-proficiency penalty in their stat block.

eggynack

2013-07-07, 05:38 AM

Unarmed Strike is a natural attack. If you can use it in a WS form you are proficient with it. That's RAW.
Where does it say that unarmed strike is a natural attack? I'm not sure about that, and I've yet to receive a citation for it.

You 're talking out both sides of your mouth on this one, handing it to monks (who in theory would have gotten it from IUS), but not to IUS users who took competent classes. And normal ius is very much covered by rai (the article I linked earlier by one of the ground floor creators). And covered by racsd, as a thoroughly trained martial artist can fight as 99% as well with their fists as with a knife (though gun is better than both).
I don't see where you're getting the idea that IUS is what would give you the proficiency. Presumably, in any fix, they'd get it through their weapon proficiencies. Usually, that's the way that you get weapon proficiencies. Alternatively, they could just get it through their unarmed strike ability, without getting it from the feat that comes with it. You say that they'd get it from the feat "in theory", but I don't see why that'd be true. I don't even see anything in that link you posted that indicates that the feat grants proficiency. It just seems to restate what I already know about the feat, which is that it causes your attacks not to provoke, and that it lets you deal lethal and nonlethal damage at your discretion. Feats give you what they give you. No more, and no less.

Darrin

2013-07-07, 10:26 AM

Unarmed Strike is a natural attack. If you can use it in a WS form you are proficient with it. That's RAW.

Not entirely. Weapon proficiencies for humanoids are granted via class abilities rather than by creature type. Unarmed strike is considered a "simple" weapon for humanoids. Most creature types grant proficiencies with their natural weapons, or any weapon mentioned in their description. Humanoids get "Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class" instead.

This may be a system quirk that popped up as a result of the confusion over the multiple changes and errata for the polymorph/alternate form rules. Originally in 3.0, I think wild shape was supposed to work off of polymorph, which switched your creature type, and thus would have granted proficiency with natural weapons as per the type descriptions in the MM. The new rules/errata for wild shape used alternate form instead, which does not change your creature type, and I don't think any of the designers really noticed that keeping the humanoid type would create proficiency issues.

Where does it say that unarmed strike is a natural attack? I'm not sure about that, and I've yet to receive a citation for it.

PHB p. 251, under Magic Weapon:

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang)."

I don't see where you're getting the idea that IUS is what would give you the proficiency.

By RAW, it doesn't, but this is an area of the rules where the designers most likely felt that common sense was clear enough not to get bogged down on nitpickish details. Monks not having proficiency with their signature class ability or granting natural weapon attacks without also granting the proficiency to use them may be worth a few sniggers, but if that's the level of clarity you demand from your rules... well, ok, I was going to say something snide here, but I'm probably one of the worse offenders here when it comes to pointing out the absurdity of strict adherence to RAW. However, when I actually sit down to play... common sense is usually a much more enjoyable playing experience.

ericgrau

2013-07-07, 01:52 PM

As far as not being able to punch and claw, it's not raw, as per raw you may make a full iterative as a primary attack, and all natural weapons as secondary. This is stated quite clearly in both the monster manual, and the article I linked earlier.
Oh well just trying to make sense. It's up to the DM, you, after all.

As for the RAW it says one natural attack is the primary attack, and the rest are secondaries: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons

This article says you can designate all your natural weapons as secondary weapons, but you must use your primary limb for unarmed strikes and therefore it is unavailable for natural attacks:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Their example nalfeshnee has bite (primary)/claw/claw as natural attacks. With IUS it gets punch/punch/punch as unarmed strikes. Combining them it gets punch/bite/claw, giving up one claw for an unarmed strike.

In either case it is quite clear you do not get iteratives when using natural attacks. All your iterative secondary attacks are gone and you use natural attack secondary attacks instead. By strict RAW it appears the nalfeshnee would give up its bite instead for a single punch.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 02:41 PM

Oh well just trying to make sense. It's up to the DM, you, after all.

As for the RAW it says one natural attack is the primary attack, and the rest are secondaries: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons

This article says you can designate all your natural weapons as secondary weapons, but you must use your primary limb for unarmed strikes and therefore it is unavailable for natural attacks:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Their example nalfeshnee has bite (primary)/claw/claw as natural attacks. With IUS it gets punch/punch/punch as unarmed strikes. Combining them it gets punch/bite/claw, giving up one claw for an unarmed strike.

In either case it is quite clear you do not get iteratives when using natural attacks. All your iterative secondary attacks are gone and you use natural attack secondary attacks instead. By strict RAW it appears the nalfeshnee would give up its bite instead for a single punch.

Why give up an attack? kick, kick, claw, claw, bite

eggynack

2013-07-07, 03:06 PM

PHB p. 251, under Magic Weapon:

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang)."

Fair enough, but where does it say that bears are proficient with unarmed strikes? As I mentioned, it doesn't appear to be part of any of their full attack routines, and druids only grant the proficiencies that the animal gets.

By RAW, it doesn't, but this is an area of the rules where the designers most likely felt that common sense was clear enough not to get bogged down on nitpickish details. Monks not having proficiency with their signature class ability or granting natural weapon attacks without also granting the proficiency to use them may be worth a few sniggers, but if that's the level of clarity you demand from your rules... well, ok, I was going to say something snide here, but I'm probably one of the worse offenders here when it comes to pointing out the absurdity of strict adherence to RAW. However, when I actually sit down to play... common sense is usually a much more enjoyable playing experience.
I'm not asking why monks should get proficiency with unarmed strikes. The answer to that is obvious. I'm asking why it would be necessarily granted through that feat. It could have been listed under their weapon proficiency list, or under the unarmed strike ability, or even under flurry of blows. I can't see where common sense dictates that it must be granted through that feat, especially when the capacity of that feat is extremely well defined.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-07, 04:13 PM

This thread has gone off on a serious tangent, and as much as I love good tangents (and sines and cosines), it's probably time to rein it in. Everyone has said their piece, valid points were made on both sides, but I can tell you with absolute certainty what the GM in question will rule in the game in question(he's a close friend of mine, and incredibly handsome). The ruling on the field will be IUS = proficiency, monk's belt does not give IUS, and punch, punch, claw, claw, bite is okay. This decision renders IUS still needed for bear fisting, while still leaving monk's belt as a good item choice, and is consistant with an earlier ruling involving tibbits. I am not particularly shy about non-raw, even non-rai rulings, this is pretty evident given I have allowed tibbits to use natural spell to cast spells in cat form (in all fairness I did inform the player in question that this was only my ruling and most GMs would not allow it), note this is not the previously mentioned tibbit ruling, that was involving something else entirely.