My players make all their saves?

[GlorinSteampike]

So I've been DM'ing pretty consistently for about 2 years now. I have a bad habit of using a spell of SLA's and Su abilities for my enemies(Also see; Book of Nine Swords). Part of this is due to dynamic encounters that aren't based on terrain or combat feats, another part of this is due to my players always classing around magic abilities as well. We do pretty high fantasy stuff and my players always seem to make their saves. I'm talking level 8 characters with +10s across the board.

It feels totally unrealistic and totally cheap to make them save vs 20+, and to throw repeated Smashy combats is no fun for anyone I've found out. They're not quite high enough for most of the No-save spells(nor do my games usually get to that point. My players and I both agree the game breaks around lvl 13). And action economy runs pretty rampant. I don't know if I am just running too high level of games, if I am letting them optimize too much which, I hate the idea of limiting the players, especially when these guys are not taking any tier 1 class most of the time. I did figure out the aggregated BAB/Saves thing, so multiclassing doesn't make saves go through the roof.

And they go out of their way with class features and feats to get bonuses to saves, and still have enough spellcasting(ie fly, wings of cover, dark way) to get through most obstacles, so its not like they aren't investing in this stuff. But its become a challenge to really... well, challenge them in combat without making them eat flat damage. Even the social encounters they can epically fail on, but will make it through the combat. (Not that they aren't good at the role playing aspect either).

TL;DR Players are nearly immune to practical magics without many magic items/character cheesing, what do?

[CyberThread]

maybe you are using to weak of monsters, or not understanding some sort of rule interaction, which is giving your players to much of an advantage.

[GlorinSteampike]

Actually my players are constantly complaining that I am throwing monsters of much higher CR at them even though they are handling the fights without being affected at all. This is over the course of 3 games(1 albeit very short due to an unfortunate interection with a werewolf), and the players can play radically different stuff though someone is always a bruiser, someone is usually a rogue, and someone is always a half caster. Never a full caster past a few levels though.

My players killed a council of 13th level specialist wizards(DCs 20-22) at level 6(5 players), one by one on the pretense that they just didn't have their combat spells up. Only time someone played a full caster, and he was a 6th level illusionist who failed the chain lightning saved and died. Everyone else had evasion and made it, or enough HP to survive the fight. No other specialist could land any spells on them. Thats the kind of stuff that i would've liked to atleast be an endurance test of their /day powers but it just didn't seem like much of an issue to them. I think one player had a cloak +1 and a +2 will save vs mind affecting and thats it for item help.

To be fair, whenever they do fail a save they all seem to roll terrible and things go south pretty fast.

[Flickerdart]

Level 8 wizard can have an Intelligence of 24 easily (18, +2 racial, +2 levels, +2 item). Casting level 4 spells, that's 10+4+7, or 21. 22 if he has Spell Focus. Why do you feel back using level-appropriate DCs that your players have adequate saves to weather?

If this is still a problem, just use no-save spells. Solid Fog? No save. Black Tentacles? No save. Summon Monster? No save. Polymorph into a hydra? No save.

Also, what kind of level 13 superwizard doesn't have all-day buffs? You're letting your players walk all over you, man.

[Diarmuid]

I hate to bring it up, but have you proofread their characters to make sure they actually have saves that high, and are they rolling their saves in front of you?

[BowStreetRunner]

Actually my players are constantly complaining that I am throwing monsters of much higher CR at them even though they are handling the fights without being affected at all.
This is actually pretty typical of most parties I have played with on either side of the DM screen. Until they start ending encounters with every player one hit away from death and all of their spells and potions used up, you need to have a thick skin and ignore their whining. Go ahead and start optimizing some of their encounters to have higher save DCs - especially the less lethal effects. My personal favorite is high will saves, as you can do some wonderfully rude things to a PC this way without actually killing them. :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

You're throwing singular, high-CR enemies at them? That's your issue, not their saving throws.


Your example of the mage council is also highly unrealistic. At 13th level most campaign settings assume the individual is of legendary power and recommend that the DM starts throwing assassins at that person unless he takes steps to conceal himself from his enemies. An entire council of mages would have to be constantly prepared for attack with spells that tip the scales in their favor, and they usually would have the resources for it.

Not only that, they have access to divinations that could tell them weeks in advance about an attempt on their lives and would likely have the intellect to know such spells exist (and the ways to use those spells to forewarn themselves). While this wouldn't be an exact science even at 13th level, they would have enough forewarning to keep their guard up until the next time they cast those divinations and get a new set of information.

Granted the council would seem hellishly paranoid to the players for undertaking such measures, but that is certainly realistic for legendary beings who can warp reality.


Also each character has a weak save, and the are powerful spells that simply don't allow a saving throw (Black Tentacles, for example).

[Invader]

Or just lie about whether they make them or not. I fudge stuff all the time for my players and its usually to make things harder so they feel like there's a chance of failure.

Its been my experience that players always want to make their saves, attack rolls, skill checks, what have you, because deep down everyone wants to "win" and that's fine but its the fights that they are close to losing that they have the most fun with.

Your players wont care if they fail saves occasionally if they have fun in the process.

[137beth]

They're not quite high enough for most of the No-save spells
Spells which either don't allow saving throws or function on a save exist at all levels. If they didn't, spellcasters would be considerably less powerful than they are. Summoning? Great. Buffs? Great, no save. Both of these exist from cantrips all the way up to ninth level spells. If the players have high saves, and they are facing an intelligent foe who can realize this, there is no excuse to be throwing spells with "save negates" at them. Saving throw for partial negation? Fine, but I tend to avoid single-target spells which are negated by a saving throw (multi-target spells are a different story entirely). This is not level-dependant, you can do this from level 1 on up.

[GlorinSteampike]

Level 8 wizard can have an Intelligence of 24 easily (18, +2 racial, +2 levels, +2 item). Casting level 4 spells, that's 10+4+7, or 21. 22 if he has Spell Focus. Why do you feel back using level-appropriate DCs that your players have adequate saves to weather?

If this is still a problem, just use no-save spells. Solid Fog? No save. Black Tentacles? No save. Summon Monster? No save. Polymorph into a hydra? No save.

Also, what kind of level 13 superwizard doesn't have all-day buffs? You're letting your players walk all over you, man. Well, like I said they did make dcs at 20-22 easily. It doesn't seem right that every wizard they encounter would have beyond super human intelligence. I already addressed no save spells. Summon monster has been a fun one, but I would have to pre-plan the summons to keep game flow up and rarely do I plan encounters ahead of time due to the sandbox nature of the game. Black Tentacles is also a favorite of mine, but spell diversity between enemies is good. Solid fog they would ignore completely most occassions.


I hate to bring it up, but have you proofread their characters to make sure they actually have saves that high, and are they rolling their saves in front of you? Yeah, I've even had to ban one player's dice because anybody rolling it, would roll 20 1 in 5 times. I've only run into one player I thought was cheating and it wasn't hard to oust him, and not play with him again(Lots of reason to not play with that guy)


You're throwing singular, high-CR enemies at them? That's your issue, not their saving throws.


Your example of the mage council is also highly unrealistic. At 13th level most campaign settings assume the individual is of legendary power and recommend that the DM starts throwing assassins at that person unless he takes steps to conceal himself from his enemies. An entire council of mages would have to be constantly prepared for attack with spells that tip the scales in their favor, and they usually would have the resources for it.

Not only that, they have access to divinations that could tell them weeks in advance about an attempt on their lives and would likely have the intellect to know such spells exist (and the ways to use those spells to forewarn themselves). While this wouldn't be an exact science even at 13th level, they would have enough forewarning to keep their guard up until the next time they cast those divinations and get a new set of information.

Granted the council would seem hellishly paranoid to the players for undertaking such measures, but that is certainly realistic for legendary beings who can warp reality.


Also each character has a weak save, and the are powerful spells that simply don't allow a saving throw (Black Tentacles, for example). The mage council wasn't supposed to be realistic really, and there are some details to that. They had inside help from one of the council members. I don't think 13th level is legendary, maybe noteworthy. And that kind of stuff is dependant on settings. With the inside help of the Council's divination specialist they were able to get what shoulda been a more even fight. And these characters really don't have weak saves. The party gadgeteer went out of his way to get the barbarian a ring of evasion(at great personal cost and some in-game ingenuity) and he'll usually get a buff or two whenever they fear AoE spells, combined with his naturally high dex.

So far my greatest success has been grappling/bullrushing the party halfling(theres always a hafling), and touch attack spells on the melee dudes.

[Flickerdart]

Well, like I said they did make dcs at 20-22 easily.
If their saves are 10+, they should be making them half the time, not "easily".

[GlorinSteampike]

Spells which either don't allow saving throws or function on a save exist at all levels. If they didn't, spellcasters would be considerably less powerful than they are. Summoning? Great. Buffs? Great, no save. Both of these exist from cantrips all the way up to ninth level spells. If the players have high saves, and they are facing an intelligent foe who can realize this, there is no excuse to be throwing spells with "save negates" at them. Saving throw for partial negation? Fine, but I tend to avoid single-target spells which are negated by a saving throw (multi-target spells are a different story entirely). This is not level-dependant, you can do this from level 1 on up.

I guess I'll have to look at how I am applying the spells. The thayan knight dynamic has worked well in the past, but don't make for particularly fun encounters. I just want a way for spells to be fun and effectual, without completing ****ing the party. A lot of save for partial negation stuff I've seen is really situational. I've spent hours in the spell compendium trying to fun ways to make casters interesting to fight without making it a Tenser's Xform/Thayan knight fight.

[GlorinSteampike]

If their saves are 10+, they should be making them half the time, not "easily".

Right, they should. Besides that its hard to justify throwing Mind flayer level DCs at pre-level 10 characters every encounter. I do for one sympathize with the idea that the DM shouldn't always scale every encounter to the party level, because then its hard to feel better about your character if everything is still just as challenging.

Basically, I'm not trying to jew my players out of legitmately high saves, but I'm trying to make spells interesting.

[danzibr]

Polymorph into a hydra? No save.
This one made me laugh :P

[SowZ]

Encounter CR+12 or so is not an unreasonable DC at all. A level 10 party should be fighting CR 12 encounters sometimes. It is expected that by level 10 boss encounters can have DC 20-25 saves.

At level 10, your good save is at a base of +7 with maybe a +1-+3 from the modifier and a +2 or +3 cloak of resistance is easy. Saves of +12/+11/+8 are pretty easy. With class abilities and other items 10+ in all saves is totally doable.

[navar100]

Right, they should. Besides that its hard to justify throwing Mind flayer level DCs at pre-level 10 characters every encounter. I do for one sympathize with the idea that the DM shouldn't always scale every encounter to the party level, because then its hard to feel better about your character if everything is still just as challenging.

Basically, I'm not trying to jew my players out of legitmately high saves, but I'm trying to make spells interesting.

I'll accept at face value you are just casually having a conversation, but please be more careful with the words you use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbVWJD8Xhw0

[rot42]

Basically, I'm not trying to jew my players out of legitmately high saves, but I'm trying to make spells interesting.

You might see more helpful answers if you choose to rephrase this.

[animewatcha]

Throw things that don't rely too much on saves. Web. The black hentacle line. Trip. Disarm. Reach weapons.

What sources are you allowing?

[Spuddles]

Empowered Scorching Ray. True Strike followed by Sudden Maximized Orb of Fire.

[Novawurmson]

I actually can commiserate quite a bit. My last party was a Rogue, a Ranger, and a Summoner who almost all constantly succeed on their saves.

A few things to try:

1. Especially in combat, roll most of your dice in front of your players. Something I was doing was fudging dice rolls in my player's favor. Rolling important checks in front of them creates drama when done correctly, and can help you if you decide to have your players start rolling in front of you.

2. Optimize enemies for defense as well as offense. An enemy who lives another round gets another chance to force a save. Damage reduction, energy resistance, spell resistance, temporary HP...similarly, consider maximizing NPC's HP.

3. (Almost) never throw just one enemy at your players. The action efficiency will make it not even a challenge. For high-level opponents, always make sure they have something to do with their swift action (quickened spells, for example).

4. It's already been brought up, but touch spells are great, as well as things that still at least partially function on a successful save.

5. Make sure you're hitting the right PC with the right saves. A Rogue is probably most likely to fail a Will save, while the caster is more likely to fail a Fortitude save.

6. Soften up saves with conditions like Sickened and Shaken.

7. Use abilities that force rerolls.

8. Check character sheets. Occasionally, you'll find there was a misconception.

One problem I ran into is that my players had absurdly high stat rolls (which I did witness - they all just rolled really, really well - a +40 PF point buy, the lot of them). Increasing the base stats of the creatures solved a lot of the problems.

[Diarmuid]

If all your characters have 10+ to all saves by level 6, are they ridiculously over WBL? That can be another large factor in trying to balance encounters.

A 6th level Paladin with a 16 Charisma is sitting at 8/5/5 before taking into account Wis/Con/Dex for their saves...but then they're a 6th level Paladin and likely not doing a whole lot else. Similarly, a 6th level monk has 5/5/5 before stat mods, but again is a...Monk.

[lsfreak]

6. Soften up saves with conditions like Sickened and Shaken.

Hexblades, paladins of tyranny, and binders with Focalor have no-save auras that reduce adjacent creature's saves by 2 each, and they stack with each other.


3. (Almost) never throw just one enemy at your players. The action efficiency will make it not even a challenge. For high-level opponents, always make sure they have something to do with their swift action (quickened spells, for example).
If it's 1v4 and they're supposed to be a unique (especially non-human) encounter, just give them an extra standard action or a whole extra turn every round. That does a lot to balance out action economy problems when you're putting your party against a single enemy, and in this case also provides an extra chance of them failing a save. Miss chance, DR, and not-sucky levels of SR go a long way with this kind of encounter as well. Also ways of avoiding things entirely: immediate-action teleports like abrupt jaunt or flicker, the Iron Heart parries, wings of cover.

[Randomguy]

I think the issue here is that your enemies are REALLY unoptimized to the point of making what would, in character, be intentionally bad decisions (For example, a wizard that didn't use all day buffs would never live to level 13), so you attempt to make up for it by making them a much higher level than the party. I suggest you take more level appropriate enemies, but optimize them to a level that more approaches the party's level of optimization.

Also, as others have said, try to avoid using just 1 powerful enemy against the party. Weaken the enemy a bit and then give him some minions.

[TuggyNE]

Well, like I said they did make dcs at 20-22 easily. It doesn't seem right that every wizard they encounter would have beyond super human intelligence.

They're Wizards. That's what they do.


I don't think 13th level is legendary, maybe noteworthy. And that kind of stuff is dependant on settings.

For what it's worth, legend lore, in Core, considers any character of 11th level or higher (as well as their notable foes, etc) to be legendary.

[CyberThread]

you need to run them through tuckers kobolds :smallyuk:

[ILetGoOfTheRope]

One of my personal favorite things to do in this situation if its not save or die whomever rolled the lowest on the save fails if its an aoe. I don't do this all the time but it does allow for some more interesting encounters if your players have high saves.

[ericgrau]

If they want to have high saves, I wouldn't hold it against them. There are a lot of no save spells and spell like abilities out there. Or save for half, though I know some have evasion. And while physical attacks seem boring you should at least have some. You can still do some unusual things like grappling, reach, ranged weapons (with tactical modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)) and special terrain (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/wildernessWeatherEnvironment.htm). Then continue to have effects that have saves too, so you're not punishing the players for their style. Basically vary it up. And when the players can't focus entirely on saves anymore their saving throw modifiers will drop a little too.

[buttcyst]

have you tried mixing casters with melee against the party? maybe throw an undead mob at them being bolstered and buffed and controlled by an evil cleric, or you could throw a couple of wizards with their shiny new constructs at them, wizards have a bunch of chain lightning prepared to cast directly on the constructs( with DR, spell immunity...sorta, and can't be critted) to heal them and hurt the party, have one caster be a dispeller and the other one casting as much lightning in the area as possible, and have the casters flying around to boot, and it all can still be done in a sand box. :smallsmile:


fire is good too, but it will limit the golem to only 1 attack, best to do if already in close melee as it won't do anything but slow the construct for (blah) rounds... which you can undo with your next lightning spell, preferably chain for economical reasons (make them roll another save).