Making a zombie hoard

[tim01300]

I am trying to create a horror vibe of my players being trapped in a building with a mob of zombies trying to get in. Night of the living dead style, or more modernly the end of Shawn of the Dead in the pub.

Anyone done this sorta thing? Or have any ideas?
I want the zombies to be weak, like one hit kills but I need my players (lvl 9ish) to be worried and not just ignore them with their high AC.


Also I would like to find a way to do this so i don't bog down combat with having to roll for like 20+ zombies each round. Are there rules for mob combat?

It's an idea I've wanted to do for awhile, just don't even know where to start.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Maybe the mob rules from DMG II?

[Zanos]

Mob rules on page 59 of DMG II were made for this.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe the mob rules from DMG II?

Just beware that, as is expected of a zombie mob, the resultant Grapple-Autodamage combo is nasty. Trying to straight-up melee a swarm of 50 zombies is not a good idea.

[Big Fau]

Also, Destructive Retribution (Libris Mortis) and save-based (or SR-based) abilities (combine the two so that exploding zombies can spread diseases or similar debilitating effects, although you may want to change the rules for diseases to actually be threatening to mid-level players). Most players I know would crap themselves if every zombie in the zombie apocalypse was a walking bomb.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Just beware that, as is expected of a zombie mob, the resultant Grapple-Autodamage combo is nasty. Trying to straight-up melee a swarm of 50 zombies is not a good idea.

They're level 9ish, they should be fine.

My group was fine against mobs at level 6 and they aren't great optimizers. Then again I don't hold other groups up to the same standards as my group they got the luck thing down.

[tim01300]

Wow I guess I gotta look at the DMGII pdf a little closer, this seems so easy now. Thanks guys.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Just beware that, as is expected of a zombie mob, the resultant Grapple-Autodamage combo is nasty. Trying to straight-up melee a swarm of 50 zombies is not a good idea.

Well in a Zombie movie straight up fighting a swarm of 50 zombies isn't a good idea. One important question though is if a Undead Mob should follow the turning rules for swarms where they count as having only half there hit dice.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well in a Zombie movie straight up fighting a swarm of 50 zombies isn't a good idea. One important question though is if a Undead Mob should follow the turning rules for swarms where they count as having only half there hit dice.

They don't. Clerics are still pretty mean to zombie mobs. Every turn will probably destroy a decent number of them giving the mob several negative levels.

[Invader]

Generally zombies don't care about material wealth like a dragon but I figure if they did have a hoard it would be mostly rotting flesh and bones. I would imagine you could find the occasional magic ring from a chewed off finger or a belt pouch with some coins in it that fell off while it was shambling around. :smallamused:

[Humble Master]

Hmm, exploding zombies? Might I also recommend:
Big zombies that throw smaller zombies at people.
Zombies that only stay dead for a minute. After which they get up and keep fighting. To keep them dead you have to use Turn Undead on them.
Zombies that throw their arms and head onto people to attack them. The head and arms will bite and rake the person they land too of course.

[Slipperychicken]

Zombies that only stay dead for a minute. After which they get up and keep fighting. To keep them dead you have to use Turn Undead on them

This sounds cool, but I would say that removing the head or staking the heart (full-round action, as though with coup de grace), using positive energy (damage from a Holy weapon would destroy them), or otherwise burning/dissolving/destroying the body would be sufficient to keep "special" zombies dead. Also, they get up with only 1/4 their max hp.

Mostly because turn attempts are extremely rare, and that would make large numbers of "special" zombies quite unfairly strong.

[Humble Master]

This sounds cool, but I would say that removing the head or staking the heart (full-round action, as though with coup de grace), using positive energy (damage from a Holy weapon would destroy them), or otherwise burning/dissolving/destroying the body would be sufficient to keep "special" zombies dead. Also, they get up with only 1/4 their max hp.

Mostly because turn attempts are extremely rare, and that would make large numbers of "special" zombies quite unfairly strong. Alright, the positive energy damage thing makes a ton of sense and I can see the removing head/staking heart thing too. Let the PC's make a Knowledge check to identify the special zombies (I called them the Immortals) so they are not spending actions to stake every zombie they come across.

[SaintRidley]

All good stuff for making a horde.

You might want to consider making a group of skeletons and taking Lord of the Uttercold. Since the skellies are immune to cold, you can launch uttercold area blast attacks to heal your skeletons and do negative energy and cold damage to their opponents.

As for a hoard of zombies - open vault, shove zombies in.

[Slipperychicken]

They're level 9ish, they should be fine.


Yeah, good point. A 20-speed bruiser should never be a problem, especially at level 9.

[Lanson]

Hmm, exploding zombies? Might I also recommend:
Big zombies that throw smaller zombies at people.
Zombies that only stay dead for a minute. After which they get up and keep fighting. To keep them dead you have to use Turn Undead on them.
Zombies that throw their arms and head onto people to attack them. The head and arms will bite and rake the person they land too of course.

Emphasis mine: So, you want to make a Grave Titan? (MTG) Omg... that would actually be freaking amazing. If someone knows of such a thing in D&D by all means please PM it to me, I'll be running a zombie game this fall.

Anyways, Isnt there a corpsecrafting feat that makes an undead created with it explode in negative energy? Self healing zombie mob?

Edit: Destructive Retribution pg. 26, Libris Mortis, Big Fau already suggested.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Destruction Retribution makes em deal 1d6 + 1d6 per 2 HD negative energy to 10 ft. radius when they are destroyed. Libris Mortus pg. 26.

Edit: its a spread so it rounds corners too.

[Lord Vukodlak]

They don't. Clerics are still pretty mean to zombie mobs. Every turn will probably destroy a decent number of them giving the mob several negative levels.

If they don't follow the swarm rules for turning then there isn't much a cleric can do because it otherwise counts as having 30HD. The Mob has no rules for how turn undead would work

[NeoPhoenix0]

You miss the part where you can affect specific members of a mob.

Edit: Here is a quote

Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back
and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical
hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be fl anked, tripped,
grappled, or bull rushed.
Unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively
small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or
effects that target specifi c numbers of creatures can have
an effect on a mob. Each specifi c creature that is slain,
disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects
that target specifi c creatures bestows two negative levels
on the mob. A mob that gains negative levels equal to its
Hit Dice breaks up as if reduced to 0 hit points. Negative
levels gained in this manner are not the result of negative
energy (and thus cannot be blocked by death ward or
removed by restoration), but never result in permanent
level loss...

I apologize for the bad formatting.

[Mithril Leaf]

Generally zombies don't care about material wealth like a dragon but I figure if they did have a hoard it would be mostly rotting flesh and bones. I would imagine you could find the occasional magic ring from a chewed off finger or a belt pouch with some coins in it that fell off while it was shambling around. :smallamused:

I'd personally recommend Dragon Zombies for this, they have the level capped removed and come with a pre-built hoard.

[Coidzor]

You may find this homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179)revisiting of the Mob template of interest.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You miss the part where you can affect specific members of a mob.

Edit: Here is a quote


I apologize for the bad formatting.

Turn Undead is based of HD not the specific number of creatures. The Mob has 30HD and the most powerful undead a cleric can effect with turning is his turning level+4. So baring some serious shenanigans in turn boosting the cleric would never get to roll the turning damage to begin with. Which is why I suggested the undead swarm rule.

This is a completely different issue then say mass suggestion, the mob rules don't cover HD based spells.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Turn Undead is based of HD not the specific number of creatures. The Mob has 30HD and the most powerful undead a cleric can effect with turning is his turning level+4. So baring some serious shenanigans in turn boosting the cleric would never get to roll the turning damage to begin with. Which is why I suggested the undead swarm rule.

This is a completely different issue then say mass suggestion, the mob rules don't cover HD based spells.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here. Turn undead affects a number of HD but you start with the closest creature which would be a member of the mob or the mob. The mob is too big so you can't affect it so you go with the closest member of the mob. By RAW since it isn't stated exactly how turn undead works you have to consider both and the whole mob is too big. Thats my take on this.

[Lord Vukodlak]

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here. Turn undead affects a number of HD but you start with the closest creature which would be a member of the mob or the mob. The mob is too big so you can't affect it so you go with the closest member of the mob. By RAW since it isn't stated exactly how turn undead works you have to consider both and the whole mob is too big. Thats my take on this.

The mob isn't to big, turn undead has a range of 60ft more then enough to envelop the entire mob. When turning undead the first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can effect. The number of undead your fighting is irrelevant at this point. You need to determine the maximum HD of a single undead you can effect and the mob single entity with 30HD. Which means not including items only a 26th level cleric could potentially affect it.

Now one could simply have it effect the mob based off the HD of its individual members like you suggest. But that make it exceptionally vulnerable turning. A 9th level cleric's turning damage is 2d6+9+cha mod. That's easily sixteen skeletons or half that amount in zombies or ghouls without any ability of the mob to resist.(as its made up of 1 or 2HD undead) Two second level clerics could accomplish the same job with 4d6+2 though they'd at least have a chance to fail the turning check to effect a 1 or 2HD undead. My overall suggestion is to treat the mob as having 15HD for the purposes of the turning check and as individual creatures once you roll the turning damage.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yes by RAW a cleric can destroy a mob of zombies with one or two uses of turn undead, is that so hard to grasp? Now DMs should feel free to rule otherwise to keep their precious mobs intact. This also assumes you have a cleric. I can honestly say I have never adventured with a cleric, which is kinda weird considering someone in my group loves clerics.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes by RAW a cleric can destroy a mob of zombies with one or two uses of turn undead, is that so hard to grasp?

No by RAW he can't even effect it(unless he's around epic level) because "A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm." At 30 HD its well beyond the turning of even many epic level clerics. It doesn't matter that a mob is subject to spells that affect individual creatures because turning doesn't target individual creatures.

A cloudkill for example would not instantly kill a mob of commoners when it rolled over them because the mob has over 3HD. It doesn't matter that its made up of 1HD creatures thats simply not how mobs/swarms work.

If you target a mob with mass suggestion it gets to make will save as a 30HD creature to avoid gaining negative levels form some of its members being disabled in some way. The way you suggest turning should work it resists in the same way it'd resist if it wasn't a mob at all.

[NeoPhoenix0]

so you're saying "You turn the closest turnable undead first," that has a limit of "2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma" HD doesn't qualify as "spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures"

I'm done arguing about this. It's pointless.

[Lord Vukodlak]

so you're saying "You turn the closest turnable undead first," that has a limit of "2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma" HD doesn't qualify as "spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures"

I'm done arguing about this. It's pointless.

No it doesn't because when turning undead

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier).
By RAW the mob has 30HD if the result on the table doesn't equal thirty you can effect the mob as a whole or in part. One might not like it, it might not make logical sense but that's how the rules come out. Swarms and mobs are funny, a cloudkill logically should wipe them out instantly presuming they are comprised of living creatures as each individual would have less than 3 HD, but does not because they're treated as their hit dice as a whole not by the components.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Mob rules are weird, convoluted and (in some cases) imbalanced. Consider other ways to make an undead swarm hard to kill.


1) Up the numbers. Party level +4 for the CR makes for 200+ human zombies.

2) Libris Mortis fast zombies.

[Invader]

I'd personally recommend Dragon Zombies for this, they have the level capped removed and come with a pre-built hoard.

I'm so glad someone finally got my joke :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

I'm so glad someone finally got my joke :smalltongue:

I got it, but backed off because I felt that making fun of the spelling mistake would make me seem petty or pedantic.

[Seharvepernfan]

I got it, but backed off because I felt that making fun of the spelling mistake would make me seem petty or pedantic.

Indeed. (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgt09t5m8O1qdkbnv.jpg)



OP, have you considered ghouls instead of zombies? Zombies are not something that most people one-shot, even at 9th level, due to being tough and somewhat damage-resistant. They also don't really do the whole "mob-clawing-at-stragglers" thing, they just slam stuff with their fists.

Ghouls, on the other hand, are easier to take down, are faster, actually use claws and therefor might grapple, and have a paralysis effect (so, them mobbing somebody is actually going to be pretty fatal). They even have ghoul fever, which is like a zombie-virus.

You could always homebrew a mix of the two, taking the ghouls' fever/claws/lack-of-toughness with the zombies' low speed and mindlessness. You also don't need mob rules, just have the ghouls use aid-another and ready actions to grapple (or hit and induce paralysis).

[Psyren]

Generally zombies don't care about material wealth like a dragon but I figure if they did have a hoard it would be mostly rotting flesh and bones. I would imagine you could find the occasional magic ring from a chewed off finger or a belt pouch with some coins in it that fell off while it was shambling around. :smallamused:

I searched in vain through the first few posts for a comment like this. Kudos :smallbiggrin:

[ArqArturo]

I'd give it a twist: Flashmob zombies.

[Humble Master]

I'd give it a twist: Flashmob zombies. DM: "You see a horde of horrid undead zombies, groaning, shambling and generally acting zombie-like"

Bard: "I start playing my bard song"

DM: "The zombies start dancing 'Thriller'. Make a Will save"

[ArqArturo]

DM: "You see a horde of horrid undead zombies, groaning, shambling and generally acting zombie-like"

Bard: "I start playing my bard song"

DM: "The zombies start dancing 'Thriller'. Make a Will save"

"Also, there's a Dirgesinger in the back, make a Perform check against him to see who controls the dancing zombies".

[Seharvepernfan]

I searched in vain through the first few posts for a comment like this. Kudos :smallbiggrin:

A long time ago, I saw a thread titled "Raptorans, how do they work?" By the time I saw the thread, it was on it's third page, and yet I found no magnets/miracles joke.

[Psyren]

A long time ago, I saw a thread titled "Raptorans, how do they work?" By the time I saw the thread, it was on it's third page, and yet I found no magnets/miracles joke.

And yet, I'm willing to bet you'll find a makeup joke on the first page of any Rouge thread. :smalltongue:

[tim01300]

The thought of using ghouls might make it interesting and allow for the one hits. But I am really digging the mob idea now. I may mix in some ghouls separately to have the threat of paralysis there. I want them to feel threatened here and make it memorable, but I would feel pretty guilty if I made it too difficult since they are fairly new players and this would be defiantly something they haven't seen before.

I'm thinking of having the hoard chase them into a tavern or similar building where they hold up, having to find weak points in the defense and secure them.

[gurgleflep]

The thought of using ghouls might make it interesting and allow for the one hits. But I am really digging the mob idea now. I may mix in some ghouls separately to have the threat of paralysis there. I want them to feel threatened here and make it memorable, but I would feel pretty guilty if I made it too difficult since they are fairly new players and this would be defiantly something they haven't seen before.

I'm thinking of having the hoard chase them into a tavern or similar building where they hold up, having to find weak points in the defense and secure them.

While massive hordes of zombies of zombies and ghouls are cool - and the thriller thing would be hilarious! - I would like to make a suggestion: at the end of every wave you throw in some special form of undead. My personal favorite is the deathbringer - just an example, he's big, powerful, and very BA and could very easily kill some of the players.
I can't remember which monster manual they're in, but it's got two flails, some aura that helps other undead, and a thing for tripping people. Massive amounts of damage though, so if you go through with one I suggest you weaken it enough to be a challenge, but not enough it takes away the fun.

[Malroth]

Lv 9's are at the point where humanoid zombies arent' a threat in any number. A Fighter 9 with power attack and Haste is going to be dropping a minimum of 4 zombies per round, and could potentially kill the entire mass of 50 in a single combat round if they were a combat reflexes, cleave or whirlwind attack build. A lv 9 cleric could destroy almost half the swarm with a single turning attempt or Flamestrike to kill them all at once. A lv 9 Dread Necromancer could control twice that number of zombies just counting his Animate dead zombie pool, and still has a rebuke undead pool and command undead spells to steal more undead from other people.

[Invader]

I got it, but backed off because I felt that making fun of the spelling mistake would make me seem petty or pedantic.

Maybe if you were rude or condescending about the way you would do it, I feel what I said was neither of those but was merely being playful. :smallamused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

One issue with the mob of ghouls the save DC would be 26 vs the paralysis, because the save gets calculated off its entity HD not the components... yeah the mob rules need some polishing.


Lv 9's are at the point where humanoid zombies arent' a threat in any number. A Fighter 9 with power attack and Haste is going to be dropping a minimum of 4 zombies per round, and could potentially kill the entire mass of 50 in a single combat round if they were a combat reflexes, cleave or whirlwind attack build. A lv 9 cleric could destroy almost half the swarm with a single turning attempt or Flamestrike to kill them all at once. A lv 9 Dread Necromancer could control twice that number of zombies just counting his Animate dead zombie pool, and still has a rebuke undead pool and command undead spells to steal more undead from other people.
Have you actually seen the mob rules? Its like a swarm but with larger creatures. A zombie mob would have nearly two hundred hit points, even with the 50% vulnerability to area effects it take three or four flame strikes to take it down. And with the rather wicked grapple abilities a mob has they could pin a 9th level fighter down rather easily.