Star Wars d20- shipping food to an ice planet

[CaladanMoonblad]

Someone help me check my math....

I'm crafting scenarios for an upcoming d20 Star Wars (RCR) game, and one of my planets is an ice world rich in neutronium (a component of durasteel). My mining colony has a population of 6,000 persons, and the colony has to import food. I looked at the USDA website and found that the average American consumes 4.7 pounds of food per day (about 2 kg), and the RCR lists Common Food as 10 credits per kg. I'm working out the numbers, and this is what... 360 metric tons at around 3.6 million credits each month for the food bill?

These 1 kg of food must be vacuum sealed bantha burgers or something right? Did WEG's d6 system have better prices for foodstuffs? What should I be using for bulk prices? Food in the RCR is used as a trade good, but really, it's a commodity, and should be subject to price variance based on standard supply and demand...

[Grinner]

There's just one problem. You're comparing the lifestyle of a modern day Joe to that of a space age miner. They're not going to get burgers. Real meat? No, that's far too expensive for a bunch of backwater laborers. Instead, they're going to get nutrient-dense extruded food product. It tastes bland, but it's filling and cheap.

[Thrudd]

Star Wars doesn't usually worry about details like that, it's an epic space opera. WEG didn't talk about the logistics of supplying remote planets or the cost of foodstuffs in any books that I remember (not that I had every single splatbook). Just fudge the numbers as you want with the RCR as the baseline. Also note that the average American probably consumes a good deal more food than is strictly necessary for nutrition. If we generally ate food more concentrated in nutrition we would need much less, and most Americans eat more than they need anyway. Also, mining colonists in a high technology science fiction environment like Star Wars could be getting engineered nutritious rations that are much more efficient per weight/volume than most naturally occurring foodstuffs, especially if their outfit is being run by a corporation which has profit as the bottom line, or the colony is at all concerned about their finances. Since the volume and weight of cargo presumeably impacts the cost of shipment, they would want to pack as much nutrition into each cargo ship as possible. I'd say a "bantha burger" would probably be a rare luxury on a remote frozen mining colony. I'd say you could get as low as 1.8-2 million credits per month if you assume 1kg of starwars high efficiency rations is equivalent to 2Kg of food in the standard American diet (that is for simplicity's sake, it could probably be even less, but we'll assume they're throwing in the occasional luxury item as well). If you want to vary for supply and demand, obviously some discretionary fudging of numbers on your part. It's possible a colony, really all colonies on worlds requiring regular import of food, would have a long-term contract with a supplier for a set rate. Additionally, I don't think it would be impossible to set up some type of greenhouse with the forcefield technology extant in the Star Wars universe, so that the colony on the frozen world could supply some of their own dietary needs in the form of plants, algae, fungus, or whatever bioengineered superfood may be available. Alternatively, the greenhouse could be integrated into the living spaces, similar energy requirements exist to keep people alive as are needed to grow plants, you wouldn't need an entire separate building. Either way, this would reduce the amount of food needing to be shipped regularly.

[Alejandro]

Can the colony produce its own food, with hydroponics? I mean, if they have the energy infrastructure to run mining equipment in frigid conditions, they can certainly run greenhouses.

[CaladanMoonblad]

These are all good thoughts for the adventure I have in mind (ie, escorting the next food shipment because pirates stole the last 3 of 4 shipments). I was trying to figure out why a 3.4 million credit shipment would only be worth 5k for an escort : /

I think I'll lower the foodstuff cost per kg from 10 credits to 3 credits for base materials- like wheat, bulk seafood, etc., by following the Crafting rules. Still, that's about 1 million credits that my heroes will be escorting...

Yeah, food costs are terrible according to the RCR. That has to be the price for the distributed meal items (after a 30% markup and shipping costs)...

Thank you for your suggestions. The hydroponics idea will be utilized (if only so they can grow their own herbs and spices).

[Sparx MacGyver]

Thought I might come in and help. Hope you don't mind. I did some math, using present day shipping info to help correlate into SW, as well as a SW cargo guide. The guide puts it at 1,750 CR per ton for foodstuffs. Using an equivalent of our 40ft shipping containers, you can place (rounded down) 33 tons per container. That's 57,750 CR per container. If a YT-1300 is used for transport, including the weight of the container, you can get 2.5 of these containers (2 40ft and one 20ft) on the sip with no issue, at least as far as weight is concerned.

I know this kind of thing is generally glossed over for games, especially SW, my players like doing this kind of stuff, and so I've learned to have the numbers for containers and what not, nearby. For instance, if you have bulk items for sale and it's all on pallets, you can get 4 semi-truck loads on a YT-1300. And depending on that load, can be amazingly large or (relatively) low amounts of credits (CR).

Edit: Wanted to add that there are 907 kg in 1 ton. Rounded down, naturally, as most every game does.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Thanks Sparx! Those are numbers I can definitely use. Had no idea on those shipping containers, but I see them all the time on shows like Gold Rush. Like you, I try to be as realistic with my space-adventure as possible, mostly so my players don't complain when I tell them it takes six or eight hours to load their hold full of Columns A through G. I have a problem with visualizing volume with a mass quantifier (like a metric ton) mostly because I was raised with English Imperial Units and no SI units.

Considering how small a YT-1300's cargo access (a ramp) is, it would take a lot longer... I'm hoping my players will be smart, and choose a ship with the ability to attach to the standardized cargo pods. So far, I have about 20 ships interspersed throughout the main storyline that will be purchase-able (via junkyards, public auctions, etc.) that something will strike their fancy.

I haven't started this campaign, but I am writing the linear main storyline in advance (with each area having its own mini-side adventures that I can expand on in game from a two paragraph description). I have to be careful since half of my current group played in the last Star Wars campaign, and they did everything under the sun for easy credits... like being water pirates.

UPDATE/EDIT: I found the info I was looking for; instead of figuring 1% of the value as the shipping rate, WEG's "Tramp Freighters" supplement has a going rate of 5-10 credits per ton, regardless of the value of the cargo. Thus, if my mining colony is shipping in 360 tons per month, the shipping fee is 1800-3600 credits for a drop-point haul. I was just looking for a reason why my heroes wouldn't just try to abscond with the goods and unload it for the full value and retire to some planet for margaritas by level 2.

[Grinner]

UPDATE/EDIT: I found the info I was looking for; instead of figuring 1% of the value as the shipping rate, WEG's "Tramp Freighters" supplement has a going rate of 5-10 credits per ton, regardless of the value of the cargo. Thus, if my mining colony is shipping in 360 tons per month, the shipping fee is 1800-3600 credits for a drop-point haul. I was just looking for a reason why my heroes wouldn't just try to abscond with the goods and unload it for the full value and retire to some planet for margaritas by level 2.

Because stolen goods, assuming they can even be sold, often go for far less the market value.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Thanks Sparx! Those are numbers I can definitely use. Had no idea on those shipping containers, but I see them all the time on shows like Gold Rush. Like you, I try to be as realistic with my space-adventure as possible, mostly so my players don't complain when I tell them it takes six or eight hours to load their hold full of Columns A through G. I have a problem with visualizing volume with a mass quantifier (like a metric ton) mostly because I was raised with English Imperial Units and no SI units.

My players are just a bit too much into realism for my likes, though it does come in handy for certain things like this. While it does mean extra work, I'm the GM, I'm already doing lots. This added bit of stuff won't really hurt and will be a handy reference for later cargo. I've got an excel sheet somewhere on my hard drive that has different shipping types, like wooden pallet and smaller crates, up to tankers and 40 foot containers.


Considering how small a YT-1300's cargo access (a ramp) is, it would take a lot longer... I'm hoping my players will be smart, and choose a ship with the ability to attach to the standardized cargo pods. So far, I have about 20 ships interspersed throughout the main storyline that will be purchase-able (via junkyards, public auctions, etc.) that something will strike their fancy.

If they are like my players, they will probably go for a YT-1300. It's iconic and almost every player I've meet would want one (myself included). I use it for most examples, as it's the easiest to get people to visualize, especially if you say Millennium Falcon. The ramp is small, sure, but it also has cargo elevators for the big stuff. Would still take time, but perhaps not as much depending on the cargo.


UPDATE/EDIT: I found the info I was looking for; instead of figuring 1% of the value as the shipping rate, WEG's "Tramp Freighters" supplement has a going rate of 5-10 credits per ton, regardless of the value of the cargo. Thus, if my mining colony is shipping in 360 tons per month, the shipping fee is 1800-3600 credits for a drop-point haul. I was just looking for a reason why my heroes wouldn't just try to abscond with the goods and unload it for the full value and retire to some planet for margaritas by level 2.

Did not know that, or about that supplement. I'll have to go look for it, seems like it would be handy.

[snoopy13a]

.
I was just looking for a reason why my heroes wouldn't just try to abscond with the goods and unload it for the full value and retire to some planet for margaritas by level 2.

Because grand larceny is frowned upon?

Your heroes do not own the cargo themselves at any time. Theft could lead to the victim agribusiness hiring nefarious bounty hunters to "make an example" out of the thieving PCs. Boba Fett might find hunting down a few grain thieves to be easy money :smalltongue:

Besides the problem of retribution, there's also the problem of selling it. All law-abiding people and corporations are going to require some proof of ownership before making such a major purchase. In order to sell the stolen goods, the players will have to (1) forge a deed and (2) slice into the holonet so that the forgery is confirmed if the buyer accesses the holonet to doublecheck.

The players will also need to alter the ID of their ship. A buyer of 100 tons of grain will get suspicious if a quick holonet search tells them that the ship on which the grain is stored had been hired to transport 100 tons of grain to a mining colony. So selling to an ethical buyer will require serious criminal expertise. And if your players are expert forgers and slicers, why are they hauling goods across the galaxy?

There's also the option of selling to an unethical buyer, such as pirates or a criminal cartel. Of course, unethical buyers can simply steal the good from the players instead of purchasing them. Especially when the players will be marked as outlaws upon theft. Jabba would probably try to kill your heroes and steal their grain instead of buying it.

[Seatbelt]

Checking the holonet is not free, also I don't think the holonet works exactly like the Star Wars Internet. So I don't know how much of that is true. But in general those are valid points.

[Alejandro]

Jabba isn't going to kill them and steal their load of grain unless he has some profitable reason for doing so. It would be much better to simply pay them a fraction of what it's worth, then resell it to desperate starving people at a premium, with no murders to clean up after.

[LibraryOgre]

As others pointed out, they don't own it... they're just the bonded couriers. Meaning they don't have a cargo hold full of food to sell as they like, but a contract to deliver a certain amount of cargo to a certain point.

My GM had it so, if they the contract WASN'T fulfilled, the ship owner was on the hook for half the value of the cargo (which was a BFD when we were flying weapons to Coruscant)... but our payoff was a quarter of that value. He MASSIVELY overpayed us.

Far better is to look at how much it would cost someone to transport this in ideal situation... 1d6*2 days of transit time (assuming a standard HDM of *2, which most stock cargo ships have;note that I'm going off Saga numbers, which might be different), paying for a crew for that long, plus fuel and labor on both ends. These are some fixed costs whether you ship it yourself or hire someone to do it. Now, you throw in some other costs that the cargo hauler is going to want covered, or at least accounted for... pirates (i.e. danger pay, damage above wear and tear, replacements for missiles, etc) being a big cost, but you've also got docking fees, customs inspections, and reasonable bribes. While they can't expect to present an itemized bill for this, what they want will need to be taken account of in the contract, or no one will be willing to take any cargo for you.

So, your cargo hauler will probably be seeing more like 100 credits per ton, or about 10000 for the flight... out of which he has to make repairs, pay his crew, and live until he finds the next job.

[CaladanMoonblad]

@Snoopy- your thoughts are valued and similar with what I had in mind. In my Campaign Regulations write-up there is a section on acting like modern people growing up in a law abiding society with stiff penalties for acting like a typical murder-hobo from DnD.

@Seatbelt- the holonet is certainly more regulated after Palpatine's rise to power, and most of its bandwidth is military only. However, the Empire does offer Holo-Vision as its propaganda news outlet, and I've always played/run games where a 100 credit fee gave minimal access to email and BOSS records (license plate look up) for the week. It doesn't help that WEG material and Wizards material on the Holonet are at odds.

@Alejandro- I agree, Jabba doesn't invite violence- it just takes one desperate moisture farmer to get a lucky shot off... I've always run black market goods as 20-30% of market value for quick bulk sales provided the Gather Information and Diplomacy were high enough (30+).

@Mark Hall- I am writing a section in the first cargo scenario about bonded couriers so my heroes get the idea based on your comments. Thanks!

[Alejandro]

Well, Jabba isn't talking to the desperate moisture farmers himself. That's what goons are for. :)

[Beleriphon]

Well, Jabba isn't talking to the desperate moisture farmers himself. That's what goons are for. :)

More than that, that's what low-level-five-steps-away-from-the-guy-that-actually-saw-Jabba-from-100-metres-away-once goons are for.

[AstralFire]

@Snoopy- your thoughts are valued and similar with what I had in mind. In my Campaign Regulations write-up there is a section on acting like modern people growing up in a law abiding society with stiff penalties for acting like a typical murder-hobo from DnD.

It worries me slightly that your group requires this admonishment. :smalleek:

[CaladanMoonblad]

It worries me slightly that your group requires this admonishment. :smalleek:

We've been playing DnD for the last two years, and have had enough people move away and inducted new players into the group that for all but one, this will be their first Star Wars campaign.

There is definitely a different perspective on Possession of Goods in a DnD world without an overarching bureaucracy enforcing the law which allows a Law-Chaos alignment axis to exist. The problem with Star Wars (in d20), is that the only penalty for acting evil is a dark side point, which has no repercussion to non-force sensitives. Without organized religion (like in DnD), there has to be a replacement to check the moral codes of any character in a sci-fi universe.

Ever since Gary Alan Fine's seminal sociological work on role playing games (Shared Fantasy (http://www.amazon.com/Shared-Fantasy-Playing-Social-Worlds/dp/0226249441), 1981), the divorce of ethics from a fantasy game and real life is an all too common occurrence. Some people play simply to vent their real life frustrations and inclinations to violence which must be checked in real life; most of my group are in our late twenties and early thirties with higher education backgrounds.

Anyway, I typically run frugal campaigns- get rich quick schemes are almost always a response to this GMing style.

[snoopy13a]

The problem with Star Wars (in d20), is that the only penalty for acting evil is a dark side point, which has no repercussion to non-force sensitives. Without organized religion (like in DnD), there has to be a replacement to check the moral codes of any character in a sci-fi universe.



Idiotic evil acts are easy enough to check. Just inform the players that the authorities do not attempt to arrest player characters using "level-appropriate encounters." This is entirely realistic. In the midst of a bank robbery, the police do not think, "Hmm, these guys are only level 1, so let's not notify the SWAT team."

The problem is if the players are smart about evil activity. If the players are clever, then they might be able to "get away with it," at least in the short-term. There are two responses to this. The first is to punish them in-game: a rival gang appears out of nowhere and attacks them with overwhelming force, a contact sells them out to the authorities, etc. Players, understandably, might find this to be unfair. The second option is to set OOC guidelines beforehand. Simply say that you're not comfortable GMing The Sopranos in Space.

[Alejandro]

We've been playing DnD for the last two years, and have had enough people move away and inducted new players into the group that for all but one, this will be their first Star Wars campaign.

There is definitely a different perspective on Possession of Goods in a DnD world without an overarching bureaucracy enforcing the law which allows a Law-Chaos alignment axis to exist. The problem with Star Wars (in d20), is that the only penalty for acting evil is a dark side point, which has no repercussion to non-force sensitives. Without organized religion (like in DnD), there has to be a replacement to check the moral codes of any character in a sci-fi universe.

Um, there can be hundreds of penalties for acting evil. It's the responsibility of the GM to use them. I had one of my players do something blatantly horrible to a representative of a Squibb king, and there were immediate and negative results, whether or not there were any dark side points.

Similarly, there is plenty of organized religion in Star Wars, the GM just has to do the work. I created a world of intelligent beetles whose government is a fairly benevolent theocracy of their sun god. :)

(Except for the time they had a civil war and the PCs helped mount blaster cannons on the backs of truck sized war beetles.)

[Beleriphon]

There is definitely a different perspective on Possession of Goods in a DnD world without an overarching bureaucracy enforcing the law which allows a Law-Chaos alignment axis to exist. The problem with Star Wars (in d20), is that the only penalty for acting evil is a dark side point, which has no repercussion to non-force sensitives. Without organized religion (like in DnD), there has to be a replacement to check the moral codes of any character in a sci-fi universe.


You do realize that in the Star Wars d20 games accumulating enough dark side score/points turns your character into an NPC right? That's in the rules, whether the character is Force sensitive or not. So I'd say that right there is a pretty strong incentive to not accumulate dark side points/score, especially since the value is generally linked to Wisdom score and most non-Force using types tend to have mediocre or lower values.

[LibraryOgre]

There is definitely a different perspective on Possession of Goods in a DnD world without an overarching bureaucracy enforcing the law which allows a Law-Chaos alignment axis to exist. The problem with Star Wars (in d20), is that the only penalty for acting evil is a dark side point, which has no repercussion to non-force sensitives. Without organized religion (like in DnD), there has to be a replacement to check the moral codes of any character in a sci-fi universe.

I disagree. It may be the case with your group, but I've a number of friends who play a moral game, no matter the system or its penalties (or lack thereof) for being moral. Shadowrun? I tend towards a moral character, and that game has pretty much no penalties for evil.

If you're playing immorally just because the system doesn't enforce a code of morality, that says far more about you than role-players in general.

[CaladanMoonblad]

You do realize that in the Star Wars d20 games accumulating enough dark side score/points turns your character into an NPC right? That's in the rules, whether the character is Force sensitive or not. So I'd say that right there is a pretty strong incentive to not accumulate dark side points/score, especially since the value is generally linked to Wisdom score and most non-Force using types tend to have mediocre or lower values.

You are mistaken. Please see page 183 of the RCR (the system this thread title is under). You will notice that the "heroic campaign" is under the heading "A Final Option" for what you propose.
As GM, you may decide that you want to run a completely heroic campaign. In this case, you can rule that once a Force-using character becomes dark, that character becomes a GM character and is no longer under the control of the player. Consider this option carefully before utilizing it, because it takes away player freedom. However, if the GM puts this rule in place at the start of the campaign, then it just becomes part of the rules and everone is aware of the consequences of walking down the dark path.

So... Not what you claim. This is an option only. The very first sourcebook for d20 Star Wars was The Darkside Sourcebook. You know, for players and GMs alike.

My original statement is that an overarching body (like the Empire, BoSS, etc.) is required in a sci-fi environment to enforce real ethics in a game, since most sci-fi characters do not belong to a religion. Please see Han Solo's statement to Luke in A New Hope. In fact, the only religion in the movies, is the Force... which is more like a good luck saying than anything.

[Alejandro]

In the movies, yes, there is basically no religious activity, other than Force concepts, shown. But, there are many, many religions in SW. Even the Wookiees are very religious.

[Seatbelt]

Just as an asside, I have a Lawful Good friend who loves to RP evil characters exactly because he's good in real life. Playing evil doesn't make you immature or indicate poor RP skills.

[IdleMuse]

Back on the OT, just as a bit of explanation of how the miners could even afford expensive imported food, do remember that the mining base is probably owned by some sort of mining corp or consortium, and they will probably heavily subsidise imports, so that the food is close to the galactic standard rate.

[snoopy13a]

Back on the OT, just as a bit of explanation of how the miners could even afford expensive imported food, do remember that the mining base is probably owned by some sort of mining corp or consortium, and they will probably heavily subsidise imports, so that the food is close to the galactic standard rate.

Yeah, I'm sure the food would be good. The company wants to keep morale high as people aren't inclined to take jobs as miners on remote ice moos. Good food certainly helps in that department. Our contemporary equivalents--e.g., off-shore oil rig workers--are paid a premium over people who work conventional jobs.

Plus, importing costs aren't that expensive. A YT-1300 can carry 100 metric tons so the 5,000 credits or so you pay the crew isn't that much of a premium.

[Mutazoia]

Back on the OT, just as a bit of explanation of how the miners could even afford expensive imported food, do remember that the mining base is probably owned by some sort of mining corp or consortium, and they will probably heavily subsidise imports, so that the food is close to the galactic standard rate.

Try reading about the coal mining towns of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The corporations spent as little as they could on the miners and their living conditions, and often paid them in company "tokens" that were only good at the company store. Would things be much better in the SW universe? Probably not much, depending on who the bosses were.

If the mining outpost is owned by a major corporation, then mining droids would be doing all the dirty work and there would only be a small biological presence...most of the facility would be automated to cut down on cost and boost the profit margin. Shipments would be by company bulk freighter... the freighter drops off supplies and loads up with the mined resource and heads back...no wasted/empty space there or back. All shopping on site/planet is done through the company store but they'll have a pretty decent selection of goods. Not the best stuff but average quality with a few luxury items available.

If the mining outpost is owned by a small company or in independent operation then there would be less money for droid labor as the companies market share would be much smaller. Pay for biological miners would be as low as the company could possibly get away with to keep overhead down and maximize profit. They would have to at least partially rely on independent shippers to bring in supplies and haul off the goods. The company store would stock the bare necessities and no luxury items as the cost of importing anything not absolutely necessary for employee survival would usually make such items horribly expensive.

A larger independent operation like Cloud City could probably afford to operate much like a corporate site...they would most likely be owned and run by a crime syndicate and could afford to import better quality good for the workers. They would essentially be a small colony instead of a simple mining outpost.

[LibraryOgre]

In situations like Hoth mining, I imagine most food is going to be cafeteria style, with company store chits for luxuries BUT consider how interstellar communications and banking will affect things... it will be possible to bank pay, or send it home, while reducing luxury intakes. Part of what made closed company towns an option was communications control, which is less feasible/more suspicious in SW... not impossible, by any means, but you have to be willing to enslave, which noteveryone is.

[Thrudd]

In situations like Hoth mining, I imagine most food is going to be cafeteria style, with company store chits for luxuries BUT consider how interstellar communications and banking will affect things... it will be possible to bank pay, or send it home, while reducing luxury intakes. Part of what made closed company towns an option was communications control, which is less feasible/more suspicious in SW... not impossible, by any means, but you have to be willing to enslave, which noteveryone is.

See the old Sean Connery movie "Outland" (based on the template of High Noon). Mining colony on Io, where everyone is kept going with a steady diet of stimulant drugs that eventually result in hallucinations and psychosis. Replace spacesuit decompression with people running out into the deathly Hoth cold without their protective gear. Could be a fun side plot for a campaign, figuring out why people are starting to go mad and kill eachother and themselves on the colony...the company keeps them going on limited rations with stimulants in the rations that let them tolerate the cold better and work more hours on not enough calories...