What to nip on a apostle of peace?

[CyberThread]

As a DM, what can I nip on a apostle of peace, to make it friendly for a player that wants to take it, without screwing over her team mates.

[flare'90]

Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. Also, grant them access to the cleric list, not only their own.

[ArcturusV]

That'd be the easy answer. Usually the complaints is about the Vows.

The other answer would be to Personalize the Vows. Make it so they don't have the Paladin Weakness of "If I hang out with people like this...". That's their major problem, them, along with the Paladin, are basically the only classes contingent on the behavior of people that the character themselves cannot actually control.

Which leads to the ultimatums of "I'm walking unless...".

Just nip that in the bud. Say "You're fine as long as YOU personally hold this ideal. You're not responsible for other people."

[flare'90]

^ These are also good advises.

I'm still not sure how poverty matters for an Apostle of Peace.

[Tokiko Mima]

As a DM, what can I nip on a apostle of peace, to make it friendly for a player that wants to take it, without screwing over her team mates.

Well, firstly, in my opinion, it's not a good idea to have any of the various vows available as prerequisites for a Prestige Class. They should be options for a character to spur roleplay in a particular direction that would not normally be beneficial. They shouldn't cost feats beyond the Sacred Vow prerequisite, and losing them via actions means you lose the benefits, and need to immediately repent OR get used to not having them.

Apostle of Peace has three vows that are required, so that's my primary objection.


Vow of Peace - This one is not a big deal to group dynamics, because it has no effect on how others play, it just affects you.
Vow of Nonviolence - This one is the primary offender. It has a stacking penalty to your allies when they break *your* vow. The easiest fix is to just nix that entire part. If you wanted to keep it, I would have the vow apply the penalty to just the Vow taker (maybe as a caster level penalty?), and have the potential of a slight party bonus (maybe + character level / 4 moral bonus to attack) if they have all defeated every foe nonviolently during the same day.
Vow of Poverty - My opinion: Nix this requirement. The Apostle can take this vow or not. VoP has rather severe consequences and in nearly all cases makes a character worse. As an option, you could require any one of the other vows (i.e. Abstinence, Chastity, Obedience, Purity or Poverty) and let the Apostle choose his restriction, rather than forcing it.


Now, as far as the class goes, keep in mind that this is a fast advancing full-caster divine class with no class features past level four (and no good ones past level two,) lots of class skills but not skill points, and terrible HP + BAB advancement. Thus there is a huge incentive to dip level one or two, then run screaming into another PrC that has decent class features, skill points, HP and advances divine casting.

You may want to include an awesome 10th level capstone at the very least (e.g. the Apostle can cast Miracle at will, but takes Wisdom burn damage equal to 2 + the number of sentient creatures he seen killed in his lifetime + the number of times he has used this ability in the last day), and up the amount of skill points to 6 + Int. And sprinkle in bonus exalted feats, maybe.

And just for flavor, you should put a line in about 'Apostle of Peace spells require that the caster not have a weapon (except for a walking stick/staff) in hand, or visible on their person while they are being cast.' Would be kinda crazy to have the Apostle armed to the gills while preaching nonviolence.

[INoKnowNames]

I'd like to offer a slightly different viewpoint to some of the answers you have already received. Though I agree that Vow of Poverty can go burn in a fire and removing it makes an apostle of peace significantly more viable, even if it's still more of a flavor class than an optimal class.

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On Vow of Non Violence, a lot of people seem to read it wrong. Vow of Non-Violence doesn't actually mean "Thou Shalt Not Let Allies Kill". It means "Thou Shalt Not Kill, and Thou Should Prevent Allies from Murder". And while I can certainly understand being annoyed that someone else's personal beliefs affect you despite you not sharing those beliefs, there's quite a bit of levity here. A Vow of Nonviolence character is actually allowed to use Non-Lethal Damage to still actively fight, for example. (... I wonder what a Non-Violent Uber Charger would be like. :smallbiggrin:)

Additionally, allies only take penalties if they kill foes that have been rendered helpless/defenseless, ie foes you've already beaten and gotten exp for, and could easily haul to jail, loot, or knock out. There is absolutely nothing in the vow saying that if Joe-the-Warblade Insta-Crit-Wtfpwns a Goblin Bandit, he takes a penalty for it. Only if said Goblin survives, and Joe decides to finish him off despite having already won and the Goblin not being an issue anymore, that's when Joe's in trouble with the feat.

It's actually a lot more usable than one might suspect, though if that's not levity enough, let the murderous players get a Will Save vs, say, 10+1/2 Character Level + Wisdom or Charisma Mod of the Apostle before they take a penalty. Murder's a hard thing to do, but some people can do it and not feel bad at all, even when the innocent are around or in mind.

To make the feat a bit better in exchange, let it provide a bonus Exalted Feat Slot. To be fair, the same could probably be said for Sacred Vow, since otherwise you'd have to wait to be under the effects of the Vow you're Sacredly Vowing to uphold. Also, let the bonus stack with Spell Focus; that's hardly an issue.

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As for the Vow of Peace, it is a little bit more strict, but still workable. "You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them--if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner." is the most damning line of the feat: remove that, and it's simply a self-imposed rule against wounding anything but undead or constructs (though I've always wondered why Oozes and Evil Outsiders aren't also on that list). (Again, a Peaceful Ubercharger seems like it still works except against certain enemies. :smalltongue:)

To make it a little smexier a feat, let the Exalted Bonus stack with Armor, or even grow based on Character Level. Let the Calming Aura (which RAW affects allies as well) be activated on command as a free action, rather than always on (and technically always depressing). The issue of "destroys loot when attacked" is mostly a Sunder problem anyway, which should be fixed in it's own right. ... And maybe grant an additional Exalted Feat, since this chain is one of the most intensive of them in that particular book.

Hm... Sacred Vow, Vow of Non Violence, and Vow of Peace each offering a bonus Exalted Feat would make all of them a bit easier to take... and if you need nothing else, you could take Gift of Discernment with that last slot.

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With that note out of the way, the class itself.

Given the (even with the above changes) restrictive requirements (because, let's face it, in a game where the average goal is to kill everything different from you and loot the bodies, this class and related are asking for a lot), I see no reason why this class shouldn't be a rapid-casting Cleric Class a bit like the Sublime Chord. Yes, the Cleric Spell List can be deadly, but there are ways to make Spells do Non-Lethal Damage, so one could still be summoning storms and holy lightning but still promote a non-murderous life style.

I'd also agree to spruce up the class with a good capstone and maybe 1-2 other bonus features, as well as 6 Skill Points. At Will Miracle with limits to how many times one can get away with it per day (though something less than "number of deaths seen, since in D&D that gets rather high) sounds pretty cool as well, Tokiko.

I'd consider giving a few of the Diplomacy enhancing features, like removing the penalty for Diplomacy as a Standard Action, or being able to use it on other beings as well, since it requires a bit of Diplomacy to get into and you're getting +6 as well through feats.