Tome of battle -Maneuver, Stance questions

[relytdan]

lets use - Warblade
Maneuvers: begin with knowledge of three martial maneuvers
we choose Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw for this purpose. each below is the crux of the question: First is the Tiger Claw - the discipline, or the maneuver?
or is the ability ie. "Blood in the Water" - while at the same time this lists - Stance thereby I presume it is a stance. Next are the abilities with the tag - Strike - is this a Stance or something different ? and where it calls for multiple maneuvers for the Prerequisite, does this mean - multiple " Stances " or just to have access to these - Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw?


lvl 1 Blood in the Water: Stance
Gain +1 bonus on attacks and damage for each critical hit
Prerequisite: One Tiger Claw maneuver

lvl 5 Pouncing Charge: Strike
When you charge, make multiple attacks.
Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw maneuvers

[Snowbluff]

Uh...

Stances are maneuvers, but you can only learn them with stance slots. They count for prerequisites for maneuvers. Strikes are another kind of maneuver, as are boosts and counters. All of these count as maneuvers for prerequisites.

Blood in the Water is a Stance.

Pouncing Charge is a Strike.

[Deophaun]

Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw are not maneuvers. They're disciplines, which are the equivalent of spell schools for maneuvers. When it says you start with 3 maneuvers known, you could take one maneuver from each of those disciplines, or you could take two from one and one from another, or, if you really like Tiger Claw, you could take all three from that discipline.

Of maneuvers, there are three types. There are strikes, there are boosts, and then there is a special type called a stance, which consume a different character resource and cannot be retrained. However, for purpose of prerequisites, these three kinds of maneuvers are equal (So if you know Blood in the Water (Stance) and Sudden Leap (Boost), you have enough maneuvers to qualify for Wolf Climbs the Mountain (Strike) or Prey on the Weak (Stance) )

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I'm actually a little fuzzy on whether stances from a school fulfill maneuver pre-reqs. I'd have to look at the book again -- which I don't have on this laptop. I think they do.

You choose stances as you level up. If you notice, the Warblade and other ToB classes have a "stances known" section on their table. Those are the stances you can know. Everything beyond stances are part of maneuvers known. You can't learn a new stance with a new maneuver known or vice versa.

[relytdan]

ok so If I understand properly - using Tiger claw ( school / discipline )
I can take 3 maneuvers from this if I choose-
Death from Above: Strike, Blood in the Water: Stance, that then Qualify for
Pouncing Charge: Strike

Death from Above: Strike
Prerequisite: One Tiger Claw maneuver

Blood in the Water: Stance
Prerequisite: One Tiger Claw maneuver

Pouncing Charge: Strike
Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw maneuvers

the only issue I see at the moment is all of the " Boosts, Stances, Strikes" ect.. seem to have Prerequisite: One "X" maneuver - so how does 1 qualify for it if it requires one?

[Humble Master]

The term maneuvers covers strikes, counters, and boosts. Stances are a separate category. So at first level you can learn 3 strikes, counters and/or boosts and one stance. Stances do count towards the number of maneuvers you need to learn a higher level maneuver.

edit: quote from Tome of Battle page 37:
"Martial powers fall into two broad categories: stances and maneuvers (which include boosts, counters, and strikes)."

double edit: You qualify for maneuvers and stances that require you to know maneuvers by starting with the ones that do not require you to know maneuvers. For example, Wolf Fang Strike is a level 1 maneuver and has no other prerequisites.

[relytdan]

right - ok
as Stance is Different it does not count ..

To qualify for Pouncing Charge at the earliest is -Warblade level 5
WOLF FANG STRIKE (Strike) warblade 1
CLAW AT THE MOON (Strike) warblade 2

warblade lvl 5 Pouncing Charge: Strike
When you charge, make multiple attacks.
Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw maneuvers

would the Martial Study as fighter bonus feat count the level requirement or would it have to go 5 levels warblade in this example?

[huttj509]

right - ok
as Stance is Different it does not count ..

To qualify for Pouncing Charge at the earliest is -Warblade level 5
WOLF FANG STRIKE (Strike) warblade 1
CLAW AT THE MOON (Strike) warblade 2

warblade lvl 5 Pouncing Charge: Strike
When you charge, make multiple attacks.
Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw maneuvers

would the Martial Study as fighter bonus feat count the level requirement or would it have to go 5 levels warblade in this example?

Martial study to learn a tiger claw maneuver would count towards the number of tiger claw maneuvers known.

[Chronos]

In general, most first-level maneuvers lack prerequisites, and most high-level maneuvers have them, though there are exceptions to both. Also, there's an explicit rule in Tome of Battle that you only need to meet the prerequisite when you learn a maneuver, and that you don't lose them if you somehow later lose the prerequisites (this is different from most D&D abilities, which you either lose when you lose the prereqs, or which are silent on the subject).

[Humble Master]

right - ok
as Stance is Different it does not count ..

would the Martial Study as fighter bonus feat count the level requirement or would it have to go 5 levels warblade in this example? Stances do count towards the number of maneuvers you must know to learn a new maneuver or stance.

Quote from Tome of Battle page 44: "Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver."

Your initiator level is equal to halve your non martial adept levels + your martial adept levels. For example a level 10 fighter could learn 3rd level maneuvers (if he had the other prerequisites of course).

[relytdan]

You can learn any maneuver you like by choosing the Martial Study feat, regardless of class.
However, you must still meet the prerequisite of the maneuver.
-
so All I would need to do if I want tiger claw, is take Martial Study feat possibly 3 times and Martial Stance 1 time, to learn either - WOLF FANG STRIKE or CLAW AT THE MOON, in order to meet the requirement for -Blood in the Water: Stance or have 2 to qualify for - Pouncing Charge: Strike