Min/max DPS w/ TWF

[Corinath]

All books are open and available.
The only thing disabled are skill tricks.

I'm currently building a rogue that, while not specializing in TWF, might take temporary traits that grant 1-2 feats of the TWF tree. (Via a wand of heroics (SpC 113) and/or Gloves of the Balanced Hand (grants a TWF feat) (MIC 105))

The question I have is this.

Is there a "break point" where it no longer becomes efficient to take the BAB hit from TWF?

I.E. When would: "Higher BAB > More attacks"?

[Piggy Knowles]

Short answer? It depends on who you're fighting and what bonuses to damage you're getting per attack.

If you're really interested in anything resembling DPS, I highly recommend you put together a spreadsheet that calculates average damage versus a variety of ACs, etc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I personally like to stop with ITWF, 6-7 attacks per round are enough IMO and the extra attack that GTWF will most likely miss because of the -10 (unless youbarevusingntouch attacks; but that is another matter)

[Corinath]

I've been trying to figure out how I'd create a spreadsheet to calculate this.

There's two variables here.

The first one is that I'm taking Cosmopolitan (Forgotten Realms, p34) and spec'ing into Iajutsu Focus and pairing a wide variety of ways of Flat-footing (not Denying Dex to AC), so when it's paired I'm nearly doubling my damage if I hit.

The second one is that part of my fighting style may be that I hold a wand in my offhand, which probably interferes with Gnomish Quick Razor (though I'm not certain a book ever says I can't hold an item and use the razor). If I do this, the wand would likely be Distract Assailant (to Flat-foot), or would be marbles, or the like.

So it's more like...do I take an additional chance to flat-foot an opponent, and thus nearly double by d6s? Or do I take the extra attacks? (Till I get Gloves of Casting, where I could likely do both)

But where would I start to work on a spreadsheet?

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is DM dependant; but ask if you can make a (spiked) gauntlet with a wand chamber (justify it fluff wise as the wand bring inserted in a groove that runs along your forearm). It shouldn't interfere with your quick-razor.

[Wings of Peace]

Have you considered whether or not building around Iaijutsu is going to be as efficient for your damage output as building around sneak attack? It sounds like you're still in the planning phase of things so I figured I would toss the question out there now.

[Piggy Knowles]

But where would I start to work on a spreadsheet?

(% chance you miss * damage you deal on a miss) + (% chance you hit * damage you deal on a hit) + (% chance of a successful crit * additional damage you deal on a crit) = average damage with each attack

What you can do is set up the spreadsheet to have the figures for multiple attack routines - two-handed, with or without sneak attack, resistance, etc. Then just plug in the AC or any other variables you want it to look at, and have it set to autocalculate average damage based on that figure.

So, for example, if I deal an average of 50 points of damage on a weapon swing, 1-10 misses (45%), 11-20 hits (55%), and I've got a 5.5% chance of a successful crit, which deals an additional weapon's worth of damage, I might look at:

(.45*0)+(.55*50)+(.055*50)=30.25 average damage

This is a super simplistic way of looking at things, but once you start there, you can mess around to take into account all different variables. Spreadsheets with linked cells make your life way easier in this regard.

That said, another thing that is interesting to look at is spike damage. This is especially useful for particularly high damage builds. The reason for that is that D&D 3.5 doesn't care if you're at 1 HP or 1,000 HP - you're still just as deadly. So, some things that deal a higher average damage at the cost of lower spike damage can actually be less useful overall. After all, if you're up against an enemy that has 95 HP and a really deadly counterattack, a build that has a 50% chance of dealing 100 points of damage is more useful to you than a build that has a 100% chance of dealing 50 points of damage - even though both have identical average damage, the former has a 50% chance if winning the encounter before dying, while the latter does not. This becomes more of an issue at higher levels, though, and it doesn't apply for every situation (for example, if your average damage is enough, a consistent average is way more useful to you than something built around spike damage).

[Phaederkiel]

I just want to underline piggys last sentence: you are fighting mooks often enough, and I have always found that a constant stream of damage is much better than overkilling with spike damage.

If there are 10 Mooks with 20 hp and you normally deal 15, it is better to have a 50 % chance at 30 than a 10 % chance of 1000.

real life example: An Axe (1d12, x3) against a falchion (2d4 18-20 x2).
The axe averages higher, but this is only when you consider the high damage coming from the x3 crit modifier. The Falchion is a much more consistent critting weapon, and thus probably a better choice.

Even the Greatsword, often touted as the best 2-handed weapon, is only (2d6 19-20x2) and loses against a falchion as soon as you have a strength score to be enhanced by crits. Keen makes the falchions advantage even greater.




The other thing I want to ad is: why not do both sneak and iaijutsu? Those are far from mutual exclusive.

With non ranged weapons you will always have a big problem to get your big attack routine going. This is something which could tip the scales in favor of being able to deal ONE big strike after a charge.

[Piggy Knowles]

I just want to underline piggys last sentence: you are fighting mooks often enough, and I have always found that a constant stream of damage is much better than overkilling with spike damage.

Agreed. It's handy to have both as an option, though - there are many circumstances where it is better to have a chance of spike damage that will finish an encounter in a single round, but you should have a consistent and reliable source of damage for the majority of the time. That's why spreadsheets are handy - you can have them displayed with average damage for a number of different fighting styles against a variety of defenses, so you can get an idea of what will work in each scenario.

[Sith_Happens]

Don't forget Stormguard Warrior (ToB).

[ArcturusV]

Have you considered whether or not building around Iaijutsu is going to be as efficient for your damage output as building around sneak attack? It sounds like you're still in the planning phase of things so I figured I would toss the question out there now.

Why choose? I prefer to do both myself. Though Iajutsu is locked to Katana only if I recall, so you couldn't Two Weapon Fight with it unless your DM was being nice. Maybe allowed you to Wakizashi with it. But you could easily take a dip into something like Human Paragon 1 to make Iajutsu Focus always a class skill for you, Rogue it up. Anything that qualifies for Iajutsu also qualifies for Sneak Attacks, so that first combat round, and/or surprise round is going to be pretty deadly for your target. Maybe consider a late entry (Due to not havign full BAB) into Iajutsu Master so you can get things like +Cha Mod damage on each Iajutsu dice.

[Corinath]

Iatjutsu Focus and Sneak Attack really seemed to be complimentary towards each other than not. In order to trigger IF, the subject is inherently susceptible to SA. With a Gnomish Quick Razor, the attack is fulfilled as per IF's rules. All it does is (nearly) double the amount of d6s I'm rolling.

Unless I'm missing something?

I'm dipping Cloistered Cleric and getting Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Time Domain (with enough CHA to convert Turn Undead into an extra 2/day uses of Travel Devotion). And I have +16 Misc bonus to Hide, and +10 misc bonus to Move Silently. With HiPS. And (eventually) Dark Stalker.

So, in a situation where I anticipate a fight, I'll probably be in the right spot with no problem. (At level 1 (ECL 2), my Hide skill is at 24). So I can get a full round action in. If I need more than that, I can tap Travel Devotion. My land speed is 40ft/round.

I'll always take spike damage to kill things. Dead enemy DPS is no DPS.

I think the really basic follow up question I have is...Where do I go to make a spreadsheet like this? Google?

Edit: ArcturusV pretty much ninja'd what I just said.

Except IF isn't locked to any weapon. It only requires the ability to draw (as a free action) and strike. Could do this with Least Return Augment Crystals even.

[Corinath]

I'll probably post the build I have tomorrow. It's...uh...interesting I think. And I'd love to see what it's flaws are.

Also, our campaign starts tomorrow evening (PST), so I probably ought to have all this figured out by then.

[ericgrau]

For AC it averages 15 at CR 1 and 36 at CR 20. So about 15 + CR. CR for a difficult fight (EL = party level + 2) ranges from level-2 (for multiple foes) to level+2 (for a lone foe). So figure AC is about your level + (13 to 17). As a squishy rogue with more options than only TWF, you might not want to engage lone foes in melee b/c you could get insta-squashed. Such fights aren't as common either. So you may lean more towards level+13 AC in your estimates.

A good option against lone foes is wand of [empowered] ray of enfeeblement. Especially with your high dex.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stormguard melee build is probably the best.

I do wonder how someone (optimized for) sneak attacking and dual wielding hand/light crossbows both with the Splitting enhancement would fare. You'd also want a ring of blinking, of course.

(Get gloves of the master strategist from Ghostwalk, one for each hand. They're gloves of storing except less than half the price and also have true strike 1/day. There was even a 3.5 update and price went unchanged, so it's legit. That way you can free action store and retrieve them to have two hands to keep reloading the crossbows.)

You'd want to be a Halfling for the racial sub level for an extra +1d6 ranged SA (at cost of -1d6 melee SA). Preferably Deep Halfling, because rogues without darkvision are sad rogues. Definitely would want TWF tree, Crossbow Sniper, the usual archery feats (PBS, Precise, Rapid, and if you have the BAB, Imp. Precise), Craven, Woodland Archer... If doing hand crossbows, you'd want Hand Crossbow Focus, otherwise Rapid Reload.
EDIT: Can also dip Swordsage. 1 level + a feat or 2 levels and you get a stance for +2d6 SA. Better than waiting for 4 rogue levels.

[Gargravarr]

I'll probably post the build I have tomorrow. It's...uh...interesting I think. And I'd love to see what it's flaws are.

Ha, your build sounds a lot like the one I'm currently working on...:smallbiggrin:. Please do.



Iatjutsu Focus and Sneak Attack really seemed to be complimentary towards each other than not. In order to trigger IF, the subject is inherently susceptible to SA. With a Gnomish Quick Razor, the attack is fulfilled as per IF's rules. All it does is (nearly) double the amount of d6s I'm rolling.

Getting the opponent flat-footed for a full round isn't that easy. You have the Grease spell for once but most stuff only make the opponent flat-footed for one attack.

If you've got a high enough UMD consider wanding Distract assailant as well. Swift action to activate and full round flat-footed. Boost the wand level as much as you can though cause it's got a save DC.

ETA: Scratch that, I was thinking of spell restistance when I wrote this, Will DC would be 11.

Still, even a few IF dice added can make quite an impact, seeing as they bypass sneak attack immunity. A bit cheesy so probably shouldn't be abused, I'll see how much my DM can take :smallcool:

Also, for boosting IF, take an item familiar at level 3 or after. If you're leveling Rogue that's at the very least a +3 bonus per level (cumulative!) and since the IF skill check steps are so close together it boosts the dice amount quite quickly ;)



So, in a situation where I anticipate a fight, I'll probably be in the right spot with no problem. (At level 1 (ECL 2), my Hide skill is at 24).

Let me guess. Whisper Gnome + Dark Creature template + 18 Dex + 4 ranks? Sounds like it.


I think the really basic follow up question I have is...Where do I go to make a spreadsheet like this? Google?

Open Office or Excel I would think he meant ;)
But you could do a speadsheet with Google tools also.


It is DM dependant; but ask if you can make a (spiked) gauntlet with a wand chamber (justify it fluff wise as the wand bring inserted in a groove that runs along your forearm). It shouldn't interfere with your quick-razor.

I thought wand chambers only work for actual weapons? *scratches head*
If one could refluff a gauntlet on each hand so to carry 2 wands ready to be activated that'd be amazing.

ETA: Oh, I'm guessing spiked gauntlets count as weapons...

[Piggy Knowles]

Open Office or Excel I would think he meant ;)
But you could do a speadsheet with Google tools also.

I typically just use a Google spreadsheet, yes. You have a few more options with Excel, but I find that for something this simple, Google Drive is more than sufficient.