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ProfessorWoland
2013-07-06, 10:41 PM
So at the moment I am playing a Goliath rogue who specializes in grappling people to death (my DM allows me to do sneak attack damage within a grapple.) He grapples people, pins them, and proceeds to sneak attack them and murders their faces while they are pinned. Also he has armor spikes for additional grapple damage and the Earth's Embrace feat to help deal more damage in the grapple.

My DM is making some new grapple feats, because he agrees that the ones that exist are ridiculously few and far between and that a good deal of them are under-powered to the point of being handicaps rather than boons.

To this end, my DM is also reworking the Reaping Mauler prestige class from the Complete Warrior and he is also reworking the way that grapple works to some degree so that is not the horrible joke that it used to be.
Changes include, but are not limited to:

1) The saves for Sleeper Hold and the death-grapple ability are based off of my strength and not my wisdom, and they will no longer be super low.
2) The bonuses to grapple will not be pitiful.
3) He is adding a couple of new abilities.
4) He has done away with clever wrestling.
5) I won't lose the benefits of the class if I increase in size.
6) Other changes to make it a playable class instead of a unspeakably awful one.
7) He also let me buy off my level adjustment, so I can go to level 20.
8) He is also allowing me to deal sneak attack damage in a grapple without a feat.


At this point I have four classes I like for this;

1) Rogue - Lovely being huge Goliath who sneak attacks people in a grapple.

2) Reaping Mauler (Comp. Warrior) - Terrible without the rework, but my DM is fixing it. Can knock people unconscious with a grapple at third level(?) and kill them by pinning them for three rounds at level 5.
Reqs - BA +5, Improved Unarmed Strike, Tumble 5 ranks, Escape Artist 5 ranks

3) Black Blood Cultist (Champions of Ruin) - A rage-based grapple-centric 10-level prestige class that gives you many natural attacks while raging, at level 8 you deal damage as if you had hit with all of your natural attacks whenever you succeed on a grapple, and at level 10 you have the natural attacks even when not raging. Also at 5th level I believe they can coup de grace as a move action, which has great synergy with the Reaping Mauler's ability to knock people unconscious.
Reqs - Knowledge (nature) 2 ranks, Survival 8 ranks, Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Ability to rage.

4) Barbarian - Just to get Black Blood Cultist.


This is me so far


Level 6 Goliath Rogue
Str 20
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Earth's Embrace, Bear Hug (+3 grapple checks in pin)


I am not looking to branch out into any other classes, I know I like those four. My question is, what order should I go into them in and for how many levels.

My current idea is

Rogue 9 (for the sneak attack damage)
Reaping Mauler 5 (to max out the class)
Black Blood Cultist 10 (to max out the class)
Barbarian 1 (to qualify for Black Blood Cultist)

I don't know what order I should do that in or if another combination would do more damage/be more efficient.

Additionaly, my DM will allow me to rework my Goliath character to redistribute class levels and such, so I can restart this character and be level six, but in different classes if I so choose. Any suggestions on what order I should do this in, and what order to do it in so that I become an actual threat as quickly as possible?

I am also looking for item and graft suggestions for a grappler.

CyberThread
2013-07-07, 12:34 AM
all I can offer

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

Samalpetey
2013-07-07, 07:43 AM
Unless you're dead set on Reaping Mauler, I'd suggest dropping it. Growing in size can negate your class abilities, and the dcs for its special attacks are silly low, not to mention they target fortitude, which is the highest save of many creatures

Amphetryon
2013-07-07, 08:58 AM
1. Reaping Mauler is a trap. You need to be larger, the higher you get in ECL, in order to effectively Grapple increasingly large "appropriate CR" monsters, while Reaping Mauler requires Clever Wrestling, which only works if you're Medium or smaller.

2. Stormwrack has a way out of the trap: Leviathan Hunter, a short PrC that grants Clever Wrestling and specifically allows it to continue to work regardless of your size. Leviathan Hunter is a) practically required to make Reaping Mauler function at ALL, and b) generally a better Grappling PrC overall than Reaping Mauler in any event.

TmasterT
2013-07-07, 09:26 AM
why rogue?,
if you want to be a high damage grappler stay barbarain then take bear warrior.
take the spirit bear and bear totem ACF's for barbarain, max your str, you get improved grab from spirit bear totem, then you take multigrab and imp multigrab. thus you can grapple with multiple opponents without losing your dex or your threatened squares. you cant use sneak attack with grappling unless your going to go wild shape and take that feat, but i gaurentee keeping a high base attack, and lots of straight damage will be better then situational sneak attack damage.

ProfessorWoland
2013-07-08, 07:56 AM
Unless you're dead set on Reaping Mauler, I'd suggest dropping it. Growing in size can negate your class abilities, and the dcs for its special attacks are silly low, not to mention they target fortitude, which is the highest save of many creatures

I am dead set on Reaping Mauler, my DM is fixing it so it will no longer be terrible. Growing in size won't affect it in a negative way, the DCs will be higher for the special attacks, and maybe I can find a way to convince him to not make it a fortitude save, or at least find a feat that allows me to make it a will or reflex save instead.

ProfessorWoland
2013-07-08, 08:05 AM
1. Reaping Mauler is a trap. You need to be larger, the higher you get in ECL, in order to effectively Grapple increasingly large "appropriate CR" monsters, while Reaping Mauler requires Clever Wrestling, which only works if you're Medium or smaller.

2. Stormwrack has a way out of the trap: Leviathan Hunter, a short PrC that grants Clever Wrestling and specifically allows it to continue to work regardless of your size. Leviathan Hunter is a) practically required to make Reaping Mauler function at ALL, and b) generally a better Grappling PrC overall than Reaping Mauler in any event.

1. Reaping Mauler was a trap. I know how awful it is in the book, but it is being fixed by my DM. He is allowing Clever Wrestling to work regardless of size, and even made a new grapple feat a replacement requirement for it because I argued that it still wasn't that great.

2. Leviathan Hunter really only gives you tons of AC, a bonus on knowledge checks, immunity to fear (which is nice), and a pitiful bit of creature-specific damage. However, I'd need a favoured enemy in order to qualify for the PrC, which takes me father from my build than I want to go. It also does not offer any bonuses to grapple, just AC via the (admittedly quite lovely) trophy special feature and fear immunity.

ProfessorWoland
2013-07-08, 08:17 AM
why rogue?,
if you want to be a high damage grappler stay barbarain then take bear warrior.
take the spirit bear and bear totem ACF's for barbarain, max your str, you get improved grab from spirit bear totem, then you take multigrab and imp multigrab. thus you can grapple with multiple opponents without losing your dex or your threatened squares. you cant use sneak attack with grappling unless your going to go wild shape and take that feat, but i gaurentee keeping a high base attack, and lots of straight damage will be better then situational sneak attack damage.

Why rogue? I just really like the idea of being a non-sneaky crush-the-life-out-of-them rogue. Also my DM is allowing me to deal sneak attack damage in the grapple, so the damage is not situational, but works every time I attack them in a grapple, along with all of my natural weapons I plan to get, my armor spikes, cloak of quills/greater cloak of the salamander, etc. It may not be the most efficient, but I like this plan.

Amphetryon
2013-07-08, 08:20 AM
1. Reaping Mauler was a trap. I know how awful it is in the book, but it is being fixed by my DM. He is allowing Clever Wrestling to work regardless of size, and even made a new grapple feat a replacement requirement for it because I argued that it still wasn't that great.

2. Leviathan Hunter really only gives you tons of AC, a bonus on knowledge checks, immunity to fear (which is nice), and a pitiful bit of creature-specific damage. However, I'd need a favoured enemy in order to qualify for the PrC, which takes me father from my build than I want to go. It also does not offer any bonuses to grapple, just AC via the (admittedly quite lovely) trophy special feature and fear immunity.

Without your (edited in) houserule fixes to Grapple, Leviathan Hunter offers one of the only ways possible to use Clever Wrestling while larger than Medium size. That's a substantial benefit to a Grappler in most games that don't use your specific (edited in) houserules.

TmasterT
2013-07-08, 08:21 AM
at the very least you still need to take the spirit bear totem ACF for that barbarain level, Imp grab is by far the best grappling feat, and multigrab/imp multigrab will keep you from being totally pathetic in a fight with more then one baddie. without them as soon as you grab 1 guy your toast vs any other rogues standing anywhere within 30' of you.

ProfessorWoland
2013-07-08, 12:46 PM
at the very least you still need to take the spirit bear totem ACF for that barbarain level, Imp grab is by far the best grappling feat, and multigrab/imp multigrab will keep you from being totally pathetic in a fight with more then one baddie. without them as soon as you grab 1 guy your toast vs any other rogues standing anywhere within 30' of you.

Improved grab is actually not necessary, if I am not mistaken. It is much easier to hit something with a touch attack than with a normal attack, and once I am eight levels into Black Blood Cultist, I deal damage as if I had hit with all of my natural weapons with every successful grapple check. Thus being able to hit something with my armor spikes or my claws to initiate a grapple is actually not as good as just going for the touch attack to initiate it. It hits less often and the attack damage is not what matters, it's the grapple damage I care about.

As for the multigrab, I may go into that eventually.

As for rogues, I plan to put heavy fortification on my buckler, just for funsies.