Adding spells to ranger list

[Yogibear41]

Is their anyway to get, stone shape/soften earth and sand or other similar utility spells on the ranger spell list? Or is their an easy to access prestige class that has an accelerated access to said spells.

[Andezzar]

Extra Spell (CArc p. 79). You would be limited to levels 1-3 as a ranger though.

[NevinPL]

Is their anyway to get, stone shape/soften earth and sand or other similar utility spells on the ranger spell list?
Ask your god\DM\etc.

[nedz]

Well Stonelord (CWar p81) can get you these as SLAs, it doesn't advance Ranger spellcasting though. Requires Dwarf.

Divine Crusader (CDiv) and take the Earth domain.

There are several means of adding Cleric domains, Rangers get so few spells however that it's probably not worth it.

[DEMON]

Sword of the Arcane order (Champions of Valor) might help with Stone Shape, as it's a Soc/Wiz spell, too.

[JaronK]

If you use PrC Ranger, you still get the Ranger spells, but you'd also get another full list of spells (Druid or Cleric). You'll need Animal domain if you're entering as a Cleric. A DMM Persistent Divine Favor Cloistered Cleric with Zen Archery can make a pretty impressive Ranger that way.

JaronK

[Andezzar]

Sword of the Arcane order (Champions of Valor) might help with Stone Shape, as it's a Soc/Wiz spell, too.But you will most likely need wizard levels for that. If you have wizard levels, you can cast those spells anyways. Deciphering the spells from a borrowed spellbook will require soem investment in Spellcraft.

[eggynack]

But you will most likely need wizard levels for that. If you have wizard levels, you can cast those spells anyways. Deciphering the spells from a borrowed spellbook will require soem investment in Spellcraft.
Why would you need wizard levels? Transferring spells to your book might be a hassle, but it's nowhere near impossible. This seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.

[Andezzar]

Why would you need wizard levels? Transferring spells to your book might be a hassle, but it's nowhere near impossible. This seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.Because the ranger does not have wizard spells on his spell list. To prepare a wizard spell in a ranger slot the character must make the spellcraft check each and every time. A ranger cannot scribe spells into a spellbook. Spellcraft is not a class skill for the ranger and a DC of 15+spell level is not that easy.

Upon closer examination this feat does not work at all without wizard levels:

These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook
(if you have one) or from another character’s spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook; see Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks, page 178 of the Player’s Handbook, for details).


A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation
success is not assured
Sword of the arcane order does not confer knowledge of a single wizard spell so the ranger cannot take another's spellbook to prepare a spell he does not know. The ranger cannot meaningfully write such a spell into a spellbook (i.e. acquire knowledge of such a spell) either.

[Talya]

Because the ranger does not have wizard spells on his spell list. To prepare a wizard spell in a ranger slot the character must make the spellcraft check each and every time. A ranger cannot scribe spells into a spellbook. Spellcraft is not a class skill for the ranger and a DC of 15+spell level is not that easy.

Upon closer examination this feat does not work at all without wizard levels:



Sword of the arcane order does not confer knowledge of a single wizard spell so the ranger cannot take another's spellbook to prepare a spell he does not know. The ranger cannot meaningfully write such a spell into a spellbook (i.e. acquire knowledge of such a spell) either.

None of what you say is true. For one, the "spellbook," despite being a class feature, is not the exclusive province of classes that use them. Anyone can buy a spellbook, and anyone with spellcraft/knowledge arcana can scribe spells in one. But regardless, all of that is moot:

The Magical Training feat grants you a spellbook of your own. (Yes, it's Forgotten Realms only, but so is Sword of the Arcane Order. If you have one available, you likely have the other.)

[Darrin]

Domain Draught (3300 GP, MIC) of the Earth domain might work for 24 hours, although it's not clear from the text if you can prepare domain spells in your non-domain slots.

[Andezzar]

None of what you say is true. For one, the "spellbook," despite being a class feature, is not the exclusive province of classes that use them. Anyone can buy a spellbook, and anyone with spellcraft/knowledge arcana can scribe spells in one.I beg to differ:
15 + spell level Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.It does not say wizards' spells only, it says wizard only. So a non-wizard cannot write a spell into his spellbook, unless he has a class feature/other ability that says otherwise.


But regardless, all of that is moot:

The Magical Training feat grants you a spellbook of your own. (Yes, it's Forgotten Realms only, but so is Sword of the Arcane Order. If you have one available, you likely have the other.)Magical training does not give you the ability to write spells into that spellbook either.

[Talya]

By your reading, the moment a wizard takes a PrC, they can no longer write spells into their book. That is obviously not the RAW or intent of the feat.

[Andezzar]

By your reading, the moment a wizard takes a PrC, they can no longer write spells into their book. That is obviously not the RAW or intent of the feat.Huh? I did not say that. Adding other classes does not invalidate previously acquired features. Also a Wizard/other class does not cease to be a wizard.

[Talya]

Huh? I did not say that. Adding other classes does not invalidate previously acquired features. Also a Wizard/other class does not cease to be a wizard.

But they are no longer advancing as a wizard, so aren't getting the ability to scribe spells of higher level into their book. Oh, the PrC might be advancing caster level, but you're basing the ability to scribe spells on the class, not the caster level.

(note that someone who takes Magical Training has a minimum wizard/sorcerer caster level of 1, and can gain the entire spellbook class feature, in addition to everything that goes with it.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're not set on a race yet, the Kobold Ranger sub levels from RotD add on quite a number of earth-related spells in exchange for giving up some of the more wood-oriented spells.

[Andezzar]

But they are no longer advancing as a wizard, so aren't getting the ability to scribe spells of higher level into their book. Oh, the PrC might be advancing caster level, but you're basing the ability to scribe spells on the class, not the caster level. So what? Writing a certain spell does not require a minimum number of wizard levels AFAIK. So as long as you have one level of wizard you are a wizard and thus can write any 9th level spell you want into your spellbook (you also need INT 19+), if you manage the two Spellcraft checks (DC 29 for deciphering and DC 24 for learning). You won't be casting those for a long time though.


(note that someone who takes Magical Training has a minimum wizard/sorcerer caster level of 1, and can gain the entire spellbook class feature, in addition to everything that goes with it.)Got any proof for that? The description of the feat only say that he gains a spellbook with a couple of level 0 spells in it.
You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.Preparing is not equal to learning.

[Talya]

Got any proof for that? The description of the feat only say that he gains a spellbook with a couple of level 0 spells in it.
It also says they are treated as having a sorcerer or wizard level equal to their arcane caster level (minimum 1) for effects related to casting.


Preparing is not equal to learning.

You treat the spellbook as a class feature for the wizard. Use some consistency. If a spellbook is a class feature, then the feat Magical Training grants you that entire class feature, including everything that goes with it. If it is not a class feature, then all you need is the appropriate skill ranks to use it.

[Curmudgeon]

Upon closer examination this feat does not work at all without wizard levels
I think your "closer examination" missed something fairly obvious:
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it The feat says you can, and thus you can indeed prepare Wizard spells, whether you have Wizard levels or not.

[Andezzar]

I never questioned that you can prepare without wizard levels. The problem is that a character without wizard levels does not have any wizard spells to prepare. To write a spell into his spellbook which is a prerequisite for preparing a spell, the character needs to be a wizard. Even wizards cannot prepare spells they do not know from other people's spellbooks so the ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order can't either because they use borrowed spellbooks as wizards do. The feat simply does not give the ability to write spells into the spellbook and Magical Training does not either. I doubt that this is the intention of the rule but I can find nothing in them that gives the character that ability.

Magical Training gives a caster level but only for certain purposes:
Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.
Sword of the Arcane order only says this about caster level:
If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.So if you do not have wizard levels you do not have a caster level.

[Curmudgeon]

Sword of the Arcane order only says this about caster level:
So if you do not have wizard levels you do not have a caster level.
No, that's not the case at all; you merely have a sucky caster level.
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.

[Andezzar]

True. Having a caster level as a ranger does not enable one to write spells into spellbooks though.

[nedz]

No, that's not the case at all; you merely have a sucky caster level.

Practised Spellcaster can help here. Normally it's a bit pointless on a Ranger but it might be handy with SotAO ? You're still limited to 4th level spells though.

[Curmudgeon]

True. Having a caster level as a ranger does not enable one to write spells into spellbooks though.
No, you still need to succeed at Spellcraft checks for that. However, you do not need Wizard levels. Rules Compendium has generalized the PH arcane writings rules, substituting "Spellcasters who use spellbooks" for "Wizards"; see page 160.

[Talya]

Practised Spellcaster can help here. Normally it's a bit pointless on a Ranger but it might be handy with SotAO ? You're still limited to 4th level spells though.

Mystic Ranger + SotAO is a very good tier 1 through the first 10 levels of its career (and gives you spells of level 0-5). It's better yet if you take the wildshape ranger variant and a level of Master of Many Forms. It doesn't remain tier 1, but it never drops below a high three, either.

[Curmudgeon]

Mystic Ranger + SotAO is a very good tier 1 through the first 10 levels of its career (and gives you spells of level 0-5).
I would dispute that. The Ranger spell list is limited and of narrower scope than the Wizard spell list. Mystic Ranger adds a very short list of additional spells. Sword of the Arcane Order doesn't address the problems of either Ranger caster level or their lack of Spellcraft as a class skill, both of which limit the power of what Wizard spells the character can muster. (It's important to note that using any Wizard spells requires a separate hour for spell preparation daily.) Finally, the class is very MAD, needing INT for those Wizard spells as well as WIS for Ranger spells, plus the usual STR/DEX/CON of any martial class.

It's strictly worse than Sorcerer. That class has a full caster level and just one spellcasting stat, so it's always going to be better than Ranger + SotAO. Dragging the bottom of Tier 2, dropping into Tier 3 after level 9. (Even at level 9 the Mystic Ranger + Sword of the Arcane Order + Practiced Spellcaster twice is still only making CL 8 for their spells.)

[Talya]

Dragon Magazine 336, page 105:
"Class Skills: Spellcraft is a class skill for Mystic Rangers."

Its caster level is rather debated, as well.

Can you take practiced spellcaster twice, btw? Because that would give you a Caster Level of 8 even if your regular caster level is 0. Since regular rangers get 1/2 caster level, a level 9 ranger need only take practiced spellcaster once to hit 8 CL. A mystic ranger may already have full CL, depending on your DM. The lack of any mention in Dragon Magazine would lead me to believe caster level remains unchanged, but that also means that a mystic ranger has no caster level at all at the beginning of its career. A plausible argument has been made that as a separate class from ranger, if its caster level progression is unstated (like most casters are), it doesn't have the 1/2 caster level progression regular rangers have explicitly stated.

I suspect that that argument is incorrect, and that Paizo simply forgot to address the issue.

[Karnith]

Can you take practiced spellcaster twice, btw?
Yes, but the effects don't stack; you have to pick a different class each time you take the feat.

[CyberThread]

tell me a story, why do you want it?

[Curmudgeon]

Dragon Magazine 336, page 105:
"Class Skills: Spellcraft is a class skill for Mystic Rangers."
Good catch. I was going off my crib notes, and that wasn't included.


Can you take practiced spellcaster twice, btw?
Yes, but for different classes. The first, most obvious choice is for Ranger spellcasting. The other choice is dependent on how you interpret this line:
Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Sword of the Arcane Order specifically lets you prepare Wizard spells, rather than adding Wizard spells to your Ranger spell list. Thus, while you don't have any levels in Wizard, it's arguable that you possess Wizard as a spellcasting class.

[Andezzar]

No, you still need to succeed at Spellcraft checks for that. However, you do not need Wizard levels. Rules Compendium has generalized the PH arcane writings rules, substituting "Spellcasters who use spellbooks" for "Wizards"; see page 160.I did not look into the rules compendium. With that change the character with magical training can indeed write spells into his spellbook. The rules compendium however also imposes an important restriction:
Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.I don't see how magical training gives access to the whole sorcerer/wizard spell list. It merely gives access to 3 level 0 spells, which may be chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Sword of the arcane order does not expand the character's spell list either.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I did not look into the rules compendium. With that change the character with magical training can indeed write spells into his spellbook. The rules compendium however also imposes an important restriction:I don't see how magical training gives access to the whole sorcerer/wizard spell list. It merely gives access to 3 level 0 spells, which may be chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Sword of the arcane order does not expand the character's spell list either.

It doesn't expand the ranger's spell list. It explicitly lets you memorize Wizard spells,not add them to your list.

[Andezzar]

It doesn't expand the ranger's spell list. It explicitly lets you memorize Wizard spells,not add them to your list.Are you agreeing with me here? That's what I have been saying. Sword of the Arcane order just lets the character use a different set of spell slots for his wizard spells (that he may or may not have).

[nedz]

Mystic Ranger + SotAO is a very good tier 1 through the first 10 levels of its career (and gives you spells of level 0-5). It's better yet if you take the wildshape ranger variant and a level of Master of Many Forms. It doesn't remain tier 1, but it never drops below a high three, either.

Mystic Ranger does indeed resolve many of the issues, at least until about 10th level, but this is the first post in the thread to mention it. Mystic Ranger is not available in most games I suspect.