Kai Shout + The Siren?

[CyberThread]

Does Kai Shout gained through feat or class, qualify one for the siren, when it comes to an innate mind affecting sonic ability ?

[TuggyNE]

Feats and classes aren't innate abilities, so I'm gonna take a wild guess and go with no.

[Darrin]

As I recall, there are hardly any creatures that qualify for the Siren PrC:

Cloaker (MM).
Harpy (MM).
Desmodu (MMII).
Sapphire Dragon (MMII).
Gambol (MMII).
Phoenix (MMII).
Nycter (MMIII).
Death Giant (MMIII).
Glaistig (MMIII).
Defacer (MMIV).
Demonet Swarm (MMIV).
Banshrae (MMV).
Frostwind Virago (MMV).
Shadurakul (FF).
Crawling Head (FF).

(Okay, so that's more than I remembered... out of all those, I think only the Nycter is somewhat playable.)

There are a few that come close and might be handwave-able:

Grig (MM). Doesn't mention [sonic] or [mind-affecting] tags.
Satyr (MM). Doesn't mention [sonic].
Maenad (XPH). Unfortunately, energy ray [sonic] is not mind-affecting.
Faun (Deities & Demigods). Musical ability...?
Windghost (MMII). Windsong (Su) doesn't say mind-affecting, but does have a Will save.
Vril (Drow of the Underdark errata). Shriek attack is [sonic] but not mind-affecting. Feats in DotU add a daze effect, but this isn't listed as mind-affecting, either, and is a Fort save instead of Will save.

[CyberThread]

Feats and classes aren't innate abilities, so I'm gonna take a wild guess and go with no.


Well considering it is a kiai, and not a magical ability , I would argue innate :P It is a EX ability and not a SP or SU



aka.....


It may not be possible for every human being at birth, but it is a part of you that needs to be unlocked through hard work, but it is still innate and part of you either way.

[123456789blaaa]

Ghosts with the frightful moan special attack qualify too. That's the basis for the banshee build. Sadly, frightful moan is a sonic necromantic mind-affecting fear effect which means huge swathes of enemies will be immune :smallfrown:.

[CyberThread]

true but I think you can get that as a racial if you do it through ghostwalk

[Cog]

It may not be possible for every human being at birth, but it is a part of you that needs to be unlocked through hard work, but it is still innate and part of you either way.
That's not what "innate" means. It comes from the Latin for "inborn".

If you get a racial bonus feat that directly gives you an appropriate ability, sure, that should work.

[CyberThread]

Would a humans extra feat count as such you think?

[TuggyNE]

Well considering it is a kiai, and not a magical ability , I would argue innate :P It is a EX ability and not a SP or SU

Then they should just say "as an extraordinary ability".


It may not be possible for every human being at birth, but it is a part of you that needs to be unlocked through hard work, but it is still innate and part of you either way.

Given that Monks can unlock Su abilities through hard work and meditation, and Psionics is all about unlocking potential of the mind, this fails, hard.

No, as Cog said, it's only stuff you're literally born with.

Fakeedit: humans are not born with their extra feat; they merely learn it before they begin adventuring at level 1. (No human babies are born with, say, Power Attack or Spell Focus.)

[CyberThread]

Then they should just say "as an extraordinary ability".



Given that Monks can unlock Su abilities through hard work and meditation, and Psionics is all about unlocking potential of the mind, this fails, hard.

No, as Cog said, it's only stuff you're literally born with.

Fakeedit: humans are not born with their extra feat; they merely learn it before they begin adventuring at level 1. (No human babies are born with, say, Power Attack or Spell Focus.)


Except the entire bit that, it is EX and not SU. Otherwise, you run into issues of having monster class levels. Which when they introduced that system means that, you are no longer innate, but now suddenly you can gauge things on how they are worth per level.

A level one Minotaur , is still aMinotaur , yet they don't get keen sense until level 2, so if you had a PRC that said, you need innate abilities to smell, would a Minotaur still qualify?

[Vaz]

Welcome to the perils of alternate rule systems.

And savage species in general.

[TuggyNE]

Except the entire bit that, it is EX and not SU. Otherwise, you run into issues of having monster class levels. Which when they introduced that system means that, you are no longer innate, but now suddenly you can gauge things on how they are worth per level.

A level one Minotaur , is still aMinotaur , yet they don't get keen sense until level 2, so if you had a PRC that said, you need innate abilities to smell, would a Minotaur still qualify?

Yeah, the problem there is Savage Species variant rules.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Yeah, the problem there is Savage Species variant rules.

I wouldn't say that this is a problem. The intent of the monster classes (IIRC this is even explicitly stated in Savage Species) is to allow players who want to be a monster do so from lvl 1 and up. To me that would mean that once a character with the minotaur class gains keen senses it counts as an innate ability, since it's a part of that character's race, an inborn ability. It's only for balance reasons that it's locked until level 2.

[TuggyNE]

I wouldn't say that this is a problem. The intent of the monster classes (IIRC this is even explicitly stated in Savage Species) is to allow players who want to be a monster do so from lvl 1 and up. To me that would mean that once a character with the minotaur class gains keen senses it counts as an innate ability, since it's a part of that character's race, an inborn ability. It's only for balance reasons that it's locked until level 2.

Well, let's put it this way: Savage Species is problematic here because it doesn't clarify that monster class abilities gained after level 1 are innate.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Well, let's put it this way: Savage Species is problematic here because it doesn't clarify that monster class abilities gained after level 1 are innate.

Agreed. There's a lot of cool stuff in SS, but a lot of brokenness as well. It makes me sad.

[CyberThread]

I forgot to ask this, but unlike other things like some of the racial ones you see online, a player HAS to take all the savage species levels, they can't opt out early?

[Vaz]

That is correct, yes. SS requires all levels to be taken before multiclassing out.