Water Focused, Simple, Wis + Cha oriented Class?

[Blueiji]

Okay, so I've got a new player joining the group I'm DMing. She's never played D&D before and wants to play as a very specific sort of character concept, one which I'm not entirely sure how to accomplish.

I was hoping that the infinite wisdom of the playground might help illuminate some class or build that could fulfill all the requirements below.

1) Must have water-focused abilities. Something similar to what is accomplished by Waterbenders in the television show "Avatar the Last Airbender".

2) Must primarily focus on (or at least have a use for) either charisma or wisdom. It's actually okay if one or both of those isn't strictly needed for class features, but she doesn't want to dump either of them.

3) Must be simple to play. As I said, the new player is also very new to the game and wants an easy first experience. Note that the class doesn't need to be one that is easy to build, as I'll be helping with that; it just needs to be easy to play.

4) Must have something to do every turn. It's no fun to have no options, or be irrelevant in an encounter. This could be especially detrimental to a new player, who might get the idea that their class/the game is boring.

Homebrew is fine, and my play group collectively owns almost all of the 3.5e official material, so pretty much any material you suggest is something that could work.

I guess that's it. I really appreciate any help you could give me. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

How about shugenja from Complete Divine page 10? They're a charisma focused divine caster, and they specialize in one of the four elements to determine part of their spell list.

[Blueiji]

How about shugenja from Complete Divine page 10? They're a charisma focused divine caster, and they specialize in one of the four elements to determine part of their spell list.

That could work, I tend to try and stay away from Vancian casting for newer players. They either use up all their spells to quickly and have nothing to do for the rest of the day, or are too stingy with their spells and rarely end up casting.

However, it's still something I'll consider suggesting, as besides the issues with vancian casting it is a pretty perfect suggestion. Thanks.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm...

Hard question, if you want to avoid Vancian Casting. Because that's really where you want it. Even something as simple as a Cleric into Rimefire Witch, which would be pretty Waterbendertastic, and also Wis and Cha focused.

But probably your best bet is to do a hack job of the Warlock Class. If you feel comfortable with kitbashing the system you could turn a Warlock into a Waterbender pretty easily I imagine. Though you still won't be Wis/Cha based.

BUT... I usually don't suggest using kitbashed anything for newbies. It creates a barrier that prevents others from effectively helping them out when they have to explain particular oddities.

[eggynack]

That could work, I tend to try and stay away from Vancian casting for newer players. They either use up all their spells to quickly and have nothing to do for the rest of the day, or are too stingy with their spells and rarely end up casting.

However, it's still something I'll consider suggesting, as besides the issues with vancian casting it is a pretty perfect suggestion. Thanks.
You are welcome. Unfortunately, I don't think it's too possible to pick up a mentally focused class, that's based around water stuff, and doesn't involve casting of some kind, so that's about as close as you'll get within the confines of the actual game. I think I remember a homebrew waterbender class hanging around on this site, but I've thus far been unable to locate it. Shugenja are pretty simple as vancian casters go, so it might work out even if that class eludes my efforts.

[Matticussama]

Does it have to specifically be fluid water, or would the player be ok with ice abilities seeing as ice is just frozen water? Because I feel that either a Sorcerer or a Druid could achieve the necessary feel with ease. With your help directing the player towards a decent spell selection, there are enough ice-based spells that it shouldn't be a problem to specialize in those.

If you're comfortable with it, you could also let the player change the fluff of some of the standard spells to be more aquatic. Entangle doesn't produce vines, but rather causes frost to grow over the people's feet which traps them unless they can get away. Grease doesn't actually produce a slippery grease, but rather temporarily coats an area with super slippery water which forces them to make their balance checks. Fire spells are just the player hurling super-heated water at an enemy: produce flame hurls scolding hot water at a single target, fireball is a ball of superheated water exploding outward, etc.

Furthermore, you could easily mod any of the elemental reserve feats (Acidic Splatter, Fiery Burst, etc) to do something similar to give the player an at-will "water bending" attack as shown in the shows.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, first thing that comes to mind is a Crusader or Swordsage and refluffing some abilities and maybe adjusting to add Lay on Hands or something. Hmm.

[nedz]

Cleric with a combination of these domains
Blackwater (Stormwrack 109), Cold (Spell Compendium 271), Ocean (Spell Compendium 277), Storm (Spell Compendium 280), Water (Player's Handbook 189)

Perhaps use the Spontaneous casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) ACF so that they are always available.

Alternatively just build a Sorcerer.

[Lord Haart]

If light houseruling is okay or you start at level 5 or higher, then DFA fits the water theme (but not the wis+cha primary stat requirement; on the other hand, that's a darn specific requirement that Shugenja fits only by chance, and i see no real reason to not get big numbers in those stats if they're needed for RP regardless of whether there are class abilities working off them). In first case, you change basic breath damage type to psysical/cold/acid and with Entangling Exhalation she's set up; in second, she'll never have to use basic breath by switching between Entangling Exhalation'd frost breath and slow breath. Very newbie-friendly class without vancian casting goes as a bonus.

[Douglas]

Does it have to specifically be fluid water, or would the player be ok with ice abilities seeing as ice is just frozen water? Because I feel that either a Sorcerer or a Druid could achieve the necessary feel with ease. With your help directing the player towards a decent spell selection, there are enough ice-based spells that it shouldn't be a problem to specialize in those.
I imagine ice stuff should be fine, as the TV-show "waterbending" that is the inspiration for this concept includes quite a bit of on-screen manipulation of ice and freezing water into ice.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would recommend Catalouges of Enlightenment for the water domain at 6th level or so. Having a few minions made of water enhances the water feel of any class. It also helps the player feel like they always have something to do as they have minions that can be controlled all day.

Also, if you want to involve some d20 from outside 3 cannon, you can just play waterbender (https://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/bending-version2.0), yahknow from avatar.

[Madara]

While a bit daunting at first, the variety of options is at a pick your own pace, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68630)

[Mirakk]

My wife wanted to play an air bender once, so I revised the shugenja class spell list considerably to allow more elemental type spells for each of the elements.

Instead of more illusion-esque things for air, for instance, I chose actual wind spells, and lightning effects.

Water was actual ice and water manipulation. I kept healing since it was consistent with Avatar.

Fire is self explanatory.

Earth I didn't populate a list for, since it was her banned element. You'd be on your own there, but it wouldn't be difficult at all.


The result was a much more active type of elemental caster. She wound up taking Energy Substitution, and going into Elemental Savant. Pretty cool stuff.


I still have the spell list, completed up to level 5 spells, if you'd like it. Just let me know.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine yet.

1. Wisdom/Charisma based caster, with several Charisma-based abilities (Wild Empathy, Chastise Spirits, Spirit Form, Exorcism).

2. Spontaneous caster, but more forgiving than most spontaneous casters because you can "reset" your spells known each day. (I typically don't like spontaneous casters for new players, because even though the casting mechanic is simpler, one wrong spell choice can have a really big impact for a long time.)

3. A wide variety of abilities that are interesting but not game-breaking.

4. A huge number of water spells to choose from, with choices at every level, including...


Create Water (0)
Animate Water (1)
Cloudburst (1)
Pressure Sphere (2)
Swim (2)
Geyser (3)
Control Currents (4)
Control Water (4)
Swim, Mass (4)
Wake Trailing (4)
Wall of Water (4)
Blackwater Tentacle (5)
Rushing Waters (5)
Curse of Spilt Water (6)
Drown (6)
Extract Water Elemental (6)
Mudslide (6)
Tidal Surge (6)
Control Weather (7)
Depthsurge (8)
Flashflood (8)
Maelstrom (8)
Red Tide (8)
Drown, Mass (9)
Tsunami (9)


...not to mention using the SNA spells to nab water elementals.

[Waddacku]

Martial adept using Desert Wind houseruled to water/cold instead of fire.

[The Trickster]

Maybe a Wu-jen, house ruled to use wisdom as a primary casting stat instead on intelligence?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wasn't there a project at some point to build casters in the ToB style? I'm sure there were some water/ice disciplines from there.

[Kuulvheysoon]

While a bit daunting at first, the variety of options is at a pick your own pace, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68630)

Nicely done, Madara, that was my first instinct to link to as well.


My wife wanted to play an air bender once, so I revised the shugenja class spell list considerably to allow more elemental type spells for each of the elements.

Instead of more illusion-esque things for air, for instance, I chose actual wind spells, and lightning effects.

Water was actual ice and water manipulation. I kept healing since it was consistent with Avatar.

Fire is self explanatory.

Earth I didn't populate a list for, since it was her banned element. You'd be on your own there, but it wouldn't be difficult at all.


The result was a much more active type of elemental caster. She wound up taking Energy Substitution, and going into Elemental Savant. Pretty cool stuff.


I still have the spell list, completed up to level 5 spells, if you'd like it. Just let me know.

I'd actually like to see that - it sounds interesting. Is it any more effective than a regular Shugenja?


I'm surprised no one has mentioned Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine yet.

1. Wisdom/Charisma based caster, with several Charisma-based abilities (Wild Empathy, Chastise Spirits, Spirit Form, Exorcism).

2. Spontaneous caster, but more forgiving than most spontaneous casters because you can "reset" your spells known each day. (I typically don't like spontaneous casters for new players, because even though the casting mechanic is simpler, one wrong spell choice can have a really big impact for a long time.)

3. A wide variety of abilities that are interesting but not game-breaking.

4. A huge number of water spells to choose from, with choices at every level, including...


Create Water (0)
Animate Water (1)
Cloudburst (1)
Pressure Sphere (2)
Swim (2)
Geyser (3)
Control Currents (4)
Control Water (4)
Swim, Mass (4)
Wake Trailing (4)
Wall of Water (4)
Blackwater Tentacle (5)
Rushing Waters (5)
Curse of Spilt Water (6)
Drown (6)
Extract Water Elemental (6)
Mudslide (6)
Tidal Surge (6)
Control Weather (7)
Depthsurge (8)
Flashflood (8)
Maelstrom (8)
Red Tide (8)
Drown, Mass (9)
Tsunami (9)


...not to mention using the SNA spells to nab water elementals.

In my opinion, if you're sticking to Official ContentTM, then Piggy's got the right idea here.

[Feralventas]

The Pyrokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) has several variants and variations listed to allow it to function with sound, lightning, acid, and cold effects right there.

For the purposes of water, here's what I'd advise.

Ask permission to start off with 3 levels of Pathfinder's Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/flowing-monk) to get a feel for the motion and martial side of the water bender. 3rd level lets you also take the Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat) feat so that your unarmed damage continues to grow. Add in Superior Unarmed Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/superior-unarmed-strike--2844/) to make sure you're hitting plenty hard.

After 3rd level, take two levels in Swordsage, probably unnarmed, unarmored variant with Setting Sun maneuvers as the focus.

Adjust the requirements to
Any Neutral Alignment
8 ranks in Concentration.
2 ranks in Knowledge Nature.
1 rank in either Perform (Dance) or Balance.
Special: Must spend a day meditating by a large body of water.

Now then, for the actual features, switch the damage from Fire energy type to Bludgeoning.

Fire lash: Water lash now.
Fire Adaptation feature from Fire Resistance to Evasion, call it Flowing Resolve.
Hand Afire: Flowing Hand.
Bolt of Fire: Bolt of water.
Weapon Afire: Flowing weapon.
Nimbus: Adjust the stat-boost to Wisdom instead of Cha.
Fear No Fire: Improved Evasion, Greater Flowing Resolve.
Heat Death: Switch the damage to Bleed maybe, or keep bludgeoning. Fluff-wise it'd be the development of a little Blood bending.
Conflageration: Drawing up a bunch of water around you to bludgeon and bash anyone around you. Call it Tidal Rush.

In short.
Monk3 with the Flowing Monk variant if you can swing it. (Pathfinder)
Swordsage 2. (Tome of Battle)
Pyrokineticist with the adjustments above. (Expanded Psionics)

It sounds complicated, but the playstyle ends up being Really simple. Unarmed combat options pretty much across the board, and lots of features that let you add to it. If you want more utility stuff, consider dipping Ardent with the Life Mantle (Complete Psionic) for some healing options.

If you aren't allowed the PF stuff, pure Swordsage can work, or Ardent4/Swordsage1. Or any other class that has Concentration as a class skill, really, so the Shugenja or Wu Jen might fit your fancy.

[pwykersotz]

If the player needs the character to feel more "water-y" then don't forget about Elemental Grafts.

[Invader]

The Pyrokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) has several variants and variations listed to allow it to function with sound, lightning, acid, and cold effects right there.

For the purposes of water, here's what I'd advise.

Ask permission to start off with 3 levels of Pathfinder's Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/flowing-monk) to get a feel for the motion and martial side of the water bender. 3rd level lets you also take the Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat) feat so that your unarmed damage continues to grow. Add in Superior Unarmed Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/superior-unarmed-strike--2844/) to make sure you're hitting plenty hard.

After 3rd level, take two levels in Swordsage, probably unnarmed, unarmored variant with Setting Sun maneuvers as the focus.

Adjust the requirements to
Any Neutral Alignment
8 ranks in Concentration.
2 ranks in Knowledge Nature.
1 rank in either Perform (Dance) or Balance.
Special: Must spend a day meditating by a large body of water.

Now then, for the actual features, switch the damage from Fire energy type to Bludgeoning.

Fire lash: Water lash now.
Fire Adaptation feature from Fire Resistance to Evasion, call it Flowing Resolve.
Hand Afire: Flowing Hand.
Bolt of Fire: Bolt of water.
Weapon Afire: Flowing weapon.
Nimbus: Adjust the stat-boost to Wisdom instead of Cha.
Fear No Fire: Improved Evasion, Greater Flowing Resolve.
Heat Death: Switch the damage to Bleed maybe, or keep bludgeoning. Fluff-wise it'd be the development of a little Blood bending.
Conflageration: Drawing up a bunch of water around you to bludgeon and bash anyone around you. Call it Tidal Rush.

In short.
Monk3 with the Flowing Monk variant if you can swing it. (Pathfinder)
Swordsage 2. (Tome of Battle)
Pyrokineticist with the adjustments above. (Expanded Psionics)

It sounds complicated, but the playstyle ends up being Really simple. Unarmed combat options pretty much across the board, and lots of features that let you add to it. If you want more utility stuff, consider dipping Ardent with the Life Mantle (Complete Psionic) for some healing options.

If you aren't allowed the PF stuff, pure Swordsage can work, or Ardent4/Swordsage1. Or any other class that has Concentration as a class skill, really, so the Shugenja or Wu Jen might fit your fancy.

So your choice for a brand new player to play something simple is to have them play a monk, ToB, psionic character? :smallconfused:

[Grod_The_Giant]

So your choice for a brand new player to play something simple is to have them play a monk, ToB, psionic character? :smallconfused:
A few levels of monk can be pretty effective, and the pyrokineticist isn't a manifester.

[eggynack]

I thought it would be worthwhile to note that frostburn has the cryokineticist, which is already kinda like a water based pyrokineticist variant. It sucks horribly, even worse than the pyrokineticist, but it's a thing that exists. Even if it would be more reasonable to just flavor the pyrokineticist, it might be reasonable to let the cryokineticist inform the reflavoring.

[SamsDisciple]

There was at one point an entire d20 system dedicated to the Avatar world. I tried to pull up the site that I used but it seems to no longer be available but if you do a google search for avatar d20 there is still a google sites page for other versions of it. I use the Avatar the Last d20 Supplement and it worked great when i played an earth bender and I am seriously thinking about asking my DM about playing a water bender in an upcoming campaign. It is similar to a caster but instead of having a set # of times per day to bend the elements bending has become a skill based supernatural ability that you slowly learn to do more impressive feats and to do them more quickly. Compared to other classes it starts out stronger than most classes but unless you do some serious optimizing it becomes sub par at the end. As I said the web page I originally used no longer seems to be functioning but if you want I might be able to type up what I have

[Kuulvheysoon]

There was at one point an entire d20 system dedicated to the Avatar world. I tried to pull up the site that I used but it seems to no longer be available but if you do a google search for avatar d20 there is still a google sites page for other versions of it. I use the Avatar the Last d20 Supplement and it worked great when i played an earth bender and I am seriously thinking about asking my DM about playing a water bender in an upcoming campaign. It is similar to a caster but instead of having a set # of times per day to bend the elements bending has become a skill based supernatural ability that you slowly learn to do more impressive feats and to do them more quickly. Compared to other classes it starts out stronger than most classes but unless you do some serious optimizing it becomes sub par at the end. As I said the web page I originally used no longer seems to be functioning but if you want I might be able to type up what I have

I believe that you're looking for this site (https://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/home).

The design goals were to have them balanced with the core martial classes, so shooting for about T3.

[Gray Mage]

I'm not sure how easy it is to play, but if you're fine with homebrew, a quick google search lead me to this: Avatar d20 (http://pt.scribd.com/doc/58731271/2/Avatar-D20-and-Dungeons-and-Dragons-3-5).

Edit: Looking back, it seems to be the same as what Kuulvheysoon posted, but his link is better organized.

[Blueiji]

Hey, thanks for all the suggestions and replies. :smallsmile:

I talked to the player and presented the various ideas suggested here. She ended up liking the sound of just making a cold-focused dragonfire adept, as suggested by Lord Hart. She liked the dragon themed aspects of the class and found the unlimited use of abilities appealing.

I'll also be suggesting using the Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment feat to pick up the water domain ability, as suggested by Fouredged Sword.

Thanks again for all your help.

[SamsDisciple]

The avatar website you are referring to has a link to the one I am referring to, unfortunately that link no longer works. I tried the original one on that website and it does work but I felt that it needed more tweaks than I was willing to make. The link titled "Avatar the last d20 Supplement" is another version with the same general concept that I felt was done much better. I am not sure if this is the same PDF that I printed off years ago but here is a link I found to what I "think" is the right one.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36548716/Avatar-the-Last-d20-Supplement-MAIN-SOURCE

Edit: oops a little to late (this style is also unlimited abilities but gl with your campaign!)

[Gray Mage]

I'll also be suggesting using the Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment feat to pick up the water domain ability, as suggested by Fouredged Sword.


The Water Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#waterDomain) doesn't actually do that, it just lets you turn fire creatures and rebuke water creatures. He's probably thinking of Water Devotion, a feat from Complete Champion, that lets you summon a Water Elemental.

[Blueiji]

The Water Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#waterDomain) doesn't actually do that, it just lets you turn fire creatures and rebuke water creatures. He's probably thinking of Water Devotion, a feat from Complete Champion, that lets you summon a Water Elemental.

I'm fairly anyone capable of rebuking creatures with the water subtype would also be able to command them if they had at least twice the HD of the creature being rebuked.

[ArcturusV]

Still thinking Warlock might have been the better way to go. They can do their thing all day long. Which is good for newbies, prevents them from either going nova or dying with full spell slots. Could just change the Eldritch stuff to water/ice. Could even alter the Charm Invocation, or create a higher level version to mimick Dominate to do the Blood Bending.

[Drachasor]

And I was going to go through and work on fixing up the Swordsage to fit. Oh well.

[Blueiji]

Still thinking Warlock might have been the better way to go. They can do their thing all day long. Which is good for newbies, prevents them from either going nova or dying with full spell slots. Could just change the Eldritch stuff to water/ice. Could even alter the Charm Invocation, or create a higher level version to mimick Dominate to do the Blood Bending.

Dragonfire Adepts are very similar to Warlocks. They also get invocations.


And I was going to go through and work on fixing up the Swordsage to fit. Oh well.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570) might be of interest of you, it's a conversion of the Desert Wind discipline to the other elements. If you do end up making the conversion then it will help you get a jump-start.

[Drachasor]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67570) might be of interest of you, it's a conversion of the Desert Wind discipline to the other elements. If you do end up making the conversion then it will help you get a jump-start.

Hmm, interesting. I was considering having a feat or something to let them do Bludgeoning/Piercing damage (ice) or Cold Damage (freezing water) with what were fire-based maneuvers. Have the choice made when you ready the maneuver.