Beholder Mage

[Melcar]

Hi...

After reading some interesting post about powerbuilds, this PrC came up. I have read it, acknowledged its very nice "lean spells like a wizard cast as a sorcerer" ability, and was now just wondering how if possible a human could take this class?

Thanks!

[Karnith]

Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder is usually involved, combined with the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get an Antimagic Eye to put out.

[Matticussama]

While the "lean spells like a wizard cast as a sorcerer" ability is indeed quite nifty, the most powerful aspect of the class is the ability to break the action economy: a Beholder Mage can eventually cast 9 spells per round, one of each spell level, through their eye stalks. That is why it is generally considered so powerful, and not just its ability to cast all of its spells spontaneously.

[Drachasor]

Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder is usually involved, combined with the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get an Antimagic Eye to put out.

Often requires the DM to fail a DC 5 Will Save.

[Vultawk]

You'd also most likely have to be a beholder most of the time, but if the druid can be a bear 24/7, I don't see why the wizard can't be a floating racist nightmare.

[Spuddles]

It also has accelerated spellcasting- you can throw incantrix or cerebremancer on top of it you need to.

Erudite/beholder/cerebremancer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Polymorph Any Object + Assume Supernatural Ability + insanely permissive DM = your humanoid character can access the most broken PrC in the game.

[Melcar]

Shapechange, gives supernatural abilities of the chosen creature, so it would give alle the beholder supernatural abilities.. right? Also... it can be made persistent, so lasting al day. Or is there something wrong with my reasoning?

[Drachasor]

Shapechange, gives supernatural abilities of the chosen creature, so it would give alle the beholder supernatural abilities.. right? Also... it can be made persistent, so lasting al day. Or is there something wrong with my reasoning?

You don't get the spell-like abilities, but I don't recall the details of the Beholder Mage.

The point is that like Pun Pun, RAW or not no sane GM would allow it.

[137beth]

Often requires the DM to fail a DC 5 Will Save.

Eh, just keep asking until the DM rolls a natural 1. Unless he/she house-rules that natural ones aren't instant failures:smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

Shapechange, gives supernatural abilities of the chosen creature, so it would give alle the beholder supernatural abilities.. right? Also... it can be made persistent, so lasting al day. Or is there something wrong with my reasoning?

Depends entirely on your reading. Shapechange inherits from Polymorph, which allows you to take the form of a creature, not actually to become that creature, and Shapechange also includes the language "assume the form of any single nonunique creature". Polymorph Any Object, on the other hand, says

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.
Note that the "form" language isn't in there. The standard Theoretical Optimization argument is that this means that while all other Polymorph-type spells merely give you the form of a creature, thus not allowing you to qualify for PrCs that require that you be that creature, PaO drops that language and actually turns you into the creature in question.

I find all this very silly but there you go.

[Spuddles]

Shapechange, gives supernatural abilities of the chosen creature, so it would give alle the beholder supernatural abilities.. right? Also... it can be made persistent, so lasting al day. Or is there something wrong with my reasoning?

You have to wait until a level where you can cast Shapechange.

You can afford enough scrolls of PaO by level 5 or 6 to turn yourself into a beholder.

[Drachasor]

Eh, just keep asking until the DM rolls a natural 1. Unless he/she house-rules that natural ones aren't instant failures:smalltongue:

DMs, as deities, don't fail on a 1.

[Melcar]

Depends entirely on your reading. Shapechange inherits from Polymorph, which allows you to take the form of a creature, not actually to become that creature, and Shapechange also includes the language "assume the form of any single nonunique creature". Polymorph Any Object, on the other hand, says

Note that the "form" language isn't in there. The standard Theoretical Optimization argument is that this means that while all other Polymorph-type spells merely give you the form of a creature, thus not allowing you to qualify for PrCs that require that you be that creature, PaO drops that language and actually turns you into the creature in question.

I find all this very silly but there you go.

But it also says: You also gain the type of the new form (for example, dragon or magical beast) in place of your own.

I seem to remember something about a "polymorph" spell that even true seeing couldnt see through, because you actually became a diferent creature. Is this PAO or is there another? Or do I have a bad memory?

[Chronos]

Personally, I would argue that if you become another kind of creature for purpose of advancing in levels, then you become another kind of creature for purpose of advancing in levels. In other words, any creature capable of taking levels in (say) Beholder or Illithid Savant has a Beholder's or Illithid's level adjustment, in addition to all the other effects of taking that form. Which means that it's impossible for a PC in beholder form to gain even one more level, and the PC in illithid form will have to wait a really long time to gain another level.

But anyway, the Beholder Mage was never intended as a PC, or even as an enemy. It's a deliberate TPK for DMs who want something a little more creative than "rocks fall, everyone dies".

[Urpriest]

But it also says: You also gain the type of the new form (for example, dragon or magical beast) in place of your own.

I seem to remember something about a "polymorph" spell that even true seeing couldnt see through, because you actually became a diferent creature. Is this PAO or is there another? Or do I have a bad memory?

Beholder isn't a type, thought. Aberration is a type. You gain the type, that doesn't automatically make you a Beholder.

[Melcar]

So... if a level 25 human wizard/arch mage were to transform via persistent PAO or Shapechange to beholder, and then gain let’s say 100k experience points... advance 3 levels of beholder mage and change back to human would he still have his beholder mage spellcasting abilities?

And would the beholder mage run as a separate caster level or would it simply incorporate all his 25 levels of wizard and make him able to cast all his spells as a sorcerer?

[Urpriest]

So... if a level 25 human wizard/arch mage were to transform via persistent PAO or Shapechange to beholder, and then gain let’s say 100k experience points... advance 3 levels of beholder mage and change back to human would he still have his beholder mage spellcasting abilities?

And would the beholder mage run as a separate caster level or would it simply incorporate all his 25 levels of wizard and make him able to cast all his spells as a sorcerer?

There is no reason to expect Beholder Mage to stack with the 25 levels of Wizard any more than Cleric would.

Technically you don't lose the abilities of Prestige Classes when you lose their prerequisites unless they are from Complete Arcane or Complete Warrior so the abilities would stay.

[Karnith]

So... if a level 25 human wizard/arch mage were to transform via persistent PAO or Shapechange to beholder, and then gain let’s say 100k experience points... advance 3 levels of beholder mage and change back to human would he still have his beholder mage spellcasting abilities?
Well, yes, but he wouldn't be able to cast the Beholder Mage spells in human form, because Beholder Mage spells use the creature's ruined central eye as a focus, and movement of the spell-stalks as somatic components, neither of which are easily accomplished in human form.

Also, what Urpriest said.

[Melcar]

Well, yes, but he wouldn't be able to cast the Beholder Mage spells in human form, because Beholder Mage spells use the creature's ruined central eye as a focus, and movement of the spell-stalks as somatic components, neither of which are easily accomplished in human form.

Also, what Urpriest said.

I see your points...

But I have to ask, what if the wizard in question had automatic still and silent spells and eschew materials? Whould he not then be able to cast hes Beholder mage spells en human form?

[Gildedragon]

Somatic and verbal components can be covered by a human. The class just explains how the BM manages to use V & S components.

A human BM could harvest another beholder's central eye (or their own before morphing back), shrink object, store in a vial of quintessence or gentle repose, and use as focus.

Eschewing materials not work. All the inexpensive spells no longer have an M component and have an F (AM-eye) added

[Blackhawk748]

beholder mage was never meant for players, its for DMs who want to play on hard mode, as you need to be super optimized to even try to fight it

[Melcar]

So I'm guessing that it really isn’t worth the effort or what I mean to say is, that is not really that good for a human wizard. I thought when I first read it, that all of your standard wizard levels would be castable as a sorcerer while still retaining the ability to learn as a wizard. I thought beholder mage and wizard would stack somehow to give a level 35 (to use my example from earlier), wizard who would cast as a sorcerer. I think I will abandon this pursuit!