PF Occultist (Binder) Info Anywhere?

[Vortenger]

So, thanks to a random thread by one of you wonderful Plagrounders I found the Occultist class on the Pathfinder SRD: and update to the binder, complete with new vestiges (spirits, they're called now). Other than a few threads here on this site, I can't find any information regarding them.

Has anyone played one? Is there a guide out or reviews on the new spirits? Or because is it third party, no one wants to touch it? Seems like with porting some 3.5 vestiges over, it remains a versatile and fun class! Porting may not be necessa

[Vortenger]

A few of the new spirits are fantastic! Jayna Warlock, a 6th lvl spirit, lets you choose an elementalist school from the wizard class, from there you can spam spells of levels 1-4 (or 5 w/ a good roll)once per 5 levels. Some of the spells available are excellent. You can lay down a wall associated with the elementalist school chosen with options to spam such as wall of force, wall of thorns, wind wall, wall of stone...5d6 dmg touch attack and DR/resistance to finish it out ,because why not?

For someone looking for some casting or utility as an occultist, this is like Zcercyl-lite from 3.5

[Psyren]

I took a look through it and it seems pretty solid at first glance to me. The new vestiges ("spirits") are very interesting. A more in-depth analysis would have to wait until a handbook, and there would be a couple of hiccups in converting the 3.5 vestiges, but it would be doable. One part that would be tricky to convert would be the constellations, as that is the new mechanic governing which vestiges cannot be combined with others; as a result, porting over the 3.5 vestiges would benefit most from proper placement within that framework, rather than say shoving all of them into Dark Beyond or something. Other tricky conversion areas are the vestigial companions and the capstone empowerments.

Endzeitgeist has a nice review of it on the paizo product page here. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tyw)

As for the Occultist itself, the new vestiges created for it are enough to get it to the T3 sweet spot from what I can see. There aren't nearly as many of them as there are 3.5 vestiges but you get useful abilities from the constellations too. Making a good pact is harder as the check is now 1d20 + 1/2 binder level + Cha, but now there are specific things you can do (in each vestige's description) to get a bonus on the check instead of relying on circumstance bonuses from the DM.

[Vortenger]

Thanks, Psyren! As usual, well thought out and insightful.

I agree on standalone PF placing the Occultist at around tier 3. Also agreed on the difficulty of porting over older vestiges for the purposes of capstone empowerment. No idea what to do there.

I think the robust fluff of each vestige lends itself to finding an associated constellation pretty easy. Paimon was a rogue, Zcercyll hails from the dark beyond (being from the far realm), Halphax was an angel, so...angel constellation. Some are indeed ambiguous (Marchosias: rogue, skull, or shadow...) and some care would be needed not to overpopulate certain constellations, but not too bad, all in all.

Overall the power levels of vestiges vs. spirits seems to be roughly equal. I see no need for conversion there.

Are there any other Binder fans out there that would like to see some support for this from other posters? I'd be real curious to see what other Playgrounders think of individual spirits and some combos people may come up with using them. (a la Consolidated Binder's Handbook) You guys are more creative with combos than I.

[Vortenger]

Vesigial Companions conversion? No. Just no. A few of the new spirits lack that option. I take that as a sign. I would think that since several of the older vestiges do not follow the format for spirits, fewer conversions would be prudent. Also makes sure older options don't obviate new ones as some of the new spirits are based on their predecessors

[Psyren]

I agree on standalone PF placing the Occultist at around tier 3. Also agreed on the difficulty of porting over older vestiges for the purposes of capstone empowerment. No idea what to do there.

A good default Capstone Empowerment would be to shorten the cooldown of one of their major abilities to 4 rounds instead of 5. That would benefit just about any vestige, and you could then go through and come up with specific benefits for the others. This could then stack with Rapid Recovery, letting a charismatic binder enjoy 3-round cooldowns.

I wonder if Radiance House has a dedicated forum somewhere (like DSP does) where the community could come up with conversions.



I think the robust fluff of each vestige lends itself to finding an associated constellation pretty easy. Paimon was a rogue, Zcercyll hails from the dark beyond (being from the far realm), Halphax was an angel, so...angel constellation. Some are indeed ambiguous (Marchosias: rogue, skull, or shadow...) and some care would be needed not to overpopulate certain constellations, but not too bad, all in all.

I feel honestly that the constellations are a weak point of this version of pact magic. One of the cooler aspects of Binder fluff in 3.5, at least to me, was how unaligned and utterly mercenary all the vestiges were. Whether they were formerly good, bad, lawful, chaotic, some combination or none of the above in their previous lives, all of that ceased to matter to them once they became vestiges, and now they are just so desperate to feel again that they'll pact with any and everybody. Aligning them with one constellation above others is too much like giving them alignments themselves, especially since those constellations have moral connotations of their own.

Another problem is that there seems to be no Ignore Special Requirements-type feat in PMU, which would allow a sufficiently skilled binder to combine whatever spirits he wants regardless of interpersonal politics or constellation. I think a feat like that is necessary to preserve the amoral feel of pact magic.



Overall the power levels of vestiges vs. spirits seems to be roughly equal. I see no need for conversion there.

Agreed.



Are there any other Binder fans out there that would like to see some support for this from other posters? I'd be real curious to see what other Playgrounders think of individual spirits and some combos people may come up with using them. (a la Consolidated Binder's Handbook) You guys are more creative with combos than I.

I bought the book so I may end up doing a handbook once some other projects are out of the way.


Vesigial Companions conversion? No. Just no. A few of the new spirits lack that option. I take that as a sign. I would think that since several of the older vestiges do not follow the format for spirits, fewer conversions would be prudent. Also makes sure older options don't obviate new ones as some of the new spirits are based on their predecessors

I suppose that's fair, but some of the older ones grant you a companion anyway that could fit quite seamlessly with those rules (e.g. Malphas and Agares.) Still, I could see where it could be problematic for others though, like the gaze-attack ones (Geryon and Balam) as it would effectively double their damage each round.

[Grollub]

I think someone was working on a handbook, not sure who it was.. but i dont think it's done yet..

[Psyren]

I think someone was working on a handbook, not sure who it was.. but i dont think it's done yet..

That would be me, and in fact I've gone through all the spirits except two at this point, as well as the core class binding archetypes and constellations.

[Grollub]

That would be me, and in fact I've gone through all the spirits except two at this point, as well as the core class binding archetypes and constellations.

woot.. i can't wait to read it )

[Xuldarinar]

It looks good, so long as you don't mind using 3rd-party content. Pact Magic Unbound is an update of Secrets of Pact Magic, at least that is what I understand of it. That is not to say it is a bad thing, SoPM is a wonderful 3rd-party book, something anyone with the tome of magic and interest in pact magic should attain. I really should get my hands on a copy of PMU, and I wish there was a published update of the tome of magic to pathfinder…

Speaking of which. I have seen an "update" to PF for shadow magic, in the form of the 3rd-party book: "Book of Darkness: Guide to Shadow Magick", but it isn't worth it's price tag and its best elements were copied word for word from Descent of Shadows, a 3.5 homebrew for shadow magic.

[The Random NPC]

Is is posted anywhere? I'm going to be playing one soon, and I'd like to read your advice, as I respect your opinion.

[Psyren]

Is is posted anywhere? I'm going to be playing one soon, and I'd like to read your advice, as I respect your opinion.

Not ready for the public :smalltongue: but if you do have any questions I can help you here. And your experience would be invaluable as well since I have yet to run it through an actual game myself.

Also, thank you :smallredface:


It looks good, so long as you don't mind using 3rd-party content. Pact Magic Unbound is an update of Secrets of Pact Magic, at least that is what I understand of it. That is not to say it is a bad thing, SoPM is a wonderful 3rd-party book, something anyone with the tome of magic and interest in pact magic should attain. I really should get my hands on a copy of PMU, and I wish there was a published update of the tome of magic to pathfinder…

What's nice about PF is that the normal stigma of third-party is mitigated by open gaming. Third-party in D&D has had a bad reputation because it sneaks up on DMs, who don't have the benefit of a large community to critique the material before it can break their campaigns. That risk is greatly mitigated here, and you get the benefit of people (like me) saying "Yeah, I read it, and it's fun, all you have to watch out for are X, Y and Z."